Tip-In: Bobcats Out Execute Raptors Late Again in 97-91 Win
by Adam Francis on Dec 15, 2010 9:00 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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Sometimes there's not much of a need to write a recap for a game like this.
At times, all you need to do is scan through the reader comments, and you can put together a pretty good description of what went down the previous night.
Let's see:
Bargs was -15. Next worst Raptor was -5 (Kleiza).
by benjibopper on Dec 14, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Benching bargs would have gave us the win…. Come on triano
by untouchable_21 on Dec 14, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Or
Bayless
Bayless is pretty good actually. But he’s a 2. Being small doesn’t make you a point guard.
Ha, people sure are tough on the kid. Not many 2’s get 9 assists in a night. ;-) Give him a little time, he’ll settle in a little more and get his turnovers down a little.
by danielfarrell on Dec 14, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Or even
Little things
These are one of those games where I thought good coaching could have pulled out a win. Calling a time out before Charlotte extended it’s third quarter run would have been nice. What about JULIAN WRIGHT on Tyrus Thomas for a spell to maybe cool him a bit? He was basically taking the same shot from the same spot every chance he got and it worked. Run him off that spot with a savvy defender and maybe things are different. Is it me or does Jay rarely win these close ones.
Bargnani’s head wasn’t in the game and it will be interesting to see what he does against Noah tomorrow/tonight.
Honestly though, I’d rather be in the Raptors position than Charlotte’s. They must really be disappointed given they had playoff aspirations this year. That cupboard looks to be bare for the next little while unless they can turn Jackson and Wallace into promising youth.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
Amen on the coaching. I thought Triano did an awful job tonight. It’s bad enough having Kleiza on the floor at all, but to put him out there with Bargnani for alot of the second quarter and then again in the 4th, is amateurish.
It wasn’t even that Brown did anything to win the coaching matchup; it’s that Triano made decisions that lost it.
I’m calling it now: Kleiza and Bargnani will be this year’s Calderon-Jack-Turkoglu idiot lineup that Triano will keep trotting out there. Every time it’s been used, it’s been a defensive nightmare.
I'd concur on all accounts.
Last night Raptors' fans saw yet another game where "the little things" made the difference, and in the end, a team measuring pretty low on the talent scale couldn't overcome said "little things" in order to get the win, losing 97 to 91.
"Little things?"
Indeed.
What I'm referring to are events during the game that in isolation, probably shouldn't have made a huge difference but put together, on a team that struggles in various fashions, they become magnified and usually result in a loss.
Take Sonny Weems leading a 3 on 1 late in the game.
Instead of forcing the defender one way and dumping the ball off to one of his running mates for the easy hoop, he decided to take it all the way, only lost control of the ball and watched as it harmlessly sailed out of bounds.
Bobcats' ball.
Or our buddy Mr. Bargnani, who looked like his mind was in Charlottetown PEI, not Charlotte North Carolina, most of the night. He didn't have a great shooting night that's for sure, he was 4 of 14, but it was the rest of his game that drew the ire of fans. His 8 rebounds should have been about 12 as he out-worked repeatedly on the glass, he made some horrendous decisions (see team-high 4 turnovers), was a beautiful minus 15 on the night as mentioned above, and just didn't really look like he cared too much. The best example of this was him snaring an errant offensive rebound late in the game that placed him under the rim for what appeared to be an easy 2 points. Only for some strange reason he decided to fire the ball back out to the perimeter ala Reggie Evans...
....or perhaps ala Charles Oakley, as the pass was about two feet over Jerryd Bayless' head, and headed out of bounds.
You really could go on and on here with others such as Linas Kleiza, Jerryd Bayless, Leandro Barbosa and DeMar DeRozan each making some decisions that would cause one to scratch their heads.
It's frustrating no doubt, but in many ways it's to be expected with a young team, and a team that really doesn't know how to win. They'll have their nights like last Saturday's against Detroit where they'll look like world-beaters, but the bulk of matches will likely fall into last night's category; grind-it-out affairs that come down to making little plays like the ones described above.
And until the Raptors start making said plays, the wins just aren't going to be forthcoming on any sort of a regular basis.
Tonight's match against the Chicago Bulls is a good example of this.
The Bulls are starting to round into form as one of the top contenders in the East thanks to the return of Carlos Boozer. However star point guard Derrick Rose is day-to-day, and may not play this evening.
If he doesn't, it's another big break for a Toronto team that's faced numerous teams already this season that have been without one of their top players.
That doesn't mean an easy win though. To get the W, here are our 3 keys:
1. Control the paint. Last night was yet another match this year that saw the Toronto Raptors make one of the league's lesser big-men look like an All-Star. We've seen it earlier this season with the likes of Hilton Armstrong, and yesterday evening it was Nazr Mohammed who crushed Toronto's interior.
