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Tip-In: Satisfaction - Raptors Beat Knicks 108 to 103 in Final Pre-Season Game

With last night's win over the New York Knicks, the Toronto Raptors finish the pre-season with a 4 and 4 record. Franchise gives some thoughts...

Star-divide

It's pretty hard as a fan of the Toronto Raptors not be be satisfied with last night's 108 to 103 win over the New York Knicks.

First, it gave Toronto a .500 record in pre-season.  No, not exactly the Larry O'Brien trophy, but some necessary confidence-building victories.

Second, the win was over the New York Knicks, a team they play to open the season next Wednesday and a club they'll likely be fighting with for a playoff spot.  (Yes I said playoffs, and I'll explain why in a minute.)

Third, this was in my books the team's most complete effort of the pre-season.  There wasn't a single Raptor who failed to bring it and this was the best the club's looked so far.

And finally, the game was possibly Toronto's most exciting from a viewing perspective this pre-season, perfect as a showcase considering the game was played before some rabid basketball fans at Montreal's Bell Centre.

A win-win situation all around I'd say.

There are still some areas of concern, especially on D where far too frequently back-door cuts were left unguarded, but generally this looked like a team ready to start the season.

Unlike say the New York Knicks.

I know Danilo Gallinari wasn't playing, and neither was Toney Douglas, but woah...not sure how all these "experts" are seeing a playoff team from this group.  

(Side bar - in fact, having now watched many teams that are supposed to be better than the Raptors in the East this pre-season, Indiana, New Jersey, Philly, New York etc, I'm not sure this won't be another year of dogfights for the 8th and final playoff spot.  I've got Miami, Boston, Orlando, Atlanta, Chicago and Milwaukee as locks, not necessarily in that order, but after that?  Are any of these other clubs actually that good?)

I mean look at the Knicks.

No depth, some pretty suspect NBA talent after the starting core, and very little in the way of defense or rebounding. One of our readers commented that watching the Knicks reminded him of the Raptors in fact during part of the Babcock era; essentially Chris Bosh and that was it and I had similar thoughts as only Amar'e Stoudemire really stood out last night.  The rest of the team is a bit of a strange collection of projects like Anthony Randolph, shots in the dark like Timofey Mozgoz, and inefficient types like Wilson Chandler.  If the Raptors put together collective efforts this season much like they did last night, I'm going to say that they'll finish with a better record than New York.

And really, that's what this pre-season has shown me.

There's not much "upper-tier talent" on this Raptors squad, but there's some great chemistry and depth, and if the team can put that together as a complete package for 48 minutes every night, they'll be quite competitive.

Part of this is players knowing their roles, and I think that was my favourite part about last night.

Kleiza and Bargnani were the offensive aggressors for the starters yet neither forced things.  1 rebound from Andrea is pathetic, yes ha ha, but outside of that I really like his game last night and he had the team's best +/- when all was said and done.

DeMar DeRozan looks more and more comfortable going to the rim, especially in traffic, a great sign despite the fact that he was rewarded for his fervor with a dislocated finger.

Even David Andersen got in on the action, dominating on offense and even executing a perfect Aussie rendition of the "Dream Shake!"

And there was Reggie Evans nearly outrebounding the entire Knicks frontcourt himself (he had 11 boards, Mozgov, Stoudemire and Chandler had a combined 12), making sure the offence moved (he had 3 assists), and all the while taking attempting only one field goal.

It was a joy to behold and even the bench got in on the act, right down to guys like Julian Wright (who threw down some nasty dunks in garbage time) and Joey Dorsey (2 points, 3 assists, a block, a steal and 4 rebounds in 12 minutes of action.)

Most importantly though in my books, Jose Calderon looked like an NBA player again.

Actually, he looked better than Jack on the night as he finished with 11 points, 6 assists and 2 steals in only 16 minutes, but I'm hoping Jay Triano keeps him on this second unit.  Surrounded by athletic, scoring types such as Weems and Barbosa, things seemed to open up for Jose and suddenly he was making bursts to the rim, and finding guys like Amir Johnson for open dunks in transition.  I can't overstate how important a top-performing Calderon is to this team so again, last night was a sight for sore eyes.

The final thing I want to touch on here is the coaching situation...

...which I think has been great.

Triano's called out his troops, made changes when he's thought things haven't been working, and demanded accountability, another sight for sore eyes.

The team just looks more cohesive and prepared then they did last year, and I thought a great example of this was Solomon Alabi's performance in the game's final minute.

