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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Raptors HQ talks to the Original Raptorblogger, Scott Carefoot

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What?? - Raptorblog and RaptorsHQ in the same blog post?  Yep, like Jay-Z and Nas on the same track it was long overdue...

Star-divide

This week has been "media week" here at the HQ.

We kicked things off Monday with the launch of our Facebook page, we followed that up over the next two days with exclusive video, insight and commentary from the Raptors' own "Media Day," and yesterday we spoke to one of the traditional media, Toronto Sun journalist Ryan Wolstat, regarding the off-season and upcoming year in Raptor-land.

Today we switch gears a bit and look at the evolution of sports media, specifically basketball media in Canada, and who better to talk to about this topic than Scott Carefoot.

As most of you know, Scott launched the very first Raptors' blog back in 2002, but has not only been discussing the team since then, he's also been at the forefront of the online basketball revolution, first via his blog, and now via The Score's digital department.

Over the past few weeks, he shared his insight on the industry with me, and among other things, we discussed the changes it's undergone since he first put finger to keyboard back in ‘02...

 

RaptorsHQ: So first question, a fairly obvious one.  Can you give us some of the background on Raptorblog and its creation etc?  What prompted you to start it, what sort of response did you get upon its arrival on the scene, and what was the media environment like at that time?

Scott Carefoot:  My motivation for starting RaptorBlog in 2002 came from a combination of factors. First and foremost, I thought it would be a great way to combine three of my passions: writing, sports and the Internet. Beyond that, I egotistically thought I could provide a level of insight, analysis and humour that I found lacking in mainstream Raptors coverage at the time. It's worth noting that I was unemployed and seriously depressed about my career path at that time, so it was also a form of therapy I took up to help me feel like I had something worthwhile to contribute to the world.

Heady stuff for a Toronto Raptors blog, I know. But this was three years after I earned my Journalism degree from Ryerson University so I really needed to find something to do that actually used my so-called skills. In terms of the response, people who found my site seemed to appreciate my "different take" for the most part. And the fact that I spent many years at the top of the Google rankings for "Toronto Raptors blog" (I've since been bumped down quite a few notches) certainly helped me to grow my audience in the formative years.

In terms of the response from the Raptors and the mainstream media, that's difficult to quantify. In the early 2000s, mainstream media seemed to want to pretend that blogs were irrelevant and didn't deserve anyone's attention. One particularly notable Raptors reporter has never publicly acknowledged that he's ever read my stuff and once responded to a reader question about me by writing that he wouldn't know me if he ran me over with his truck.

Now, of course, most (if not all) of the Raptors beat reporters have their own blogs. I've never particularly cared what the Raptors or their established reporters thought about me or my work, but I'm not too modest to point out that Michael Grange - who I've always respected as the most knowledgeable and readable Raptors writer in the biz - has never been shy in giving credit where it's due to me or any other bloggers out there doing good work. The media people who get it (like Grange) know that there's no point in pretending that blogs like yours and mine aren't part of the mainstream discussion anymore.

RHQ:  It's interesting to hear about your motivation for starting up the site, we had similar experiences on our side, especially in terms of our displeasure with the way "mainstream media" covered the team.  In the almost nine years now since you started the site, would you say you've seen progress in this capacity, or in your opinion is the team coverage void now simply being filled by the huge online Raptors' fan presence via blogs etc?

SC:  I think that Raptors' coverage has significantly improved overall since I launched RaptorBlog, both in terms of what we get from traditional media and the tremendous contributions from the Raptors blogosphere. In particular, I'm a big fan of how so many bloggers are using advanced statistical analysis to fuel conversation. It's clear that Raptors fans who read the various dedicated blogs out there are a lot more informed than they used to be, in that they don't take for granted that Player X is good just because he averages a certain number of points, rebounds or whatever per game. In much the same way an educated baseball fan understands the pointlessness of using RBIs and pitcher wins to measure the value of a player, there are many more educated Raptors fans who don't simply accept the Pablum fed to them by media outlets who feel they need to pander to a lowest common denominator. The great thing about blogs like ours is that we don't have to pander - we can assume that our readers will be sophisticated enough to understand what we're explaining to them and they're more informed as a result.