This doesn't all fall on Andrea Bargnani either. Sure, he got out-muscled on a number of occasions and allowed Nazr to get deep position, but Mohammed was actually Amir Johnson's cover and while a solid shot blocker, Amir struggles in one-on-one D situations at times.
This simply can't happen tonight. Joakim Noah alone has dominated Toronto's interior himself in the past, and add in Carlos Boozer and it's a recipe for disaster.
This goes for the other end of the court too.
The Cats outscored the Raps 58 to 34 in the paint last night and it was incredibly frustrating to see Andrea shooting jumper after jumper instead of using his size and touch in close to post-up the likes of Boris Diaw. Tonight he needs to be aggressive in this area from the tip.
2. Point guard play. It doesn't sound like Jose Calderon will be back tonight which means more Jerryd Bayless. In some ways this is a good thing (I thought Bayless individual defence last night was stellar, so if Rose plays...) but in others it's not. The team really missed Calderon's ability to control the tempo and get teammates involved late in the game as Bayless went into Mike James mode.
He's a young guard who's running a team alone for the first time really in his NBA career, and considering the only other option is Leandro Barbosa, you've gotta live with it. But regardless of Rose's status tonight, the Raps need much better decision-making in clutch situations and that falls right now on Mr. Bayless.
3. Wing play. Hmmm...I just realized my three "keys" essentially have now included every position on the Raptors...maybe not a good sign.
In any event, every night can't fall on Bargnani. The best in the league have rough nights (see Kobe missing all three of his free-throws on "fouled shooting a 3" situation yesterday evening) so others have to carry the weight.
This ain't happening.
Sonny Weems, DeMar DeRozan, Linas Kleiza, Leandro Barbosa...pick your poison.
For me, the improved play has to come from Weems and DeRozan though as Kleiza just isn't an effective option at present, and Leandro's always been a streaky option. Consistency from this spot on the floor is the name of the game and I want to start seeing that from Toronto's "young ones."
Take Weems.
He started off the game playing pretty well, hitting good open looks, not forcing the issue, and doing a solid job on D, even drawing a few charges.
But as the game went on, the suspect shooting came out, and the defense was nowhere to be found. Most egregious was completely falling asleep on a screen for Gerald Wallace, allowing him a wide open dunk in a tight game.
This can't happen.
Sure Wallace is a tough cover, but there's not excuse for plays like that.
DeMar wasn't much better, getting hung up on a screen that he should have seen coming on the very next play, allowing another easy Bobcats look.
Tonight I'm going to be watching these two almost extensively.
The Bulls have Luol Deng but beyond him, DeRozan and Weems shouldn't get their lunches handed to them by the likes of Ashton Kutcher...er Kyle Korver, and Ronnie Brewer. They at least have to play these guys to a draw or this one will be over early.
That goes for the whole team in fact as another bad first quarter against a team like Chicago is something the Raptors can ill afford.
It's one thing to crawl back against the Pistons, it's quite another to do it against a stingy Bulls team that can both get stops, and score the basketball with the best of them.
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I’m getting sick of watching Weems and Derozan jack up jumper after jumper.
Bayless is definatley a bright spot, he will get better at running the point.
Weems gets off rather lightly at the moment......seems to avoid a good bashing
by Canuck Exile on Dec 15, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Weems
That’s because he makes less than a million dollars. Once BC overpays him, he will get his fair share.
I personally am sick of him.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure he’ll get off lightly if he keeps playing like this. I called him out a few times in this post and it’s going to continue if he doesn’t start playing to his strengths.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 15, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
It's not as easy as it looks to just drive every time.
I think the wings are taking more of a bashing then they deserve. There offense doesn’t move the ball very well I’m not sure if that’s on triano or the players but a few times in that game everyone was just standing in the same spot passing it back and fourth until someone shot, more cuts, off ball screens, and just movement in general is what they need.
I found myself happy when Triano pulled Bargnani from the game in the third. It was immediately obvious that he was absolutely garbage out there and getting worse as the game went on. Triano should have just let him stay on the bench for the rest of the game.
I’m neither a Bargs basher or supporter. I want him to do well because he has the highest ceiling of all the players on the Raptors. The problem is, he rarely reaches it and today he absolutely tripped and took a header down the stairs.
Great comment and I find myself in a similar boat. I want him to do well, but he’s a lightning rod for criticism thanks to nights like this. I made the Kobe comment in the article but the difference is, after missing those 3 free throws, Bryant went into attack mode looking to affect the game in other ways.
