Tip-In: Tough to Swallow - Raptors Collapse Down the Stretch in Loss to Kings
After a blistering first half, the Raptors cooled off considerably and had no answer for Tyreke Evans as they start their West Coast swing with a loss to the Kings last night.
Yesterday I posted 3 keys to the Raptors' match against the Kings; slowing Sacramento down on D, getting a good game from DeMar DeRozan at both ends, and winning the battle of the boards.
Well...up until the fourth quarter last night, you could argue that Toronto had taken care of 2 of these 3.
However in the end, Sacramento won the battle of the "keys," and spurred on thanks to a superb effort from an under-the-weather Tyreke Evans, the Kings came back from a 17 point deficit to beat the Raps 111 to 108.
This was an easily winnable game that Toronto let slip away from about halftime on, and now the team has to climb a very steep hill the rest of this Western Conference swing.
So yes, I'm guessing there will be some long faces this morning.
But should there really be?
The type of performance that Raptors' fans saw last night is one I expect to see a lot of this year; an exciting match that Toronto is in till the end, but can't finish off thanks to a lack of talent and/or ability to execute in key moments.
This was indeed the case late yesterday evening as Toronto had no answer for the one-man wrecking crew known as Tyreke Evans, nor could they make the necessary plays at either end down the stretch to get the W.
On offence, players like Andrea Bargnani and Linas Kleiza went cold, and others like Leandro Barbosa were simply frigid.
And on defence the team put up a paper thin front against Evans' running-backesque attacks on the basket, and failed to keep Tyreke's teammates from getting second chances even when he didn't finish.
Bargani's embarrassing attempts at boxing out stick out pretty badly in the latter scenario, but he was hardly alone on this night. Linas Kleiza did a poor job of keeping the energetic Casspi at bay, DeRozan had his hands full with Evans, Calderon barely had much more success trying to contain Beno Udrih, and even though Reggie Evans again did his best Dennis Rodman impression, he forced too many offensive attempts for my liking late in the match.
Oh...and memo to Jay Triano.
Maybe the wholesale line-up change isn't the best plan at times and what was with the play in the final minute that resulted in a Barbosa air-ball 3? Leandro had been ice cold all night, wasn't there a better option?
Add on the fact that despite a sub-par bout of play on the night, I felt that the team could have used some of Jarrett Jack's resolve down the stretch and it's hard to exclude coaches or anyone from last night's L. To me this was indeed a team loss and one that will likely test this young team's resolve. We'll now see early in the season just what sort of fight we can expect from this group; can they put this one behind them and get ready to take on the much more balanced Utah Jazz tomorrow night?
That's the big question.
The other big question for me is if this team can start to get a little more balance to its performances.
You can laud Reggie Evans all you want for his hustle and rebounding prowess, he's rebounding per minute more than Dennis Rodman in his prime at present, but he still remains a very one-dimensional player.
And maybe that would be fine if he wasn't paired with another one-dimensional type in Andrea Bargnani.
If you could combine them together to form one power forward or center you'd be unbelievably thrilled, but at present, it's a bit like playing 4 on 5 at times and I felt that to be extremely evident down the stretch last night. Once one became ineffective in their niche (rebounding for Evans, scoring for Bargs) then they were pretty invisible on the court and at times detrimental to the team.
The whole situation also made me think about advanced stats like wins produced scores etc.
For anyone who doesn't believe there's real value in these type of metrics, all you had to do was watch last night's match and in particular, zero in Evans and Bargnani.
You can see why similar to Ben Wallace in the early part of the decade with the Pistons, Reggie's got a chance to score extremely high in terms of "wins produced" if he keeps up this rebounding pace. There's almost nothing more valuable than a player who time after time can provide his team with an extra possession, especially if his team is then converting on these extra possessions at a high rate.
This was Reggie up until the latter parts of the game.
However once he's forced to be a scorer, his value tumbles as he's such a horrifically inefficient offensive player.
And turning to Andrea, why do advanced stats typically note that Bargs has very little positive impact on games?
Again, turn to last night's match.
Sure he put up 28 points, but with only two rebounds and a good 20+ points scored by the players he was guarding, things even out pretty quickly.
I thought the perfect sequence to describe Andrea's game at present happened late in the game in fact.
