Tip-In: Raptors Bulled Over by Chicago, 109-90
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintVicious D chimes in with his first look at the Raptors in this young pre-season. And while it's too early to judge a lot of things, the last two games have proven to be fairly difficult to watch even if you're a staunch Raptors supporter.
Well that wasn't a whole lot of pretty was it?
If you're a Raptors fan and managed to somehow find the game yesterday, you witnessed a Chicago Bulls team expose your Raptors with a fairly sound 109-90 drubbing. And if you didn't and managed to go onto NBA.com after the game to look at some highlights, you saw a game that seemed to be dominated with Bulls highlights.
Let's try and get the good out of the way first.
Leandro Barbosa showed that he can become a catalyst on some nights when the Raptors absolutely need some sort of scoring presence. Leading the Raptors scorers, Barbosa has shown that he so far has few effects from the early ankle worries to start his Raptors' career. And while the Raptors struggle to find him the proper shoes, he continues to be an offensive threat that the Raptors will need.
The Raptors also continued to press their competition by getting 17 turnovers out of the Bulls, including 11 steals.
And Andrea Bargnani got on track somewhat.
With his most productive game of the preseason, the big Italian managed to score in double figures and even grabbed a few rebounds. Heck, with three blocked shots, we could say that the Italian has shown a little life.
But that's about where the prettiness stops.
Coming off the bench after Jay Triano and the Raptors fan population shows their impatience, Bargnani scored six of his points from beyond the arc and was therefore, only 1-6 from within the arc. Being replaced by the likes of David Andersen should have been enough to embarrass Bargnani into action, but at the same time, the kind of action we need has to lead to more baskets from within the arc. And take what you will from Barg's stats because he looked about as comfortable as mormon in a bikini. Nevertheless, I guess you have to start somewhere and going back to his "comfort zone" to get established is something.
Looking at the rest of the team as a whole, you just have to start shaking your head. With exactly half the free throw attempts of the Bulls, I keep wondering where the personal fouls production against opponents is going to come from. Quoting from Butch Carter and his famous philosophy, fouls are how you make sure you are playing against the other team's B-team. It's an easy way to get into a rhythm, conserve your own energy, and get the opponent's key players off the floor. Without those free throws the Raptors will be in it tough for most of the year, and it's a pretty big concern for this fan. It's just not going to be acceptable if the Raptors are half as good as other teams at getting to the line while only making less than 70% of their shots.
The other staggering statistic is how Joakim Noah nearly managed to out rebound the entire Raptors front court. Noah, who had 14 rebounds, was barely out rebounded by David Anderson (3), Amir Johnson (3), Reggie Evans (5), Andrea Bargnani (3), and Joey Dorsey's (1) combined 15 rebounds. No matter how you make choose to analyze this stat, there's just nothing positive to look at. Not necessarily surprising, but it's perhaps an indictment of the Raptors as a whole and an indication of how important Linas Kleiza's work in rebounding is sorely needed.
But the thing about pre-season is exposing these flaws early so that Jay Triano can work on them before the season starts. While I am throwing last night's game in a fairly negative light, I also think that these games should be indicators of just how much we should be tempering our expectations. And while I think the Phoenix game sure was fun to watch, games like the Boston game and yesterday's Bulls game offer a lot more insight into the kind of work that Triano and his staff need to put in with this team.
And yes, I'm trying my hardest to not just toss the entire book at this team right now because for the next month or two, this team is going to be very much a "work in progress".
With the next game being tomorrow, it'll be a pretty quick turnaround time for Jay and his staff to try and get things set against Philly. Sure, we're not talking about one of the big ticket teams of the year, but when it comes down to making sure these Raptors have a magical season, Philly is going to be one of those teams I'll be using to measure our boys against.
They simply have to be better than teams like the 76ers if they hope to overachieve.
With four regular season games coming up against Philly and the 76ers still struggling to come to terms with melding Elton Brand into their team, this simply has to be one of the teams that the Raptors have to be better than this year. As the Raptors develop into a more athletic team playing aggressive D, they should theoretically be able to match up very well against a Philadelphia team that has lost the inside presence of Samuel Dalembert. Andre Iguodala is prone to making a lot of turnovers and Leandro Barbosa is quick enough to defend Louis Williams should he start to torch the Raptors' point guards. I believe the Raptors should have plenty of opportunities to run out and recover.
But for me, this Raptors team is going to win based on a couple factors that are a concern for me this year. One is going to be the free throw shooting aspect of this club. Granted, we all knew that supplementing Bosh's nearly 10 trips to the line a game was going to be near impossible, the free throw percentage of the team has been of great concern to me. They simply have to make every free point count.