That’s what we need to see more of from Bargs. He’s been better in this capacity this season, but last night was back to him just sorta standing around.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 15, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
(bargnani) … just didn’t really look like he cared too much
His non-chalance throughout the game was really noticable, refs blow a call, a couple shots don’t fall, he just checks out … shouldn’t happen…
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 15, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
don't want to sound complete insensitive here
but when doesn’t he have an excuse (atleast via fans)? I guess atleast this time it may be a valid one.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Bayless
he’s gonna to be great for us, and he’s still developing, he’s gotta be a point guard first if you know what i mean, im tired of him just taking it to the hoop every god damn play, and not pass!
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. Bayless excels at attacking and he should be encouraged to do just that and allow him to develop the passing aspect of his game naturally. Forcing him into Calderon junior will only stifle him and hurt his long term development. Considering the lack of anything even remotely resembling a star on this team, having an attacking PG is a blessing in disguise. In fact I lament that Calderon doesn’t attack the hoop nearly enough.
I like that Bayless is more of an attacking type, it’s a nice change of pace from Jose. The problem is with no Jose, it’s all attack at times.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 15, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Am I the only one who thinks Julian Wright can be as good as Tyrus Thomas? Dude’s got length, athleticism, smarts, and a ton of heart. Get him on the damn court, Jay.
It appears that Kleiza’s contract included a playing time clause of some sort because he hasn’t shown me anything positive that stands out.
It’s funny how the sentence above is being used as a joke but in reality, to save Colangelo’s face for giving Kleiza that contract, he’ll continue to get playing time. Disgusting.
I am on the Wright bandwagon and would love to see him get more minutes. If you put him out there with Johnson and Bargnani you have some balance across your front court and deficiencies of one(Bargnani’s defense, Wright’s jumpshot) can be offset by the strengths of the others.
Thoroughly Annoyed
What bugs me the most is the fact that we’ve seen this whole thing play out already. I’m STILL bitter at how Marco Belinelli was utilized during his one season here. You can honestly say he deserved at least 5 minutes of Derozan’s playing time and probably ALL of Hedo’s. You can already see he’s a perfectly good SG for NO.
Sorry to cry over spilled milk, but I liked the dude. So we trade him away for Julian Wright. At first thought, I was like, this could work…I always liked Wright back in his NCAA days. But it appears BC thought of the trade as simply trading two back of the rotation players. Obviously Hornets fans probably think they fleeced us in the deal, but this isnt a Humphries for Araujo type of deal. Wright can actually play basketball.
In the end, it turned out to be us misusing one player, trading him, and misusing the player we got back. Just an annoying sequence of events for a guy who likes what both guys bring/would have brought to the team. I actually don’t know where I’m going with this so I’ll stop.
Grr.
the problem with Belli
was that as soon as he hit one shot, he thought everything was going to fall regardless of how challenging the shot was. Not only that, he refused to make a simple pass to save his life. Not that he didn’t pass, but rather it had to be a no-look, or a behind the back etc.
He was a turnover or a wasted possession waiting to happen… I will say when he was on he was fantastic, but to often he tried to make the highlight reel when simple was all he needed.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not denying that
He certainly was erratic, but you rarely hear of a player glued to the bench because he tries too many highlight reel plays. That being said, I do see where you’re coming from. However, I still don’t see how he couldn’t have helped the team more than an inconsistent rookie and a fatass (Hedo) did.
You might want to have a look at Belli's game logs
It’s not so pretty after Nov 22 when the Hornets started losing and it’s gotten worse since December started:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/marco_belinelli/game_by_game_stats.html
Without actually seeing him play, judging by the game logs, he’s regressing to be the player we saw in Toronto. Brilliant at times, brutal at others, and absolutely maddening.
Totally agree
Belinelli played alright for a few weeks at the start of the season, but seriously – here are his averages on the season 11.7 pts, 1.9 rbs, 1.3 assists and 1.1 turnovers in 30 minutes. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. That’s pretty pedestrian!
Kleiza is a decent player, but like I’ve said before, he’s a horrendous fit on this team. He needs to be on a half-court style of team with an inside defensive presence to be most effective. Actually, Charlotte wouldn’t be a bad fit for him as the first wing off the bench.
It’s December 15th BC, Kleiza can be moved now. Make it happen!
I would love to see Julian Wright start. I do not think he is good enough to start long term, but why not on this team?
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 11:25 AM EST reply actions
Wright
He had his chance vs Cats 2:48 mins with 1 asssist and 2 turnovers, on poor passes then a good view from the bench. Defense, with 97 points allowed, the fewest in the last 6 games, was not the major problem, offense (40% FG/ 31% in the 2nd half) was, and is not something Wright can provide.
So after his fantastic performance in the previous game, he still has a leash that only extends to under 3 minutes while Bargnani, Weems, Kleiza and the like are free to suck for 25 mins+ ?