At one end, Bargs collected himself off a somewhat broken play, and made a silky-smooth jumper for 2 points helping to keep Toronto ahead on the score board.
But that hardly made up for the fact that on the previous possession, he allowed DeMarcus Cousins to get position on him inside, snatch a rebound, and easily score off said rebound.
Now this isn't meant to be a stinging indictment of either Evans or Bargnani, it's just a reality of the situation right now. To help this team to win, both need to limit their liabilities so that the areas they excel in stand out, and you saw that in the first quarter against Sacto. Evans was focussed almost solely on rebounding while Andrea was mixing up his offense, being aggressive in the post, and doing a good job staying with his man individually. Playing in this manner together, they form much more of a two-headed beast, or an "Evanani" as I believe the National Post's Eric Koreen put it last night on Twitter.
I prefer Andy Evans, Reggie's white, snooker-playing cousin but hey, that's just me.
In any event, this loss stings but the team needs to turn around now and prep for the Jazz.
Despite the L, there were some good things to take from this one, especially the play of DeMar DeRozan (14 free-throw attempts!) that hopefully the club can build on as the season continues.
After all, this is what this year should be about, developing talent.
So for all of the pains and heartache of losses like last night's, I'm not going to be too distraught as long as I'm seeing certain parts of the team progress in some fashion, and that was indeed the case last night.
Oh...and I think we can all as Raptors' fans take some solace too in the fact that our club didn't just give Mike Conley Jr. a $45M extension...
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didn’t just give Mike Conley Jr. a $45M extension
yahoo says 40 mil for 5 years. avging 15 pts, 5 rbs, 8 assists in the young season. and, we DID give a contract like that – to Jose Calderon, whose best season was 13 points, 3 rebs and 9 dimes.
i think conley will turn out to be a better player than JC – maybe Chris Paul-lite?
There’s a difference between averaging numbers over 3 games and averaging them over an entire season. The Calderon contract was a mistake, but it did seem somewhat warranted at the time.
Conley
Yeah, penned this very late last night when the full details weren’t out yet…people were freaking about the $45M as was I.
Tough call between him and Jose in my books, only Jose’s not starting…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 2, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather pay Conley than Calderon at this point. But again, this goes back to ill-advised extensions when teams are caving to an agent (Duffy) instead of doing what’s best for the team and letting the market dictate the contract the following summer.
My favourite example, of course, is the Raptors bidding against themselves to “reward” Bargnani.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Derozan Explosion
Add a good measure of consistency and the Raps may finally have their go to guy. It would be really nice to see him become a star. He seems to developing very well especially on the offensive side of the ball with some good moves to the basket that draw fouls or score.
DD’s aggressiveness was one of the highlights of the night. He attacked the rim hard and played some good D. He got to line a lot but could have shot better (only 71%). But I don’t think I’ve ever seen him look better.
But if he wants to become a ‘go to’ player he is going to have to prove that he has a consistent jumper to complement his dribble drive because defences are going to start to sag off him and force him to shoot from outside. If he can consistently hit spot up, catch & shoot and pull up jumpers he could be deadly.
But he is definitley trending up which is good to see.
Like Tronix said, the trending is there, hoping we see it more consistently going forward. Still don’t think he’ll ever be a go-to guy, but if he can be a Josh Howard (in his Dallas prime) type wing, that’s all you can ask for really out of that draft spot.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 2, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
And turning to Andrea, why do advanced stats typically note that Bargs has very little positive impact on games?
Again, turn to last night’s match.
Sure he put up 28 points, but with only two rebounds and a good 20+ points scored by the players he was guarding, things even out pretty quickly.
Just nodding my head in agreement right now.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 9:54 AM EDT reply actions
That was the key topic of conversation during last nights game. AB is a wash, and as I said neither +/- as an individual. However, if used properly, maybe able to swing to a mild +. Pairing him with Evans is an obvious example, but I think the same will be true with Davis however a bit differently. Evans makes up for the Rebounds, but Davis will make up for the weak side help defence.
Another way to help AB is to have our back-court guys defend their guy.
But at the end of the day, Cousins abused AB in the 4th.
Pairing Evans with Bargnani is probably the best option at the moment. I’d look at it like this:
If Evans can rebound a lot and Bargnani can score a lot then that is a good start, but it only helps if Evans can score a little(rather than not at all) and if Bargnani can rebound a little(like 5-6 a game rather than 1-2).
