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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Tip-In: Sloppy Joes, Toronto beats Detroit 120-116

The Raptors needed a franchise record setting effort to pull out of their week-long tail spin.  Snapping their four game losing streak, the Raptors came back and beat the Pistons but Vicious D is still wary.

Star-divide

116, 124, 113, 123, and 116

These are the point totals scored by our opponents in the last five games since our Guy's Night Out a little over a week ago.

Does anyone miss Reggie Evans now?

Granted, the Raptors came up with a 120-116 victory against the lowly Detroit Pistons and there's a lot of positives that we'll get to.  But let's not forget. 

This is a Detroit team that ranks 28th in the NBA in points scored.

Twenty-eighth!

So how did Detroit come up with 116 points?  It was pretty simple.  For about three quarters, our hometown heroes simply kept coughing up the ball.  Without Jose Calderon or Reggie Evans, our starting core got extremely young and inexperienced, and thanks to that, no one could step up and be the "floor general".  I mean, how the Raptors managed to score at just under an 80% field goal percentage in the first quarter and still be behind by a point was just incredible to me. 

Then in the second quarter, the Pistons' offense got hot and the Raptors continued to create sloppy plays on top of their cooling shooting percentage.  All of this lead to a 19 point deficit at half time.  Guys like Ben Wallace and Greg Monroe had no business lighting up the Raptors the way they did, but here they were, out-hustling our boys and getting the garbage buckets that Evans undoubtedly would have corralled. 

The third quarter didn't bring a whole lot more hope for us fans.  In fact, I'm sure that like most of you, I found it so difficult to watch the Raptors struggle through what looked to be a 20-point blow out.  After all, Detroit was up by 25 at one point and the Raptors had given no indication that they could wrestle control back.

That was, until Jay Triano thought "the hell with it" and put on a group of guys who were older and bound to play tighter defense.

With Leandro Barbosa taking the point, Julian Wright and Linas Kleiza anchoring the wing positions, the Raptors started to gain confidence back in their step. Barbosa's steady hand at the point was welcome compared to Bayless's at times questionable decision making. 

The Brazillian Blur never forced the team and was a steadying veteran presence who played defense the way the Raptors needed him to; by buying into the team concept. For all the offensive ability of Bayless, he still fell short of having a positive impact on the team (31 pts, -4 +/-).

Julian Wright was a lengthy pest on defense who got the Raptors back valuable extra possessions that the Raptors gave up earlier.  And Linas Kleiza still turned the ball over too much for my tastes, but he played solid defense and made life difficult for the Pistons.

Add in Andrea Bargnani's now expected 20+ points and Amir Johnson's positive influence on the game (+15 +/-) and the Raptors did something few could imagine.

They won by playing solid defense.

In the fourth quarter, the Pistons couldn't get any traction and only managed to score 17 points allowing the Raptors to come back from a 25 point deficit. 

Yes, it was the biggest comeback in franchise history, but at the same time, the Raptors cannot continue down this road. 

Lost in the past week is the team that we saw in November.  November's team played aggressive defense and had a solid identity going in from game-to-game.  Now we're seeing a return to last year's league worst defense.  I'm seeing a lot more of a team that just refuses to gel together or do the hard things that make it possible for a "less talented" team to win.  The hustle plays and attention to defense are no longer there on a nightly basis. 

This is not a way to become a hungry team that will surprise their opponents and take them down thanks to superior team play. 

A lot of readers continue to ask me why I put so much emphasis on Reggie Evans and his importance.  Yes, I acknowledge that Reggie doesn't do anything for our offense and that his defense is "overly enthusiastic" at times. 

However, I outlined earlier in the summer that I thought "leadership" was going to be a huge part of the success of this year's team.  There's little doubt in my mind that Reggie's tough-as-nails attitude and tenacity were huge parts of building this team's identity in November. The way he covers for his teammates and gets those extra possessions all without making a peep about his lack of touches on the offense are sorely needed.  He does what he does in limited minutes and situations but the coaches think that much of him to place him in a position to win, night in, night out.

