Tip-In: Learning Curve, Utah beats Toronto 125-108
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 4, 2010 8:30 AM EDT
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintIn game two of the four game swing, the Raptors faced a more seasoned, more talented, and more prepared Jazz team. The HQ's Vicious D looks at how Utah "educated" the Raptors and what the Raptors can take from their lessons.
Gather around.
Mr. Jerry Sloan is about to teach our young Raptors a lesson.
Yes, in the walloping the Raptors took last night against the Jazz, there was a lot to talk about. Toronto after all, got buried early by 19 points, came back in the second before letting things up before halftime, came back yet again in the third to make a game of it, before the Jazz put the Dinos completely away in the fourth.
While I was at work yesterday, before the game even got started, I was talking with a bunch of my co-workers about dreading to write the follow up to last night's Jazz game. The Jazz seemed to be the kind of team that would have no real problem taking apart the Raptors. After all, Utah had won 10 straight right? Well coached, having two very strong point guards, and an unselfish system that has been in place for many years, the Jazz are a team that play like the Raptors...well, only better and with more talent.
I mean, outside of Deron Williams, is there anyone on the Jazz team who is going to be an All Star?
Granted, guys like C.J. Miles and Al Jefferson may get some considerations, and AK47 and Paul Millsap are extremely solid in their roles, but the Jazz are a team who know how to play as a complete unit every night. They're a team with some pretty super-charged role-players and they're a team with a real system which has taken years to develop.
In that way, last night's game was a perfect example of what the Raptors have to look towards to get their wins.
For one, the Jazz forced nine steals, the same as the Raps, but they also turned the ball over less. To the Raptors, this was just killer as they need every extra possession they can get each game. They are a team that strives on aggression and forcing turnovers so they can use their speed and athleticism in open-court situations and steals are a pretty good indicator if a team is being aggressive on defense. After all, the Raptors are a team prone to dry spells in their O.
Which leads us to lesson two.
The Jazz showed what it really means to share the ball and get everyone involved. No one player on their team seemed to "stick" to the ball unlike our own players such as Leandro Barbosa, Andrea Bargnani, and Sonny Weems to name a few. In fact, most Raptors are guilty of this "lapse". It is almost as though our teams forget what got them back into the game in the first place. Yes, I do realize that it was guys like Bargnani and Weems who got on hot streaks to get us back on the scoreboard, but how they did it was in a team effort. Bargnani got rolling by posting up deep on Andrei Kirilenko in the 3rd, and Weems got to the line multiple times. However, both players also ended up killing our offensive flow by taking ill-advised jumpers later on, something that the Jazz managed to avoid.
And a lot of that has to do with Deron Williams.
With his draw-and-kick moves out to wide open 3-point shooters like C.J. Miles, timely back door cut passes to his teammates and some strong moves to the basket, Williams was a force who was two rebounds away from a triple double and a monster +23 for the night in the +/- category.
Now granted, I don't expect Jose Calderon or Jarrett Jack to be of the same caliber, but at the same time, it continues to underline the importance of having a strong point guard on a team where you don't have a heckuva lot of dominant players. DeMar DeRozan may bloom into that player one day if he keeps up with his growth, but for now, the pressure is on our point guards to dictate the tone and to get our players on the same page.
Speaking of DeRozan, his growth and continued work has been one of the highlights for me in this opening week. His commitment to drawing fouls and learning how to play effective defense has shown to me that he's trying his hardest to become that effective shooting guard that we need.
Nevertheless, it is his and the entire team's inconsistency which will be the most difficult issue to overcome. While playing against the bottom-feeders of the East gave our boys some confidence, this western road trip can easily go 0-4, especially considering the teams the Raps have yet to play. Yet, there's a lot that the Raptors can do towards showing that they're growing on this West Coast trip and will be stronger when they return to the ACC.
For one, they have to show that they're willing to play hard defense against tough opponents for more than a couple minutes a game. Allowing both the Kings and the Jazz to score well above 100 points is going to make it extremely hard for our Dinos to be competitive.
For another, the second unit has to figure out their role. Guys like Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems, and Leando Barbosa have to find themselves and show off the abilities that make them useful rotation players. Earlier, in pre-season, our secondary unit was often the unit which set the tone and pace when the starters were lagging. They were the team who got the crowd excited and pushed the tempo. Instead, that's just no longer the case (Amir played five minutes!) and our second unit has to rediscover themselves.
