Tip-In: Talent and Execution Issues Permeate Raptors 101 to 96 Loss to Bobcats
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 8:00 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
Email
PrintIt was a steal by Stephen Jackson that ended this one on the game's final play, but again, there were a myriad of factors that resulted in the Raptors sixth straight loss...
Before the season began I had pegged the Toronto Raptors to win 30 games.
Why?
Well for various reasons, including a more athletic group that minus Hedo, would do a better job defensively as a whole, and steps forward and more prominent roles for the likes of Sonny Weems and Amir Johnson.
They I saw the Raptors' first game of the season against the Knicks and promptly cut my estimate in half.
Now?
After the Raptors' 101 to 96 loss to the Bobcats last night, I'm wondering about halving that again.
Facts.
Fact 1: This is not a very talented team. I'm not going to say the least-talented team in the league, but I'd say it's gotta be close. (Minny??) We as Raptors' fans value names like Evans, Barbosa and Kleiza but it's debatable whether two of the three would even be in the league this year without the Raps, and even if they were, they would hardly be playing the key roles they currently are for this team. That should speak volumes, and that's without getting into guys like Julian Wright and David Andersen.
Without talent it's pretty tough to win.
Fact 2: This is not a very tough team, mentally or physically. Yes, Weems and Jack can play with a bit of a chip on their shoulder, and Kleiza and Evans aren't the "back-down" types, but the Pistons or Knicks of the 90's this team is not.
Toughness and grit can get you wins even in the absence of talent (see Scott Skiles clubs.) Without it or talent...
Fact 3: This team has no go-to scorer when the team needs a basket. Even bad teams like Washington (Wall), New Jersey (Lopez or Harris), Sacramento (Evans) etc, etc, typically have that one guy. He might be a new draftee surrounded by middling talent, but he's that designated guy.
In close games, you need your top guy to execute. Without a top guy, there typically is no execution, and little chance at closing out wins.
If you combine these three facts, plus the continuing defensive issues (the Bobcats were averaging under 90 points coming into this one), and add on a new propensity to turn over the ball too much (the team coughed it up three times in four straight late-game possessions), and you've got a team that in my best guess is going to struggle to get to even the 15 win mark.
And last night's match made this even more apparent.
Let's look at the final play.
Yes, terrible possession by Andrea but terrible possession by Toronto overall, and I actually thought Bargs had a solid game. He finished with 23 points and 9 rebounds, was aggressive all night, and while he had some defensive miscues late (Tyrus Thomas dominated the match-up whenever they faced off), this was a game where the Raps would have been screwed without him.
The last play according to Jay Triano was a two-option deal where Jose was going to try and turn the corner on the screen and if that wasn't there, he'd swing it back to Bargs for the 3-point attempt, hoping that Charlotte wouldn't be able to switch fast enough.
But they were, and that's when facts 1, 2 and 3 all culminated in one great Stephen Jackson steal.
Game over.
The Raps were close in this one and even held the lead for a brief period in the fourth quarter, but with about five minutes left you could just sense the unravel about to begin, and I predicted a four-point loss thanks to the culmination of our three previous facts.
So now what? Toronto has to head onto the road again, facing two extremely tough opponents in Miami and Orlando, and a Washington squad that's looking more and more daunting thanks to John Wall. (He had his first career triple-double last night.) As Triano said post-game, there are no easy games in the NBA but this is especially true for this Raptors' team.
However let's end this on a positive note as there are definite ways this team can improve.
For starters, the starters themselves. Kleiza and DeRozan were atrocious last night but even some semblance of production, even from one of them, would probably have been enough for a W. It's only been a few games but DeRozan needs to get back on track or it's time to move him to the bench.
Speaking of the bench, the crew of Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems and Julian Wright were the reason the Raps snatched the lead from the 'Cats and in fact the bench outscored the starters 49 to 47.
This can't keep happening and I'm still hoping Triano shakes things up.
(And in fact he might have to as Reggie Evans left late in the fourth with a hip injury, and was reportedly limping around the locker room post-game.)
All three need more time and when Ed Davis comes back, let's get him in the mix too.
After all, forget what Colangelo or MLSE is selling, this is what this year should be all about. See what pieces the team's got that can contribute to the success of the franchise in the future, and let them go to work.
But as The National Post's Bruce Arthur and I joked via Twitter post-game, the key here is Mr. Colangelo.
Can he leave well enough alone to ride this 3 wheeled car all the way to the draft lottery station?
We'll see.
188 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I agree, but....
Triano could do a much better job of managing in game rotations – that is for sure!
I also think that Johnson, Weems, Wright and Dorsey need to get minutes this year. I agree that guys like Evans, Barbosa and Anderson should be playing less. However, I think Evans and Barbosa should play for now to be showcased (Anderson should not play at all ,ever).
I also do not think that any of the young energy guys that you are calling for would be very good if they were inserted into the starting line up. They would look worse in the short term, and the guys that we moved to the bench would look better. We do not have guys that are currently good enough to be starters.
Bench players if they have decent attitudes will have the advantage of facing lesser talents, being fresher, knowing that they can go all out,, and having something to prove.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 9:18 AM EST reply actions
You don’t think Weems would perform at the same level as a starter as he does off the bench, or wouldn’t be an upgrade over DeRozan?
I get your point about the bench and starters being interchangeable, but my concern is that without putting a guy like Weems or Wright, or maybe even Davis, in the starting line-up, they’ll continue to lose minutes to guys like Andersen, Evans and Barbosa, who shouldn’t be part of this team’s future unless they play bit roles.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
So I get that the team wants to give Demar minutes so that his on-court game can develop. But I think his weakness is his lack of mental toughness. Demar needs to fight to get his minutes just like anyone else to toughen him up. If he can’t play, he can’t play. The kid needs some tough love.
by raptor rabid on Nov 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Totally agree…as much as the Raps need to get guys like him minutes, if he’s not deserving of more, don’t play him at the expense of guys like Weems who are performing.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Who are performing now
The memories are short, the fuses are quick. The one guy who deserves more playing time is Julian Wright but I’ve always suspected that Triano reached out to Byron Scott in the offseason, asked for input from a coach who didn’t think highly of Wright and had his opinion formed for him instead of forming it himself, or, as is the case with some of you on this board, had a few negative notions about the player and when mistakes were made in practice focused on those negatives at the expense of a more balanced perspective.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Great point about Scott…I’m getting that feeling too because I’ve seen nothing from Wright that would suggest he isn’t giving 100% even if he’s asked to jump in for only a minute or two.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
How about we change things up even more. I realise that Kleiza is hardly a beast on the boards by why not move Weems in as the starting SF and move Kleiza to the 4? Ideally we would move AB to the bench as the first player off the bench and have Davis/Evans as the starting 5.
My Starting five based on Performance and Building for the Future…
Okay so for me it looks like this…
1) I start Jose. Here’s the thing, we’re not expecting wins just good play and building for the future.
We need to get him into a rhythm and raise his trade value. Next year give the team to Jack when we have someone good to give him to work with.
2) Demar has proven he wants to get to the next level. He has taken instruction well and should continue to grow into a force. Yes "the Spin Cycle" is getting repetitive, but it shows he is trying to develop new moves. Again, the team is building so let him perfect one new weapon before he attempts to add another.
3) Sonny on very short tether. He gets carried away trying to look like a standout or he gets lazy on D, bring in Wright immediately. Maybe Mr. Weems will eventually just emerge as a standout without trying too hard, but somebody (maybe Reggie) has to tell him there is a different between maximum effort and trying to grab the spotlight.
4) Kleiza. Linus, a starting spot is yours to lose. Not flashy, but not without highlights. Not a stopper, but I’m sure he has an inner Lithuanian toughness to unleash some occasional fury. STOP TRAVELING AND MAKING BAD PASSES.
5) Amir provides length enough to bother half the 5’s he’ll face and enough fouls to slow the other half. He provides some scoring and can get up and down the floor with the guards. Once Ed Davis starts to show his merit Amir can have some reprieve from the bruising he will surely absorb. Amir will be a valuable bench guy on any team, even a contender, for most of his career.