RHQ:  Keeping on the whole "changing media" theme, I remember at one point a few  years ago you wrote a post about press access, specifically referencing a Sports Guy piece along a similar vein; the idea was that in this day and age, you just didn't need press access any more to get a good  idea of what really goes on with a team.  Do you still feel this is the case, and if so, how did you react to Eric Smith's comments earlier this summer essentially saying that "if you didn't have press accreditation from a team, your work had to be taken with a grain of salt?"

SC:  The established sports media pundits have a vested interest in trying to make us believe that they have specialized knowledge because of their access to the teams. But what do they do with that knowledge? When's the last time a Raptors reporter broke a big story that we wouldn't have found out about almost immediately afterward? I did some beat reporting when I was a co-op student in the Toronto Sun sports department in 1999, so I speak from experience when I say that beat reporters are, for the most part, stenographers with a deadline. They provide a valuable service, but even when they are acquiring information that would be of value to the readers, they usually can't divulge it because of the risk of losing that access. It's a paradox that they have to be aware of but certainly aren't willing to admit to.

I've got a TV sports package that allows me to watch every NBA game that isn't on Sportsnet One, I have Internet access and a sixth-degree black belt in Google-Fu, and I now work at a sports network where people are actually in contact with the team on a regular basis. I have all the information I need to effectively analyze and write about the Raptors. I'm not sure where you guys stood on this team before last season, but I predicted that Turkoglu would be a bust, that Amir Johnson would be a pleasant surprise, and that the Raptors would battle for the eighth seed in the East. Did I simply get lucky? Will I be lucky again if my prediction comes true that the Raptors will struggle to win 30 games next season?

I don't need to go to Raptors practices personally or be fed misinformation by a General Manager who has to lie to reporters as a fundamental necessity of his job. (I'm not singling out Colangelo here, I've long stated that GMs are "professional liars" and anyone who takes most of what they say at face value is a fool.) If anything, I've witnessed how some reporters are more likely to be tainted by the access they have and I find that they are often less likely to be objective about their subjects. In November 2008, I recall that Doug Smith insisted to his readers that, based on his information, Sam Mitchell's job was safe and he wouldn't be fired anytime soon. On December 1, I predicted that within the next month, the Raptors would either fire Mitchell, make a trade, or possibly both: http://raptorblog.com/081201a.php . Mitchell was fired two days later and Doug's reaction to being called out about it is an all-time classic: http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/2008/12/of-course-its-all-about-sam-and-therell-be-more.html

So who, exactly, do we need to take with a grain of salt? Shouldn't sportswriters be judged on their writing skill, their apparent knowledge of the sport and their objectivity rather than whether or not they've ever had a beer with the coach? I like to let the readers decide that regardless of what one of the Smiths thinks.

RHQ:  Don't even get me started on Hedo.  As our readers know, I've hated "the Ottoman" since his time in Orlando and along with Kelly Dwyer, who was possibly even more vocal than I on this subject, bemoaned Turk's possible arrival in Toronto, going so far as to say that the team was better off keeping Delfino.  To that end, I wholeheartedly agree with your take on the press access situation.  And I've always found the paradox you note regarding the ability to divulge "insider info to the public," quite comical.  It's a bit akin to telling your friend that you know his girl is cheating on him because...well...you just know. 

So next question.  Because of the way media is evolving, do you see mainstream media increasingly becoming "buddy-buddy" with teams and their ownerships resulting in a lack of truly investigative journalism?  MLSE is a perfect example of this as you get the feeling that a Doug Smith is loathe to criticize the one team he covers for fear of reprisal, one that could not only impact his access but other Star columnists access to clubs like the Leafs and TFC.  As an example of this "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," I can't imagine this happening 10 years ago, or in many other media markets in fact:

http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/2009/11/congratulations-doug-10-million-page-views.html

Do you see blogs then filling in this niche and perhaps becoming actually more "authentic" then in their coverage than the old guard of mainstream journalists?  I think Adrian Wojnarowski is a perfect example of this - hard-hitting, sometimes quite controversial, investigative work, and yet housed on a search engine portal.