Overall, I'm not surprised that the Raptors are 0-2 on this West Coast swing so far.
Perhaps it's the pessimist within which led me to believe that the Raptors would have trouble out West, but regardless, my hope was that in spite of any struggles, the team would be able to keep growing as a unit in the face of tough adversity. You'd have to say that so far, we've had two very harsh lessons. Until the players themselves figure out what they have to do, Jay Triano will need to keep pressing the whole "fighter" identity to this team over and over. (And we might hear more fiery post-games like this...)
Because building habits and an identity is never easy.
But it's essential the team keeps developing one for not only later in this season, but in the years to come as new, young talent keeps being injected into the roster.
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I'll give Bargs credit
He didn’t look too bad last night.
Only point I want to make is that he can rebound when he wants to, and it didn’t affect his offense.
Bargs continues to be the lone bright spot on this team, last being maybe the best game he’s ever played in the NBA, great aggression, didn’t give up, great stat line for him. Ran out of gas in the fourth but glad to see he’s the least of our problems.
I would have disagreed with you up until last night. He played a very complete game.
It seemed as soon as the bench came in, there was a severe drop off in intensity, alot of off balance jumpers. I just hope Bargs can play like he did last night with some consistancy.
He is notorious for having a good game or two, then disappearing. I’ll hold my tongue for now.
They got beat by a much superior team, plain and simple.
Interesting guard play
Williams had 14 assists where Calderon and Jack had 7 between them. Williams also had the most rebounds for his team with 9. On top of that he adds 22 points. Pretty dominate performance although he did play 41 minutes.
That “loser” Bargnani was top scorer again but he only had 9 rebounds. Should get rid of him.
That't condescending
You can’t gripe about everyone giving bargs flak based on what you think he will do in the next game.
Up until last night he was non existent on the boards, “I told you so”, doesn’t apply to this situation. you are setting yourself up to get tarred if he doesn’t post 9 rpg from now on.
The frustrating thing is you see that number 9 and you say to yourself, ok, so he CAN do it, and yes, now the bar is right back up…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Agreed, his consistency is an issue, but everyone was talking as though he might average 2 rebounds for the season, which it was obvious he would not do.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 4, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
That’s what angers me: it’s not a lack of ability, it’s a lack of other things.
That said, Bargs did play much better in what I saw last night, he seems to actually be looking to post up, and when he does that his game is so much better.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 4, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
If the team can get that sort of play consistently, it really changes everything. I mean at face value, 28 and 9 are Dirk-esque numbers so that’s something you can build around.
Problem is, we’ve NEVER seen any sort of consistency from him so hard to think we’ll see it now this season…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 4, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
It will be interesting to see if Bargnani rises to the occasion against a very tough Lakers frontline of Gasol and Bynum(is Bynum in the lineup right now?)
They’re starting Odom right now, who is playing like an MVP. That Lakers team is nuts.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
You are jumping around Franchise (sort of)
What we have never seen is any consistency in feeding him with the ball. And this is an argument we (and I mean even you) made….. consistently. As you remember and as it is kind of aknowledged NOW even by the players (cowards if you ask me) the ball had to be fed to someone else who was otherwise complaining.
Now, I do buy almost all the arguments made here about rebounding and help D deficiencies but a trend is developing on how it is possible being a 20+ scorer (25 atm) without being a ball hog on offense.
a while ago (not sure you remember) I mentionned there should be a period in which #7 should need to get used to be considered as the top threat from opposing themese and then the jury would be out. So far he has been elite on O, in terms of production and efficiency.
In terms of D, using the usual DIrk comparaison, I would like to point out that Dirk is and has always been a
pylon on D but his deficiency has always been masked by playing with a big man in the middle. Now that not excuses #7 from being a pylon himself, but for example, how would this current Raptors team look with Chandler in the middle?
What Bargs still needs to figure out in the offense
The thing that I would like is to see Bargnani realize where his offense is going to come from and where everyone on this team is going to get wins from. It’s going to be from ball movement. And yes, he needs his touches, but he also has to get better at giving the ball up so he can get it back in better position, giving it up when he has no place to go, and giving it up to promote a passing/sharing mentality with the team.