Agreed…right now not enough of “a little” happening with either player.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 2, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
AB is a wash, and as I said neither +/- as an individual. However, if used properly, maybe able to swing to a mild +.
Was just discussing this, and it’s so true. Start using Bargs the way he was meant to be used — as a 6th man — and get him off the floor in the closing minutes of a close game where rebounding and possessions are critical. Or at least sub offence/defence. After five years, you’d figure Triano would have his game figured out by now.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but...
Last night, I wouldn’t really have played Andersen or Johnson ahead of him either necessarily. The Raptors needed some sort of scoring punch from somewhere.
Incidentally, I think a pairing with Bargs and Dorsey could go places too.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 2, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Bargs provided the scoring punch in the first half and a bit in the second. But what I’m talking about is crunch time when Bargs was getting destroyed by Cousins — he should not be on the floor. The scoring can come from the backcourt or Kleiza or even Amir Johnson, who converts at a very high percentage inside. Scoring has never been this team’s issue.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Were you watching the same game?
Did you not see when the Raptors couldn’t do shit on offence at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th – right about the time when Bargnani came off.
Again, “crunch time” is not defined as the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th. No problem with Bargnani on the floor and scoring at that time. But he was an absolute liability at the end of the game last night.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
When the backups had their meltdown losing the lead Andersen was the only one playing unselfish and wasn’t getting any shot attempts
Weems is pretty bad. Raptors should look for another backup shooting guard.
Sit Weems and Play Banks
I actually think the Raps would be smart to give the minutes that Weems has been getting to Marcus Banks. Let Banks get a fair amount of run, like Reggie is. The guy is in a contract year, and I am sure would be motivated to a) get himself to a contender ASAP and b) show that he should remain in the league beyond this year. Maybe if he could show some use a team would trade for him. They can give minutes to Weems and Julian Wright later.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 2, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Would have liked to have seen Dorsey get some time, even a few minutes just to spell Reggie and keep Cousins at bay.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 2, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
We had him, but we never used Rasho in situations like that, where he would have helped, and it always drove me crazy.
My problem with “Get Andrea off the floor because of his defense” argument is that there’s nobody who could clearly do a better job on the defensive end against a legit big like Cousins. I think Amir would have been seriously undersized and had no shot to deny Cousins position.
I like Amir’s chances better than Bargs. Hell, I’d like Nate Robinson’s chances on Cousins over Bargs.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
useless bigman
I made a comment about this a couple of days ago.
He can score all he wants, it wont translate into W’s
My definition is based on the fact that he can only control a very small portion of the game. His offense, when his shot is falling he seems pretty good, when it’s not he’s useless. Useless because he can’t make up for it, by rebounding or playing good team defense.
How many Centers can control all portions of the game? There’s a reason why one comes once every 10 years and why every GM gamble on bigs every draft even though there are more talented other positions.
Let’s take a look at top pick bigs over the years:
2009 #2 Hasheem Thabeet
2008 #10 Loez
2007 #1 Greg Oden
- Yi Jian Lian
2006 #1 Bargs, #9 POB, #10 Saer Sene
2005 #1 Bogut, #8 Frye
2004 #1 Howard, #2 Okafor, #8 Araujo #12 Swift
2003 #2 Darko Milicic
Think about.. how many top Cs were drafted in the last 10 years? AB at least looks ok vs that class.
lots more DA eh?? Oh well then BC should have drafted one.. ok.. who should he have drafted in the last 5 years?
No.. then what about free agent? Hmm who was available in the last 5 years?
Is it too late
If we were to make sure Calderon and Anderson are off the floor, could we get away with playing Bargs as a small forward? He could not be that much worse defensively than a guy like Turkoglu (and I am not talking just about his time with the Raptors).
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 2, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It might be as unfathomable to JT as it is to us that the guy can’t get after the ball a little harder. Based on seeing the other changes in his game, especially the good work in the post, I’m not going to think it’s impossible Bargs adds a little more rebounding into his game this year.
I mean when the team looks at the tape of this game, it’s going to be obvious that Bargs could have played cousins at least a little tougher. I do believe he wants to win.
my conclusion is.. AB just doesn’t like contact. He fears it. Whenever the ball heads his way, his natural step is away. If it’s fight or flight, he’s a flight guy. What can you say? It’s instinct that’s hard to overcome. Vs. you see a guy like Evans who loves contact.