The Replacements
PG – Jack
SG – Barbosa
SF – Wright / Bargnani
PF- Bargnani / Evans / Dorsey
C – Anderson / Davis / Evans
Key Notes: Evans at PF or C and Bargs at the 3 or 4 as situation warrants… Barbosa when surgery is done or traded bumps Weems back to bench relief 2 guard unless he makes decent improvement… Anderson and Barbosa and Jose should ship out giving Dorsey more floor time and hopefully getting either a LEGIT Center and a solid backup PG or a top level PG (sorry Jarrett) and a SOLID center
It is a serious consideration that if we get solid rotational defenders in the paint (somewhat like what Camby turned into) it won’t matter if Bargnani moves to the 3 Spot (where he would be a nightmare to defend) and would get blown by just as much as Weems and Kleiza currently are…
by Mikthaniel on Nov 10, 2010 10:48 AM PST reply
agree/disagree
i’d start: Calderon at the point (for the same good reason as you point out, build up his trade value & hence build for the future), DeMar at the 2 (but it hurts that he has zero 3PT game and from what i’ve heard can’t even hit jumpers), Kleiza at the 3, Evans at the 4 b/c he’s a rebounding machine, and split time between Ed Davis/Amir Johnson at the 5
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 12, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Too bad about the game
This one was definitely available for the Raptors to win if they could have executed better. It seemed like every time they would tie the game they would miss the next few shots and let the Bobcats build the lead back up to to 4 or 6, before rallying once more. On the plus side they kept coming back, but on the minus side they kept having lapses.
Positives from the game were that Amir seems to be getting back into the groove and Wright showed a lot of hustle and pretty decent athleticism. Weems also was a plus for me, although when he is your go to guy down the stretch you are not a good team.
I am wondering the same thing as you and B. Arthur. Does Colangelo have the restraint necessary to ride out this season and start a proper bottom up rebuild? I certainly hope so.
Unfortunately, I figure BC is the kinda guy that just can’t sit on his hands, and absolutely has to do something.
Hopefully, he can direct his energies into making intelligent, long term trades, by moving expiring contracts, the TPE and players like Barbosa for youth and picks.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
I agree. Ideally, he will realized that this year is a write off and dedicate himself to scouting and acquiring young assets for the long term.
I actually think BC does not exercise enough patience. He is always aquiring players who are under contract for a while that other teams do not want.
He should only use expirings and TPE to add players if they have huge upside. We have enough projects and marginal talent here already. Peole only trade players easily if they make too much money, get hurt a lot, or have terrible attitudes or low IQ.
Patience Colangelo, patience. Go after picks. Let the TPE expire if you have to. Do not take on somebodye else’s mistake.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
I’m preaching “patience Young Jedi” here too for BC.
In the past he’s made some panicky fence swings when things didn’t work (the Marion deal being the most egregious of the bunch) and what scares me is that this team could easily be 1 and 11 soon.
Then what?
I think the fans and readers here understand that this season may just have to be a 15 win one but if the casual folks get in an uproar, does MLSE/BC push the panic button?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
I’m thinking that the casual fans do not give a flying fart about this team when they are losing. Ticket sales might go down, but there will be no uproar. So long as a profit is turned (and somehow I don’t doubt BC will be able to turn that trick), the panic button will remain well dusted.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure this year.
Last night the attendance was apparently just over 14,000…that’s bad even for the Hoffa-Mike James era…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is that he thinks he's smarter than he is.
I’d prefer a stupid GM who at least knows he’s stupid (or a smart one if I can dream for a moment) – Colangelo is far too bold and if we want to make him a poker player – he’ll enter every pot no matter the price but will weakly fold on the flop or turn to save his money for another ill-advised pre-flop call. With his inflated sense of self-worth, he always thinks there’s a sucker out there that he can swindle, some player that he can pick up on the cheap while giving up something some team overvalues.
What helps facilitate so many trades is that BC often winds up in an equally matched battle of wits with similarly moronic GMs trying to mop up after their own wastefulness. Each GM realizes his own player is awful/overpaid but the thought apparently doesn’t occur about the target. The result is typically a swap of equally bad players, a nice change of scenery, but most importantly something to talk about and the creation of a fallback excuse when things go predictably wrong. “The roster just hasn’t had time to gel, just you wait!”
At least most recently (Turkoglu-Barbosa) we got the smaller contract which is a refreshing change from the bloodbath that was the CV/TJ/JO/Marion string of failed trades.
I can’t believe people wanted to extend this man – my source being some poll from the offseason. 8 games in and we can see how much of a miserable failure all of that wheeling and dealing was. Same story year after year after an offseason flurry – you can’t outargue the optimists, but all you have to do is wait a few games to be proven right.
So bang on...
I’ve been fed up with Colangelo since the kapono signing… Yet, he continues to have his apologists around these parts (not coincidentally the same people that blindly continue to support Bargnani). I can’t believe this club is going to extend this guy….
Preach on Bigweeze, preach on.
Great poker analogy too.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
colangelo / triano?
how bad is triano as a coach? as bad as some of colangelo’s moves have been like investing in kleiza and a hurt barbosa, it seems like anyone could get more mileage out of this team even if their margin of error is small
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 12, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
Coaching
The team is so untalented that no matter what lineups they throw out there they’re going to lose a lot of games.
Having said that, Triano still baffles me. Starting Reggie over Amir leaves them shorthanded on offense for much of the game. I’m not loving the Kleiza era so far. He’s not a bad player but I’d rather Weems start in his place and work on his game, which actually has decent upside. And Triano is still failing to recognize the hot hand (in last night’s case Weems and Wright over DeRozan and Kleiza) and ride it out.
This was a winnable game and coaching factored heavily in the loss. And while I’m not too worried about wins and losses this year, you have to wonder if this club can ever be any good under Triano.
The best thing that Triano can do is set a culture where hard work in practice and in games gets rewarded. This season is looking more and more like a write off, but if it is going to be useful at all in the long term then the young players have to get the message about playing “the right way” and giving 100% effort.
Benjibopper – I was lamenting your point during the chat and on Twitter last night. Jay’s got his guys playing hard for him, but why on earth did he re-insert DeRozan for Wright at the end? Yeah, DeRozan had a nice dunk, but generally he was useless on the evening and Wright had a major impact!
Someone asked him post-game about the decision and he did the typical “we were fine with it as a coaching staff” response.
Sorry Jay, that’s not good enough.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Playing Wright over DeRozan
Franchisek, in one point you’re saying above we need to play the young guys for development and to figure out what we have. Then you’re saying we should sit DeRozan (the youngest guy with the most potential on this team) for Wright? i don’t get this.
Franchise you’ve been pretty harsh on DeRozan over the last few posts for his play and playing time, but isn’t that the point this year? Unless you’ve already decided DeRozan is not a keeper (which is an entirely different discussion). Who the hell cares if we beat the freaking Bobcats!?!?! Let DeRozan play! Development and draft positioning should be the ONLY objectives this season.
I agree, let him play. But Wright is no old-timer. He needs minutes too, especially since a decision needs to be made on whether to keep him at the end of the year.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
See my comment above as yes, I realize it sounds contradictory. I want to see DeRozan play, yes, but not at the expense of other young guys (especially Weems) who are playing better basketball.
I’m going to lump Wright in here.
Why?
Because he never got much burn in NO and I think he’s the type of guy who could make a nice role player on this team in the future. If he’s playing well, let him go.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on Wright, but more importantly, I agree about what Wright represents: if we let him play, but only because he’s earned it, and he improves, it sets a good precedent for what we need to do going ahead, namely allowing the players to sort out who gets to play based solely on their performance. If guys know that the only thing that matters is bringing it every single day, that is the culture that will take over. If we coddle them or give them too much too easily, we run the risk of creating the exact opposite culture of entitlement.
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 11, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
from New Orleans on JuJu
Wright is not good – some nights he can hit the jumper but he’s basically DeMar DeRozan sans the (reputationally – i haven’t seen him play in person) freakish athleticism. which is to say, he’s athletic enough but skills-wise his development is done beyond repair and he’s D-League material
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 12, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
Totally disagree.
Weems has a much higher basketball IQ, better athlete, better shooter, better defender, better passer…in fact I can’t name one thing that I think DD does or will do better than Sonny.
I remember having this conversation with some of the Toronto press in a game near the end of the season. There wasn’t one of us who didn’t think that essentially the Raptors 9th overall pick turned out to be Weems, and their “throw-in that might have upside” on the Carlos Delfino trade was more like DeRozan.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
I like Weems, but when I watch him play I sometimes find myself questioning his decision-making.