The other is going to be turnovers and specifically how many they can generate at a given time. With the Raptors relying a lot more on their aggressive D this year and their shooting percentage projected to dip, there's only a couple ways where the Raptors can generate more possessions over the course of a game. We saw what a lack of aggression led to in the Bulls game and with rebounding going to be an ongoing concern, I'm going to look to one of the Raptors' few projected strengths to even out their deficiencies.
However, what I want to see the Raptors do more than anything against Philly is just compete hard.
I don't believe that if Jay Triano chooses to start guys like Andersen and Wright that the Raptors will have a ton of possibilities to win in the pre-season, but I think what we all want to see is Triano solidify the identity that he wants for this team. Even in the Boston loss, the Raptors were fairly aggressive and kept the game pretty close when Boston's starters were in the game. It's little indications like this that are encouraging to me and here's hoping that tonight's Philly game will go towards cementing that.
At the very least, that effort will make the game entertaining.
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Never really in it
Chicago had the five best players on the floor last night.
Our lack of inside presence was exposed. BC has got to be looking.
Bargnani had a five minute stretch where he was playing inspired ball.
sorry VD, but the Raps won’t be better than any other teams in their division. They’ll do better than the Nets 12-win season, about double, still good for last place.
Like I haven't heard that before
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 15, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice to see Bargs go from 2-17 combined in the first two games to 3-9 in this one. That’s exactly the type of shooting you want to see from your 7-foot centre.
I also like how Bargs managed to have more fouls than rebounds.
But he blocked three shots, so that must mean he was playing great defensively.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 9:47 AM EDT reply actions
Totally
Vicious D, not sure what game you were watching… But I would not have put Bargnani’s “performance” last night as a positive to take away from that game. He basically got worked by Noah and co. for 4 quarters.
Well, the team basically got worked over by Noah. I’m just trying to see some kind of… “improvement” from bargs from the first two games. Cause right now, it’s just going to be turning into the everyone blasting Bargs show.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Stat-based evaluation
As badly as Bargnani apparently played last night, he and Dupree were the Raptors leaders in +/-. Now that probably proves that +/- is a useless stat, but I guess it gives Bargnani-boosters at least one positive to take out of last night’s game.
Last time I checked, you already deemed Bargnani as a player who has hit his peak. If you have no significant expectations from him, why do you continue to bash him every time he plays. If you didn’t expect him to be a franchise player, as you have continually emphasized and become obsessed with, then why does it surprise you when he sucks. If you thought he wasn’t going to do well, like you did when you brought up a shit load of advanced stats to prove your point, then this should come as no surprise to you. At some point, you need to hold back and realize there’s other facets to this team that have stunk it up too. When you zero in on one player, a player who you knew wouldn’t do well I might add, it almost feels like you’re dealing with a personal agenda of some sort. Bash ’em all, ’cause Bargnani was far from the only problem yesterday.
I’d add one thing, why would people continue to read RHQ when they already know what it is going to say? “Oh, another Bargnani sucks article, what a surprise, I wonder what the Sun has to say about the game…”
Is that really what I said up there? I’m pretty sure I called out most of the team.
And yeah, I realize it’s going to be a long season if we just focus on Bargs because I’m going to get a headache. He’s not as bad as Hoffa, but I worry that he’ll soon get the same ire as Hoffa if he doesn’t find his form quick.
And to be honest, part of that has to be on Colangelo for basically putting it out there that it’s sink or swim time for Bargs to step up and be the man
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Bargnani ... means more Viewers
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If we stop talking about Andrea, what would we talk about?
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As bad as the team played against Chicago (with Jay & his Frankenstein experiments), it’s a simple stat that says Bargs (and a rotating combination of 4 other guys), played +4 against Noah. You can call it a useless stat (most stats by themselves are pretty useless – except the final score), but to say his presence didn’t contribute to this +4 stat, is just biased hate. “It was the other guys … blah blah blah”.
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AB is not a #1 overall pick, and never wanted to be one. Just like Bosh is not a Franchise player, although he wanted to be one. If I didn’t know better, I’d say some Rap fans are simply not fans. We constantly beat the hell out of players who “like being in Toronto”, as opposed to Bosh, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Kobe, Rose, and on and on, who won’t have anything to do with NBA in Canada. And after three f*@king preseason games, all I hear is “Bargs is not worthy of this team. Bargs can’t do this. Bargs can’t do that.” Damn, there are a lot of guys on this team that have trouble being good at ONE thing, let alone have a multiple of skills. We boo Carter, just so we can watch him torch our a$$. We taunt LeBron, and wonder why he kicks butt.
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Rant aside, I wish we could be fans, as I envision fans – we cheer, not boo. We have a minimal team this year, with a destination unknown. A team that everyone has been screaming for – develop the youth thing – instead of going after high paid morons (sorry Turk). I’d prefer to see where that takes us. And if they suck (at season’s end), then yeah, bitch away. Until then, try to be fans.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Oct 13, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
So we should bury our heads in the sand and believe our team is great? That is why the Toronto Maple Leafs are 43 years without a championship. If more Leaf fans pointed out the teams weaknesses(and backed it up with their wallets), maybe the owners would take notice and actually produce a winning product. It is all well and good to be a fan of the team but being a fan doesn’t mean you have to pretend you do not understand the game enough to know you have some issues with the way your team has been run.