Now that's missing, there's no one to take up the reins. 

So until the Raptors can prove to me that they can find their defensive step without Reggie, I'll continue to lament our loss.  We've finally seen the Raptors get a quarter and a half of solid defense, but it's against one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA.  It's only six more weeks until Reggie's projected return, but if the Raptors can't find their step again it may be too late.

The question is do the Raptors have the will?

Here's hoping they do.

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PG Barbosa, SG Bayless, SF JWright, PF/C Andrea Bargnani, PF/C Amir Johnson

That line up should start next game to reward them for their efforts and results in the last game.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 12, 2010 8:15 AM EST reply actions  

I'm not sure you 'reward' effort

by changing 3/5ths of the starting lineup… but Wright should have definetely earned more minutes (pretty sure thats the 3rd time I’ve said that this year).

For everything Bayless did right in the 4th… he countered that by doing nearly everything wrong in the first 3 quarters he played. He made up for part of it with and helped the Raps win (and got bailed out by the refs on that final drive)…. but if Jose is back I don’t see him not starting. If Bayless is playing well when he subs in, leave him out there for some extended play.

Barbossa is getting his minutes anyways… he is the 6th man that shouldn’t change.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: I'm not sure you 'reward' effort
I’m not sure you ‘reward’ effort by changing 3/5ths of the starting lineup…

Technically, this would be 2/5th of the starting line up. I would not want to do this once Jose is fully healthy. It could be a nice way of transitioning him back in.

I am on board for having Weems and DeRozan play a lot of minutes this year, but having them have to earn, or at least feel like they have earned those minutes back would be good for their development.

As mentioned by dozens of posters, thousands of times, Julian Wright needs to get some playing time. I do not think he needs to be a starter in the long run, but let the kid play.

Y

ou should pay attention to results though.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 12, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

hmm

With the way im seing it in the past 3 games. Kleiza should replace Weems in the starting lineup and get more minutes. Wright should be used mostly when we need defence and when Barbosa is on the floor (they play well together). Amir is continuing to improve but he should stop getting fouled easily. Bayless was solid tonight.

by ZM15 on Dec 12, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Kleiza had one really good offensive game, but I hate seeing him and Andrea on the floor together. I actually think he should be playing as Andrea’s back up.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 12, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Really…

the main way I would use Kleiza is to keep an inside offensive threat while Bargs takes a breather…

Start Bargs (under the current roster) and bring Kleiza in to give him a breather…

Yes, it’s going "small ball", but at the same time I’ve watched the Raptors play Calderon, Barbosa, and Derozan at the same time so I know they aren’t opposed to the occasional small ball move…

I would use Kleiza in the rotation of:

Bayless, Barbosa, Weems, Kleiza, Johnson

This lets Kleiza post (which he does well) it keeps shooters (Bayless/Barbosa) he can kick out to and it keeps hustling/slashing players (Weems/Johnson) to make backdoor cuts and clean up misses…

But above all, I value him as a trade piece the most…

by Mikthaniel on Dec 10, 2010 11:41 AM PST

by Mikthaniel on Dec 12, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

not to down play

Wright or Barbossa because they were very influencial in that come back.

But I think Bargs earns alot of credit for his play in the 4th. I’m not going to sugar coat it (not like i do with Bargs anyways) but the first 3 quarters he was his usual useless self on D and on the glass…. then the 4th quarter came around.

He was moving his feet and arms, not getting out of position… scratch that.. looking to stay in position, looking to help (and actually doing it!), going for the rebounds regardless of who was around… hell I even saw him tear a rebound out of someone elses arms (I can’t remember who it was, and it may have even been a teammate.. but still I’ll take it). He looked like he wanted to own that paint and anyone who wanted to score or wanted that ball was gonna have to earn their pay cheque to do it…

… man what I would give to even get half of that from bargs every game.