Alabi struggled box score wise (2 points, 2 fouls, 2 turnovers, -10 in about  3 minutes) but watching him calmly and effectively help the Raps break the Knicks' late-game full-court press made me nod my head.  It was a subtle thing, but a sign of a well-coached team whose lessons and schemes had been learned from players 1 and 5 to 10 and 15.

So final pre-season thoughts?

In all honesty the team played better overall than I expected.

They struggled against expected upper echelon clubs like Chicago and Boston, yet beat and beat up on lesser foes such as Phoenix and New York.

What does that mean come regular season?

It's hard to say, but there were enough positive signs in the last few games for me to think that this team won't be New Jersey level bad this coming year.

There will be many nights where they struggle against simply more talented teams, but through most of the pre-season I saw a much more cohesive group take the court then the last two years, and that should go a long way towards future success, especially once management bolsters the club's talent.

But enough pre-season talk...

...let's get the real season under way...

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Jack plays better on second unit now Jose plays better on second unit. Must be the speed and athletic qualities of the second unit. The Montreal arena…..wow it sure looks like a place to watch a basketball game. Still can’t stand MD and JA commentators maybe riding a bike and wearing ipod in the way to go.Sure will help stay in shape for next season’s golf. Sneaking in the 8th spot????Tall order but possible.Very impressed with DD. A star in the making?

by Davl on Oct 23, 2010 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m not going to get TOO carried away though…this still looks like a 30 win team to me but if they can consistently beat teams like the Knicks and 76ers, of which there are a lot in the East…who knows right?

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 23, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe it is playing against backups?

by dhackett1565 on Oct 23, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Starting to like some of the pieces

Reggie Evans is the new J.Y.D. — and will be a fan favourite if he keeps bringing the same energy that he’s been showing in the pre-season. He’s even passing out after his offensive rebounds!

Derozan learned to dribble! Yes, he still has too many turnovers, but I’ve already seen him beat his man off the dribble more times this pre-season that I remember all of last year. His crossovers last night were sweet!

Kleiza is a major upgrade over the Ottoman. He’s 6 years younger, half the salary, and he actually plays hard. He might not get as many assists, but since the Raptors already have 2 PGs, we don’t need a point-forward.

Andersen can actually play! He may not be great at the defensive end, but he’s got a pretty good repitoire on offense. He’s also a bit scrappy, which fits with the 2010-2011 theme for the Raps.

I personally don’t expect to see this team in the playoffs, but that leaves the door open for a pleasant suprise (the 8th seed).

As for the Knicks… they may be getting the #1 pick in the lottery. Imagine if Amare gets injured (as he’s been known to do)!!!

by B.C. on Oct 23, 2010 9:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Klieza and Barbosa have been amazing pickups for the Raptors this year. They both are freelance players that can create for themselves.

Off-topic… Kleiza looks like that veteran who plays in his work clothes on the streetball court that doesn’t seem to miss and smokes in-between games.

by Slick_Rick on Oct 23, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

One of Jack’s criticisms peviously was that the Raps had too many ‘milk drinkers’.

Kleiza is all whiskey baby.

by CamHilton on Oct 23, 2010 2:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Nice effort

The MSG announcers were impressed with the Raptors. Found myself correcting them sometimes.
Bittersweet for me. Maybe the pundits are wrong and we are not a bottom 3 lottery bound team.
Evans has played his role perfectly for the last two games.
Amir’s foul trouble has got to be a concern.
Has PG become our biggest concern? In a just world has Marcus Banks earned playing time
Demar’s preseason is a reflection of the work done in his offseason. Ball handling and outside shot in his game have both improved, but importantly, must continue to do so.
Think we got a Good Sonny/ Bad Sonny in the making. Lets hope good triumphs.
Bargnani and Anderson.s game sure are similiar. Anderson is the better ball handler. Bargnani’s attempts at dribbling have been humurous so far.
Speaking of Bargnani. The one rebound just can’t cut it.

by Tinmann on Oct 23, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I dunno about Banks… from my perspective he looked fairly awful in the few minutes he played last night (excet for a couple good defensive plays).

One rebound is fine with me if he is being effective. Had the best +/- on the team last night, so he rebounded as much as he needed to. When he is costing the team something with his rebounding is when it is an issue.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 23, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

not that it changes the substance all that much

but I counted at least three. These are the ugly. The good are the 15 points in 24 minutes Defense was not bad. Rebounding has to improve, no doubt. At this point it is just a matter of focus.

by renato on Oct 23, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

One star PG away

The Raptors are a decent team and will be competitive against 2nd tier teams. They matchup well with teams that are undersized and don’t have a formidable centre. At best they will slide into the eighth spot and at worst they will just miss the playoffs (possibly 9th). So, overall they will be no worst for ware when it comes to last season with CB4. They will be a more exciting team this season because they will play more in the open court. However, they will not be able to play in a structured 1/2 court style where having a good post-presence underneath will be essential.

