3 in the Key: Raptors' Game-Day Preview vs. Bobcats
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 9:02 AM EST
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After a whirlwind of discussion about Andrea Bargnani, the franchise's future and even Marcia, Franchise looks at what he sees as the two main options the Raptors need to take with "Il Mago"...
If Andrea Bargnani had one rebound for every comment he inspired on the site, HE, not Reggie Evans, would be drawing Dennis Rodman comparisons.
Yep, it was Andrea-mania yesterday as the readership again cast their vote on what to do with "Il Mago," the new figurehead of fan frustration for many.
This morning instead of going into our usual 3 keys for tonight's game, I wanted to expand a bit on the great discussion our readers orchestrated.
Not that tonight's game isn't worth breaking down, but the Bobcats are simply a terrible team right now, scoring under 90 points a game and having defensive issues as well and the key really is to get a win. If Toronto can't put the boots to this Charlotte club, this truly will be a long, long month.
(Sidebar - if you're feeling masochistic and want to attend tonight's game, check out the great contest Heels on the Hardwood is having!)
But let's get back to Andrea for a second and not because I want to keep kicking the tires on this. What I want to discuss and what several readers commented on yesterday was that this whole thing goes beyond Andrea. I don't want to keep rehashing the same old Andrea plot-lines and don't intend to. I'd love to talk about how this team can improve, and how this franchise can move forward. In fact, from about 2005 to 2008, that's what Howland and I did each and every day despite some dismal squads. Yes, at one point I think he and I were even trying to see the upside of Mengke Bateer!
Here's the thing though.
Even in the darkest days of Rob Babcock, there was no pretense that the team had star players waiting to bloom. Sure, maybe early on guys like Villanueva and Graham had upside, but no one was saying that Loren Woods was the second coming of Tim Duncan, despite the fact that they shared the court briefly at Wake Forest. Babcock was even criticized for telling it like it was; his team sucked and had a long ways to go before being a contender.
Now this isn't an "in defence of Rob Babcock" post.
After all, this is the guy who oversaw such classic hits like "Hoffa," and "The Skip to my Lou Remix."
But the point is that to me that club at least had a plan of action. It was trying to clear out Glen Grunwald's salary cap woes and bring in new talent via the draft.
Was it a rebuild?
Yes indeed, and there was nothing standing in the way of that rebuild as the club literally began to blow things up.
On the flip side we have the current incarnation of the Toronto Raptors.
In my books, they should be progressing in a similar manner yet to the chagrin of myself and many others, management continues to extol the virtues of players who we don't see as solutions, but as the root causes of the team's lack of progress in a rebuild effort!
And that's where Andrea comes in.
Whether you like it or not, Bargnani is the biggest example of this. There are others too but Hedo, JO, and The Matrix are gone, DeRozan is still barely into year 2, etc, etc. So unfortunately Bargs becomes the main focal point under the "this rebuild ain't workin' " spotlight.
So it's not just an "I hate Bargnani" thing. After all, I defended Colangelo's top pick for his first two and a half years before realizing that he simply wasn't going to get to that next level that many of us expected.
And this brings me to another point, let's talk a bit about expectations for a second.
One thing that I failed to do yesterday in my critique was suggest options in terms of what to do with Andrea. If indeed it's time to fish or cut bait so to speak, then what?
To me there's two main options; you either use Andrea in a different manner, or you move him completely via trade.
In the first option, why not move him to the bench? Is it because he was the top pick overall and therefore expectations predicate that he is a starter in this league?
-Ben Gordon was the 3rd overall pick in his draft year, and has been viewed as a much more effective player coming off the pine.
-James Harden was also the 3rd overall pick and despite a rough start for OKC last year, the team found him as a better option off the bench and continue to view him as such.
-Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Marvin Williams; these are all top 5 picks in draft history who at one point or another were asked to play major roles for their teams by coming off the bench.
So again I ask, why this insistence on continuing to start Andrea? Why couldn't he be an amazingly lethal 6th man for Toronto and therefore still a part of the team's future as it attempts to acquire more starting level talent?