This team can win more often than not if he is willing to give that 4th quarter effort every game, regardless of how his offense is playing out.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 8:44 AM EST reply actions  

One thing for sure

The discussions here always come back to Bargnani.

by raptball on Dec 12, 2010 8:48 AM EST reply actions  

It's tiresome and annoying

…and yet it’s inevitable. The easiest way for the Raptors to acquire an elite player is for their most talented guy to become one. I was prepared to finally write him off at the start of the season, but instead he has indisputably improved: offense, defense, rebounds, assists. He hasn’t improved enough, especially on defense, to become that elite player, and inconsistency is still an obvious problem.

But the fact that he has improved (after standing in place all last year) makes it seem possible that he could continue to get better. No-one else on the team has the potential to be as good as Bargnani could be this year, not Weems or DeRozan, not Davis or even Johnson. So we focus on Bargnani (and continue to lament his shortcomings) because he’s the best chance we’ve got at a winning team in the near future.

[Please nobody respond that it would be better to tank than have Bargnani get better. I’m tired of Tank Nation.]

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Dec 12, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Just a question...

But if you had to quantify the statement “he has improved”, how do you support the argument outside of the fact that Bargnani’s scoring average has increased (which can be directly related to the increase in field goal attempts)?

- His field goal and three-point percentages are basically the same
- Rebounding is down
- Shot blocking is down
- Turnovers are up significantly (obviously a side effect of being the #1 option)
- Raptors giving up anywhere between 113-124 points during the last stretch of games
- Raptors score more, defend better and grab a higher percentage of rebounds with Bargnani on the bench

I just want someone to break it down for me and support their argument with something other than “you’re a hater”.

Sure, it would be great to see Bargnani turn into the player that’s consistenly putting up 41-7-6 like he did against the Knicks. But that’s not going to happen. I think the best case scenario is 6th man on a good team, coming into the game to light it up offensively.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 12, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

agree

nothing has really improved other than the number of touches he gets.

It frustrates me to no end seeing him play like he did in the 4th quarter last night (and about once every two weeks), and knowing he can play decent D, can put in effort, can fight for rebounds… but seems to simply choose not to do it on a nightly basis. He’ll never be a Dwight Howard, but there is no reason he can’t be a Rasho on the back end.

There is absolutely nothing keeping him from putting up better numbers across the board and playing better defensively other than himself.

If he is unwilling to do that… ie. play like he did in the 4th rather than play like he did in the first 3 quarters… I don’t see how he can stay a starter in this league, and that team be relatively successful.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

“Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.”
- Albert Einstein (1879 – 1955)

by even flow on Dec 12, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

exactly how does that apply? What does Andrea do or not do that applies to that quote?

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he asked for it to be quantified with metrics did he not? the quote simply points out that metrics do not always matter when evaluating or drawing a conclusion about something.

Perhaps, qualify the statement “he has improved” was the way to go?

If i’m wrong about the writers meaning of ‘quantify’, that’s my bad, but i took it as the author wanted a measurable reference to prove the statement correct.

But if that is what he wants I can provide him a metric that shows Andrea is no longer inconsistent when it comes to back to backs? thats an improvement isn’t it?

by even flow on Dec 12, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

ok well pls

list the things that Andrea has done that cannot be ‘counted’ that have improved. Or the things that he does that can be ‘couned’ that don’t count.

All you are doing is trying to use philosophy to a real world application… yet it needs to be applied. It needs to be connected. Not just thrown out there to distract from the debate. He asked for backing with real world numbers… still waiting on those.

“But if that is what he wants I can provide him a metric that shows Andrea is no longer inconsistent when it comes to back to backs”
pls do… (I would avoid looking at the first 2 back to backs this year though… 35% shooting each, which then leaves you a giant sample size of 2)

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Patronize much?

Thank-you for your notes on how to conduct an argument.