Don’t know about you, but I’d much rather watch him give his all on the defensive end even if he’s having a bad game offensively, since what he provides is something the team sorely lacks – tenacity on defence.
+1
Totally agree. Wright was bad for those 2+ minutes, but that was a joke. Kleiza been bad in damn near every game this year, and he still gets minutes.
And if you watched Raptors TV on Monday, Jay said that he has to find minutes for Wright, even acknowledging that he’s been the highest +/- player on the team for the 2 games previous. Then….3 minutes?
For all the talk about defense, the 3 guys in front of him don’t play a lick.
The sad thing is that now he won’t see the floor again for 3 weeks.
+2
it makes no sense to me… yeah he didn’t look great over those 2 minutes, but give the guy a chance to get into the flow of the game.
to Johnn19.. yeah that defense looks good in comparison to other recent games, but this was the Bobcats we are talking about. Perhaps the worst offensive team in the league. The didn’t even reach the 70 mark the game before.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Ba Hum bug
.
In a nutshell – 15 / 47 (.319) shooting by Bargs, Weems, Barbosa, and Kleiza … along with high turnovers, is what did the Raps in.
Had it not been for foul trouble with Amir & Ed Davis, Jay probably would’ve sat Andrea more, instead of his 27.5 minutes. He should’ve done the same with Weems (36.2 min). The problem JT faces, is choice. With Jose (and Peja) out, it’s either Weems or Kleiza at the SF position. That leaves Demar (with Barbosa as a minor back-up) to fill out the SG spot. None of these (mentioned) players scored 15 or more points. With Andrea out in la-la land, Jay’s options were slim. Raps need the Wings to pick it up, and be counted (as they are with other teams).
.
Bayless is certainly doing more than with his previous teams. His shooting has evolved (.454 this year), however, Jarryd still needs to concentrate on his PG skills – effective control while quarterbacking the team. I do believe, that if you have Jose in this game (with Bayless as back-up), Raps win this one.
.
I do not even like any of the rumoured wings out there that much, but with every game that I watch Sonny Weems and Kleiza play, I become more intrigued by the idea of adding any rumoured young wing, ie OJ Mayo or Andre Iguodala.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 11:41 AM EST reply actions
Moving Kleiza
.
With the style of play (and fast break points) that define the Raptors, Kleiza kinda seems lost out there. He may get it all together with the Raps, or we may find BC moves him. His contract is not cumbersome, and I could see interest out there. His lack of return on investment, will probably be dismissed as: “it’s the Raptors”.
.
Move Kleiza, add a solid defensive minded Starting SF (who’s probably being paid a premium – aka salary dump), while putting Sonny back on the Bench, and then see where this takes us. Demar could be backed-up by a combination of Weems & Barbosa – if he’s still with the team after the trade deadline. One step at a time is how I would prefer this development process be orchestrated.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 15, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Fast break points
Cats out scored Rap’s 12-2 in the 1st half, but Raps were ahead by 6 at the half, so there is lots of need for half court play also, as Raps are avg only 20 odd out of 100 odd PPG, in fast break.
Sonny (fast break player) 36 mins 9 pts, 4 rebounds, Kleiza (1/2 court player) 19 mins, 9 points 4 rebounds for the game.
Who had the more effective scoring game for his playing time, with the team struggling to score?
Fast Break points
.
According to the link below, Raps are 1st in fast break points. I’ve heard this a few times before, but never checked out any stats.
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game
.
Kleiza prods too much, while Weems can be the opposite at times – he needs to slow down a bit.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 15, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani, love him or hate him!
The truth is for the Rap’s to win he has to play well and score 20+ points (8wins), the only win he did not, he scored 18pts (1) win.
This was a TEAM loss (even though they allowed only 97 points) for the 1st time in 6 games, not sure if better defense,or lousey Bobcats, not down to only Andrea, who played poorly.
The TEAM shot 31% in second half, after 51% in 1st, for 40% game, 30% 3pt, 52% FT, 19 team turnovers, Bayless 4, Andrea 4, for the 2nd straight game ( learned nothing from Detroit win) had 13 shots blocked, and allowed Cats to shoot 52% for the game. It’s a MIRACLE they were tied witth 2 minutes to go.
With all those numbers, a surfire recipe for a loss, they still had a chance ( due to the Cats incompetence) untill the inexperience and decision making at PG finally showed up in a 2-8 final run to lose by 6. They may never have a better opportunity for a win on the road.
The truth is for the Rap’s to win he has to play well and score 20+ points (8wins), the only win he did not, he scored 18pts (1) win.