Or as one of our readers suggested in a fan post, why not try playing him at the 3 and load up on rebounders and shot blockers at the 4, 5? Andrea's advanced metrics look better at that spot and maybe this would negate some of his help defense issues?
No good, what about Option 2?
Many teams in the past have realized that for one reason or another, their lottery pick just isn't working out the way they expected, and that it was time to start fresh. Emeka Okafor, Drew Gooden, Tyson Chandler, Darius Miles, the aforementioned Jamison, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams...these are all examples of top 5 picks that just didn't pan out and were dealt by the clubs that selected them.
The common difference though between these types and Andrea?
These other clubs all realized within about two and a half years that their team vision regarding said draft selections wasn't coming to fruition and cut bait.
We're now in year 5 of the Andrea experiment.
Under option 2 then, maybe it's time for Colangelo to make like Joe Dumars did with Darko Milicic, admit defeat, and move on. It happens. An Eddy Curry deal was thrown out there and while I doubt the Knicks want essentially two Danilo Gallinari's, a Bargs and Evans for a Curry and similarly frustrating former lottery pick, Anthony Randolph comes close to working under the salary cap, and makes a lot of sense for both teams considering New York's need for rebounding help. Maybe there's something along those lines that's possible.
In any event, whether you're more a fan of option 1 or 2, I think you need to choose one if you're Colangelo and co. I just don't think you can spend a year sacrificing game time for guys like Amir Johnson (and eventually Ed Davis, who is rumoured to be close to a return) by continuing to roll out Bargs and Evans at the big man spots.
It would be one thing if it was working, but it's not, so I'm hoping to see a change of some sort in the near future.
If not, unfortunately the next Raptors' playoff date looks further and further away.
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I commend your determination to hammer Bargs
I’m struggling to find a way to say the same thngs in another way and I guess it doesn’t matter anyway cause you guys certainly have an agenda and you’re persistant. Hats off to you.
So I’m moving on with another topic. A number of the readers have continued to push this idea of intentionally tanking to get a draft pick. I find that so unrealistic. What coach or GM would act so unproffessional? I’m in favour of winning now. Who seriously would want to lose games intentionally. Three years ago Boston rebuilt their team into a winning Franchise and they did not do it by tanking and hoping for a draft pick.
For me , Colagelo needs to build now with trades. The only two players I would protect are Davis and Derozen.
You need a foundation of a true center, an athletic point guard and a “go to scorer” Start working to ward that today.
re: Boston
They secured the fifth pick in the 2007 draft which they turned into Jeff Green and then Ray Allen via trade. Al Jefferson was drafted out of high school (2005?) and was the centerpiece of the trade for Kevin Garnett. Boston was a bad team once they started dismantling the Paul Piece, Antoine Walker dynasty. They decided to not be content with a team which had seemingly reach its ceiling as a second round playoff squad.
I admire the Celtics for daring to dream bigger, in the face of what were surely some lean years from a ratings and attendance perspective. However, would your current logic not frown upon what was ultimately a successful tear down?
I agree that once the season starts, you play the hand that your dealt and , barring roster changes, you coach them to whatever record that mix of players has in them. However, the long term plan isn’t declared a success if you were successful at the start of it (See Colangelo 2006-2007) Thus if your not constantly making moves and decisions with the end result in mind, your ultimately failing both yourself and your fanbase.
Build now with trades, is the exact philosophy that Bryan has been using thus far. And yet here we sit with no true center, no athletic pg, and no “go to scorer.” The draft isn’t the be all and end all, you’ve got to get off the lottery carousal sometime, but its the only way to get superior talent in a TORONTO uniform. No building blocks, no free agents worth having.
Why clear cap space?
As far as option 2: How many free agents have passed on Toronto? We are at the bottom of the list for any elite NBAer. We get guys like JO and Matrix who have to prove themselves or get stuck with us. Blowing it up is not an option especially for TO and doesn’t work anyway. Build from within, work with what you’ve got, develop talent, shuffle lineups, make good draft picks, bring the level of execution up. BC has failed on a lot of these points, that’s why we’re still at square one.