I am not a huge AB fan but I also know it is way too early to throw the baby out with the bath water when talking about his performance. At the end of the day though there is nothing wrong with showing concern for your alleged franchise players lack of effort in the early going of the pre-season. As a number of people pointed out, the players on this team should get their minutes based on effort and AB is really putting the screws to Triano to follow through with that philosophy or lose the rest of the players. It is not like AB is being paid 10 million dollars a year or anything (sarcasm font).
+1
Though I am a Bargs defender (not fanboy), I agree that if Triano feels Andrea isn’t playing with enough passion or energy, he should be sat. Problem is, does BC allow that to happen? I’ve had my suspicions in the past about Colangelo being a heavy handed GM and forcing Triano to give certain players a certain amount of minutes, Bargnani being cheif among them. A bit conspiracy theorish, I know, but I think it’s plausible.
Also, if we had a decent center coming off the bench, it might be easier for Jay to pull that trigger and sit Bargs. Unfortunately we don’t.
I’ve had my suspicions in the past about Colangelo being a heavy handed GM and forcing Triano to give certain players a certain amount of minutes, Bargnani being cheif among them. A bit conspiracy theorish, I know, but I think it’s plausible.
I don’t think that qualifies as a conspiracy theory. It’s probably pretty close to the truth, actually.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 14, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree with you 100% that Bargnani was far from the only problem last night. I don’t think there is one top-level starter on this team… in a league where you require two or three to contend. I’d like a lot of these guys as role players (Kleiza, Barbosa, etc.) — but they’re going to be forced into expanded roles this season.
But I think you’re somewhat confused — it’s not ME who expects Bargs to be a franchise player. It’s the organization that handed him a $50-million extension and continues to feature him as the prominent piece of their marketing efforts.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta market around someone – who would you suggest? Some of the other not-top-level-starters on the team?
by dhackett1565 on Oct 13, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The Young Gunz thing is cool… although I’m sure the NBA has chimed in on the appropriateness of using “gunz” in any marketing.
Honestly, not that I’m a marketing guy — but I would’ve really de-emphasized individual players. It’s almost to the point where you’d have to advertise LeBron, Durant, Kobe, etc in order to get people in the door.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
You market this club as a “team…”
Raptors have done this in previous eras, not sure why they couldn’t have done it more this year.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Oct 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I missed last night’s game but was waiting in anticipation for a good ol’ D Stance comment on his favourite player…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Oct 13, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
if Noah owned them last game, Brand and Dalembert are going to have FUN this game. Doesn’t Dalembert get 18~20 rebounds everytime they play the Raps? And Evans would usually pick up 12 or such too. Oh yeah, RE is on our team this time. Hmm, think he’s good for 12 against his old team?
Dalembert isn’t on philly anymore
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
re Sixers
Dalembert was traded to the Kings in the offseason. However, I see your about those active bigman types (ie Varejao) having big games against the Raptors rebound deficient front line in the past.
Given the lack of a talent advantage in other areas of the game, we can’t afford to have such a large gap when it comes to rebounding. Amir Johnson is going to have to continue to grow his game, both on offense and defense. Expectations have changed, and this team needs him to be more then just a JYD off the bench wonder. Those guys aren’t very hard to find, and are rarely given the security of a long term deal at close to MLE money.
False Hopes
I hope that the comments on this site do not continue to be an endless stream of “crucify Bargnani”. Who is it that has decreed that this young man is a francise player?. It is not his fault where he was drafted and I’m quite sure he has never advocated that he is the francise player.
He can be an excellent player on this team but thats it, nothing more.. Bosh had the advantage of an offence designed so that he touched the ball every time up. Is that the case this year with Bargs? Probably not.
It has been said many times and here it is again, the great majority of francise players are from the wing or guard positions because they can create better. Bargnani is not that.
Yes if they run the offense through him, he will likely be a 20 and 7 center but they are not. Anyway, let’s just put it to rest. Bargs should not have been drafted #1 and I’m sure he wishs he hadn’t been but that’s over. How well he does this year is going to be on the coach. Can the coach teach and motivate him?. Some coaches can develop players, some can’t. Some coaches can place players in systems so they can succeed, other can’t.
If the expectation is that Bargnani should become a superstar on this team then you will be bitching forever.
re: Bargs
I don’t think we can ever separate draft position from a player, especially when the player is still with the team that drafted him. Contrast how much guff Araujo got with the little that was written about Nathan Jawai (second rounder), and Patrick O’Bryant (acquired in three way deal for Will Solomon).