I think this myth has been addressed numerous times on the site. Bargnani averages almost 19 ppg in losses and his highest scoring game of the season (41 pts vs. the Knicks) was a loss. He’s had several games in the 22-28 point range that the Raptors have lost.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 15, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Take a shot at Weems for a change - blackhole on many thaings
by Canuck Exile on Dec 15, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Weems has arguably been worse than Bargnani on defence lately. His inability to go over (or even under) a screen is embarassingly bad. Witness Weems failing to get around the “massive” DJ Augustin with just under two minutes left, which allowed Gerald Wallace to drive and finish a wide open layup.
The difference, as was pointed out earlier, is that Weems makes less than a million dollars while Bargs makes10X what Sonny is pulling in.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 15, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Hang On
By that logic, if the team paid me twenty-five dollars a year, it would be okay for me to stink it up for 36 mins? I would still deserve any criticism I receive, if I’m playing bad basketball. Which I would be. Our interest shouldn’t be who gets us the best bang for our buck, cuz there are a million guys playing pick up ball that would play for the raptors for free.
Bargnani is a really bad defender. Having said that, if someone has even been “arguably” worse than him on defense, they deserve some criticism.
My main point is that this was definitely a team loss, as was pointed out in the recap. I don’t think disagree on that. I just don’t think Weems salary should get him a free pass, or even bring him less criticism
What if the mule didn't kick back?
Weems definitely deserves criticism — I agree with that 100%. But he hasn’t become the lightning rod like Bargs, in part, because of the difference in salaries and positioning of Bargs as the supposed “best player on the team” and “franchise player”.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 15, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
This is a problem
I’m agreeing with you more lately. Sigh.
Just kidding. But yes, the simple reason is that Bargnani has been labelled as “the player the team can rely on under all circumstances” by the management. Like it or not, we can all agree he is the most talented player on the team. When he stinks it up, it leaves a worse taste in your mouth because he’s supposed to do so much more. His contract is a reflection of that fact alone.
Personally
its a lot more than he is “supposed to do so much more”….
…. its that more often than not he is a liability when he is out there. There was a while there he could offset his poor D and rebounding by scoring efficiently, but even that is starting to disappear.
What his salary is, what the team ‘sees’ him as, how good he is ‘supposed’ to be are all irrelevant to me. He needs to play better defense… just OK defense, and then he is worth having out there. Until he is willing/able to do that, he needs to see the bench more than the floor.
Nights like last night should be ‘well Bargs shot was off’ not ‘he should have been glued to the bench’. Thats a serious problem… and there have been too many nights like that.
Not that I want to bring Bosh up… but I was never a fan. Thought his D sucked, thought the ball stuck with him, he was soft etc. But I can’t think of one time I thougth to myself, how is this guy getting playing time. Bargs on the other hand… I’m questioning it regularily.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I never thought Bosh was a good defender. I mean, I thought he was easily better than Bargnani… but who isn’t?
And then you read this:
In fact, by some comprehensive measures, the Heat have protected the basket better than any team in the NBA. According to Synergy video data, opponents are shooting a mind-boggling 37.2 percent around the basket this season. The league-average conversion rate? 45.8 percent. Only the Chicago Bulls (39.8 percent) come close to approaching Miami’s overpowering basket defense. Yeah, a team that starts Chris Bosh and Zydrunas Ilgauskas is leading the league in basket protection.
Meanwhile, the Raptors frontcourt “anchored” by Bargnani has continued to be soft as butter.
So what’s the deal?
Did Bosh suddenly take a giant leap forward as a defender this summer? Or was he a good defender all along who has been freed from being paired with one of the worst rebounding/help defending centres in the history of basketball?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 15, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t discount the shot blocking and defensive presence of Lebron and Dwayne Wade. They are not letting many people past for easy ones.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
It may help that James and Wade pay better perimater D than any Raptor last season, but I don’t think this is the entire story. Bosh is also a big part of the equation. Conversely, you can’t discount the inhuman burden Bosh had to cary with Bargnani as his front court mate last season. I remember many occasions over the last few seasons where Bosh would look at Bargnani after the umpteenth blown assignment or millionth time Bargnani allowed an oponent to grab an offensive rebound and he would just shake his head or roll his eyes. Remeber bak in Bargnani’s first or second season where Bosh cussed him out in Golden State for repeatedly getting punked on defense/rebounding. I think that was a culmination of frustration. After that, Bosh probably just gav up on him…
" After that, Bosh probably just gav up on him…"
how much trouble could that be…. what would then prevent Amir or Davis from giving up? Man I don’t want to believe thats true…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
“Or was he a good defender all along who has been freed from being paired with one of the worst rebounding/help defending centres in the history of basketball?”
I think thats part of it. I think Lebron and Wade help. I also wonder if the criticism of him to start the season went straight to his ego… and he’s made an effort to work a little harder.