Sometimes you just can’t overcome your brain. I used to love contact in all sports, but ever since I tore my ACL, I know I’m fearful when playing any sports. It’s something I haven’t been able to overcome, even though I have a brace.
I agree completely, AB doesn’t like contact. I don`t know if it`s fear though, maybe, but I think it`s just his mentality.
This may sound weird, but you have to wonder about his formative basketball watching years. Did he watch nba, college, euroleague, just the guys he grew up playing with and against… Maybe he`s just an athelete and great player without a great perception of what it takes to win. Lotta maybes, just throwing it out there.
Probably correct, although I have the impression that there is a fair bit of physical play in the European leagues. I’d say that Bargnani spending so many years growing up at SF is a factor, too.
I would argue he is a wash or a mild + only when his shot is falling.
Most of the time he’s on the -.
I enjoyed the game....
…because I fell asleep at half-time.
That was a well played first half. You could see a few danger signs towards the end when the lead started to slip a little. I noticed a couple of Sacramento offensive rebounds that ought to have been defensive rebounds by Bargnani. Also, a few ill advised shots were put up and missed. Given how well the Raptors were playing in general they could and perhaps should have been up by 20 at the half.
As far as the second half goes, I have no idea. I do think that the Raptors need more out of Amir, who picked up 2 fouls in 3 first half minutes of play. Realisitically, Evans shouldn’t be playing more that 25 mins a game. The rest of that playing time should be available for Amir, but he has got to get his act together. Barbosa, unfortunately, had a terrible shooting touch last night. He and Bargnani both need to find better ways to get out of shooting slumps than just putting up more and more bad jumpers.
On the plus side, some of the Raptors passing in the first half was great and some of their points on the break were beauties. What happened to that in the second half? I almost don’t want to know….
When we’re conducting the post mortem on the Raptors in 2010-11, we’ll probably look back at the Sacramento game as a microcosm of the season. This team is going to look like world beaters in spurts — but they won’t have enough to sustain a high level of play throughout an entire game… especially on the road against Western Conference teams.
The bottom line is that if this team truly wants to compete and win ball games, Triano needs to shorten the rotation to address the lack of talent *cough*David Anderson*cough*. How that guy played more minutes than Amir Johnson and Leandro Barbosa is beyond me?!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 10:04 AM EDT reply actions
Based on what those three did in the first half, Anderson deserved to play more. Barbosa was missing his shots and Johnson was fouling his brains out. Not helpful.
Johnson finished the game with three fouls. That means he had three more fouls to pick up before having to exit the game. Why on earth is Triano treating Johnson like Kobe Bryant and pulling him after he picks up a couple of fouls?! Let the guy play and get after it. If he fouls out, oh well — at least he’s being aggressive and the effort is there (unlike our passive Italian friend).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more
Who cares if he fouls out? In some ways, we should expect that to happen, and just accept that Amir gets 6 fouls per game and isn’t always around at the end. Oh well, at least we got what we could out of him. Like you said, he’s not Kobe.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 2, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more either
Didn’t the Raptors sign Johnson to you know, play him? What’s with the quick hooks for foul trouble? Let him foul out! Especially since at present, he’s the best “offensive” option at that spot and the team could use some help in that capacity.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 2, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
re:Couldn't agree more....
It is still very ealry in the year, if Evans can not increase his value enough to be traded to a legit playoff team, Amir will eventually take his minutes even if Evans outplays him. For now, the Raptors are smart to be letting Reggie go wild on the boards along side Bargs. Evans and Amir would be an awful pairing and Evans would not look like such an animal on the glass. Hopefully, they can trade him soon for something that will benefit the team in the future.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 2, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Conley over Amir
Colangelo sucks—Johnson looks totally lost out there and is proving all the experts correct when they said his contract was one of the worst ever. Until we stop throwing huge money at shitty players, the Raptors are a lottery team.