As far as playing time, I think last night was a good example where he played well and was given plenty of court time as a result. I think he is getting himself on track. We will see plenty more of him if he repeats that kind of performance.
That said, I think you want DeRozan to get plenty of burn this season and see if his learning curve keeps going up. It’s not like the wing position is overcrowded right now with Barbosa injured and Kleiza possibly hurting, too.
Totally disagree on this one Franchise
While you may be correct that Weems is better in a few areas right now, I think Weems is much closer to his max as a pro ball player right now than DeRozan is.
I mean come on, Weems is THREE years older and has a year over DeRozan as far as NBA experience.
Weems
I mean come on, Weems is THREE years older and has a year over DeRozan as far as NBA experience.
That year of experience – are you referring to the 55 minutes he played.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
So that's another point
He wasn’t fit to be drafted in the first round or get any playing time in Denver… But he comes to Toronto and he should be given priority over our lottery pick!?
Weems over DeRozan
.
Who’s advocating Sonny start over Demar – certainly not me. We have a bi-polar fan base, so expect some odd opinions – even when they turn out right. I think teams are simply adjusting to DD, and Demar’s not compensating – at least not yet.
.
What bothers me, is not so much Demar’s play, but how fans are viewing him after 8 games. Sophomore season woes happen all the time. Being as the Raps need his scoring, the pressure is on. That’s why I didn’t like all that Young Guns crap. Until you’ve proven yourself, stfu is my motto. Same goes for Jack being a Leader. Learn to be unselfish, and maybe the Leader tag will follow.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
I was originally responding to Franchise's post
Where I believe he was advocating Weems over DeRozan…
That makes no sense. Just because Weems was a throw in for Delfino doesn’t dominish the fact he is playing better basketball right now (and most of last year) than Derozan. This is starting to sound like AB apology. Maybe how you should be looking at it is that Derozan cannot hold off a guy who wasn’t fit to be drafted in the first round maybe he doesn’t deserve to be a pro. I know it is too early for that but coddling DD by handing him minutes he doesn’t deserve is not going to help him. Maybe he needs a good ass kicking/benching to wake him up and get him to understand what his role needs to be.
Like AB apology? AB has had 5 years to get his shit together. DeRozan is 1 season and 8 games into his career.
My main point here is as follows: This team blows goats, therefore the only objective should be to play the young players to develop and assess what we have. DeRozan wa a lottery pick based on potential but need to develop. Therefore he should get playing time this season. One plus one is two.
DeRozan
.
I agree – DD needs time. But I also believe we need to maintain a level of veterans, and not just be a young team.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is that if he sucks he sucks. This team has handed him playing time like its pez and he has not met expectations on a consistent basis. If Weems is better now, then play him now and maybe DD could get more comfortable against inferior players on other teams benches. Why try and force it when you don’t have to. Give him the minutes he deserves instead of the minutes you want him to deserve.
agreed
I love DD No homo , he is a great player and I hope he becomes a great player but he isnt one rigth now and until he earns his spot on the court he shouldnt play I have a feeling bad coaching cough Triano cough will ruin his career
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 12, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
Talk about short term memory
Do you not remember Weems from just 2 games ago who jacked up shots left and right, didn’t give a shit on defence and maybe completed 2 passes all game? The dude’s good in transition, Derozan is far more potent in the half court.
My main reasons for playing Derozan over Weems are age and contract status. Derozan is younger and controlled for 2 years beyond this one while I believe Weems is a UFA.
I don’t tend to distinguish between the two in terms of natural talent/ceiling because both are similarly athletic and neither is particularly refined yet. I do like Weems’ bball instincts better than Derozan’s, but I could see the argument that Derozan becomes a more polished offensive player in time.
It’s very understandable that Derozan gets time ahead of Weems, but my preference is really to play them both more and let them work things out on the court.
my comment got mixed up
I was putting +1000 on MAS11. Comments not yours francise lol but I disagree bout weems and Derozan. Deronzan to me has a higher ceiling than weems..hell he played better than weems all summer league, most of preseason..and the beginning of this season. Weems MIGHT be better now but by looking at body of work I say derozan will be the better player.
by sherwin316 on Nov 11, 2010 6:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Based on Summer League and Pre-season? Really? There is no debate that Derozan might have a higher ceiling but tons of guys wash through the NBA with all the talent in the world while getting out played by guys with low ceilings. Want an example. Brandon Roy vs Andrea Bargnani. Case closed.
how is that case closed?
And how is that a case close? I’m just pointing out the fact that demar up until this last stretch of games HAS out played weems. From summer league to preseason even the beginning of this season point blank period. Idk where your getting this cuddling thing from so far DD has EARNED his playing time it wasn’t forced on him like last year. And like most of us too me anyways DD has the higher ceiling. Pure and simple.
by sherwin316 on Nov 12, 2010 8:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Klieza
Kleiza is trying to play with an Achilles heal injury.
It seems to me that is is really hurting his game, depending on how much it is bothering him an any given night.
I don’t think Triano really wants to shut him down and/or put Barbosa, whose wrist injury from last year is bothering him, under the knife and lose them both for an extended period of time.
I am sure that this is a decision has been and continues to be thoroughly discussed by all involved.
Just over the wire – Jarrett and Reggie probable for next game but Kleiza doubtful and Barbosa didn’t even make the trip…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
He's here for 5 years.
Why not just get him healthy so that he can contribute when the winning starts. If Triano is playing injured players the decision should not be his to make. They are not winning as is, so having Kleiza and Barbosa sit or go under the knife will only help the team IN THE LONG TERM
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Kleiza is here for 4 years, for the record.
But I agree – take the losses, get our players right.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, but (part 2)
Can’t stop talking…
Anderson should not be out there even if he outplays other people, because his ceiling is just too low and he is never going to develop trade value beyond being an expiring contract. However, in the short term give, Evans and Barbosa some more run, so they can be dealt ASAP.
I would be very happy with an expiring and a pick (1st, 2nd – whatever/whenever). Neither guy is good enough that they NEED to be a part of the team’s future.
I know some people will argue that Barbosa is too good to be traded for almost nothing, but in my eyes, he could only net another serviceable player, and we have no need for serviceable players. This team sucks and must rebuild. The problem is that there are too many role players on this team. Clear him out, and give time to other guys to become better role players or maybe even starters down the road.
Please do not say that we need something good for Barbosa, to make up for Hedo’s signing. BC Fd up royally, and it is time to move on.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions
This is definitely the right attitude on Andersen, and makes me want to give an addendum to my previous comment. I want guys to play based on production, but only when there is actual potential current and future benefit. David Andersen might, arguably, make us a tiny bit better team on a good night. But for any benefit he brigns, he costs us more by robbing court time from others.
Free Solomon Alabi!
by RaptorsAddict on Nov 11, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
How the heck is he not in the D-league right now, if he’s not going to play? What is the plan here?
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a great question…my only guess is that they’re waiting for Ed Davis to return first.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
But why? Until the recent injury bug hit, he was a healthy scratch every game (except one, I think, where he got a couple minutes).
by dhackett1565 on Nov 12, 2010 8:00 AM EST up reply actions
Just the way Donaghy done it
No calls on reach-ins (reggie early where it went out of bounds, even on the big ‘steal’) or over the back, wave off a few easy raptor buckets, no and-ones, let the ‘star’ go off, disrupt the rythym early, manage the spread.
Not saying anyone else is wrong about their observations, but the one ref, tall bald white guy had his own agenda or is severely lacking reffing talent.
Agreed – but it was close enough that any bias in reffing would have a significant effect on the end result.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
How about this...
Evans and Barbosa to Denver for Kenyon Martin and a Denver draft pick???
KMart could be waived/bought out.
Then the Raptors have more minutes to open up for other players.
Denver needs some depth and rebounding at the forward spots. Reggie could earn 10-15 minutes a night there. George Karl hates JR Smith, and probably rightfully so, I have more mature kids in my Grade 4 class. Barbosa could get some run along side Billups (and Anthony for now). If Anthony leaves, Barbosa would probably opt out next year and cost Denver nothing.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 9:28 AM EST reply actions
Hey, if Denver was open to it, I’d do it in a flash. Don’t even think I’d waive K-Mart – he’d increase the Raps’ “tough factor” exponentially. and I actually think the team would improve with his post-D.