I’ve also always though Big Z was a solid defender… not quick or athletic, but he plays (and is) tall. Standing right near the bucket and being 7’4" is real handy some times.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Andrea's scoring
Absolutley true, but the fact remains if he does not score 20 plus, which will happen to any scorer, there is no one else who has the ability to pick up the slack, and they have lost.
But then you have to explain the fact that the Raptors score more points per 100 possesions with Bargnani on the bench. The Bayless-DeRozan-Weems-Johnson-Davis lineup had no trouble scoring and building a lead when Bargnani went to the bench early in the game (and Charlotte still had their starters on the floor as well).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 15, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
in reality
this team is not short on scoring. It hasn’t been so far all season.
I know Bargnani is supposed to be the best scorer on the team, but there are plenty of guys out there that can fill the hoop. None may be big time bucket makers, but its not to much to expect 10+ points on any given night from guys 2-8. When one scores less than 10, another seems to put up 15.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I have wanted to deal Calderon for a few years now, but I believe his contract will make that next to impossible for a few years. So I am now on board with keeping him around. He is a great character guy and he manages the offense and all of the inexperienced players around him very well.
I like Barbosa and Bayless, but I think they offer some very similar skills. I think the addition of Bayless who is an emegring combo guard with a cheap contract makes the dealing of Barbosa much more likely.
In my opinion Bayless should get 20 minutes a night backing up Jose, and another 5 or 10 minutes at the 2 a night.
If Sonny Weems appeals to teams as a throw in, I would not think twice about including him in a trade. I like that DeRozan has a size advantage on him. If he can fill out a bit, and focus even more on getting to the rim, he will be a nice player in the league.
Almost everybody is on the same page with Kleiza. He has some decent skills and is not very expensive or old, but he can not run with our other players. Definitely deal him if we can.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 1:18 PM EST reply actions
Bad Coaching
This game was lost at the end of the first quarter. The Raps had a lineup on the floor of Bayless, Davis, Johnson, Derozan, and either Weems or Barbosa (I can’t remember who), and we were absolutely killing them. This is when we got that 13 point lead.
So, how did Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown adjust to get his team back in the game?
He did nothing
He didn’t have to
That’s because Jay Triano decided to sub in Bargnani and Kleiza at the same time. All of a sudden, our defense began to struggle and Charlotte, despite playing badly, was able to hang around.
Coaching 101: If someone isn’t stopping what you are doing, KEEP DOING IT!!!!!
Jay skipped that class I guess.
Well...
Except nobody in the NBA plays all 48 minutes, so you have to do some substitutions. The group you mention consists of 2 or 3 subs right there. If Jay had left them on, Johnson would eventually pick up some extra fouls and both he and Weems would have run out of gas by the end of the second quarter or later in the game.
The real problem was that Bargnani was bad last night on offense and defense and got progressively worse as the game went on.
Obviously, you can’t play them 48 minutes, but when you have a run, you milk it as long as you can. You do that by determining what was working (defense and transition), and then you sub in guys that can keep that up.
I know Bargnani has to come back in because we are short on bigs, but with Kleiza? The two paired kill a defensive unit, and did kill our run. Those two should never EVER be on the floor together unless it’s garbage time. A good coach would have been able to co-ordinate this.
Biggest need in my opinion after watching last night's game
is a big, tough, true center. When Bargs is in the game we’re big but soft and when he’s out we’re tougher but small. Davis, Johnson and Dorsey are all incredibly undersized to fill the center position when Bargs is out and when Bargs is in he’s still 2 soft to reall bang and rebound with real centers.
-Sammy Dalembert
-Hasheem Thabeet
-Jason Thompson
-Andris Biedrins
are all available if you read the rumor mill and I’d say we need to take a chance on 1 of them. My pick is Sammy D then Thabeet but we need another C or we’re gonna keep getitng scored on easily in the paint like last night.
I'd rather
find someone who will work hard to play beside Amir and Davis.. rather than ‘reward’ their (Amir and Davis’s) effort and growth by throwing them on the bench just to make up for Bargnani.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Not neccessarily
If we got a decent centre, the smart move would be to move Bargnani to the bench and let him play the utility forward/6th man role he is SUPPOSED to be playing.
that I'm Ok with that
although I would like to see, at some point anyways, Davis and Johnson starting.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Jason Thompson
is a finesse big, and he’s more of a PF than a C
I do not like the contract of Biedrins.
I do not think JThompson is strong or a defensive guy.
I would be intrigued by Dalembert and his expiring contract. Him for Barbosa and Evans works for me. Get him in and give him a look, then negotiate a deal if he is working out.