And no, he’s not a unique person in this regard. There’s a lot of guys on this team that I feel need a good smack around.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 5, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
not sure I understand you
are you saying he is a ball hog?
No. I’m saying that he needs to realize defensive coverages and that ball movement is the key to him getting good and easy buckets.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 5, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
As I mentioned last night.. I think DD has taken a step forward, but more disappointingly, Weems looks like he’s taken a step back.
DD is definitely better, and you’re right, Sonny does seem to have regressed.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 4, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it’s wierd. I expected both of them to come back strong, but Weems has seemed a bit off track. Last night he scored a bunch, but still didn’t seem like a big contributor. Maybe his newfound friendship with Andrea is rubbing off on his shot selection and defensive awareness…..just kidding ;)
Weems is just doing what it takes to get paid in the NBA — chucking up shots and scoring without caring about efficiency or the team concept. There’s a lot more to basketball.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Weems
Remember how everyone loved Jamario Moon, then the next season started jumping off the bandwagon in drones?
Isn’t a similar thing happening with Sonny, and isn’t there a lesson to this trend?
Lesson is, Toronto stumbles (I’d say finds but the Weems piece was a complete fluke) on value but that value becomes immediately thrown under the magnifying glass of unrealistic fan expectations; fans who are tricked into believing a player is something he’s not simply because he’s being compared to the minimal talent that’s surrounding him.
Make no mistake about it, Moon and Weems are NBA players, and nice finds because they were cheap and came from seemingly nowhere, but they’re not starters on good NBA squads. Unfortunately they’re looked upon as such thanks to the giant void of talent that has existed with this franchise for the last decade essentially.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
We're not at the Jamario point yet
But you are starting to see the difference in talent level between he and Demar.
Don’t want to give up on him after 4 games.
More worried about Amir.
Agreed
Way to early to crap out on Weems. Different system – where the Raps are tracking higher in a lot of statistical data – and many new players. Roles are still getting defined, with a few surprises (good & bad). For the Raptors, this is sort of like preseason – with the "real" season begining in October 2011.
Right now, I think we’re focusing too much on such a small time frame. Analysts generally don’t like making a call using only 5 % of the data.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 5, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not Jamario yet
And man, everyone remembers how much of a Moon hater I was.
I think Sonny is smarter than that, but I also think that the message that is getting out to him or at least how he’s receiving it isn’t working. I know they need him to be an energizer and to “make things happen”. I KNOW it because I’ve heard them say it. But they also need to figure out a way to impart to him that just because we say these things doesn’t mean that on every play when he gets the ball, it’s the green light to just go and make an offensive play.
And defensively, he’s just become lazy at moving his feet.
I don’t know what it is, but I have to keep calling him on it and I’m noticing it more and more. Like I said to a couple people earlier in the year, it’s like he’s trying to play for a roster spot still in the d-league. He still hasn’t figured out what he can best do on this team and instead thinks he can do everything. And yes, it’s early, but we’re also seeing a pattern.
And patterns scare me. This team needs to develop habits. And not the bad ones.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 5, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
TPE and Point Guards
Was thinking about this even before seeing the “highlights” to last night’s match. It’s probably an article onto itself but this position needs to be addressed big time.
However even with the TPE, unless Toronto would be willing to roll the dice on an Arenas or a Baron Davis, there’s not a lot out there. Maybe targeting an upside guy like Jonny Flynn but what would Minny possibly want? They don’t need the cap space, and unless TO’s willing to give up a young guy like Weems or DeRozan…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Absolutely not
to Baron Davis or Jonny Flynn. Raps need to be patient and wait for the right pg to come along. We need a game changer at a critical position like pg not a fill in.
Agreed
Any TPE pg is going to be a bandaid – we need major surgery, we’re not close, and not “one player away”.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 4, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Personally think the best bet is to take on a big contract to get a young’un as well. Maybe a high pick, maybe a young player like Rubio, Flynn, etc. Although as you say, Minny is a terrible match for TO for trades right now. Need to wait for the deadline, where some team will discover it has drastically overpaid for it’s insufficient talent.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 4, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Was just looking at ESPN’s trade checker and realized I was contradicting myself…Tronix, RapsAddict, you’re right…this season is a product of Bryan Colangelo’s “home-run signing attempts” so he’s just going to have to wait this one out now, and grab a stud in the draft hopefully that can run the 1 for the future.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 4, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
As a Duke fan…you know that’s who I have my eyes set on…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 4, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Dear PNUTZ
I don’t set myself up at all. I said many times, Bargnani is not a franchise player and he is not a natural center. He is an excellent player who has shown improvement last year and continuing this year. I just don’t agree with this constant picking at him after you put him up on a pedistal to which he is not qualified to be on. (franchise-#1 player etc).