I believe that it gets worse when a team is in a time of transition, like the Raptors are now. The critical eye of the fan turns towards the players that are perceived to be grossly overpaid, or grossly underachieving compared to expectations.
When will the spotlight on Bargnani lessen? When there are other players on the Raptors worth highlighting, for either good or bad reasons. The Youing Gunz seem to have the backing of the Raptors marketing people, which diffuses Bargnani’s profile on the advertising scene. Should DeRozan or Weems “breakout”, then they will take on even bigger share of the public spotlight. Longer term, I see one of two scenarios being played out which lessen the fans wrath.
In scenario A, Bargnani wins some games for the team via the development of weaknesses or domination via his strengths. I’m thinking those flashbulb type memories, like “remember when Bargnani blocked 7 shots”, or “How about when he took the team on his back and fouled out the other team’s starters with a mix of drives and jumpers.” Those kind of moments, if a sign of a trend, would help solidify his image as a part of Raptor success. Bosh had them, Vince had them, Damon had them. One of those, These moments would be achieved via his skill, not his tenacity, hence why I omitted Antonio Davis.
In scenario B, he gets displaced from his starting spot, and the team starts making the playoffs. To clarify, this means that superior players leapfrogged him on the depth chart and he has settled into much more of a supporting role. He still makes All-NBA overpaid teams, but there other, positive factors which draw more attention.
Funny enough, with Bargnani taking so much of the criticism so far in pre-season it has been largely ignored that the YGZ have not done anything special up to this point. Let’s hope that both Bargs and YGZ show us something in the Philly game tonight.
Time
Vicious D commented further down how he’s looking for signs this season that the YGZ are becoming consistent, productive players. Bargs is past the need for signs, hints, glimpses of his talent.
The two evaluations points for Bargnani were his third year in the league, and the year before his eligibility for an extension. DeRozan has yet to reach either of those milestones, thus the focus is still more development over production.
Bargnani’s contract is a reflection of the importance that management places on his ability to be a factor on this team. The focus is on his production right now, and an objective evaluation of his future place in the teams plans. Amir is in the same boat, but at a much lower cap hit. This means that having Amir turn out to be a role playing big man is much easier to take, both for fans and the team capologist.
Going to play Devil’s Advocate here, and explore one possible future for Bargnani:
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Bargnani has reached his ceiling. He will always be a poor rebounder, due to a combination of lack of instincts and desire. His post skills will improve but not to the point where we can score against starters. His help defence will improve, but not to the point where he can protect the paint. He will hurt the opposition with his perimeter game (when in a good rhythm), but not as much as he hurts his own team via negative rebounding differential. His general demeanor is not suited to leadership, and would much rather be left alone to do his own thing instead of concerning himself with the performance and development of his teammates.
If the above scenario came to pass, I think he would be better off with a team that played a style that helped emphasize his strengths. If he’s a role player, then teams recruit those players to fit a role. They don’t allow the particular deficiencies of the player to affect personal decisions elsewhere on the court. If the player can’t complement the rest of the team, then he’s out the door to a place where he can.
I can’t accept Bargnani as a role player, and continue to have him on this team at that salary, with those particular weaknesses in his game. It is criticism coming from the hope for better things both for the player and for the team. I hope that he performs the point where he merits being built around. But five years into the experiment, the distance between where he is and where we need him to be is daunting.
So then Why Keep him??!!
If we accept that he will be at best a decent role player, why the hell would anybody want a role playing center who doesn’t actually do anything a centre should do?!!!!!!!!!!
Are we all content with a $50 million center who can shoot three pointers, can’t rebound, and can’t play defense? You Bargnani apologists make me sick, and your lack of basketball knowledge is comical. I don’t care when he was drafted… it’s worse that he got that extension, and it’s even worse that people get upset when he sucks and people bash him for it.
It’s funny.. I was about to post something about if this franchise is to turn it around, they need a value pick to come through.. and whaddaya know, a post I made 4 months ago was sitting on the right: http://www.raptorshq.com/2010/6/17/1523275/the-last-10-years-of-draft-winners
The key to to the future of this team isn’t Bargnani, it’s Weems, DD, Davis, Johnson and Alabi. 3 of the 5 need to become impact players. In my mind, the AB era is over, at least when in comes to making the playoffs.
Pretty much. However, unless Bargnani figures it out to become a more effective/consistent passer, he’s going to be a detriment to this team. But I’m going to give everyone a lot of rope right now…
I just hope I don’t get hung by it.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with your point here Ustation. It would be great if Bargnani turned into something, but that is looking less and less likely with every passing season. Can he become a complementary “near-star” at the level of a Detlef Schrempf or Toni Kukoc? That is starting to look like his ceiling if he can get his act together. Those are useful guys who can contribute, but they are not going to lead you to contention. Also, if Bargnani is going to start at centre he is going to have to reach the level of defensive play of a Rasho Nesterovic.