Just the act of moving Bargs is not going to fix this team. Moving TJ/JO/HEDO didn’t fix it.
If moving Bargs get us a nice deal, I’m fine with that, Bargs off the bench is a worthy experiment, but we’re just a long way off and the way to fix it comes down to a lot more than one player and 8 games.
That’s a major issue for sure.
You can clear all the cap space you want but if you’re a) not a preferred NBA destination and b) not a preferred destination AND not a winning org like San Antonio or Utah, you’ve got problems.
This team is going to have to build through solid drafting over the next few years in hopes of creating an OKC or Sacto youth movement that they can then slot solid players around.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
The only benefit of having a lot of cap space is that you may be able to outbid other teams for talent (for example, Rashard Lewis).
But isn’t that what got the Raps in this mess? Overpaying for talent? Or is it just a reality of the situation?
Through the draft is best, but you can’t build a team purely through the draft, trades and free agent signings have to play a role.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 10, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
We don’t just overpay for talent. it’s obvious we’re not an option for top players. They just tell their agents, anywhere but Toronto, Charlotte, New Jersey, Minny, etc.
The only reason we had a shot at Hedo is because either he had no prejudice to the Raps, money was his only concern, or very few teams wanted him.
Speaking of Hedo, it’s hilarious how 7 games in the fans are crying for Hakim Warrick to start at the 4 over him.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Surely BC could make one move
Just one good step (what ever it might be) through trades to get a little better. I know drafting sounds good but it’s such an unknown. During the draft season, there are all kinds of opinions but no body knows for sure.
If you can trade for a couple of foundation pieces and get known commodities to go with a draft pick.
If you are saying there is no hope because Toronto is not a “prefered destination” then I’d say the future looks pretty bleak.
Welcome to bleakville
I think you just articulated why I am a pessimist about the Raps, despite being a rabid fan.
FAs won’t come here without being overpaid.
Overpaid FAs kill cap space and lead to roster constriction.
The draft is a crapshoot, and even if TO lands a gem pick there is no guarantee you don’t get an Olowakandi instead of Tim Duncan.
Ultimately I think you need to hoard assets, make smart trades and hopefully fleece someone in a deal (Bargs for Kevin Love, PLEASE!).
When all is said and done, there are only going to be handful of teams who can win a championship, and even extraordinary organizations (like Utah) can’t climb the mountain vs the Lakers, Celtics, or Heat.
Personally, I cheer for the Raps KNOWING it is all but hopeless – like being a Cubs fan, it’s just part of the charm.
by CamHilton on Nov 10, 2010 8:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bare in minds kids, moving Bargs to the bench could crush his ego. Last time he came off the pine he was less effective than when he was starting. I’m not saying coddle him, but I am suggesting we be prepared for his offensive numbers to drop as well.
Ran out of time this morning but that’s the one thing I also wanted to touch on. If we’re talking trade value, would benching him, even if he still played 30 minutes a night, kill him completely?
Million dollar question.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I think it has to be one or the other. Either management decides to trade him, and the game plan is altered to maximize his individual value (ie run every offensive play through him, play him longer minutes, keep him as starter), OR, we decide to make him fit with the team, maximize his team value, and utilize him as an offensive spark off the bench, where he can really utilize his offensive talents (against backups), without being abused by opponents’ starters.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 10, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Completely agree.
And another comparison – Al Harrington. Harrington is a guy who’s not exactly a defensive stopper (to say the least) but can come off a team’s bench, be a mismatch problem and put up 30. I don’t see why Bargs couldn’t do that for this team for years down the road.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
If Triano could get him to except his role as instant offense off the bench, that would be great. But if he is going to shut right down because his fragile ego can’t handle criticism, then keep him in the starting line up and start pimping him to other teams. Now would be a great time for BC to start taking a good hard look at all those “offers” being thrown his way for Bargs.
Yep, I’d give the full thumbs up to “pimp away.”
However for someone who Colangelo has described time after time as having “ice in his veins,” it would be disappointing to see him shrivel to say the least.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I know we like to focus on the teams “best player” (if I could make the quotes bigger I would), but that’s not the issue.