I have already endorsed taking a chance on Thabeet. Funny enough I did a couple of days before the rumours that they want to dump his salary broke.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 2:17 PM EST reply actions
Just how bad is Thabeet for them to be ushering him out like this
I’ve only seen him play for short spirts and couldn’t really gather anythng from his game. Can he play or can’t he> has anyone seen enough of him in the NBA to tell if he has upside. If we can use the TPE to get him wouldn’t that be a low risk move with potential high reward>>
I just wanna know if the guy can do the basics like box out, rebound, get early position on both ends of the floor, is he strong, does he play tough>>>
Who’s got the scouting report on this guy>
Saw him in summer league. He makes Adrea look like a go getter. Dude is gifted, however, very unmotivated.
He makes Adrea look like a go getter. Dude is gifted, however, very unmotivated.
That sounds like Darko Milicic up until a few weeks ago.
I doubt it would pan out, but I would definitely take a shot on Thabeet.
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 15, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
as a general rule
I think its best to avoid players on teams that are not that good that are:
1)not getting playing time
or
2)losing playing time
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Fair point for sure
But Thabeet is playing behind Marc Gasol, who IMO is a pretty good centre. Not that I am necessarily advocating for Thabeet…
Tearing it up in the D League
Physically gifted, no jumper, great rebounder and shot blocker.
On a side note
I thought Derozan played great last night, I’m hearing a lot of people put his name in proposed fantasy trades. The guy is only 21 years old, he’s a 6 foot 7 shooting guard, and jumps out of the roof. To me he seems like the future of this team and I really hope the raps don’t trade him anytime soon.
Interesting
The discussions on the this site generally center on criticizing a player. What seems to be behind these arguements is a fundamental philosophy of what is important in the game. A number of you think that primary focus is defense, no doubt spurred on by the old cliche “defense wins championships”. Those in that camp are so dedicated to that idea that nothing a player does on offense over comes this subjective criticizm – poor defense.
The opposite side of the arguement for me is the 50-50 arguement (my arguement) and that is that there are two equal parts to a game, offense and defense.
So for me, a players worth (excluding leadership) is the addition of these two.
The other part that is frustrating to me to read is these condemnations of players based solely on your subjective and often biased opions about defense. You accuse a player of not helping when in fact the truth is that a particular player did help a certain percentage of times but it is portraded as not having done so at all.
Many of you are so blatenedly biased about the value of defense and about certain players and with such determined and relentless effort, it’s amasing
the real question is
does a players offense out weigh their (in)ability to defend (or vice-versa). With the individual I assume you are talking about, it does not. Not that it CAN NOT, but rather so far has not. After 5 years, I see no reason why one would expect it would change. Don’t believe me?… check the stats, check the record, check the level of success. Those things are not subjective. Nor is seeing a guy stand there watching another player score, or a rebound going up, and said player doing nothing about it. Don’t want to believe what you see… check the stats… but both somehow seem to escape some individuals.
Although i do have a question. How and why is anyone ‘blatently biased’ about a certain player(s). I hear this all the time and I don’t understand, unless you think this is a race/nationality thing. In which case I personally think thats absolute nonesense.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 15, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to speak (type) for everyone on here, but I think that while it is 50/50, it’s important to point out that:
-You have to be skilled & athletic to be a good offensive player. Effort and IQ are also important but secondary.
-You have to have effort and IQ to be a good defensive player. Skill and athleticism are also important but secondary.
Most would agree that it’s alot easier to be a good defensive player than a good offensive player. Because of this, it is more-or-less expected. But you cannot win without good offensive players. The frustration from fans come when a good offensive player is a poor defensive player, because it consists mostly of IQ and effort; and anybody can do that. As a result, those players get majority of the scorn. It’s harder to blame a guy for not being very talented than it is to blame a guy for not giving the necessary effort.
On the great teams, the elite offensive players are also good defensive players. Unless you have overwhelming offensive talent, you can’t win without defense, and in a salary cap system, it’s damn near impossible to have overwhelming talent.
1) “the old cliche "defense wins championships".”
This is not a cliche, but an acurate history of what qualities championship teams poses. ALL of the NBA championship teams for the last 50 years have been good defensive and rebounding teams. All of them.
2) “Those in that camp are so dedicated to that idea that nothing a player does on offense over comes this subjective criticizm – poor defense.”
Players like Bargnani (notoriously poor defenders) give up so much to the oponent by not rebounding and playing defense (not retaining/getting possession of the ball) that their offense only mitigates the deficit their play creates. even when Bargnani scores 20 pts, he gives up more points through weak rebounding/defense. That is why he languishes at the bottom of the league from a Wins produced perspective – he does not contribute to winning. Also, this perspective (that Bagnani is a weak defender/rebounder) is not subjective. It is backed up by a MOUNTAIN of statistics and his own coaching staff labled him as “clueless” in regards to help defense last season. Then when Triano was asked earlier in this season if he improved over the summer he answered"NO!".