PS. I realize I am using all Euros in my comparisons. What can I say, it’s easier to think of them and I am being lazy.
+1000
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 15, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I just think the fan expectations of AB is wrong. Let’s forget where he was drafted for a bit, and realize he’s a niche role player. On most other team I bet he could be a 6th man of the year award winner. Unfortunately on ours he’s the “go to” guy.
It’s time to change our views on him, and move on. My time limit on him has now officially expired. I’m not saying he’s a bust ala Bargsbust™, but my opinion is he’s an effective role player. Done. Ideally, on a championship team, he’s first off the bench.
Ustation, this is completely reasonable and sensible post and I totally agree with your position. Bargnani could be a productive, useful utility forward off the bench with genuine 6th man potential. However, he can never start as centre for a team that hopes to be a contender. Unfortunately, a lot of Raptors fans had already reached this conclusion around 3 to 4 years ago. Before Colangelo gave him a $50 million dollar contract and pencilled him in as the de facto starting centre for the next half decade.
Totally agree Ustation
I went so far as saying that on the Fan590 this off-season during a roundtable…I just don’t think Andrea is a starter on a great team – he’s an effective 6th man who brings niche skills to the table.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Oct 13, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say he could potentially also be a ‘niche’ starter. So long as he is not the centre-piece, he has the potential to contribute meaningfully with the right pieces to complement him / for him to complement.
by dhackett1565 on Oct 13, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Still reading too much into things
Apparently the starting line up included David Anderson & Julian Wright? Apparently they barely ran any pick and rolls and allowed a lot of isos in their offence. Apparently they barely trapped. Here’s the thing. Is it not possible that Triano used that game simply for experimental purposes, not exposing his hand too much, and seeing how some players would work in certain situations. From the looks of it, this might have been a let Amir have a run kind of night. Some of you might dismiss this as blind optimism but why read so much into the negative results while so easily dismissing the positive results.
What if the Phoenix game was the type of play the Raptors aim to achieve, Boston was a measuring stick, and Chicago, being the first of a back to back, was the game Triano decided he could use to try some things? Look at what Boston did against Philly last night. Are the Raptors not allowed the same leeway
Tonight will be a decent indicator. Looking forward to it.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
Right, so it’s not exactly a good measure, especially since Kleiza didn’t play either.
However, everyone is also right in that this team didn’t put the effort we saw in the first two games. For whatever reason, the team just completely came up flat and didn’t even do anything too noteworthy.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I couldn’t care less about the results. I just don’t likely the downward trajectory of the performances by the team in general. Hopefully you are correct in your assessment HQI. Tonight is another game, so maybe tomorrow our opinion will be totally different.
I think it’s too soon to say a downward trajectory. But there will be games like this in the regular season and we’re going to have to write about them. I’m just not going to blow a gasket in pre-season. The question for me is tonight’s game as both Philly and Toronto are playing back-to-back pre-season games and I’m sure we want to see an improvement in the energy level compared to yesterday’s game.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Right on track, I guess
Have looked good in stretches, and can say am pleased with the effort I saw against both the Suns and the Celtics. Forget the score, because it really doesn’t matter.
The Bulls beat us handily at the game we hope to play. They outworked and out executed us all night. The talent level between the two teams was huge. Anyone notice Boozer was out?
Evans and Johnson both had two fouls early. I think Bargnani sat for first two and a half quarters.
Jay needs to figure out if Bargnani is up for the task. Feed him early and let him attempt to handle the ball. Did you see Noah dishing those dimes? Andrea needs to command the ball more down low. Our lack of inside presence has been exposed last two games. We have not attempted an inside game.
Yeah, getting Boozer back will really let this Chicago team flow and do some dangerous things… I just hope he doesn’t break his wrist eating his morning Wheaties :p
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Good summary VD....bang on
Last night was certainly a reality check.
I’m so tired of the AB bashing. Its all most of the posters can talk about. Yes he played poorly and has been disappointing this preseason. But the way everyone goes on and on and on and on, its like he is the defacto problem. Well guess what, he was a plus 4 last night. Does not mean he played well (he didn’t), it does however mean there were many other problems last night. He didn’t rebound….who did? His defense wasn’t good….whose was? The incessant bashing is getting so boring.
Jay needs to settle on a rotation soon. The radical lineup flipping and flopping is not helping. The Bulls rotation last night looked close to what you would expect during the year with Rose, Noah and Deng averaging 35 minutes.