Just like when the focus was on Bosh, it was never Bosh that caused the Raptors not to win, it was the surrounding cast. And I’d say the same for AB.
To that point, I’m thinking Colangelo should start looking at some “BC Specials;” crafty under-the-radar moves to strengthen the club while he waits for the draft to get cheap, elite talent.
Pietrus anyone?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I’m going to be watching reeeeeal close this trade deadline. Best chance to gain some talent for little cost (including use of expirings and TPE), without costing the team the precious losses needed to get a high pick.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 10, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
My thoughts are that the keys now lie with Davis, Alabi and to a smaller extent DD. If they go from prospect to suspect… well we’re on the Clipper train.
Completely agree again. BC needs to do a bang-up job with talent evaluation over the next year or so or this team is headed in that Clippers direction; one where mediocre players are overpaid and top young talent is turned over every few years so that there’s no progression forward as a franchise.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
And that’s where I posted in June that if the Lotto Jackpot this year, and our future (DAD, Davis, Alabi, DeRozen) comes through, now we’re talking a solid path. I just didn’t think BC would do the right thing (meaning, nothing). I really really thought he would have panicked and pulled the trigger right now.
If I could.. There’d be a fire sale right now, and Andersen, Banks, Wright become my starters.
Well, I would start Amir, DD, Wright, Alabi, (PG), Davis 3rd big when he comes back, Weems third wing, if you were going to go the ‘tank like you’ve never tanked before’ route.
Personally, I don’t think any changes need to be made to achieve that top pick. Play Bargs, DD, Weems, Wright, Davis when he comes back – if they can find minutes for Alabi all the better. The losing will take care of itself ;)
by dhackett1565 on Nov 10, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
In this league, you gotta make the draft. When you have a top draft, then you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.
Awesome ha ha.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Rebuild
It is tough to argue that the rebuild has not been working. Until very recently, this team was trying to win with Bosh. It has only been recently that their has been any hints at admitting a rebuild.
The big hint being getting a large TPE and then talking about how it gives us flexibility. While Colangelo did not and would not come out and say exactly what he meant by this is. I hope he meant we can try to be agressive and add a pieve if we show any signs early in the year that we can compete, or if we are nowhere close we can exercise patience and rebuild.
Gettig our pick back plus the Miami pick could go very far towards rebuilding, but to me the most promising sign that Toronto may actually be committed to rebuilding is that Colangelo has not made a typical move of acquiring someone with some skills, that somebody else rightfully thought was not worth having on their team anymore.
I can only hope that for the first time in his overagressive tenure, Colangelo is certain that this team sucks right now. He must be realizing the team will only ever have a chance if he slows down on acquiring serviceable players that other teams do not want because they are not worth what they are paid or would need Colangelo to pay them to come to Toronto.
He should be open to trading everyone, but must realize that he does not need to trade anyone. Many of you know how horrid Calderon’s contract is, and we certainly know that many people feel Bargs will never earn his money, but I do not think either guy has to go. It doesn’t matter really because this team is incapable of winning and should only be foucused on auditioning/developing players and more importantly having a/some nice shot(s) in the upcoming draftS.
The reality is mistakes have been made and while there is nobody on the roster that should be considered untradeable, you do not need to trade these guys unless you are sure that you are improving the team down the line. With no clear star players on this team and with their current salary structure, they are likely to still have no chance in 2012-2013.
Just for the love of god BC, do not trade for any contracts that are longer than Jose’s, and stop trading/signing with being competitve now. Please confirm for us that this is a rebuild.
If there are not any great offers for Bargnani, he can stay. Just realize that he when the team is hopefully very good in 2013-14 should be no more than a useful rotation player, getting maybe 25 minutes then and serve a purupose. Yes everyone is angry that you competed against yourself to sign Bargs and that he is not ever going to be a star, but he would not kill a good team because of his contract. He may even help a good team that does not have a lot of other overpaid horrid defenders on it. When you invision your winning team, picture Bargnani as an offensive match up problem for other teams. Picture him playing 25 minutes a night, posting up small guys, blowing by big guys and having him use up his fouls to keep the worst perimeter player on the other team in front of him.