By the way, big loss last night! #1 pick! #1 pick!!!!! (damn the Clippers . . . c’mon Blake, get a few wins on the board, buddy)
This is why i am slowly becoming convinced that this team is cursed. It is quite possible that the Raptors win the first overall pick only to watch anyone worth drafting return to college rather than risk not getting a contract until the lockout is settled. Lets hope that is not the case cause this team needs help in the worst possible way.
the experts correct when they said his contract was one of the worst ever
The Eddy Curry contract would be in the running for that honour. Amir’s isn’t even in the same galaxy. Even given his struggles to date, I have no doubt that BC could trade Johnson today and get at least something back for him. In fact, Amir’s contract isn’t even the worst on the Raptors. Currently, I’d argue that Calderon’s or Bargnani’s is worse from the point of view of value you’d get back in a trade.
And...
…it’s only 3 games in.
Remember last season when everyone was ready to throw Jarrett Jack under the bus to start the year?
Now Amir needs more minutes and needs to simmer on the fouling, but still, lots of season to go.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Harsh Lessons
To me, this is all about fuel. Fuel for Triano to really get after his players. I look at last night’s game as a tool because this is how the Raptors will toss out good work over the course of the season. The moment they start to let up on the aggression, the moment they forget to pass the ball (thanks Weems for killing all the offensive flow!), the moment the Raptors stop attacking the basket, we’ll end up letting teams get back into it.
I’m not saying that this year isn’t going to be without challenges, but the Raptors are going to be able to win on effort a lot of nights. To me, last night showed what can happen when they really do get after it, and what can happen if they fall into a lapse that brings them back into their offense/defense a year ago. I’m not going to pile on the negatives because that aggression we saw in the first quarter has to become habit, and I know that habits take a long time to form. It’s gotta start with games like this, and hopefully, we can see the Raptors extend that habit to be longer, and longer… Until the Raptors start winning games no one expects them to win.
Last night was simply a building block. I’m going to keep being patient with this team.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 2, 2010 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Last night’s game sounds like a ready made instructions video. First half gives a clear indication of how the team can win games. Second half is a perfect example of how they can lose. Triano’s speech writes itself, “look guys you can take your pick. If you want to win then play like the first half, if you want to lose play like the second half. Any questions?”
Weems
Am I the only one that thinks Weems should be benched at this point? He’s lazy and thinks he’s Vince Carter on offence. How on earth did he put up 10 shots – the majority of them jumpers? I know Weems has a lot of supporters on this site so I might get flamed, but I haven’t been impressed with him at all. Even last year, when people were saying he’s as good a prospect as Derozan, I was just like….“Seriously….??” We all agreed that he has value on defence, but lately, he’s been doing his best Bargnani impression. I don’t see how putting a player with something to prove, like Julian Wright, hurts the team. Like we all determined at the beginning of camp, this is a season of learning. There are no super stars on this team, and by extension of that, no one Triano has to cater to. Pull the string Jay.
I was giving him a lot of slack
But my impatience is starting to grow. Like I said, he’s still playing like a guy trying to prove himself, rather than a guy who’s comfortable in his role. It may be soon time for some Julian Wright action.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 2, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Free Julian!
But seriously, enough of the jumpers already Sonny. Please, drive the basket and play a bit better D.
And you’re right – the gulf in talent between Sonny and DeMar grows by the day, which I"m OK with if it means DD just keeps improving. Only watched the first half, but that was by far the best I’d ever seen him, including a sick block.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 2, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Weems and Wright
Obviously I’m probably the biggest Weems backer here but I’d agree that he’s been in chucker mode too much lately. The problem is, on that second unit, he’s one of the only true sources of offense outside of Barbosa, so I think he feels he needs to toss them up. And percentage wise, I bet he’s the team’s best mid-range gunner, despite last night’s bricks.
I just don’t think he’s being used correctly right now. He had such good chemistry with DeRozan in Vegas, and even Jack in pre-season. I’d love to see more of that which means Jay needs to shorten that bench up.
That being said, why not give Julian Wright some burn in certain situations?
I mean, with Evans killing you, why not try Wright’s length and athleticism?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
+1 was to Franchise, btw
I like Weems’ mentality on the second unit — on the offensive end it’s my job to score. And if Barbosa, Amir and Andersen are having off nights, that’s definitely true.
Yes, the Raps obviously played a role in their loss last night, but I think credit has to be given to the Kings too. Tyreke stepped it up after not starting the second half with a stomach ailment, Cousins went on a rampage vs AB, and Casspi went 3-3 from downtown when he was quiet all night long. If Casspi misses one, then everything would have been different.