The key would be the pick though.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I suspect you’d almost have to waive Martin in that scenario. He would UN-happy playing for a team with no chance at 30 wins, much less a playoff spot.
This format of trade reminds me how sad it is that the savviest moves our last few GMs are capable of are:
1) Trade waste of cap space for waste of cap space with smaller contract, buy him out.
2) Trade waste of cap space with 1 more year remaining and draft pick for expiring waste of cap space.
Folks, these are the types of moves that win championships.
As for this deal – without his shot, Barbosa is a useless player despite being really fast at running. Another year of him at 6-7m is rather prohibitive. Meanwhile, Reggie Evans is actually useful in spot duty but is Denver really good enough to reap the benefits of a one-dimensional role player?
Nobody is taking Barbosa until he has surgery, so what are we waiting for?
I’m not a huge fan of buyout’s, but if it got us a high pick I’d do it. The reality is that alot of teams have TPE’s, but only a few have large ones. So we are only going to get a decent pick if it needs to be included to rid some team of a bad large contract. Unfortunately, that will most likely mean that we don’t want that player either, and if that player limits the opportunity for our young players to grow, I’d be fine with buying him out.
Barbosa definitely needs to go get his surgery as we aren’t winning, he isn’t helping, and he job security for another couple years.
I was basically considering Barbosa dead weight on a 2 year contract. His only value right now is entertainment due to the fact that he can actually get shots off because of his speed/length – but then negated by his lack of conversion.
It really ends up being a Martin/Evans deal, with 10+ million of Brazilian ballast going their way.
I don’t think there’s any way we can reasonably get a high draft pick. We have no assets to trade. If you want a high pick you have to get it from a bad team. And that requires predicting who the bad teams are – if you can do it, odds are that they know they are bad too. I don’t think that bad teams are eager to trade their good picks away (except for the Leafs).
Even if you could snag a good pick from a bad team, how much would you pay? A low first seems to run $3m, is a #10 worth something like $10-15m? Seems reasonable, but is that something a team would ever do or ownership would ever allow? I don’t think that’s the type of deal we’re ever likely to see. The best thing to do is actually to save teams from the luxury tax – they are saving double what it costs you, so you get slightly higher compensation than normal.
How about this part 2
The Raptors would need to throw in a tiny bit more salary to get close enough to being able to take Kenyon Martin AND A PICK off Denver’s Hands.
How about adding David Anderson or Marcus Banks. It would work either way. Denver could waive either of these expirings if they have no use for them.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 9:38 AM EST reply actions
Ha!
However while folks pile on Bosh for his play in Miami, I think it’s worth pointing out now just how important he was to this team.
Is he in the same realm as LeBron or even someone like Monta Ellis?
No…but in the same way that Amar’e is now crucial to the Knicks, so was Bosh to the Raps in terms of having a chance on a given night.
Because as Gerald Wallace pointed out post-game, other than minus Bosh, the team is pretty much the same in many ways.
Gulp.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t – and i’m a Bosh fan – he only came on as a game winner type guy the last two years. He had great value in that refs would call the respect foul on a game winner and his excellent free throw shooting sealed a few. But I remember early on a knock on him was his unclutchiness.
I was at the game against GSW with my kids. At the end of the game my son turns to me and says “I miss Bosh”. It definately wouldn’t be worse with him here.
by raptor rabid on Nov 11, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Remember the last game Bosh played against GSW? That ended well…
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
help me out on this
How was the Raps record with Cris Bosh but without the “Euraptors”?
Help me out on this!
Since we’re examining history…Where would this team have ended up if instead of Colangelo paying and wasting draft picks on Euroraptors they speant the money on legitimate NBA talent?
There’s a great blog post MAS11…what happens if BC doesn’t blow the bank on Kapono, doesn’t move this pick or that, etc, etc.
Revisionist history, but I think it’s warranted in this case since so many folks questioned the decisions at the time. Not like anyone penciled the Raps in for an NBA title once Bargs or DeRozan were drafted…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with revisionist history is that the formula always boils down to “let’s replace reality with some alternative best case scenario”. For example, say you drafted Roy instead of Bargnani, who’s to say Roy isn’t injury prone in Toronto or he and Bosh hate eachother or whatever. Alternatively, maybe Bargnani develops a great relationship with Nate McMillan and turns into a much better player in Portland than he has become in Toronto. All the wishful thinking scenarios are based on everything going right and really don’t amount to much more than one of Colangelo’s projected 50 win seasons.
I doubt Bargnani would’ve developed a great relationship with McMillan. More like he would’ve been benched or his playing time would better reflect his on-court contributions. And even with Paul Allen throwing around money like Pacman Jones at a strip club, he probably wouldn’t have been dumb enough to give someone a $50-million extension when the team is -11 points with that guy on the floor.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, maybe some coaching from McMillan would actually have helped Bargnani improve in those areas, or at least been able to minimize his weaknesses, to allow him to become a positive-contribution factor?
I’m not saying it would have, but this is why I hate ‘what-ifs’ – there are infinite variables.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 12, 2010 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
I think the more interesting point would be, what if we had kept Hibbert instead of dealing him for JO and Kangaroo Jack?
Hibbert
.
Pacers aside, we would have never picked Hibbert.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Not great…if you’re looking at the Hoffa years for instance the team had 33 and 27 wins but arguably had less talent around Bosh, who was just starting to come into his own.
The Raptors at present with a slightly better supporting cast are on pace for 10.25 wins.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair, the rest of the season won’t be half made up of a west coast swing, unlike the first 8 games.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Now Monta Ellis is WHOLE LEVEL above Bosh???
What happened to you, man?
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Amar'e & Bosh
No…but in the same way that Amar’e is now crucial to the Knicks, so was Bosh to the Raps in terms of having a chance on a given night.
You’re right …. Amar’e is the same as Bosh.
Crucial?
He might get NY into the play-offs, but that’s about it. The Knick fans suffered for 2 or 3 years, and ended up with what we had – a talented player that will take them nowhere. A oft-injured talent at that.
.
Bosh being Bosh, I suspect his Championship ring (if & when), will not feel the same as 3rd banana. He’s too proud, and being in the Wade/Lebron limelight will weigh on him. For 14.5 million (and a NBA ring), I’d find myself being okay though.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I know it’s early in the season, but is this not the 2nd time (at least) that Bargnani has posted a decent fantasy line while getting completely exposed and destroyed in the closing minutes? Sactown being the other game I’m thinking of.
Honestly, at what point is Triangelo going to decide that this guy does not belong on the floor in the closing minutes of a tight ballgame? How many losses need to pile up before you finally admit that this guy does not do the little things (like, ummm, defend) that win games?
So frustrating… But I am comforted by thoughts of that top 3 pick. Oddly enough, if things remain the same for the balance of the season, Bargs could be our Bizarro MVP of the season for his ability to prevent winning.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 10:36 AM EST reply actions
Gonna disagree with you a bit on this D Stance. I actually thought Bargs, aside from a few miscues, was really solid last night, maybe his best overall game yet in my books. Can he do this against the Heat or Magic? That’s more my concern.
That being said, I think that last play showed just how far off from Dirk he is…Nowitzki loves those moments and already has a game-winner this season in similar fashion.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
After 5 years
I believe he being on or off has little to do with the opponent
I though the whole last play was crap, and Jose’s terrible pass set him up to be stripped as soon as he caught it. It was still a failure on his part, but my immediate reaction was disgust at the team, not him for coughing it up.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
From Raptorblog a minute ago on Twitter
scottcarefoot: According to 82games.com, TOR is -11.1 pts per 100 possessions when Bargnani is on court, +8.5 pts per 100 when off court.
Think that’s all that needs to be said on that…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnanin whether you think should be or not, and whether you are right or not (I think you are) is on the court when the games are still being decided. The Raptors suck as a team. Period. His laziness is partially to blame for that, but they would suck even if he played better, and he would still be in the negative because he is on the court with a bunch of guys that are not good enough to beat other teams. When he is off the court, the other team is often in let-down mode.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
No worries, Bargs — the Raptors don’t pay attention to anything beyond scoring average. Advanced stats? What’s that?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 3:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So our starters < other team's starters
This isn’t news.
ummm maybe not
Just to put that in a little context, the PER for each of the starters:
JJ – 16.66
DD – 9.77
LK – 8.05
RE – 10.13
AB – 16.90
Even the most rabid AB haters have to acknowledge that when you have to spend the majority of your time playing with 3 players with a PER of 10.00 or under, its going to be hard to have a positive +/-.