I could care less how much you play Andrea now. I have accepted that he will never be anything more than useful, but useful means he could have a positive effect. I am over that you picked him too high, paid him too much. I will not be able to get over you continuing to try to turn a team that is nowhere close into an immediate winner. Here is your chance rebuild. Bargnani, Derozan, Kleiza, Jack there is part of your future bench/maybe back end starters if they can not be traded for something better. Maybe Ed Davis will show signs that he can be a rotation guy on your winner in a couple of years, who knows. Just be ready to suck now and try to find us some future stars. I do not think we have them.
by JumpShootersRUS on Nov 10, 2010 11:23 AM EST reply actions
Grange echoes my thoughts
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/first-up/you-are-who-you-draft/article1791115/
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Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
My vote is to trade:
1) It’s either trade now or live with the consequences for ever. Once we move this guy to the bench, the chances of getting any value for him is severely lessened as no one wants to go to there fan base and explain why they traded for a bench player that is paid $10 – $12 mil per year (as his salary actually increases for the life of the deal). Which brings me to my next point…
2) Why the hell would we pay a bench player $10 to $12 mil per year!?! Look, generally there is a consensus amongst basketball writers, analysts, fans etc. around these parts (except for a SMALL minority) that a team can’t seriously hope to contend or even compete with Bargnani as your starting centre. There is a GM somewhere out there that BC will be able to convince otherwise. Right now some dumb ass GM will look at Bargnani and say: "wow he scores 22 pts a game, I’ll take a risk on that". Not knowing that he gives up more points that he scores based on his defence and rebounding.
3) Need to move on. If this Bargnani is moved to the bench, the first good game he has, the fan boys will be out in droves campaigning for his reinstatement to the starting line up. Preassure will come for Triano to acquiesce. It will be a mess. Plus I don’t think Colangelo will ever be able to fully move on until Bargs goes (mainly due to selfish pride and ego) and if the board is going to commit long term to BC, Bargs needs to be out of the picture.
Franchise’s New York deal is a fantastic example of a realistic deal – I’m sure there are tens of other potential ideas. As Colangelo keeps trying to convince us, he often gets calls for Bargnani from other GMs. Well pull the f’n trigger then.
I'm curious MAS11
Why the constant reference to Bargnani as a center. I know he has been forced to play center but are you now saying he is no good as a 4 either?
My Starting five based on Performance and Building for the Future...
Okay so for me it looks like this…
1) I start Jose. Here’s the thing, we’re not expecting wins just good play and building for the future.
We need to get him into a rhythm and raise his trade value. Next year give the team to Jack when we have someone good to give him to work with.
2) Demar has proven he wants to get to the next level. He has taken instruction well and should continue to grow into a force. Yes “the Spin Cycle” is getting repetitive, but it shows he is trying to develop new moves. Again, the team is building so let him perfect one new weapon before he attempts to add another.
3) Sonny on very short tether. He gets carried away trying to look like a standout or he gets lazy on D, bring in Wright immediately. Maybe Mr. Weems will eventually just emerge as a standout without trying too hard, but somebody (maybe Reggie) has to tell him there is a different between maximum effort and trying to grab the spotlight.
4) Kleiza. Linus, a starting spot is yours to lose. Not flashy, but not without highlights. Not a stopper, but I’m sure he has an inner Lithuanian toughness to unleash some occasional fury. STOP TRAVELING AND MAKING BAD PASSES.
5) Amir provides length enough to bother half the 5’s he’ll face and enough fouls to slow the other half. He provides some scoring and can get up and down the floor with the guards. Once Ed Davis starts to show his merit Amir can have some reprieve from the bruising he will surely absorb. Amir will be a valuable bench guy on any team, even a contender, for most of his career.