Defensive Stance critized my sugestion that we would likely get up to 6 rebounds per game saying that would be totally unacceptable. Well look at Jefferson’s numbers last night and most sports experts think he is a top player. I doubt he gets the flack from Jazz fans that Bargani has here.
After last night’s game I would agree with you, but it’s consistancy that’s the issue.
No fans have put him on this pedstal, MLSE did, and that’s what they are selling us.
Based on last nights performance he looked like a natural C to me.
He has admitted he’s lazy, I can’t complain about lack of ability, but I can complain about lack of desire. If Jefferson posted 2RPG for 3 games in a row, and looked completly lost on the glass I’m sure he would get some flak.
???
When did MLSE put AB on a pedastal? If anything they are sheilding him from being in the spotlight.
He’s been on a pedestal to a certain extent from the moment he was taken first overall. Yes, they’ve tried to shield him to a certain extent, but he’s been on tickets, merchandise and even has his own NBA TV Canada spots, so it’s not like he’s Joey Dorsey…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
He is one of our better players so obviously he will be promoted to a certain extend but he was buried behind this collective young guns movement (and I would say it was a calcualted move to keep the focus and angst away from Bargnani). I’ve never heard anyone in the organzition hold up AB as the #1 guy ala Bosh or Carter.
Andrea
and …. A Streetcar named Desire.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 5, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
About as expected
This result is not surprising as the Raps simply are not ready/capable of competing with the tier 1 & 2 teams in the West.
Cons
- did not like the poor start which speaks to poor preparation by Triano and his staff. Sloan clearly dominated this match up. As did Westphal with his in game adjustments in Sacremento
- the defense on this road trip has been brutal 7 out of 8 quarters. Not good.
- although Calderone’s minutes have correctly been reduced he is slowly playing himself out of the league. He is contributing next to nothing
- very disappointed with Jack’s decision making and passing. He has the skills to play much better but he simply isn’t doing it which is so frustrating
- a lot of the individual stats from last night are inflated because the game was blown wide open so early. Garbage time basically started in the 2nd quarter
- Barbosa has no jumper since he re-injured his wrist which is severely reducing both his and the 2nd unit’s effectiveness. I have dropped him from my fantasy team with the expectation he will have surgery soon. Very unfortunate because I love his attitude and his game
Pros
- I am surprised by Bargs’ overall offensive production and efficiency. I did not expect him to do what he is doing. I would still prefer to have a traditional centre and Bargs’ game is far from complete, but he does deserve props for his play so far
- very impressed that the Raps didn’t quit and battled back twice. This is really all that I’m expecting this year.
- I was a Derozan doubter until recently. I’m really starting to like his aggressiveness and work ethic. Keep doing what you’re doing Demar.
Hope the Raps don’t hang their heads on this loss. This loss was not unexpected and should not hurt their confidence. I hope they forget about it and get ready for the next one against whoever (can’t remember who they play next)…
Last night's rebounding matchup
Last night’s game was interesting in terms of rebounding. Bargnani had a height advantage over the Utah front court and combined with better aggressiveness he used that advantage to snag 9 boards. He should be able to do that more often, but doesn’t for whatever reason…..
On the other hand, Reggie Evans usually has a “hustle” advantage over his PF counterpart. Last night he was up against Millsapp, Jefferson, etc and they matched his level of intensity. As a result of Reggie no really having any other physical advantages he was largely neutralized.
This was a game where a guy like Amir might have really shone on the boards due to his quickness and length, but unfortunately he turned his ankle and didn’t play much.
At least we finally got a chance to see Dorsey on the court. He didn’t make a strong impression on my one way or the other. What did others think of his play?