The main thing that is missing from the Raptors squad is a legit starting PG. The numbers that both Calderon and Jack put up is equivalent to one Chris Paul. I’m not saying that they should make a push for Chris Paul (specifically), but they need to find a solid PG that will end all this controversy about who should start. Only time will tell which team will be willing to part with their floor general.

by Slick_Rick on Oct 23, 2010 10:18 AM EDT reply actions  

great game

The game was great to watch live, the energy in the building was crazy..hell if you guys want to send your team over here for a season I got no problem with that lol. Your right francise I don’t see how people or " experts" are saying the knicks are a playoff team? Seeing them live they didn’t really impress me at all..they better get carmelo there or I don’t see them having a good season. Off topic did you guys see what happened to the suns last night? I don’t care if its pre-season or not how the hell you gonna let a team score 144 points on you?? I don’t think that game went into overtime either. That’s just borderline retarded.

by sherwin316 on Oct 23, 2010 10:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Now that the disillusionment

of the Bosh-less era is starting to subside…. we can realize that yes there is life after Bosh.

So much emphasis was put in to how ‘great’ Bosh was, people have (and in some cases still do) expected this team to be incredibly bad simply because he is gone. The thing is while he was good, he was not great. Or he was atleast not good enough to be the difference maker.

This team is just as good as any of the ‘other’ 9 teams in the east. While they can just as easily make the playoffs as come in last… I think you will see a tight battle for 7th-15th in the east (actually let me call it 8th to 15th as there will most definetely be a ‘suprise’ team but goodness knows I have no idea who that will be).

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Oct 23, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree

The issue with a lot of teams in the NBA is that they are compelled to adopt star system basketball for marketing purposes at the detriment of the actual basketball played. If the emphasis was squarely on team play a lot of these teams might fare better both in terms of wins and financials. Think of Indiana for a moment. Most of the pieces Raptors fans are asking for they supposedly have. Solid starting calibre PG – check, reliable scoring wing – check, traditional, post playing centre (who hasn’t really been known for his rebounding) – check. And yet their prospects for success are the same, if not marginally better than the current Raptors team. They have a “star” who consumes way more salary than he’s worth and so their team is at a disadvantage going forward.

If the “star” player approach to team building wasn’t so overvalued, the league would be in a much better position in more markets, because teams would be more financially flexible to build deeper more balanced squads.

The analysis we’ve seen about teams projected performance this year and in previous years is coloured by star-centric thinking. A team like Milwaukee was given no respect going into last year, but to account for their surprising performance players on their team have been anointed star calibre this year (Bogut, Jennings) so that now they fit within the star-centric framework.
 
The Raptors may have lucked out in not having to commit so much salary to Bosh. In the years to come financial flexibility might be the most important weapon and not because it allows you to sign a big name but because it gives you resources to always augment your existing talent base through value signings and transactions.

This year will be interesting to watch for so many reasons.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Oct 23, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of good points here that I agree with, particularly about the on-court and off-court benefits of not having a star.

I’m also very scared that we might be borderline decent this year as a result of being greater than the sum of our parts. This is good for Jay Triano’s job prospects (which I believe are much stronger for him and BC than people think, regardless of what happens), but not so much for getting a high pick. I care much more about the latter than the former.

by RaptorsAddict on Oct 23, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

100% in agreement

Quite the dilema, is it not.

by Tinmann on Oct 23, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is where luck in the draft lottery and good scouting come into play.

by DW19 on Oct 24, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very Suprised

 to see no calls from posters to give Marcus Banks more minutes after last nights game. cough

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Oct 23, 2010 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

I’d still give him more minutes. He was 0 for 3 on O, but his D was there again.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 23, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is very important who he is on the floor with. Banks, Barbosa, DeRozan, Kleiza, Bargs would work. He needs to have a ot of gifted offensive players arond him to hide his practical uselessness on O. He was brutal last night because he was leading a bunch of scrubs (notice that Weems actually led the plays most of the time).

by dhackett1565 on Oct 23, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, allowing Banks to be a defensive specialist with that unit might just work well. Not sure what his rebound rate is like, but I wouldn’t be averse to sending him inside to look for rebounds on offense, and if he gave us a few of those per game with good D I would be very happy. One thing I think is this, something I never thought I’d say: Marcus Banks is going to sign another NBA contract. Crazy, but true.