The Replacements
PG – Jack
SG – Barbosa
SF – Wright / Bargnani
PF- Bargnani / Evans / Dorsey
C – Anderson / Davis / Evans
Key Notes: Evans at PF or C and Bargs at the 3 or 4 as situation warrants… Barbosa when surgery is done or traded bumps Weems back to bench relief 2 guard unless he makes decent improvement… Anderson and Barbosa and Jose should ship out giving Dorsey more floor time and hopefully getting either a LEGIT Center and a solid backup PG or a top level PG (sorry Jarrett) and a SOLID center
It is a serious consideration that if we get solid rotational defenders in the paint (somewhat like what Camby turned into) it won’t matter if Bargnani moves to the 3 Spot (where he would be a nightmare to defend) and would get blown by just as much as Weems and Kleiza currently are…
As others have indicated before...
I would rather have an All Star center and a mediocre PG than Steve Nash or Chris Paul feeding Anderson and Evans the ball…
tradebargnani.com
It might be one way that we, the fans and stakeholders of this franchise, can invoke action.
If the domain tradebargnani.com is available, we need to purchase it. Have a simple form on it, like a petition of signatures, that will accumlate all those in favour of trading Barg’s. I said this a few years ago, until BC realizes he blew it big on Barg’s at the top spot, this team will never move forward. He continues to waste valuable minutes on a 6-10 rotation guy. I’m sure when BC signed Barg’s to the recent extension, it all but signed, sealed and delivered Bosh’s decision on Miami.
Additionally, I’m looking forward to the 2011 draft. Kyrie Irving is exactly what we need at the 1 – someone who’s going to break your ankels and make opposing D collapse.
If tradebargnani.com gets purchased, please post it here – I will sign that every day, 7 times a day, until he’s traded. You have my word.
Nick
Good news
tradebargnanin.com is available!!!!
GoDaddy is selling it for $12.02/yr.
If I can get someone to program the form on this site, I’ll purchase it.
I guess SB Nation wouldn’t be as kind to advertise the crap out of this site, would they?
lol…..Some of you are laughing at me, likely thinking what a door knob I am. However, there are those who are ready to sign on the dotted line :)
Here's a man with a plan.
I’d sign in a heart beat. Make it a bit uncomfortable for BC at his next MLSE board meeting!
You know something…if by Jan 1 we don’t see:
a) Bargs coming off the bench or
b) Bargs ensuring he’s not a complete liability on the court every night
I’m setting it up.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 10, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll set the deadline at Dec 1 and split the cost with you ;)
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 10, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Trade Bargnani?
.
Good to see such fans out cheering, and getting behind their team.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 10, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Seems to me...
The fans love the team, but can’t stand Bargs (for the most part). There is a difference.
Exactly
Posterized hit the nail on the head. All of us here love our Raptors, hence our frustration with their performance.
Rapthoseleafs, we’ve been behind the team for years, and the players. How many years do you give Bargnani to show up? Mr. Nice guy gets you losses in the league.
I honestly think that ...
In a year or two max … a starting five of Jarret Jack, Demar Derozan, Andrea Bargnani, Ed Davis and Un-Named All Star Center would be a legit playoff team. With a quality bench.
Amir is nice to keep for our bench, Dorsey looks like he could grow to a Big Baby clone.
Kleiza is a scoring bench player on a playoff team but won’t accept that role, so it’s unlikely he will stick around…
Jack’s backup should be more of a scoring point guard than a distributor ( think Billups, Parker, D. Rose, Stephen Curry)
Weems’ future is very unclear but it’s in his own hands.
Bench point production is a concern. Weems and Kleiza look nice, but are uncertain. A decent backup center to an allstar center is wishful thinking…
Barg at the 3 is a no-no
I just don’t think Barg’s at the 3 will work. He telegraphs all his foot work, dribbles with his head down, and won’t be able to defend opposing 3’s (typically way more agile than him)
Again, tradebargnani.com (shameless plug).
I disagree...
Currently : Kleiza is just as slow backpeddling on D but Bargs doesn’t rotate to help.
Prospectively : Bargs gets burnt as well but we shore up the team defense. Barg’s is way better on offense and no SF can reach his length on his favourite shots (fadeaway, hook, and open threes) so he scores more or at least more efficiently. I think Kleiza is destined to leave anyways so Ed Davis at the 4 will play the same individual D as Bargs at the 4 only he will provide weak side help and get blocks and rebounds. This of course hinges on getting a legit Center like I’ve been begging for from day one…
Yes
Let’s put the biggest most awkward player on the court at SF, makes a ton of sense, have any of you ever played basketball?