As I noted in my post, defending the 3 is huge!
With the quickness of DeRozan, Weems, Barbosa and the length of Kleiza, I would expect 3 point defense to be improved this season. This game and the one against the Knicks show that they still have some work to do.
My opinion to effective 3-d, is you can’t sag and to keep a hand in the pull through box (where the ball goes from the triple threat position to shooting), however that means being able to control penetration (or at least be able to make a guy go in the direction they don’t want) losing one extra step — then it means having better weakside help because you can force your guy into that zone.
Right now.. even with the quickness, the later is not true (mainly because of AB). They all sag and take their chances with the shot vs the penetration, unless its vs a 3p specialist. They sagged to try and help out vs Cousins and Tyreke last night and gambled on Casspi’s shot, and lost. However, I’d do that 3 out of 4 times as well.
The key was containing Cousins via 1-1 D, then protecting the paint on Tyreke, and not have to sag on Casspi as much.
The Raps were extremely slow rotating out to the perimeter last night. The Kings missed shots in the first half, so it didn’t matter. But Casspi torched them late.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus.. I gotta back track a bit here. Casspi made ridiculously quick shots!! I mean it was near Dell Curry quick. From what I remember, I couldn’t even blame the raps too much there, I thought the rotation wasn’t tooooooo bad. I’d like to see the replays, but I remember 2 of the three shots were just sick on Casspi’s part.
if Casspi misses 1 of 3, the raps “squeek” by for a win, if he missed 2, the raps have a “solid” win, if he missed 3 the raps “dominated the 1st half to win”. That’s how it rolls.
And if the raps played tighter D on him
we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Did you actually see the play? Again.. I’m going from memory right now, but I think he was defended adequately. Sometimes opposing players just make shots irregardless of what you do.
The way things were going, Cousins abusing AB and Reke making shots, ideally I’d want Casspi taking shots that were challenged. I thought it was defended ok, but he made the shots. I don’t remember an obvious missed rotation (without going to the replay).
So we are content with the mind frame that
any who plays the Raps are just superstars and we are lucky to even be in the game?
Comon it’s the Kings
The Raps have to stay mentally tough over these next 6 to 8 games
Let’s hope this is a microcosm of the season. Good effort, close game but just not enough punch to finish off. If they go 0 and 4 on this west coast swing, come home and lose to the Thunder and Bobcats (possible win) and then head back on the road to face Orlando/Miami…The Raps could be sitting 1-10 after that Miami game. It’s imperative that the coaching staff keep the team mentally tough. They aren’t going to win a lot of game, they just aren’t but if they can compete and earn the respect of their competitors, I think that will be the major positive of the season!!
Suspicous
I’m starting to think this thing that “Defensive Stance” and Franchise have going against Bargs is a set up. Kind of like dropping some bleeding bait into shark infested water. You know you’re going to get those sharks rippin.
Interesting that a few short weeks ago, the knock was that he would not be able to pick up Bosh’s scoring as this was obvious from the preseason. Now after only 3 games he is averaging 23 and no mention of that, rather lets talk about the rebounds. When he gets that up to around 6, then it will be someting else. As a matter of fact, I believe someone critized him a few weeks ago for not having enough assists.
So I’m suspicous that you guys are just pulling peoples chains here. Surely, you could not be that unfair and still call yourselves Raptor fans
Not trying to pull anyone's chain
Now after only 3 games he is averaging 23 and no mention of that, rather lets talk about the rebounds. When he gets that up to around 6, then it will be someting else.
IF Bargs gets to six rebounds per game, I will continue to complain because that would still make him one of the worst rebounding centres in the history of professional basketball. The fact that he’s only averaging three boards per game right now is laughable for a seven footer.
The bottom line is this: If you watched the 4th quarter of last night’s game and saw Bargs getting worked on the glass by Cousins, you can’t possibly make the case that he belonged on the floor during crunch time when every possession is critical. He’s a bench player on a decent team, capable of giving you scoring and nothing else… and it’s the “else” (rebounding, defence, etc.) that gives you wins.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 2, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Give it a rest.
Andrea was one of the best defensive players on the floor for the game and has been one of the best defensive players for the team this year. Your sanctimonious BS is getting old.