Unfortunately, AB is going to get hit the most because the management of this team has emphasized his importance to this team going forward so when he doesn’t play well he is going to be a target. It may not be fair to him but it is a reality. Blaming guys like DD and Weems is pointless at this stage as they are both essentially 2nd year players still making their way in the NBA and trying to find their role and rhythm. AB has been in this league for 5 years now and it is time he at least started putting out a consistent effort. Maybe he is easing him self into this season and thus is not producing the way some of the fan base is looking for from him but fans have every right to expect more effort out of a guy making 10 million per year. If the effort was there I could live with less than stellar results but I just do not see that effort there every night.
re: Building a Foundation
I would draw a slight parallel between where we are now and the expansion days. I recall it being said that the team’s objective was to turn over that initial expansion roster as fast as possible. I intrepreted this to mean that having a team of players that were willfully chosen trumps a team that was brought together in a large part due to circumstance.
We need to find out the 80% ceilings on these guys over the next two or three years. Are they developing into a player who fits into the type of team we’re trying to build? Do they have the kind of value which would help us acquire a player that is a better fit for the emerging team identity? Weems is the first of these guys who I would measure by this standard. Weems enters restricted status after this season. Amir Johnson is a significant part of the big man rotation and salary structure, so he would be the next guy to evaluate, albeit over the next two years IMHO.
DeRozan is the organizational crown jewel, so he’s staying as long as he performs and merits minutes. Davis is the wild card, since he’s the only big on the roster with the potential to be a presence on both ends of the floor. Having him turn out great or just ok is what I see as the biggest question on this current Raptor roster. Even if we draft a great player in the first round this year, we need a support structure in place for any team success.
And that’s pretty reasonable I think. However, I’m still holding out that we’ll see a few things this year to give us that impression. Getting those three young gunz and having them be middling players won’t cut it either. When you look at a young core, do you think these guys are going to really compete with even the Clippers young core with Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon?
Well, I’ll hold off judgement but we need to see spurts or signs that they are going to grow into consistantly productive people.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It`s going to be a VERY LONG season for the Raps.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Oct 13, 2010 11:17 AM EDT reply actions
No problem. I’m tired of it too and I’m the most apologetic Bargs guy on the HQ staff… time to live up to that status for a bit lol.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m the most apologetic Bargs guy on the HQ staff
I think we should all chip in and buy you one of those Bargnani t-shirt/jerseys for doing your part to balance out my completely unjustified rhetoric ;)
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention irrational lol :p
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
C’mon — advanced stats make it perfectly rational!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh cold hard numbers are rational. Just your hatred of the man is pretty obsessive! :p
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t help it when it impacts my ability to enjoy my favourite sport and what should be my favourite team.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Real Expectations
Well perhaps we can form an alliance to fend off the “Bargs must be our super star” talk . We, meaning Raptbal, HDave, cmrm123 and Ustation who seem to have had enough of these unrealistic expectations for Bargs
By January, he will have reached his potential, 18-20 points and maybe 6-8 rebounds and a couple of blocks a game. Pretty darn good but it don’t sound like franchise numbers to me.
I'd hop on that right now..
…but Bargnani’s preseason performance has me feeling stupid for standing up for him. I won’t bash him, but hopefully he starts performing like a fringe-level starter for his backers’ sake.
Thanks for the Alliance
So, it is asked, who is our franchise player?. I would suggest to you that Jay Triano although not a player carries the importance of a franchise player on this young team. He has to demand and get max defensive effort and he has to make sure that the hot player on a particular night gets the ball. He has to be smart on the match ups and the substitutions.
This young team will be inconsistant so it will be very important to have those playing well on a particular night get the minutes
Franchise player?
Whoever they select with (hopefully) one of the top two or three picks in the 2011 Draft.
I believe the massive trade exception, if used correctly, could yield a franchise-type player.
But none exists on the current roster.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be surprised if the TPE could be turned into a franchise player, but if that that’s possible it would be great. Add to franchise-type players to the current roster and you would have a decent team.
The only way you get a franchise player with a TPE is if the other team is doing a complete blow up. Let’s see the possibilities:
Kobe – LA is still a powerhouse and have to be considered favourites to make the finals this season. No way is LA blowing it up this year or any time in the near future
James and Wade – The Heat only got them this offseason so they aren’t blowing it up this year. There would have a huge meltdown in the chemistry department for them to trade either of these guys next off season. Not sayin’ it’s not possible (Hello Delonte) but even if it occurs, Miami likely reloads instead of blowing it up.
Durant – Up and coming club would not blow it up this year or anytime soon.
Paul – To my mind, this is the only franchise-type player who plays on a team that might want to do a complete blow up and start from scratch. It would likely cost us our TPE and our first round pick unprotected this year (at a minimum). Would it be worth it? I’m not sure because this team doesn’t seem to have the supporting pieces.
Totally worth it. TPE only has value in a move like this, so you really aren’t losing anything there. That draft pick, in the best-case scenario, turns into a CP3 level talent. Why not cut out the middle man? CP is barely entering his prime, and would have some athletic young pieces (maybe not all of them, but some) around him. Trade an expiring Barbosa next year and maybe a Bargs or Jose or Jack for something half-decent and you might have something.
by dhackett1565 on Oct 13, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul’s contract expires at the end of next season (2012). There’s zero chance he’d re-sign here. We’d basically have another Bosh situation on our hands next year, which I’m not sure this franchise could take at this point.