LOL!!!
That is better than my percentage.
BTW PNUTZ, just because you play basketball, doesn’t mean you are any good at it. ; )
Exactly!!!
Couldn’t agree more, PNUTZ. No way he lasts more than 2 possessions at the 3.
In two years time
I don’t dare dream quite as big as you.
I would like to see the Raptors identify a player that they really like in the draft, and either trade up for them OR acquire a second pick to acquire said player.
Stock piling assets is nice, but I can see the resultant lack of identity leading to infighitng as players looking to establish themselves fight over court time.
I would draw the anology to the revolving door we had going through the wing positions at one time. We had Parker, Delfino, Kapono, Moon, and Graham. And I bet a different fan would have a different pecking order for how those guys were ranked. I don’t care what the position is, we need to draft that next key player and start grooming them for a prominent position on the court and in the locker room. No projects, no players that need to play a different position in the pros then they have been accustomed thus far.
And if that means we need to trade two assets for one, so be it. As long as the player coming in is addressing a need that the two going out couldn’t. Also don’t think we’re in the position to be naming anyone untouchable at this point.
+1
I even think that keeping Bargnani at the 5 and adding a stud 3 would make for a playoff team with a puncher’s chance (assuming optimistic development scenarios for DeRozan, Bargnani and Davis).
I agree
Move Bargs to his natural position at 4 and get a big defensive center. That alone would be a big improvement
Not enough...
He still wouldn’t be giving enough help from the 4, he may as well be getting helped as a 3…
He is a talented scorer, let him just be that and finally be confident in who he is…
Scottie Pippen
Ima mention him again because he is my all time favourite player and Sonny Weems is built just like him. Sonny listen carefully, anybody can sing “I wanna be like Mike” and have a dream but you have the body and skill set to be just like Scottie, for real. Chase the dream and fail or realize the truth and be special.
Finding a spot for Barney...5+ years and counting
Seriously guys. I think collectively, everyone on here has come up with 15 different scenario’s for where we can put Barney on the floor/bench. Isn’t this a sign in itself? I better he would be a wicked team chef. I love Italian food.
At what point do we finally recognize that his ship has sailed? Let’s not waste another 5 years attempting to see if Barney can serve a purposful full time position as water boy, while tieing up valuable minutes and salary on something that isn’t.
Barn’s has had his opp. I know personally, I’ve moved on from the hope that he’ll amount to anything valuable on this team. Once BC finally has tha apperition, the Raps will be on the fast track to success.
Gnocci for all!
This is amasing
To watch this mob mentality in action. Never saw a player so villified.
Who would have thought. It’s interesting to see it grow just like a vigilantly mob in the streets. Some of you who were in his defense a day or so, join in so easily.
It’s interesting just from a study of human nature.
Vigilante
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Fan mentality may not be limited to just Toronto, but it’s a big factor in why Toronto has developed a Loser persona. Bi-polar being the diagnosis.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 10, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
The plan is working
I don’t seem to be as exasperated as some people have become. I think that is because I have been expecting the team to be bad this year and lo an behold they are. If the idea is to get the team up to the top of the lottery then things seem to be going perfectly so far.
Personally, I wouldn’t overextend the young guys for two reasons:
1) If they are the main guys getting beat up all night then it is not great for their morale and they may develop bad habits. Let someone else take the rebuilding lump (Bargnani, Evans, Kleiza are fine for this purpose).
2) If guys don’t project in the long term as starters then getting them used to playing starters minutes will just lead to trouble when you have to cut them back to bench minutes down the road. Would Weems be a starter if the Raptors got Harrison Barnes in the draft next year?
That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t play a lot if they are showing that they deserve to and that they can handle the load. Maybe Weems should be eating into DeRozan and Kleiza’s minutes, but until a guy like Alabi or Davis gets a starting spot they need to show something coming off the bench. I don’t know why Alabi is not in the D-league right now polishing his game(unless he is and I don’t realize it).