I would argue
Reggie still pulled down some big boards, I remember a play where he went up for an offensive rebound against 3 Jazz players and ended up drawing a loose ball foul. He missed both free throws, but the effort and effictiveness was still there. I also think that Bargnani just looked like he wanted to rebound more, In the end the total rebounds between the two of them were probably a wash, but if both players are going after them, you have a better chance of grabbing the important rebounds.
More importantly (as mentioned by Jefferson) the Jazz frontcourt were instructed to neutralize Reggie on the boards…having Evans in the opposing teams gameplan is a positive and opens things up for other players as well as limited guys like Milsap and Jefferson from having free reign (putting a body on Evans is tough and tiring work).
Kyle Irving
You guys mentioned it…last night just proved what this team REALLY needs..jack scored ok but at times tries to much and is averaging like 4 turnovers a game..and Jose after having a good game at the kings last night just can’t buy a shot. DS mentioned last night that the raps are in the Harrison Barnes sweepstake..forget that this team needs a young point guard to grow with this team and by reading the reports by scouts this Kyle Irving kid sounds like the better option for this team than Barnes..unless they get a young point guard in the deadline I.e. Rubio than that’s who the raps should go for in the draft.
by sherwin316 on Nov 4, 2010 11:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’d be okay with someone like a Kyle Irving if we lost in the loto.. but my theory is you don’t win championships with a PG.. you win with a dynamic SF/SG
Building a champ
I subscribe to the 2+ superstar theory. To be a champ you need two players who are top 5 at their position + complimentary role players.
At one time we could point to Bosh as being one of those pieces, but now the team is back to square zero, and is essentially shuffling the role players around as we wait to see if we can land a lottery prize.
Simply put, if Harrison Barnes is the better talent, then we should take him regardless of position.
by CamHilton on Nov 4, 2010 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree with both Ustation and CamHilton
The theory that you don’t win championships with a PG will certainly be tested in the next decade since the NBA seems to be entering a golden age of floor generals (Rondo, Rose, Jennings, Curry, etc). But then you look at teams like the Lakers who have got it done with Fisher. There’s a reason why Jarrett Jack-to-the-Heat rumours are floating around — Miami is so stacked at the other positions, they just need a solid PG who can make shots.
The Raptors starting lineup right now is completely devoid of superstar talent. You definitely draft the best available player regardless of talent. Harrison Barnes might be the frontrunner right now, but who’s to say that doesn’t change in a month or following the tourney or whatever.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much agree
The NCAA season hasn’t even started yet, so many things could change. If you recall, Derozan was slated to be a 1st or 2nd overall pick before the season began. We know how that turned out.
i would agree but...
I would agree with that but that’s not always the case..when the pistons won the championship a few years ago who was the MVP..it was billups..when the spurs won I believe tony Parker got an MVP one year..and when the Celtics won a few years ago the best player was rondo..look at what he’s doing this year..he is hands down the C’s best player..you can win a championship with a PG and with the raps PG is our weakest position right now.
by sherwin316 on Nov 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Those are great examples… but then you can sort of explain them.
Billups was not a standout, dominant PG on that Pistons squad — that was a deep, well balanced team.
Parker had Duncan and Ginobli, who are both arguably more talented and critical to the success of those squads.
Rondo is a beast — but again, there are three Hall of Famers letting him do his thing. In many ways, that Celtics situation is probably the best thing that ever happened to Rondo because it’s allowed him to develop into a dominant player while slowly shifting the focus away from the Big Three, and allowing the older-than-dirt Celtics to remain in contention.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
your right
Your totally right..I’m just seeing how all the good teams in the league..okc, Boston, Utah, bulls etc. Have young exciting PG’s who on any given night get their team 20 plus points and double digit assists. That’s what we don’t is that PG I just feel that is the one need we should try and get..but if we get barnes than no complaints here
by sherwin316 on Nov 4, 2010 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s my thing right now: Based on the past, you’d say Jarrett Jack would be an acceptable PG for a championship team because he can knock down shots at a decent percentage as the 4th or 5th option.
But going forward, is that going to be the case? Who can say whether the next decade of the League is not going to be dominated by elite PGs?!
The two top contenders this year appear to be the LA Lakers (Fisher/Blake), Orlando (Nelson) and Miami (Arroyo), so no reason to think teams winning with average PGs doesn’t continue.