So I wouldn’t do that deal.
Good point. CP3 will probably sign in NY in 2 years (depending on what happens with the CBA) so it would be foolish to trade away a potential top 4 or 5 pick for a guy who will be gone in 2 years and cannot help enough to make the Raptors into true contenders. If we got Paul and another player (say Carmelo Anthony) then making that trade would be worthwhile otherwise, say hello to the Harrison Barnes express.
TPE
I’m telling you right now, you are expecting WAY too much from the TPE. At best, Colangelo is going to turn it into a bad contract and a good young player or draft pick. Nobody is giving up franchise caliber players or picks that could yield them.
Not to mention, that any use of the TPE (in full) probably won’t happen until the season is over so as not to go into the luxury tax.
In my opinion, the best case scenario for the TPE is to get a bad contract (think Brand or Arenas), and a middle first round pick.
Sorry, when I said “franchise-type”, my thought process was more along the lines of an Andre Iguodala (big contract, franchise has drafted his successor with a high lottery pick, etc) as opposed to a LeBron, Durant or CP3. I think Iguodala could be the 3rd wheel on a contender.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 13, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Sadly, I’m not sure you could get Iguodala without throwing in Derozan. There would be better offers for him than just cap relief. If I were OKC, I’d offer Jeff Green, an expiring and a pick for Iguodala. That would be a good trade for OKC to get another consistent wingplayer who is a very good defender. It would put Iguodala in the role we saw him in for Team USA this summer, and Philly would get cap relief, a young player with upside and a pick.
I think Colangelo either needs to look at offering up the TPE as part of a multi-team deal that gets us multiple young players and/or picks, or take on a bad contract and pray someone gives them an unprotected first round pick.
If Philly offered Brand and an unprotected first rounder, it would take me about 5 seconds to accept that deal; but I doubt they’d offer it.
I should point out that you’d have to be creative to take on Brand. Our TPE isn’t quite large enough. You’d need to do a simultaneous transaction that would gain another 1.5 million TPE or get one from a third team.
The on;y way would be to trade a bunch of contracts for him, then absorb most of them back with the TPE. You can’t combine TPE’s to get a bigger one.
by dhackett1565 on Oct 14, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Even if we could acquire Iguodala, we wouldn’t be ready for him. To be the third wheel, he’d need the other top two wheels who at this point are just ping pong balls in Colangelo’s dreams.
The TPE sounds like a decent asset in theory, but it is devalued by the fact that Cleveland has one as well. I know there is a third out there somewhere, but can’t remember which team it belongs to. That’s three teams desperate to help facilitate transactions, instead of one team collecting offers.
Bargs, Bargs, Bargs
As much as there’s been a ton of back-and-forth on the Bargs bashing, I LOVE ALL OF IT.
Why?
Because there are some very astute points being made on both sides.
I’m going to save this for when I get back from Zombie-Sonics land later this week, but fans have been dealt a cruel hand with Bargs.
Essentially, as the top overall pick, IMMEDIATELY the expectations were pretty big, and justifiably so. No, not his fault he was picked first overall, agreed. But it’s tough for fans to swallow the fact that we SHOULDN’T expect franchise-player production from him given that draft status, AND, given Colangelo’s constant “pumping up” of his top pick…and yes, this includes the big contract extension.
The other cruel part is that he LOOKS like he should be able to do more…but he just doesn’t. Is it an effort thing? Sometimes it seems like it. Is it a question of being put in the “best possible situation.” That seemed to play a part when Bosh was here etc.
For me it’s tough because I’ve gone from defending my position the past few years that Bargs had basically maxed out and wasn’t a franchise or even all-star guy, to suddenly now having to stop discussing him in a negative manner at all, because I should have realized that’s all we’re going to get from him!
It’s an interesting situation.
In any event, I still think when the ridiculous pre-season line-ups settle down (come on, Andersen starting?) we’ll see the 18 and 6 Andrea we’re accustomed to.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Yes, you can’t speak negatively about bargnani or you will offend the sensibilities of the mental midgets that insist on defending the indefensible… It’s like pretending that Santa Clause and the tooth fairy still exist to protect the innocence of your three year old toddler… Please, for the sake of your credibility, don’t give in to the loud minority, call it how you (and every other intelligent person) sees it.
I think these points are exactly right. But. Maybe we should be focusing our anger on BC, since he drafted him, and he paid him, and he is marketing him? Bargs just takes what he can get, right?
What do you think? is the frustration most rightly targeted at the man actually making the decisions, Mr. BC?