Overall, the plan is to build through the draft, so might as well keep doing what they are doing because a top pick looks very likely right now. And if someone has to take the lumps along the way it might as well be guys like Bargnani(who a lot of people seem to hate), Kleiza(who seems to have a pretty thick skin), Evans(who is most likely leaving anyway). With luck some overzealous GM will decide to take a flyer on Bargnani in the offseason hoping that he is the one who can turn coal into gold.
Busting out
Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Marvin Williams … all top 5 picks in draft history who at one point or another were asked to play major roles for their teams by coming off the bench.
Lamar Odom would be elsewhere (and a guaranteed Starter), if not for a few things (big ones – mind you)
- It’s the Lakers – leaving a perennial Contender is tough
- It’s the wife – leaving the Other Half is even tougher
- It’s the weather – enough said.
- It’s a Restaurant, Film company & more Hollywood stuff.
Odom will make 8.2 million this year – a bargain in NBA payrolls – simply because it’s LA. We could only wish to have that kind of loyalty.
Antawn Jamison (Cleveland) – a VERY expensive back-up.
13.4 million (15 mil next year)
8.5 ppg 3.8 Rbs 1.8 apg … this is what you’d call rich Bench material. Are we forgetting it’s MLSE who owns the Raps?
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Marvin Williams (Atlanta) – a Starter as far as his numbers look. Poor 3 pt shooter.
30.8 min. 10.8 ppg 6.0 Rbs 1.4 apg – cheap at 6.7 million?
So again I ask, why this insistence on continuing to start Andrea?
Williams plays Starter minutes. Odom does/should as well. And Jamison makes too much money. Two of them play on Contenders, the latter just gets paid like he does.
Emeka Okafor (New Orleans) – Starter minutes over his career
11.5 mil this season (4 year 52 million contract)
28.9 min – 12.3 ppg 8.1 Rbs 0.3 apg 2.3 bpg
Not a consistent offensive threat. Wasn’t he considered as a possible Raptor addition?
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Drew Gooden (Milwaukee)
5.8 million
20.9 min. 9.3 ppg 5.1 Rbs 0.6 apg
14th season 9 DIFFERENT teams – enough said
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Tyson Chandler (Dallas)
(12.8 million – final year)
26.7 min 7.2 ppg 8.2 Rbs 0.2 apg
He was a Rap, then not a Rap. Would’ve been nice alongside Bargs. MJ sucks big time.
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Darius Miles – wth … Miles last played 34 games for Memphis in 08-09 season.
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Tyrus Thomas (Charlotte)
40 million 5 years left
21.1 min. 11.9 ppg 5.4 Rbs 0.4 apg on a 1-6 team
Calling Amir ….
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Shelden Williams (Denver)
(Denver) 0.9 mil (last year) – that contract will change.
Reggie clone?
23.5 min. 6.8 ppg 8.0 Rbs 0.5 apg
The common difference though between these types and Andrea?
5 out of 9 guys represented here, play for a Contender. Bargnani does not – so why would we put him on the Bench. One of the guys, hasn’t played in 2 years (or so the records say). And some of them have Offense issues. At 8 mil this season, AB is worth trying to figure out …… Screw the past 4 years.
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This is a season with No Bosh. No Franchise player. And a different (and MUCH better) defense (PJ – thank God). Plus 7 new guys. I think some of us are panicking, when we knew from DAY ONE, we’re not a play-off team.
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As I said in a previous post, just because you can’t figure out how to make Andrea go, doesn’t mean someone else can’t. We are not a Contender. Bargs is our best offensive weapon. So make adjustments, and use this year to help him learn PJ’s system, and find a way to improve his help defense – which I think is a function of lackadaisial effort, and NOT TALENT.
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We have issues all the way through this roster – why the focus on Bargnani. His disappearance won’t make the Raptors any better. Hell, our offense will suffer.
Is the new team motto: “We kept them to 80 points. Unfortunately … we only got to 71”.
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What’s wrong with the SBN blogs. this is the second one that looks all messed up.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Nov 10, 2010 8:21 PM EST reply actions
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