Bargnani shooting percentage:

Oct 2010: 37%
Nov 2010: 45%
Dec 2010: 56%

Rebs per game

Oct 2010: 3.9
Nov 2010: 5.33
Dec 2010: 6.8

Continued improvement month-over-month in his two primary areas as a shooter and rebounder.shooter.

by raptor rabid on Dec 12, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

its not a matter of patronizing

its a matter of a reasonable argument or ‘request’ to an unverified statement, that is never answered… or answered with any evidence to back it up. Not really to much to ask I think.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 12, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

it IS a matter of patronizing

Did you read raptor rabid’s post at all? You asked for supporting facts and he provided them. Rather than trying to justify your condescending previous post why don’t you give the poster some credit for responding to your challenge.

by DW19 on Dec 14, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I definitely meant quanitfy, as you noted. I just find it hard to process an observation like “Bargnani has improved as a rebounder” when his minutes are exactly the same as last season yet his rebounding numbers are down. That’s a pretty easy thing to measure.

I think the word ‘improvement’ is being confused with ‘opportunity’. These are two different things.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 12, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey

DS, weren’t you among those saying that his production would plummet given he was living off the space created but out true superstar #4? so, no only his scoring has not plummeted, it has improved (not sure his number of attempts has but that not the point) and now you say it is “expected”? by who? not by you it seems.
Point is while it is legitimate criticizing, it is not doing it against a “moving bar” which is set at will just for the sake of criticizing.
like when your gf wants to complain with you and you prove her argument to be wrong she,, undeterred just start complaining about something else? (I am sure everybody here experience that once (or many times) in their lives :)) )

by renato on Dec 12, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, you bring up a great point. Last year, when Chris Bosh was out of the lineup, Bargnani’s numbers went down (instead of the increase that was expected by many). I definitely pointed that out on a number of occasions. So the fact that his production has not decreased this season with the absence of Bosh should be noted as a ‘win’.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 12, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

he has done betet than just "not decrease" his production

he has actually increased his average scoring by 5 (average scoring this season) on a team without any other consistent threat. Last season Chris had Andrea to fall back on (meaning teams had to focus on both) Andrea has nobody. This is not just a win (without ’ ’ ) it is a huge win. if this team had a 5 of the likes of Chandler or (even better) Bynum, most of the liability he produces on D would be masked and we would be on SF away from going deep into the play-offs. Interestingly enough Both Chandler and Bynum could be available and maybe some SF too, not necessarily from Philly.

by renato on Dec 13, 2010 3:50 AM EST up reply actions  

- Raptors score more, defend better and grab a higher percentage of rebounds with Bargnani on the bench

I’m still amazed that basketball statisticians are so uninterested in ‘quality of competition’ and ‘quality of teammate’ metrics. Individual performance metrics work fine for baseball, and maybe that’s where it’s coming from. Hockey people figured out a long time ago that unadjusted +/- is bunk. Basketball is a unique sport as well, but is it surprising that for the 8-10 minutes per game Bargnani sits down, the Raptors’ deep bench outscores the opposition’s bench?

His assists are up, his rebounds are up (since Evans was injured), his field% is about the same despite increased defensive attention and more shots, his free throws are significantly up due to improved aggression in his game.

You don’t have to like Bargnani to admit he’s doing better than he was last year. He was pretty lousy last year. This year it seems like he could possibly become a 25-7-3 guy (no-one is 41-7-6). If he can do that and add adequate defence, he will be a very good player. And, more to my original point, no-one else on the team looks at all likely to hit that level this season.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Dec 12, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

You also dont have to be a hater of Bargnani to note that his improvement is primarily an illusion of him being the focal point on offense. Granted he didn’t wilt offensively the way many (myself included) believed he might but his defense is still atrociously inconsistent and his rebounding numbers are ridiculously poor for a player his size (yes some of those are because he plays so much away from the basket on offense but that should only account for about 2 rebounds a game, not 4 or 5) and he shoots a poor percentage. Saying his numbers are up each month is disingenuous as October consisted of exactly 2 games (2 small a sample size) and December is only half way done. Only time will tell if he is actually showing measurable improvement or not.

by McGateway on Dec 15, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

There are zero healthy PGs on the roster

Bayless is a small SG, as is Barbosa.