Even Flow's stats
Thanks even flow, that is exactly what I said, but did not have the stats to prove it.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think the thing you are glossing over here is that AB’s per is barely better than Jacks who makes half as much money and everyone knows is really a backup PG. You should be furious that our alleged best player has a Per of only 16.9. That is a disgrace.
Bargnani is actually has the worst because those are negative numbers, but I stand by the fact that his PER would be beetter than it is, if he was playing with better players (so would everybody’s on the team). I also think it would be better if he was not a starter, and not always out there in crunch time. That is when he and the rest of the tean get exploited. He and everybody else on the team is just not good enough.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 12, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I thought that was the negative # that Franchise was looking at per 100 possessions. I was not paying attention to the stat names.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 12, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Credibility & Bias
.
Credibility – the quality or power of inspiring belief.
Credibility refers to the objective and subjective components of the believability of a source or message.
.
Bias – In statistics, bias is systematic favoritism present in data collection, analysis or reporting of quantitative research
Bias – an attitude that you have that makes you treat someone in a way that is unfair or different from the way you treat other people
.
[" I see [citizen journalists] freely mixing opinion with factual reporting in obvious ignorance of how this is a conflict of ambition,"]
[" If citizen journalism becomes mainstream, then it too will be criticized for not being trustworthy," he notes. "At the moment it’s getting a free ride." ]
Jack Kapica (advisor to DigitalJournal.com). Canadian journalist with almost 40 years experience. Former writer / editor for Montreal Gazette and Globe & Mail.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
The best part is people actually believing that entire statistical systems like Wages of Wins have been built solely to discredit Bargnani. And absolutely nothing is based on what you can clearly see with two eyes.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Credibility
Really wasn’t referring to Wages of Win. Was referring to credibility, and how your biased perspective, impacts your analysis (and credibility), whether it be Bargnani, or any other member of the Raptors. As for statistics, if I want to use them the way I need to use them, I can make you a Journalistic star one day, and a Journalistic idiot the next. It’s all in how one feels. And as Jack Kapica stated about online (citizen) journalism – professionalism doesn’t have the same standards.
.
Suffice to say DS – at some point people get tired of the same old drab thinking. They then tune it out. A Bargnani viral post may draw you more visitors, but as with the law of diminishing returns, visitors bypass comments, and eventually never return. And with the growing number of Raptor sites, it becomes like a bar – you go elsewhere, because it’s more entertaining, and dynamic. Khandor excepted.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
RapthoseLeafs
You and other Bargs blowers keep responding to cold hard facts and statistcis with “I(we) will go elsewhere” like your trying to blackmail the HQ team into silence on Bargnani- Yet you keep hanging around like a bad stink. You keep coming back and continue to post the same tired “you’re just soo mean to Bargnani” arguments without dealing with any of the statistical analysis or providing any descenting arguments.
Please, I challange you. Go somewere else. Find a site that doesn’t excoriate Bargnani for being a terrible rebounder and a siv on defense. Then come back here and tell us all about how they are so level headed and great journalists.
You know why I’m so confident to challange you to go out there find such a site? BECAUSE IT DOESN"T EXIST! Every pundit, blogger, reporter etc. etc. holds Bargnani in the same regard.
Maybe you can start one for the two or three Bargnani appologists that are left and you can guys can talk about how unfair everyone is to Bargnani till your blue in the face.
Good comeback Potsie
.
See, this is the thing MAS11. You resort to “Barg blowers” to enhance your point. Try to be less juvenile next time. You tend to be on the extreme, and then define me as the other side (fanboy). Your purgative I guess, but I still hold Bargnani accountable for his actions. I just don’t take a smaller percentage of a game, and define him as crap, as you and DS do.
.
And to clarify one point, I still like Franchise. At times he has the DS trojan in his system, but when he gets away from that crap, I actually like reading his opinions. DS – I just skim by, and MISS anything that might actually be worth reading. That’s my real point, when it comes to all this. Same thing for you – as soon as I hear Andrea’s name, I keep going. Not because I’m afraid to hear anything bad about him, but because you let your hate interfere with analysis. I do want to learn, just not from the likes of guys like you and DS. You’re not what I would call professional journalistic types. You’re the Perez Hilton of the Sports World. As someone else has said, maybe the Fox News would be more appropriate. Fox has good ratings, because trash tends to draw the voyeuristic sadists out there.
.
I’m also inclined to see you (and DS), as not real fans of this club. You can dispute this, and come up with some great line, but I would suspect that a few Commentators feel the same way. And if you think that makes certain fans delusional, then welcome to the world of Toronto. We’ve been delusional since 1967 – the Jays being the only blip since then.
.
We know we’re a crap team, and we know what needs to happen (draft, Expirings etc), but I’d like to try and enjoy what minimal talent we have. Not sit there like some wanna be basketball player past his prime, and make judgments. As for whether Bargs would play on a Contender, that is completely irrelevant. We’re not a Contender, and right now, Bargs is our best Offensive player. Stats are for Statisticians – not Karl Rove types trying to put a favourable spin on why Bush was a dynamic President.
.
But yes, I do come here to continue reading. And my statement was not blackmail, or some veiled threat. It’s simple a perspective of what could happen, if crap keeps interfering with the true purpose of these blogs – to educate and have sound debates. We all get you hate AB. Just stop saying it over and over and over and over and over again.
.
F*@king tired of that.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Your purgative I guess, but I still hold Bargnani accountable for his actions. I just don’t take a smaller percentage of a game, and define him as crap, as you and DS do.
It`s funny how effort, defence, rebounding, passing, etc are considered a smaller percentage of the game.
I`m constantly referencing statistics and actual game situations when referring to Bargnani.
I don`t understand how you expect to have a conversation or debate about a team while completely ignoring a guy who is the second highest paid player, plays the most minutes, takes the most shots and is constantly pushed as the supposed franchise player. It`s completely unrealistic.
Since you`re such a fan of professional journalistic types, I hear Doug Smith has a very insightful blog…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Context
It`s funny how effort, defence, rebounding, passing, etc are considered a smaller percentage of the game.
I did not say any such thing. I was referring to a comment about Bargs playing very good for 80% of the game (I think Franchise might have said that), and how you pointed out with much fanfare – how he was useless for that 20%. Three of the starters combined for 10 points. I guess they played 100%.
I`m constantly referencing statistics and actual game situations when referring to Bargnani.
So why do you say Bargs shouldn’t be on the floor in the last minutes, when Clutch stats from last year say different. I read stats too. And yes, this is a different year – No Bosh. Thing is, no real stats man would make a complete statement using 10% of the results (for this year)
I don`t understand how you expect to have a conversation or debate about a team while completely ignoring a guy who is the second highest paid player, plays the most minutes, takes the most shots and is constantly pushed as the supposed franchise player. It`s completely unrealistic.
Think about that for a minute. 8 million is our 2nd highest salary. Check your stats, and you’ll find Toronto is amongst the lowest in that situation. I can’t recall when I looked it up, but I think they’re are maybe 5 or 6 teams that have their 2nd highest player earning less than Bargs. It’s more a reflection of our talent (or talent that hasn’t proven itself). You call it an albatross, I beg to differ.
.
And I have NEVER, EVER, said Bargs was our Franchise player. You keep referencing that – not me. You’re the one fixated on that descripiton. Just like you’re fixated on the #1 draft thing. The NBA made a serious rule change, and we got f*@ked by it – Get over it.
With Bargs, I simply think he’s a part of the puzzle. I don’t believe you get the Star first and build around him. I believe you build, and hope the Franchise player eithers arrives, or develops. As for AB’s minutes, I believe he should be playing 30-32 minutes a game … NOT 38-40.
Since you`re such a fan of professional journalistic types, I hear Doug Smith has a very insightful blog…
Yes, I read Doug. He actually has some points that make me think. I don’t ignore perspectives simply because they show Raptor favouritism. Mistakes are made, and analysis flawed, when your visuals are always through a tunnel.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
Bargs Blowers?
Really? Why’s it have to get personal. I tuned you out once you wrote that.
Some questions
Could someone look up Bargs minutes played and usage rate his first two years and juxtapose that against the usage rate of other first overall picks.