I hate to use a hockey analogy
but would you say a defensemen who can score like a forward, but can’t play defense is a good defensemen?
You wouldn't...
…if he was giving away a breakaway on the goalie every second possession or continually passing the puck in front of his own goal…
Allen Iverson can still score 20+ ppg… why is he playing in Turkey then?
Cause he doesn’t do the things teams need him to do to win…PERIOD
…if he was giving away a breakaway on the goalie every second possession or continually passing the puck in front of his own goal…
Does that describe the quality of play of any of the Raptors? I don’t believe it does.
AI could score… inefficiently, and he couldn’t really even defend one-on-one.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 3, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it does either...
But just because a guy is good at one aspect of the game doesn’t mean he is a good player…
You said you would call a hockey player who could score, a good hockey player…
Well no, if he does everything else terribly and is dumb as a post I’m sure you would say he was terrible…
" I would like a point guard who can dribble REALLY well… he can’t pass, doesn’t shoot, and has a 10 inch verticle, but he dribbles really well so he is a good basketball player…"
I think not…
lol I knew I opened a can of worms with that analogy, but my original post asked if said player would be a considered a good dman, not an overall hockey player. The obvious answer is no, if your dman can’t play d then he’s not much of a dman. I meant to paralel the fact that if your center can’t rebound or anchor the defense, then he is not a very good center. It’s great that he scores, but the Raps scored alot last year as well. I just don’t understand who taught him to play.
I would argue, watching rebounds fly by your 7’ head, is like giving away breakaways and passing in front of the net (keep in mind at least in hockey you still have a goaltender).
My post is in agreement with you PNUTZ...
I was bringing attention to the lack of a bigger picture dhackett1565 seems to have…
Just because he can score doesn’t mean he is good at the game as a whole.
Apparently, you conveniently didn’t watch the first 3 quarters when Bargnani was LOCKING DOWN Cousins and making him look like a fish out of water. Yea, he screwed up in the 4th Q, and I’m not even arguing that, it’s just annoying as hell when you choose to see the things you WANT to. You WANT Bargnani to fail, that much is evident from your posts.
What I will say is that Bargnani does need to crash the boards alot more aggressively and recognize rotations far sooner. I just don’t get why you’re so butthurt every time you can say something good about him. I hate making the conversation about him, but you’re literally just on the prowl to find something else to hate on. Even the boys at Raptors Republic gave Bargnani his props for handling Cousins well for most of the game. PS, even flow isn’t that far off. Bargs was definitely top notch for 3 quarters of the game.
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you
He stunk it up towards the end of the game, but to say his defence was short of outstanding on Cousins for most of the game, you’re not giving him enough credit.
I'll give him that Dave, but games are won in the 4th
and too often Bargs seems to disappear when it counts.
So kind of like how Chris Bosh played really good and hard for most of the season and then put himself on the bench when the Raptors really needed a few wins to get to the playoffs?
Yea, sounds MVP worthy to me…
Maybe Andrea should go be third option in Orlando…
LOL
Where’d MVP come from? I’m not claiming Bargnani’s even the best player on his own team, I’m just saying that credit should be given where it’s due.
Unfortunately Bargnani, as the team is currently dictating, is our MVP…
There is a reason he is always the first topic of discussion… Our offense would be abysmal without his numbers, but our defense can’t afford to be abysmal BECAUSE of his numbers…
But hey, I don’t think we should shoot the puppy for peeing on the rug, I think we should train him to pee on the neighbor’s rug…
guys cop this loss up to lack of talent and clutch players
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 2, 2010 11:07 PM EDT reply actions
Dear Reggie Evans...
In Dennis Rodman’s PEAK season he averaged just under 19 boards per game. Currently you are averaging over 16. If this was your attempt at going as Dennis Rodman for Halloween, you really should have added the piercings and hair dye. If in fact however, this is truly how you’ve decided to re-define yourself as a basketball professional and leave a legacy of rebounding awesomeness, please continue on as you are, and stick around in Toronto for a while cause you’re a freaking beast!
Sincerely,
Hopefully a long time fan.
p.s. Miami is much too hot for how cool you are so don’t even think about it…





