Not that this is the only reason for horrible defense, but the 18 turnovers led to a bunch of easy baskets for the Pistons… hard to keep the opponents points and FG% down when you’re giving them breakaway dunks.

by B.C. on Dec 12, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah, but Barbosa has had a history of backing up Nash, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that he can play the point better than Bayless. As I’ve said, it’s better (IMHO) to have Barbosa be the backup PG unless the Raptors are insistent on developing Bayless. If it’s about winning, I’d much rather have Barbosa as a backup PG to free up minutes for Wright who continues to be a defensive monster.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 12, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you really believe that our roster is good enough to ignore development especially since last year when the team was allegedly trying to win they ran DD out for 20-25 minutes a game? Just saying.

by McGateway on Dec 15, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Bayless had 4 turnovers, but Barbosa only had 2. He is definitely not a long term solution at the point, but he seems more ready than Bayless at the moment. Playing them together for stretches of games seems to make sense.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 12, 2010 10:33 AM EST reply actions  

No one should be rewarded for last night, except Wright

We played 3 of the worst quarters possible.
Pistons reminded me of ourselves at times, with that 4th quarter collapse.

by Tinmann on Dec 12, 2010 11:19 AM EST reply actions  

Turnovers and some Julian Wright appreciation

The 2006/2007 Toronto Raptors were a low turnover team most nights and won a lot of their games because of this. I remember one game a couple of years back when injuries made it necessary for Anthony Parker to sub in at point guard and I don’t remember if they won or lost but the point total for their opponent was extremely high. If you go over the last 5 games, especially the last 3 I think you will find that the turnover numbers have been higher than at most points of the year, at least it feels that way. Once the Bayless lead starting unit becomes more familiar with each other the turnovers should decrease and the points against numbers should be more reasonable.

Why Julina Wright has not gotten more playing time this year is beyond me unless he’s been injured. If it took this long for Triano to realize that Wright could affect games from the wing similarly to how an engaged Amir impacts games from the PF position then I worry about this team ever maximizing its situation.

The Raptors have an opportunity to (perhaps for the first time ever) develop someone who could emerge as one of the better wing defenders in the league, like a Battier or younger Posey if they invest the time in Wright. Same age as Sonny so it’s not like he couldn’t benefit from the same opportunity Weems is getting.

I wondered if it was practice habits and then last game I heard Devlin mention how Wright is always out there before the game with Eric Hughes working on his game until he’s drenched.

To this I say WTF TRIANO???? Why wasn’t he playing?

Bargnani, with solid defenders around him who communicate well seems to be more engaged defensively. Defense is effort yes, but effective defense is about communication.

Bayless
Bargs/Alabi
Johnson/Davis
Wright
and a solid SG (with a reliable 3 pt shot)

Would be a nice, balanced complement if all of the pieces are invested in properly. You keep Barbosa for as long as he wants to be here because he really is a uniquely skilled individual who can make a difference against a lot of teams. Stockpiling assets is nice but sometimes you have to identify the assets you already have and make the necessary choices to allow them the room to grow for the maximum benefit of the team.

I really don’t know what to do about Weems/DeRozan. Whatever decision is made might be the difference between a rapid ascension to the truly competitive ranks or a perpetually frustrating march toward mediocrity.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 12, 2010 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

Stockpiling assets is nice but sometimes you have to identify the assets you already have and make the necessary choices to allow them the room to grow for the maximum benefit of the team.

A huge +1 on that. Julian Wright seems to be a positive contributor most of the time and the perfect complement to Bargnani at SF.

The first part of your post actually reads like Calderon appreciation. There’s a reason why advanced stats like Wages of Wins and PER are favourable towards Calderon despite his defensive shortcomings. There’s something to be said for efficient shooting, setting up your teammates and limiting the turnovers.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 12, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I was floored when i saw the final score this morning. I was getting sick to my stomach watching the first 3 quarters. The Raptors showed terrible executed and I was sure that the Pistons has that game locked. Talk about pulling a rabbit out of their hats. Still, the Raps should not make a habiut of falling behind like that. They’re not that good enough to allow teams a big lead like that. they were lucky with Detroit.

by Jeffrey Thompson on Dec 12, 2010 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

You guys are tough on Bayless

If a Derrick Rose or Tony Parker puts up 31 and 7 everyone says how great they are, esp if they do it on 12 shots. When Jerryd does it people say “he’s a small SG”.