Would Bargs be putting up 25 & 10 type numbers regularly if the team was in the position to feed him all the minutes a first overall pick is usually afforded in their first year.
This is a question that may not be answerable but it’s interesting.
To be honest I would be okay with a completely bad year (even though it will cost me $900) if a few things are accomplished:
1. Over the course of the year give the young players enough playing time to identify whether or not they have “it” to contribute to a winner in some capacity (even as role players).
2. Maximize future flexibility for a post lockout CBA by moving as many contracts as possible of the players the team doesn’t see contributing in 3 years to a strong contender (Barbosa is still young enough to be a contributor to such a situation as a strong 6th man so unless you can get something that projects to be better than that, I would just allow him to get his surgery and come back when absolutely healthy)
3. Teach the players that will be here for the long haul the winning habits even in losing, so that when the opportunities to win on a consistent basis present themselves, they will know how to capitalize on them effectively (this is the difference between good teams and great/championship level teams)
4. Either commit to the coach for the long term, if he is seen as a contributor to championship level play, or hire a teaching coach who will see that steps 1,2, and 3 are properly implemented until the championship level coach (David Blatt???) is available to move this team to the “next” level.
Honestly, if Hubie Brown wanted to coach just a little bit, I would pay whatever it took to bring him in for the rest of this year and next, bring Blatt in as his equally paid assistant next year and then hand the reigns over to Blatt.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
I forget if I looked at his usage rate in his first two years this off-season, but I did look at it last year and I think the year before, and for all the moans of “he doesn’t get enough touches,” he had a higher usage rate than a lot of studs like David West etc if I do recall.
I’ll double check though and look at first year numbers…it’s an interesting question.
However I think the bigger issue is still productivity. Guys like Adam Morrison and Corey Brewer got tons of minutes on bad teams and still weren’t great players whereas guys like JJ Redick and James Harden didn’t, yet forced their way into major roles because they simply were good players.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Good players allowed to do the things they were best at and used to doing
vs. a player asked to assume a new position and learn a new language at the same time.Brewer probably looked better coming into the draft because he played with Noah and Horford (both of whom make their teams better) I know there are some teachers out there who contribute to this board, and I know this would be a difficult number to arrive at, but if one were to view Bargs as an ESL student, how much longer would his development window have been anyway?
Anyway, I’ll just watch this whole season play out before I draw hard and fast conclusions about his talent and hope some of you will do the same.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Funny to say this, but the Raps have bigger problems than Bargnani right now. Like how we managed to cobble together a roster full of players with not one good enough to win 6th man of the year even if we made that our only goal for the season.
Great point weeze…still think Bargs is one of the root issues here but as to my post yesterday morning, it’s a much bigger picture; one that has a GM taking a franchise with upside and reducing it to rubble without much immediate hope.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Upside?
Clarify
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
He’s probably referring to caps space, Bosh, and the top overall draft pick in 2006.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 11, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm
It’s not like the cupboard was stocked with super star talent when he got here.
What super star calibre talent would that cap space have been able to sign in that particular year, and given the resulting wins in the year following that summer, I would say he made the best possible use of the available cap space. Love him or hate him Bargs is still one of the better picks from that draft, and Bosh was coming off contributing to a very bad team anyway.
Point being, Colangelo took a franchise with some flexibility and maximized the situation in what turned out to be the short term but you guys can’t go back to that summer and honestly say he didn’t do the best with the hand he was dealt. They won their division so didn’t get one of the higher picks in the Oden/Durant draft. It’s gotten to the point where some seem hell bent on revising the whole story because they disagree with the situation as it sits right now.
Welcome to the Fox News Raptors Board.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Franchise: … taking a franchise with upside …
HQ Interloper: Upside?
dhackett: … caps space, Bosh, and the top overall draft pick in 2006.
HQ Interloper: It’s not like the cupboard was stocked with super star talent when he got here.
Ah, the lack of multiple superstars before I arrived excuse – solid rebuttal.
Funny - read the rest of it
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 11, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
So the English language is preventing him from trying hard and rebounding?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 3:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
WOW DS
What would a post be like without a bargs bashing from DS lol for real tho man its getting kind of crazy for you bashing the kid over over & over again. Hell if he had a bad night ok understandable..but last night he had a complete game. Points, did it effectively, he rebounded well, got a couple assists, 3 block shots and played pretty hard. He did have a few miscues for sure but he still had a solid game..francise even mentioned it, if he can admit it I don’t see why you gotta keep bashing the kid even when he has a good game. The last play ok he didn’t exacute it well and he is far away from being dirk but honestly how many chances has bargs had to win the game in that manner? Not too many it was always bosh (rightfully so he was the best player) but if you get the chances in thoses situations than eventually it’ll come.
by sherwin316 on Nov 11, 2010 11:32 AM EST via mobile reply actions
you are wrong
He had a few and normally he converted. Now I did not watch yestarday game. I did watch half of the one before, I hear he plaid very badly, but hitting the game winner / changer has never been an issue. He did not convert this time…. let the biporla Raptors supporters get loose…
Bargs and trades
Bargs was pretty good last night, if we got those results for the rest of the season, I would be happy. The key, as it has always been with Bargs, is consistency. By NBA standards, when he’s good, he’s a 9/10; when he’s bad, he’s a 0/10. He’s got to learn to mitigate his “bad” so that when he’s “bad” he’s a 5/10, not 0. That’s what the good & great players do.
Bryan Colangelo should be looking to move Kleiza and Barbaso as quickly as possible for something of value. I think both are legit NBA players, but they are more valuable on a good team than they are on this one. What’s the point of having 6th man of the year, when the first 5 are terrible? More importantly, they are taking minutes from guys that need them to improve….guys that may actually be around when we have a chance to be good. I would run a 3 man guard rotation at the 2-3 of DeRozan, Weems and Wright, but you can’t justify that until you move Barbosa and Kleiza.
I’d also move Evans as soon as Davis is healthy for the same reason. He has some value (diminishing by the game, however) for a playoff team, and all he’s going to do here is limit minutes for someone who we’re hoping to build around.
That TPE is beginning to scare me too. I could see Colangelo wanting to make a mid-season splash and grab a long-term contract with it. Patience is not a virtue for this man. In an ideal world, he holds it until after the season but before the draft (it expires 1 year from the Bosh trade, so early July sometime). He then takes on a shorter bad deal and a draft pick with it. To me, that is the best case scenario. I should point out though, that several team have TPE’s (including Cleveland in the LeBron trade), so while ours is bigger than most, it’s not uncommon.
Good point
Bargs needs to find other ways to help the team bad scoring night or not, but especially on a bad scoring night.
Chris Bosh Diaries
If you’re on twitter, please check the absolutely hilarious string of tweets about Bosh’s idiotic “cable is better in the US” comments.
Bruce Arthur got the ball rolling and the HQ has started a #ChrisBoshTorontoDiaries trending topic that’s taken off.
Sample:
Chris Bosh Toronto Diary Day 225. Coach Mitchell made us help some lumberjacks before practice. Araujo cut nearly half the forest himself.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
This is gunna be a LONG season
You guys definitley need to check out the Baron Capper on www.bettorbelieveit.com. I have been making huge $ over the past couple of weeks following the guy. Definitely worth a look.
Would David Blatt make a good NBA coach?
Discuss
Blatt’s success with Russia has drawn the notice of ESPN’s international basketball expert and former college coach Fran Fraschilla, who is serving as a color analysts for ESPN’s FIBA broadcasts.
“David…has turned out to be one of the great coaches in Europe,” Fraschilla said during a broadcast. “David is one of those guys who could adjust to the NBA level. [He] played for Pete Carril at Princeton. Think of the basketball knowledge he acquired.”
Carril, of course, has an extensive coaching tree, with five of his former players now serving as head coaches in NCAA Division I and a couple more as assistant coaches.
Blatt announced on Aug. 31 that this tournament would be his last as Russia’s national team coach, and he’ll head back to Israel to serve again as the head coach of Maccabi Tel Aviv. Given that Maccabi has missed being in the Israeli league final only twice since it was instituted in 1954 and has won 48 titles, expectations will be high for Blatt’s second tenure as the team’s head coach. Blatt won two of those 48 titles in 2002 and 2003.
Interestingly, the most talented coach in Raptors history, one Butch Carter, learned a lot of his approach from Bobby Knight.