At the same time, Boston (Rondo) was a quarter away from a title last year. And it’s tough to bet against Westbrook and OKC capturing a championship in the near future.
The guard play in the League is one of the things fueling my fandom at the moment. Very exciting time to be a basketball fan.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta agree about the guard play…as much as I miss the fundamental big man, I make that trade-off in a nano-second.
I also would say the key is not necassarily the PG position itself but having a 2-3 who can play as an effective point guard is essential (Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Peirce, KD)…the definition of each postion is becoming so blurred they are basically obsolete (guards and bigs).
I did a study a couple of years ago, that pretty much showed every dominate SF/SG has made it to the NBA semi-finals (and pretty quickly might I add), but you can’t say that about PGs.
Great SF/SGs will make automatically make PGs good. To win a championship, you just need an adequate PG, enough to bring the ball over the time line, push once in a while, and hit their open shot. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, Duncan, don’t need PGs to do anything fancy. Just get them the ball at the right spot which I’d argue isn’t very hard with those players.
Remember Rondo pre big 3? Personally, I still think he’s way over rated. Stick him on the Raptors and.. well.. he’s worse than Devin Harris.
Glad to see a little love for Bargnani
But man the first ten minutes the Jazz were killing us inside.
Nearly turned the game off after 1 – glad I didn’t. Liked the fight we showed to get back into it.
PG sure seems to be the big issue now. Jose play is making him virtually untradeable.
When Davis comes back will be interesting to see how the minutes gets split with the bigs.
To your point Ustation
Spot on. Todays Lakers are an excellant example of what you are saying. Fisher is not a superstar but he’s good and he is their leader. He’s the guy that talks in the huddles.
I kinda understand where everyone is hung up on AB, whether he’s this or that.
For me.. I don’t see “positions” rather, numbers.
I want my batman to either be:
A 20/10 Guy is dominate. Doesn’t matter which 10 (well as long as its not turnovers), but 10Rs is way more sexy.
or a 20/6+/6+ superstar.
Originally, when AB was labeled a bust, I had him as a 15/6+/5 potential kinda guy, which is good enough to be the Robin variety and I’d say that would meet expectations. This year he’s demonstrating he’s a 20+ which is good, but the back half of the stats is just not there. So I’m a bit torn. I never really expected 20+, but he’s not improved on his career 4.8 R average.
I don’t expect him to go much above the career 5 R average, and there’s no signs that he could improve this either, but adding +2 on the Assists or +.5 on the blocks would go a long way.
Agree. But here’s the thing — Bargs isn’t adding those two assists per game. It’s just not happening. His assist rate has gone down with the increase in minutes over the last few seasons. He’s sitting at 1.5 assists per game right now, and should probably settle back into around 1.2 assists once it’s all said and done.
Bargs is not a Batman or a Robin. He’s a role player, plain and simple. He’s a shooter who can score in bunches, which is a decent way to win a quarter or two here and there.
The challenge lies with Colangelo to go out and get the Batman and Robin, move Bargs into a bench role, and hopefully watch him capture a 6th Man of the Year Award at some point in the next few seasons. Nothing wrong with being in the same class as a Jason Terry or Leandro Barbosa.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree, he’ll never be Batman or Robin.. but I guess what I’m saying is people have to stop expecting that, and then we can move on. What I’m questioning is, what’s his best case scenario?
At his points/per minute rate, he’d still be one of the top 6th man on any team. Obviously nothing to write home and cheer about (woohoo.. we have the best 6th man), but it is something.
If I’m not mistaken, AB is #2 in points per minutes played (over 25 mins) behind only Kobe so far this season.
Haha. Glad you threw in that caveat!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Batman & Robin
You mean Bargs is like Alfred … something like what CB is, in Miami.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 5, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I think someone mentioned Batgirl or Supergirl a while ago. Great compare. Hahaha.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 5, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Your conditions:
Let’s see who met them last year.
LeBron James
Chris Bosh
Zach Randolph
David Lee
Those are all the players in the league who had 20/10 or 20/6/6 in points/rebounds/assists.
PS. Considering I wouldn’t want Bosh, Randolph or Lee as my franchise player, I think your requirements might be a little off.