by RaptorsAddict on Oct 23, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defensive specialist

Hey, I agree that Banks earned the right to play(or was it Jose horrible start) but I don’t think anyone, especially leftovers from last season, on the Raptors has earned the moniker “defensive specialist”.

by Tinmann on Oct 23, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Banks can’t do anything but defend. As such, defensive specialist.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Banks has a role to play on the team. There have been many nights when the top guards in the league almost single handily have beaten the Raps. Banks is without question the best PG defender we have, why not use him in the role of a disrupter against the likes of Rose, Chris Paul, Wade, Jennings, etc. 5-10 minutes a game in that role would also give Jack and Calderon more energy when they are back on.

by MMBL10 on Oct 23, 2010 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

That’s a great way to use him. And when we play the Knicks, Magic, etc. with guards who don’t torch us continuously we can use him less.

by RaptorsAddict on Oct 23, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

let me ask everybody this

Seeing how this team is now and we do seem to play well against the weaker teams (and seeing the knicks & sixers not conviced their playoff teams) maybe this team could make it to the 8th seed..but is that what we want?? A lot of people on here Love a shot at the Barnes kid (even tho he hasn’t played a lick of college ball yet) if anything we need a young PG for this group Kyle irving is who I think they should go for..but do we want to stink up enough to hopefully get a high pick or try and sneak into the playoffs..judging by some of the post in the last few months I think everybody wants it both ways.

by sherwin316 on Oct 23, 2010 1:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I say just let the season play out.

We can worry all we want and try and predict what is going to happen but no one has the answers so lets just enjoy basketball finally being back and let the year unfold.

If we do compete then great, lets try and sneak into the playoffs and who knows what can happen once you get in. If we tank like everyone says then we get a high pick and can get a kid like Barnes or Irving to jump start this organization. I look at it as a win win.

All I know is I am happy basketball is back and it’s an exciting time in the league right now so even if the Raps suck I’ll still watch.

by JAYson G on Oct 23, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

The management has a clear choice: they can either trade all their vets and go super young, or they can keep them and try to make the playoffs, at which time they will promptly be swept. We need to see beyond the one year focus and see the big picture: there is no better way to go into the next CBA than with youth on rookie contracts, massive salary cap space and lots of future draft picks headed back. The added benefit of this is that you get a few years of really high draft picks to go with our other youth, the downside is we miss the playoffs and MLSE makes less money as people are less interested in a rebuilding team (although I find this last part to be minimal – the Raps fans are loyal, knowledgeable and committed and would still support a rebuilding squad if it was clear that the team had a plan). Instead, we’re headed for Maple Leaf Hell of perpetual mediocrity. Championships, or nothing, if you ask me. And the only way we’re going to do that is if we get dynamic superstars in the draft – they ain’t coming as free agents.

by RaptorsAddict on Oct 23, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with everything you said and that would be my ideal road map for the Raps

If i could pick the future for the Raps it would be suck this year (as much as it pains me to say it) Get a top 5 pick and build this team with a solid young core of Demar, Davis, Weems, and a top 5 draft pick (Hopefully this Barnes kid from UNC to complete the Young Gunz)

All I’m saying is that we can’t predict the future so worrying about it is all a moot point. It’s gonna be what it’s gonna be and worrying about isn’t going to get you anywhere. I am just going to sit back and see where the chips fall.

by JAYson G on Oct 23, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where that line of thinking falls short

Is that championships have a lot to do with luck and timing. Your rookie contracts have to be aligned so that you’re underpaying for most of your talent before the raises kick in for the best performers. It’s nice to always want to accumulate young assets but available playing time impacts how much of a contribution a young player can make.

What you seem to be a proponent of is the Portland model, which over the last few years has worked out nicely in terms of on-court performance, shrewd drafting, a deep pocketed owner and a patient fanbase but that took TEN years and even that ship is under some strain of late with Fernandez, Oden’s injury situation, Roy’s injury situation, and Oklahoma’s emergence as an equivalent or greater force threatening to usurp that team’s position in the hierarchy of teams. Even Oklahoma, if you count the Seattle years, took a while to get where they are. And there is no guarantee of championships in either teams case.

What Toronto has to plan for is a team that reaches it’s optimal point at the same time Boston starts its eventual attrition, Orlando becomes too expensive to maintain and begins falling off, and Atlanta can’t afford to keep key pieces. I honestly don’t see the Miami situation being maintained beyond three very expensive years, but any of those three make exceptional trading chips that could restock that roster with talent and picks rather quickly.