I honestly believe being able to win is a talent that coaches have or they don’t. You put certain coaches in different situations and they get the most out of their teams in each situation.
The Raptors haven’t had that since Butch Carter. It makes the evaluation of existing talent difficult because we can’t say that we’ve seen any of these particular players at their best to say, “okay, he doesn’t have IT”
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
Butch is available
but sadly, will never get another sniff. I’d love to see him back though.
Interloper hits the nail on the head once again!
EXACTLY what this team needs! Another commodity unproven in the NBA and gained his “success” in Europe against what is not even the equivelant of NBA minor league competition… If BC hired this guy that’s it, I’m out on the Raptors until BC is gone.
Proven, quality NBA coaches are working on winning teams.
Those that are available were fired for a reason, good or bad. My whole argument for Blatt is that the guy has WON EVERYWHERE he’s been, even on the upper level of International Basketball. Triano doesn’t have the same pedigree of proven success. Can someone please enlighten me about Jay Triano’s winning history outside of CIAU, and the Men’s National Team. As I’ve tried to argue many times, some people just know how to win. Getting a coach who does is the first step to long term success.
It would be unfortunate to see you abandon ship because of a smart coaching hire.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Nov 12, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Guys do not worry the number 1 pick awaits us
seriously did you guys expect us to be in a better position then this, I didn’t . we just got to toughen it out until we get a high draft pick. I am already starting to look at top draft picks
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 11, 2010 7:12 PM EST reply actions
me too..who would you draft if your the raps?
by sherwin316 on Nov 11, 2010 8:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I really like enes Kanter. if we get the 2nd or 3rd pick I would take him. if we get the first pick then harrison barnes for sure
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 11, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Perry Jones seems pretty interesting too
Reading about him he’s like a poors man Kevin durant. Kind of interesting prospect.
by sherwin316 on Nov 11, 2010 8:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nash trade rumors?
should BC make a move?
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 11, 2010 7:33 PM EST reply actions
This is the scariest thing about this season.
Every time some over the hill player is rumoured to be on the trade market, i’m going to be shitting my pants that Colangelo will try and trade for him to win 3 or 4 more games just to protect his image of himself.
hahahah i wouldnt mind having Nash but i think your right i rather have a young up & coming PG
by sherwin316 on Nov 11, 2010 8:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nash deserves better then us hope Miami or the Lakers get him i want to see him with a ring
by raptors_run_the_show on Nov 11, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Nash
This is the scariest thing about this season. Every time some over the hill player is rumoured to be on the trade market, i’m going to be shitting my pants
Now this is where we can debate MAS11 – and thank God we’re not discussing Bargnani.
.
Is Nash worth trading for? That depends. If we unload Jack & Calderon, then maybe. Let’s say we get a quality (ROOKIE) PG in the next draft. To me, Nash would make an excellent mentor. And maybe, just maybe, we’d attract some top talent because of him.
.
And MAS11 – My grandmother says you should try out Depends – apparently they can help you with those embarrassing crap in your pants moments.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Nash would make the team better, but not great and he is clearly on the down side of his career.
My dream for Nash would be that he gets dealt somewhere he can win his ring within the next 2 years. Then he signs in Toronto in 2012-13 for a reasonable amount of time and takes over as the back up PG to a young stud that they have added.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 11, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
RapthoseLeafs: You missed the rest of my post in your quote...
The part where I stated that this team with Nash, or any other past their prime player will still be shite. Maybe less shite than they are now, but shite. They still miss the playoffs, they still have a sub .500 record, the only difference is that they win a handful more games and move backwards as far as draft position.
The ONLY rationale I could understand for doing this is Colangelo wanting to squeez a few more wins to mitigate a full on disaster, save face/reputation and secure a contract extension – damaging the future of this franshise in the process.
So my hope is that he does not entertain the idea of picking up a past their prime player wiht multiple contract years left.
Fair Enough
Every time some over the hill player is rumoured to be on the trade market, i’m going to be shitting my pants that Colangelo will try and trade for him to win 3 or 4 more games just to protect his image of himself.
If I’m Richard Peddie – who denied leaving MLSE by the way – I’d play it this way, with BC running the ship:
- The Game Plan remains confidential – Decoy … decoy … decoy – F*@k the media.
- Tank the season, but make it look like you’re trying your best. Tell everyone we still have a chance at the play-offs. Play Reggie more. And give Dorsey a shot.
- Use the TPE on someone who has great upside, but is injured and can’t play for the balance of the season. Or maybe until the last 10 games.
- Save the Expirings till the last possible moment, so the “new” guys don’t f*@k up this plan.
- Try to pick up some more picks and/or move up the draft. Hope like hell we don’t have Jersey luck.
- Offer Bargnani a 1 year extension (on top of his remaining 4). Make it for about 15 mil, just so the haters will blow a gasket.
- We have to ease out Jay. Try PJ for a year. Not going anywhere, so wtf.
- Start the rebuild
BC’s reward for looking like an a$$, and being able to do it right (without worrying about being canned, cause the draft way is painful) – a 3 year extension.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I actually had the EXACT thoughts at the begining of the season as to what I would do (except for #6 – hardy har har). I wouldn’t see the need to decoy though, I would be honest with fans because I as a fan only feel insulted when BC tries to snowball me. However, I agree 100% on how to use the TPE and expiring contracts. Use them all at the absolute last oportunity (trade deadline). By that time we’ve built an insurmountable hole to dig out of. This way we potentially get some decent players towards the end of the season and maintane a high lottery pick. Add this to some cap space this summer to chase some talent and Bob’s your uncle – rebuild on course.
Decoying
.
The reason why I “suggested” the Game Plan be kept off the Radar, stems from the whole Charlotte fiasco. The less known – especially for those GM’s we’ll be trading with – the better. Bargaining power increases when the hand you’re holding is not so visible.
.
We tend to look at BC as a failure, yet had he completed the Jose trade, along with Hedo’s movement, most would see that as a pretty good thing. Past mistakes will always be there – it’s how we deal in the present that matters.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 12, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Pipe Dreams
Sadly, if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, the top six teams in the league spend huge amounts of money to be at the top. With only a few exceptions, the teams struggling today are paying the lowest payrolls. The Lakers are 72% above the cap. Yes money can buy you happiness.
So do you really think it matters – all this stuff about dumping Bargs or trading for this guy or that guy. I’m like all of you, I get caught up in this stuff too but without spending the necessary money then you are really just hoping that somehow a group of players beats the odds and plays above their heads. It’s really a long shot, just pipe dreams
I (perhaps stupidly) believe MLSE would actually go into the luxury tax if the team was on the verge of being a contender. Sadly, the moves that have been made over the past few years have put the team nowhere near this point.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 11, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Luxury Tax
.
DS,
This is where I agree with you. Only I believe we should do it now.
.
Why? Because that part of the game is outside the whole talent thing, and enters the world of the CBA – a completely different animal in itself. When your salaries are high (like JO for example), and you a couple of them, you can move them as Expirings. Yes, that takes a few years to accomplish, but since when has there been any urgency with Toronto teams.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 11, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
But here’s the thing about the luxury tax — it has to be offset with playoff revenue. I hear the “$3 million per home playoff game” figure floated around. In the meantime, as long as the Raptors are up against the tax level with little room to spare, I’ll be happy that they’re devoting enough money to player salaries.
Now, in terms of value for the money, we have a serious problem…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Further to that
There are some aspects to the Toronto situation that give me cause to have understanding for Colangelo. He has to take on the big boys with a relatively small budget, a less favourable tax situation, a cold climate and a losing team. How would you like to take a kick at that can? Do you supose it’s a little hard to draw some of those warm weather boys up to the Arctic to play on a low budge team with a losing record.
Probably
So you grap who you can and hope it works out.
You draft multiple good players and lock them down for 7+ years each. That is your window.
Ignoring this offseason and looking back in history, very few championship teams were built through simply signing the best FA and then proceeding to stomp the rest of the league. There really aren’t that many huge defections – the last successful one would be Shaq to LA. It’s not as though we’ve ever lost out on a big FA. We didn’t get Ariza but he isn’t exactly a world-beater.