There was also D. Howard (20/11)
C. Paul was a 20/9
Deron Williams was a 17/10/5
D. Wade was a 22.4/5/4.2
Derek Rose was a 27.7/8.7/5
Steph Curry was a 20/8.5
Tyreke Evans was a 20/5/5
and historically, Duncan, Yao, Shaq,
But your point taken, however based on my forecasting, I do think Randolph, Bosh, Lee if paired with another elite would be able to win.
However, ultimately, the most important stat is scoring per 48. Mega superstar status magic number is 35.
Last year: Durant 36.6, James 36.5, Anthony 35.4, Wade 35.2
08-09: Wade37.6, Lebron 36.2, Bryant 35.7, (Granger was 34.2)
and as always, there’s no perfect formula, but we use these to help calc our power rankings and do our forecasting. At the end of the day.. it’s been fairly profitable.
I will also add, there’s a perception bias vs scoring per 48. I’m not necessarily saying its wrong, but we love our high s/48 guys and we careless about their defence, rebounding, etc.
People don’t consider Lee or Bosh as “franchise piece” because of the low S/48.
Just for the record, D. Howard had 18 PPG, so he didn’t meet your criteria.
You’re right, there’s a whole bunch of players that meet lesser criteria than yours, just not your criteria.
Oh, and Bargnani is scoring 33.6 PP48 this year. Awful close…
by dhackett1565 on Nov 4, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Howard is the perfect example of how a centre who plays fantastic defense and rebounds can be a foundation for a legit contender, even if he is not the most prolific offensive player. Not that many examples of legit contenders that started a good offensive centre who is a doughnut in the defense and rebounding catagories…
Can you imagine!
Move your top scorer to the bench. Now assists are an issue with a PF/C. You guys are really reaching now. I hope you guys are laughing your heads off while you’re writing this stuff cause if you’re serious you’re scarin me here.
What we’re saying is that people put too much emphasis on scoring. Everyone in this league can score. Hell, guys like Jamal Crawford are 6th men and can easily be the top scorers on their respective teams. That doesn’t mean they HAVE to start. If that’s all a guy can do consistently, not sure why you’d want him to start.
Look at the Lakers or Celtics – how many one-dimensional types do they have in their starting line-ups?
Now if Bargs plays at both ends like he did last night etc, then that changes. But until I consistently see that, I’d have no problem with bringing him off the pine.
Is that realistic and a laughable idea based on how Triano and BC view him?
You bet…
…but hey, at one point the idea of Shawn Marion coming off the bench seemed ridiculous too, but he’s doing that right now for Dallas…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Unless there is a better all-around player to put in his place in the starting lineup, I see no reason at all to put him on the bench.
Johnson? Can’t stay on the floor, plus gets pushed around at the C spot. Reggie? Again, has trouble guarding C’s, and as we are seeing, has trouble with extended minutes. Andersen? Please. Alabi? Sure, but it ain’t gonna happen.
Someone coming off the bench only helps if their replacement improves the starting lineup.
I agree with dhackett
Do you people not realize there’s NO ONE to take his place? When he was out of the game last game, the offence completely fell apart.
I think the point Franchise and others above are trying making is that this team can’t seriously contend (or truly compete IMO) with Andrea Bargnani as the starting centre. Does that mean you move him to the bench now? No, because no matter WHAT this team does, as currently constructed, they are not going to seriously compete/contend. To your point, they are completely devoid of talent leaving the team with no alternative to starting Bargnani (mainly because BC has probably not yet realized that Bargnani can not be a starting centre for a playoff nevermind championship team).
However make no mistake, at some point, if this team truly wants to be succesful at some point they will have to bring in legitimate NBA starters (through draft/trade/signing) and put Bargnani in a role suited to his talent: a 6th man utility forward that can come in and focus on scoring baskets. This would be best for everyone concerned, fans, the team and even Bargnani.
The only problem with this though, is that BC prematurely and unexplicably signed him to a deal that I feel overpays for the role that best suits Bargnani’s skill set. A role player/6th man should not be paid $10+ mil a season.
70% of the starters in the NBA could be classified as “ideally suited as a six man off the bench for a championship team”. I’m not a huge defender of Andrea as I also believe sold two way players is how to win chips but they are extremely rare in the NBA…and you guys are completely undervaluing the ability to score in the NBA. 20 PPG talent coming from the 4/5 position is not an easy skillset to replicate and he is well on his way there. You put Bargnani on a legit championship contender which presumably would have a defensive minded rebounding center and guards who can prevent blow bys on every possession and Bargnani’s defiencies would barely be noticed and would be a highly complimentary starter and a nightmare to handle on offense.