I want good basketball consistently and a plan for continuous competitiveness. The championship is gravy on a well prepared turkey dinner

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Oct 23, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's tough to try and time your teams rise to the upper ecehelons as others fall

Because you just don’t know what other teams are going to do or how they are going to draft. Trying to map out your own teams success is hard enough, but trying to do it while mapping out the downfall of the other teams seems impossible because you have no idea what they will be doing. You can guess at it but you just never know.

Maybe the Celtics have a superstar in the making in Avery Bradley and he replaces Ray Allen and the Celtics don’t miss a beat and they keep on being a top 4 team in the east for another 5 years? Or maybe they get someone great in the next draft, or a big FA pickup. Scenarios like that are possible for all top teams and you can’t try and predict the other teams business. All the Raps can do is plan their own future and just hope that when they have gotten to their peak that it is higher than all the other teams. It won’t be an overnight fix and will take a couple of good drafts and good FA pick ups but it’s possible. But to try and time it for the fall of other teams seems too hard and could leave a team in waiting mode afraid to pull the trigger because there will always be great teams. You just have to hope and get lucky that when the Raps are at their best it’s at a time when other teams aren’t as fortunate.

by JAYson G on Oct 23, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usually I back Bargnani

But I was thoroughly annoyed by him having 1 rebound….lowest of all the starters.

by HDave on Oct 23, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Annoyed?

.
I think you’re just annoyed at Bargnani …….. for being Bargnani.
.

by RapthoseLeafs on Oct 23, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry RaptorsHQ - You're too soft

I will continue to bash Bargnani until he is playing like a #1 pick. Bargnani fans are probably gloating that he scored 15 points, top on the team, had a much improved +13, meaning Knicks did not score more when he was on the floor, etc. But playing for more than 23 minutes and yet Bargnani can only get one official rebound? How many Raptors fans would agree that Bargnani must be a bloody stiff out there? The tallest guy on the floor and yet have only one rebound? And Triano, what game were you watching? If you are still the coach, your job is to light a fire under Bargnani to get him into the game and get that g*dd**n rebound. Raptors played like short-handed because all Evans did was rebound without contributing on the offense with Bargnani doing the shooting without rebound. Two players doing what Bargnani should be doing by himself. At the most, that is a C performance to me. On top of that, Bargnani played real shitty, almost non-existent D. On all the easy back door baskets, where the f*** is your big center? I’d like to ask Triano, what does he expect from his “supposedly” most dominant player. Don’t use this is a pre-season game excuse on me.

by Richard L on Oct 23, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions  

So, the Raps were playing 4 on 5 the whole time he was on the floor, while he played terrible defence, and didn’t rebound (which is apparently a problem because the other team would then get more possessions), and during this time the Raptors outscored the opposition?

by dhackett1565 on Oct 23, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Triano was pretty good at calling out Bargs for most of the pre-season so far, so let’s just let this one go. When you coach someone, you can’t be negative on them for every single game otherwise they’ll just tune you out, or worse, they’ll never develop. It’s the last pre-season game, the Raptors won, and so let’s just let the team have a little bit of a reprieve before the real work begins.

Cause I assure you, starting out on the West Coast is going to be pretty darn ugly

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 23, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

RL, feel free to fill this forum up with Bargnani complaints. Do you think Bargnani, Triano, Colangelo or anyone else who matters is going to care?

by DW19 on Oct 24, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm back on this blog!

been busy with baseball and all ( i love baseball more than i like b-ball BTW)
i caught the first half last night.
there is going to be a lot of misplays/turnovers this season.
what i love is that they fight/hassle almost the whole time.
it is going to be a an up and down season but i still going to watch

by elpikiman on Oct 23, 2010 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I must agree. The Raps did impress me in the preseason. It’s still does not change my mind that they will suck this season, however.

by Jeffrey Thompson on Oct 23, 2010 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Good start

.
… atta boy …. a Rap fan all the way.
.

by RapthoseLeafs on Oct 23, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Credit where it's due...

nothing to do with the Raptors but the Dream Shake comparison was all me…

You’re welcome Franchise…

by Mikthaniel on Oct 23, 2010 9:22 PM EDT reply actions  

wow.. big trash dump on the knicks from a preseason game.

We’ll see come the 28th if your write up gives teh knicks any more credit than what lack of credit you gave in this one.

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Oct 25, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions  

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