This is not baseball, you an not just go add salary. They have to fllow the salary cap rules. They are aleady over the cap. If Bosh had stayed and taken the max the Raptors could offer, you would be adding close to 20 million to our current roster. It is safe to say that the team will spend. It sounds like they are open to trading their TPe for players with contracts too. That would also increase their salary a lot.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 12, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
Brutal… Oh, well, after so many years of watching the Raps on this end of the calls, it doesn’t even phase me anymore.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 12, 2010 8:16 AM EST up reply actions
Hand is part of the ball.
But you’re right — based on the angle that the official at the top of the picture appears to have, he probably whistles that if it’s Pierce or Bryant.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Some acting is required to embellish that as well. Perhaps that’s the portion our Italian friend neglected?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
He definitely should have went immediately into a shooting motion.
But not only is SJ getting him on the hand, it’s a reach in… like you say, Pierce, Bryant players get a whistle on that. Hell, Anthony Parker gets a call on that. It just typifies how the game was called.
The reffing this year has been great, but that just made this debacle stand out even more.
That png you posted is even more egregious, with his hand on Bargs’ arm in full sight of the Ref.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 12, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Yep — go straight up in your shooting motion and throw in a little “random guy from the 300 level shot me with a dart gun” and Bargs is probably on the line in that situation.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
He's Italian
Acting in a sports venue is in his blood.
I think once Ginobli retires, he really needs to set up a clinic for players with special guest appearances by Paul Pierce and Reggie Miller.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Why Steve Nash makes sense
It basically allows all non-point guards on the team to operate under the best possible circumstances. Helps clearly identify who should be kept and who should be let go.
We as fans operate at an information disadvantage. One would suspect management has an idea of what’s going to happen with the CBA, the lockout, and the prospects of a draft. Agents would be digging for info already about whether their guys should look to declare or wait till the mess clears.
If Colangelo makes a move for Nash, it is likely an indication that the draft will not be as stacked as some hope, so you give the fans attending the games something to hold them over AND ENJOY before the lockout rolls around.
We hardcore fans lose perspective sometimes, operating in our own version of a bubble, some of us willing to sit and wait for 3, 4, 5 years until things get good because we love the game, but these championship aspirations have to be paid for by more than our emotional support. Casual fans matter and you have to give them something to care about.
Imagine a horrible season, that lands us a blah #1 pick in a draft depleted of its top talent because a lockout is coming. People are just going to find something else to do.
Nash might be the sort of ambassador a fickle market like Toronto might need to see it through the dark days. He plays the rest of the year, gets people excited, win or lose while giving us a true sense of what the team has and doesn’t have by making those around him as good as they are going to be and keeps spirits buoyed and prepped for what should be an extensive and thorough rebuild.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
In one of the Lunchbox Links from the late offseason, it was mentioned in an article that MLSE budgets for X number of playoff games for their pro teams as you would expect any business to do. The Leafs were previously budgeting for 5 playoff games which in part prevented John Ferguson from truly committing to the rebuild that he wanted (whether he would have succeeded is beside the point). It makes sense then that the Leafs paid a premium for Brian Burke as he sold them on the strength of his ability to whip up a winner “on the fly”. This would mean he would ensure the Leafs’ long-term competitiveness but also book those those home playoff dates in the short-term while any other GM would have been stupid to propose the same (and would not be believed anyway). Of course, we now see that Burke has not delivered and in fact led the Leafs to one of the lowest ranks in the league last year. Now, the expectation is actually changed – someone I know at MLSE told me that the Leafs have budgeted for 0 playoff games this year (down from the 5 which was previously mentioned in the article).
For some reason I don’t remember the Raptors’ budget situation clearly, but I believe the Raptors have actually budgeted for playoff games this season (I remember thinking the Leafs were better than the Raptors but the budget situations were reversed). I described the Leafs’ situation above, and it’s really easy to equate the two situations because Colangelo basically faces the same challenges as Burke – being the hotshot GM brought in to whip up long-term winner while also producing short-term results. The problem for Colangelo though, is that the Raptors’ attendance will actually go below a capacity crowd. Factoring in MLSE’s expectations for the business side, this makes BC even more likely to make moves which are short-term focused in order to boost attendance if it sags. If you believe that statement I just made, then an acquisition of Steve Nash is potentially worrisome, because it is not made with the best long-term interests of the roster in mind. I feel that this is the general underlying trend with many of Colangelo’s decisions – if classified, the primary goal is often either a boost to short-term competitiveness or a move to bolster the bottom line. Sometimes one objective is filled, not the other like selecting Bargnani (building the Euro following) or signing Turkoglu (intended to achieve short-term competitiveness but achieved neither goal).
If the goal is to drive fan interest – my preference is to just win. Raptor fans will undoubtedly show up to cheer for Nash, but they will also show up to cheer for players who aren’t Nash as long as we’re winning. Undoubtedly, building a winning team is more complicated than just acquiring Nash, but a more sustainable business strategy given an individual athlete’s shelf life. If you believe that operators of sports teams should be driven by the idea that “Wins = Profit”, it is a bit dishonest or cheesy to allow them to take the “Nash = Profit” route as it reinforces management making gimmicky moves like this in the furture (not that I expect Canadians to take over the NBA but you get the point).
Aside from my concerns about what a Nash acquisition means to MLSE, from a GM’s perspective, I absolutely don’t understand the idea of selling out to acquire Nash before the lockout. The cost and risks are huge – consider these points:
- We’ll be stripping the team of our valuable young talent and future picks which would form our core in 5 years
- Nash improves our win total which decreases our draft position and undermines our chances of acquiring a high impact prospect
- Nash is sure to retire within the next few years, and could potentially spend a year of his few remaining in limbo if the players are locked out.
Is it really worth it?
I also worry about Colangelo chasing Nash for another silly reason. He likes to acquire players who he previously had on the Suns. I suppose you could argue that Nash is one of the least shot players of the “Seven Seconds or Less” era (currently operating at a high level despite his health concerns) but consider how little restraint BC showed in swapping for a noticably inferior version of the Matrix and then attempting to extend him (and being rebuffed).
I don’t think trading for Nash because we’ll have a high pick in a weak draft is a sensible thing to do. Aside from the Kenyon Martin draft, every draft provides star players somewhere. And I’d argue that a lockout helps us or at the least does not hurt us badly. It is really a strange situation that Raptor fans complain about winning a #1 pick in a weak year, some even saying the league rigged things against us (believe we were 5th worst and had downside of drafting 8th overall). If a lockout occurs while we are bad, we will reap double the rewards of being bad. Realistically, teams with entrenched positions at the bottom/top of the league will not be affected greatly – I doubt the NBA would go as far as the NHL did when they gave all teams a weighted shot at high draft slots. Teams that get the shaft in a lockout are the ones who would have improved draft standing (fallen from playoffs to lottery) but did not get the chance to do so as the season was not played out. That, I assure you will not be the Raptors.
There are plenty of reasons Nash makes sense in Toronto, he is a great player and public figure – I would love to have him here. But it really doesn’t make sense to acquire him at the price the Suns will command to give him up. And really, if he wanted to be in Toronto, he would not have extended in Phoenix when he did.
Non-Nash related question:
Do you really believe that a draft preceding a lockout would really be devoid of top talent, that high lottery players with the intention of entering the draft would simply return to college instead of getting drafted and being one step closer to signing those guaranteed multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts?
There are always players who make the decision to return and attempt to improve their draft stock. But, the general idea that kids who have put themselves in a position to earn multi-million dollar salaries will risk that to play for “an education”, room and board does not really click for me. Not with the amount of professional advice available, the general pressure there is to “get paid” and the chance to acheieve that goal of being drafted. Europe seems like a likely beneficiary to me.
Don't torture Steve
I think it would be cruel for the Raptors to acquire Nash at this point in his career. He should be going to a contender or staying in Phoenix.
#1 pick
If there is a lockout next year and all the good one and done players stay in college. How good could our future #1 pick possibly be.
Maybe not… if the top 5 picks stay out for a year, that means they will be bumped by a set of top 5 picks the next year – so a number 1 overall pick risks becoming a number 6 overall pick. Having that guaranteed eventual contract might be better for the players (and their agents). And any top-top draft picks usually end up with a big-name agent, who might convince them to take the hit the first year for dividends in the long run.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 12, 2010 8:15 AM EST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Raptors HQ
Related FanShots on Raptors HQ
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- C-a-C: This is probably as close to LeBron James working with John Waters as we’ll ever get
- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