3) “You accuse a player of not helping when in fact the truth is that a particular player did help a certain percentage of times but it is portraded as not having done so at all.”
See above. I’ll add again that it’s not that they did not help a certain percentage, its that the “help” they provide offensively is outweighed by what they take away or give up as a result of the deficiencies in their games (defense/rebounding).
4) “Many of you are so blatenedly biased about the value of defense and about certain players and with such determined and relentless effort, it’s amasing”
Name one team that has won a championship or had sustained success without playing good defence. And if some of us are so biases, why do ALL the statistics and all the basketball writers, pundits and experts align with our position. Maybe it’s time to ask if maybe you have the bias?
Kleiza
This isn’t an I told you so (OK maybe it is…LOL) but I remeber in the summer when some folks were drooling with anticipation over the begining of the Kleiza era. the argument was basically “he was great in Europe last year and played great at the worlds”. My response at the time was basically "ya but despite what Leo Rautins and Colangelo keeps telling you – The Euro league is lightyears behind the NBA in regards to talent etc.. Also, so what Kleiza played well at the worlds… The US “C” team won that thing walking away with Lamar Freaking Odum starting at Centre and Luis Scola was a potential MVP for christ’s sake!!".
Well here we are. BC outsmarted everyone and signed a guy who was basically out of the league last year to a four year deal and he’s been boarderline terrible. Surprise, surprise. Another BC free agent signing that he’ll have to swallow his pride and trade.
What you have here is a failure to communicate
Ironically, I have criticized Bargs on a number of occasions. I see that pansy attitude at times but I have the mind set that somewhere in the world there is a coach that can change that. As a coach I would be so aggressive in demanding he get his thumb out of his mouth that it would border on violence. I also believe that he can be changed.
It is important to me and I have said it many times ,that he doesnot have the potentially of a superstar and so I disagree with you guys setting him up with thiese unrealistic expectations.
If a center fails to get 4 rebounds (that would be 4 below your acceptable standard what ever that might be)and to slide over and pick up a player 8 times (abitrary number) that does not in anyway translate to twenty points for the opposition. Even if there was a score on those 6 of those 8 drives, that’s 12 points. And rebounds do not automatically result in points at either end.
So again you over value individual defense while dismissing the 50% of the game which is "offense. If Bargs allows 8 poorly contested drives verses scoring 25 at the other end, he is a + in my books and I don’t give a damn about this foolish +/- crap that many of you like to hang your hat on..
What your missing
I’m not completely against your argument, and I still think Il Naga is the best player on that team. But scoring 25 points doesn’t mean he added 25 to what the score would have been if he didn’t score those points. If he didn’t shoot the ball someone else would have, maybe with a slightly less chance of succes but it’s not like if bargnani didn’t play the raps suddenly loose 25 ppg. Offensive rebounds are really like turnovers and if his check gets 4 or 5 tap ins or put backs that IS adding an extra 8-10 points to the opponents score.
“doesnot have the potentially of a superstar and so I disagree with you guys setting him up with thiese unrealistic expectations”
Its not a matter of him being a superstar its a matter of him playing adequate defense and rebounding. He plays a crucial position for that.
“he is a + in my books and I don’t give a damn about this foolish +/- crap that many of you like to hang your hat on..”
+/- isn’t always about the final value one gets at the end of the game. Its about context. Where is a players +/- vs his team? +/- vs the point differential? vs how well one did offensively? +/- over a period of time… etc etc. And I don’t think anyone ‘hangs their hat’ on it… but if you think its meaningless (like some do), thats just not true. Its just like any other stat, its not perfect, but that doesn’t mean its wrong. And it in part helps to quantify if a players offense is outperforming their D (or vice-versa)
I think Zach did a good job explaining where you erred in your philosophy of value in offense and defense. I’d also like to add its more than players just scoring, its making it difficult to score, making them score from the FT line (instead of layups), making them score by jumpshooting. When you start doing these things, your defense in the long run will be much better.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 16, 2010 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
Great discussion
My hockey buddies always say you only need to watch the last 5 minutes of a basketball game and you’ve seen it all. Now that’s not totally true but quite often it is. One of the reasons that I don’t buy into this idea that defense is more important than offense is because of what often happens in those last 5 minutes. Some player, usually a superstar but not allways, goes “off” in that last few minutes shooting 80 or 85 %. They score these deciding baskets over double or triple teams, it doesn’t matter. Unless the opposing team has a player to match this short high percentage scoring spurt, it’s game over. Offense decides the game.
In the old days you saw Bird and Jordon and magic do that for years and today you see Kobe or Wade or Peirce doing that.
Again I say over and over I did NOT say defense is not important, it is.
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All I gotta say
is the Raps win this game if Andrea stays on the bench……
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 14, 2010 10:25 PM EST reply actions