Granted, don’t like the 4 TOs and I didn’t get to watch the game, just seems like something is off. He’s a score first PG like Parker and Rose, and his stats were insane last night.

by danielfarrell on Dec 12, 2010 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

Bayless

I agree that the pg position in the NBA is now a scoring position.

But a PG has to also run the offense and get his points out of the offense. Barbosa when he plays lead guard is a perfect example of a shoot first mentality that looks to pressure the defense then kick it. Low turn-overs and nothing is forced.

Bayless is sloppy and dangerous right now his turn-overs sunk the Raptors early in the game. IMO he will get better with more playing time.

by raptor rabid on Dec 12, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

not down on Bayless

just pointing out that turnovers lead to easy points — and that is why the Raps looked so bad for the first 3 quarters

If Bayless could get even close to Parker/Rose stats for Assists/Turnovers (both well over 2-to-1), we’d all be happy

Parker is averaging 7.1 Assists/Game and 2.5 Turnovers/Game (in 33 minutes/game)
Rose is averaging 8.1 Assists/Game and 3.7 Turnovers/Game (in 38 minutes/game)

Bayless is averaging 3.6 Assists/Game and 4.0 Turnovers/Game (in 21 minutes!!!)

Bayless needs to at least get to say 1.5 assists/turnovers before he can be put out there as a starting PG.

by B.C. on Dec 12, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

where are you getting your numbers on bayless from?
in 7 december games he’s averaging 4.6 assists and 1.6 turnovers in 24 minutes

overall he’s averaging 3.2 assists to 1.5 turnovers in 17 minutes this season

I don’t think he should be a starting pg at this point either… but where on earth are you getting your stats lol

What if the mule didn't kick back?

by sportsfan2 on Dec 13, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yahoo Sports - but I'im blind!

Apparently I was blind or drunk or both: I was quoting rebounds and assists as assists and turnovers!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4473

(one cloumn off)

by B.C. on Dec 13, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

His real numbers are right in line with Parker and Rose percentage wise. Backs up my point exactly. :-)

by danielfarrell on Dec 13, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

hahahaha

What if the mule didn't kick back?

by sportsfan2 on Dec 14, 2010 3:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Start Bayless, he will only improve with starters minutes. Caledron is a safe bet and will give you a decent performance every night but i’d rather have Bayless match up to the best guards in the league and learn the hard way. There are not many Pg’s in the nba who can have a bad game in 3 quarters and still put up 31pts and 7ast. He also showed he had clutch instincts.Offence is not the problem with this team, even with Calderon out they can still put up 100+ points. Its team defence and giving away easy points in the paint, if that can be improved on Raptors will be just fine.

by B-Rex(5) on Dec 12, 2010 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

Question

if in the quest for a SF (Or a C) you had to trade either Sonny or DD, who would you trade? (I believe more in Sonny than DD, but DD is going to be here longer if the Raps want him to, Weems is going to be a free agent (not sure whether restricted or not) at the end of the season.

by renato on Dec 13, 2010 4:23 AM EST reply actions  

I'd trade either...

regardless of who was ‘better’ or not… right now I’d trade both of their offensive games for a player who can defend… these guys just don’t have the size, strength or shown the defensive iq to really be keepers… and no, I don’t think julian wright is the answer…

by axl t on Dec 13, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d trade either, but would lean towards keeping Weems — I think he’d be a productive bench player.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 13, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

of course, the moment we trade derozan would be the moment he becomes vince carter 2.0

What if the mule didn't kick back?

by sportsfan2 on Dec 13, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

as would be our curse...

… to this day I am perversely obsessed with wanting to see Camby in a Raptors uniform again…

by Mikthaniel on Dec 13, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

ahahaha

and the day he joins us, he goes down with a career-ending issue

What if the mule didn't kick back?

by sportsfan2 on Dec 14, 2010 3:14 AM EST up reply actions  

If he is surviving in Portland the dude must be unbreakable ;-)

by danielfarrell on Dec 14, 2010 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

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