The worst part of Bargnani - his contract
that keeps going up each year for 4 more… the Raps will be paying him $12M in 4 years from now for basically being a tall and slow 3-point specialist.
Someone needs to show Bargnani some Sam Perkins “Big Smooth” footage from when he was a slow 3-pt chucker (on the Pacers and Seattle) — at least he grabbed a few rebounds once in a while.
The final year of any contract is almost irrelevant – as an expiring contract can often be used to acquire solid talent. His second to last year is the real issue (if there is one), as he would be making the most at that time without an easy trade that season.
by dhackett1565 on Oct 14, 2010 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Franchise or VD....
can you tell me why the Raps wouldn’t sign a guy like Josh Boone over David Andersen? Josh has more defensive grit and rebounding abilities than D.A., and would provide the Raps with some much needed help in the cat. He’s no alstar, but has a bit of a nasty side to him.
I know it’s likely too late for this, but am I alone in this regard?
Andersen is… Taller? lol
And I guess he also has an outside shot.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 13, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
A) Taller, slightly. However, with the way the game is going, height at the 5 isn’t always mandatory. Most 5’s these days are actually true 4’s. Plus, Boone’s rebounding #‘s are much better than Andersen’s (give or take a few extra minutes of court time).
B) Ya, b/c all we need is another permiter shooter on this team.
I guess the Andersen acquisition makes sense should he be a cap relief guy in the near future. I guess I just liked the grit Boone plays with, and I’m sure he could have been had for cheap. He’s now on his way to China.
In the summer I talked about this Nicholas and had the same frustrations as you – there were unsigned players out there like Boone who I thought had skill sets that, you know, probably did a better job of “helping the team.”
But after a lot of discussion on the site, we came to the consensus that the Andersen move was really a financial and flexibility type transaction regarding the roster. And that probably explains the interest in guys like Dampier…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Oct 15, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
The Raptors traded a small TPE (acquired in the Suns deal for Barbosa) in exchange for Anderson. I am guessing that the TPE can be broken up, but cannot be packed with other assets. Thus other teams would have to want a ~1.8 million TPE as their only return in a trade. Since most bad contracts far exceed that amount, the pool of opportunities would be small. I would also guess that you couldn’t lure a player from Europe for such a small stipend, given the tax free contracts over there, so that option is out as well.
Anderson could have more value as an expiring contract, who CAN be packaged with other assets to offer salary cap relief. Colangelo essentially took on 1.8 million that he didn’t have to, which doesn’t make sense unless Anderson is trade fodder, has a role on the team, or a bit of both.
Just FYI: your guess is right, no packaging of TPE with anything (other TPE, players), but it can be broken up. Also, it was a 2.5M TPE, to be able to absorb Andersen’s 2.5M contract.
by dhackett1565 on Oct 14, 2010 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
its just funny but also good that it seems like theres a divide in people here who half hate bargs while the other half defend him…i like the article and yet while this is a TEAM we are suppose to be talking about it still ends up being mostly about bargs. Now i am a bargs fan and one that still thinks he can turn it around for a few reasons..1. its only pre-season they havent even called any plays from the bench they are just free lancing which explians last night. the offence looked totally out of sync. too much 1 on 1 hell even the bulls announcers were saying bargs is the best player on the team and they aint giving him the ball enough, hes your best player give him the ball, 2. hes going to see double teams now hes never been use to that its gonna take time to get use to it if other players step up and become a threat than this will make it easlier for him, and 3rd pateince…as fans we tend not to have patence and its understandable..im with mas11, pnutz, DS, etc…when it looks like hes dogging hell ill call him out, but hes just to talented to play bad hes just got to get comforable in his new role and hopefully he’ll develope into the player we all hope he can be
Here’s my problem with the “he has to adjust to a new role” line of argument: Triano himself has sited that he hasn’t been working with any urgency, doing things quickly and even questioned if he was in shape for camp. If Bargnani had any balls he would have shown up to camp shouting “This is my year – get the f&*k out of my way!!” Instead, he showed up out of shape and has been dogging it (Triano’s opinion not mine).
Fair enough but bargs personality isn’t like dat..get the f@*k out my way this is my team..to think he would change that way is crazy. Bosh people were saying was the face of the francise but he
by sherwin316 on Oct 13, 2010 6:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough but bargs personality isn’t like dat..get the f@*k out my way this is my team..to think he would change that way is crazy. Bosh people were saying was the face of the francise but he isn’t like that eithef so for bargs to be like that I don’t see that happening and I don’t see how he could be out of shape when he played all summer for his national team if anything he could be playing tired I think that was more jay just sending a shot over to bargs to see if he gets the message.
by sherwin316 on Oct 13, 2010 6:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
if demar can average more than 15 points a game and bargs can average 20+ points I will consider this season a success
by raptors_run_the_show on Oct 14, 2010 12:07 AM EDT reply actions
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