..and Shawn Marion is 32 years with his best days far behind him. Bargnani, counter to many comments I read, is improving each year (just at a frustratingly slow pace). 16 months ago we were all ready to trade him for anything with a pulse and now he’s a legit NBA talent. I still see him developing (slowly but I still see it) so I’m not ready to label him or limit his minutes until he plateaus (likely a couple of years away)…at that point he will either be a respectable starter on both sides of the floor or an attractive trading chip.
Who’s asking AB to be moved to the bench?
For me, my only point is for those who say he’s “useless”, I’m arguing he’d be incredibly valuable off the bench.
However, he could be an acceptable starter if he were able to improve either his Rebounds, Assists or Blocks. I mean, that’s fairly obvious, but the question, is how much would that be to be “worthy” of being a value to a team.
bargs is playing early on, i think a few of you cough* franchise* cough oh him an apology
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 4, 2010 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Just make sure you erase the 4th quarter of the Sacramento game from your DVR first…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 4, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey
Are you getting all half-empty on us?
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 4, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I know right - the way he's inspired this team to a 1 and 4 record and is averaging 4.5 rebounds is amazing...
And yes, I’m counting tomorrow’s game with the Lakers as a loss. Call me crazy…
Well
If we’re gonna use small sampling stats, how about 9 rebounds against a legitimate Contender (with a top-rated Front Court).
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 5, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Random points:
I have been VERY encouraged from what I have seen from Demar DeRozan in this early season. While he’s still not there yet obviously, he’s shown a spark of something special. The evolution of DeRozan may be the best story coming out of this season.
How awsome is this clip of Triano dropping the f-bomb on live TV. My regard of Triano actually improved slightly after watching this: )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw5SVkpO4bE&feature=player_embedded
One more random thought: Jeff Green
The Thunder failed to re-up Jeff Green by the deadline, meaning he will becomre a restricted Free Agent this summer. Green is the type of young talent the Raptors (with cap space this summer) should target. Oklahoma may be hesitant to match as he basically plays the same position as Durant and they are going to have to pay a few players in the comming years (Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka et al). Green could step in and start on this team and with a young core of Green, DeRozan and potentially our lottery pick this summer you at least have a starting point…
I would love that, but.....
While I think it would be nearly impossible for the Raptors to acquire Green this summer, I would absolutely love to see the Raptors go into next season with the following line-up:
Starters: Bargnani-Davis-Green-DeRozan-draft pick(Irving?)
Bench: Johnson, Kleiza, Weems, Jack, maybe Barbosa
That might not quite be a playoff calibre team, but it would be fun as hell to watch.
Ok Let's look at rebounds then
Thus far in the season in defensive team rankings Toronto ranks 14 out of 30 with 39 rebounds allowed per game while gathering 42. Boston allows 38.8 while getting 42.6. Dallas ranks 9th allowing42 while getting 43.
Orlando has the best ranking defensively but is down in ninth place offensively
So what does all that mean? It means that your wins do not coralate to the number of rebounds you get. Last night the Raps had one more rebound than Utah.
For an individual player, the type of rebounding night he may have can be affected by the style of team they play. Last night, Williams(a PG) gets the most rebounds on the Jazz team. That was likely because there happened to be a lot of long rebounds from longer jump shots. Also, more shots could be going up from a certain area of the floor. There are lots of variables.
The value of rebounds is an uncertain commodity because a player could get two rebounds in a row only to see the ball turned over soon after. Those are wasted efforts where a scored basket goes in the score sheet and maintains it value.
I realize you are trying to come up with ways to discredit Bargnani, but it’s very weak to try to dismiss the value of his scoring but placing inflated value on rebounds.
I must say, your efforts to discredit this young man are only exceeded by your unfairness.
Great point
Good rebounding numbers are a symptom of good defence, but good defence is NOT a symptom of good rebounding. And defence wins games.
Yes
As Boston has proven (over the past few years), defense gets you to the Championship finals, even when you’re rebounding sucks.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 5, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
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