SC:  This is a tough question for me to answer because I can't speak for the motivations of most of the Raptors reporters in this town. For example, Holly MacKenzie almost never has anything negative to say about a player -- but that's not because she's afraid of losing access, that's just how she is. At The Star, Doug Smith and Dave Feschuk seem to play a kind of good cop/bad cop routine with their Raptors coverage. Whatever you think of it, it works because they get a lot of readers.

Wojnarowski is definitely one of the must-read NBA writers out there, both because he obviously has great sources but also because he's not afraid to rip players, coaches, whoever. His LeBron "Decision" coverage was absolutely stellar, and it cracked me up how Knicks fans wanted to string him up by his nuts until LeBron chose Miami, and then they were suddenly all on his side. Good times.

RHQ:  Looking at how your career has taken shape, can you talk to us a bit about your transition to The Score, as well as the strategy behind the network's basketball coverage, specifically the blog network and the acquisition of TBJ?  Where do you envision the Score fitting in in Canada's basketball media landscape?

SC:  I wanted to work for The Score for a long time and when I had an opportunity to meet with the head of The Score's digital department in 2008, I used that opportunity to try to convince him that I could help The Score advance their online strategy. They apparently bought the bill of goods I was selling because they hired me and my two years with The Score have easily been the most gratifying two years of my career.

The Score's Sports Federation (our blog network) http://blogs.thescore.com/sports-federation/ is technically why they hired me, but my role has evolved quite a big since then. You guys are part of a leading blog network yourself so you know the benefits (more traffic + sweet cash) already. I personally derive a lot of satisfaction out of helping promote our bloggers' work and enabling them to earn some ad revenue on top of it.

The Basketball Jones are fantastic, as anyone who follows them would know. I was a fan of theirs long before The Score hired me, and immediately after I started working for The Score, I started harassing my boss that he needed to hire TBJ because they were an obvious fit for what we were trying to accomplish both in terms of our basketball coverage as well as our progressive online strategy. I don't doubt that TBJ would have ended up with The Score regardless of my involvement, but it was still the most satisfying day of my employment at The Score when I learned that we hired the whole crew. I encourage everyone to put http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj in their bookmarks because we've got big things planned for this season and I insist that it will be the best NBA blog around once we get ramped up later this month.

As for The Score's general NBA coverage going into this season, I've been instructed not to get ahead of the press release we're going to send out shortly. But I will invite your readers to ask themselves if The Score would send out a press release if we didn't have something we were happy to announce on the subject. We're committed to being Canada's home for hoops, and what we'll have to offer on all our platforms this season will make that clearer than ever.

RHQ:  One follow up one on this - can you talk to us a bit more about how TBJ fits into The Score's online strategy regarding basketball?

SC:  The guys behind The Basketball Jones are smart, funny, and they love basketball. It should be pretty obvious why they're a great fit at The Score. It's extremely cool that I get to work with them and I'm seriously pumped about what we have in store for NBA fans this coming season. If what I've been led to believe is true, they're going to add a pretty big name to their crew later this month. Stay tuned...

RHQ:  We've talked about media a lot so far in this Q and A, specifically relating to basketball, but let's talk about the subject of Raptorblog, the Raptors themselves.  How do you think the team will do this year, and in your opinion is there any reason for optimism from the fan base over the next few seasons?

SC:  As I mentioned in an earlier answer, I think the ceiling for the 2010-11 Raptors is 30 wins. I haven't seen any Vegas over-under lines on wins for the upcoming season yet, but I'll be shocked if the Raptors line isn't in the high-20s. Aside from Bosh leaving, the East will be much tougher this season now that Boozer and Stoudemire have joined the conference.

I don't believe the Raptors have a top-15 player at any of their starting positions, so it's not realistic to expect this team to compete this season. Raptors fans should set their expectations accordingly and hope that the team is able to land a potential superstar in the next draft. They're going to need a significant talent upgrade if they're  going to crack the 50-win mark within the next few seasons.

RHQ:  Finally then, and to that end, how do you view the job Bryan Colangelo has done?  This was someone who the past few seasons had promised fairly significant results on the court, only to have middling squads at best...not to mention the whole Bosh fiasco...

SC:  In 2006, Bryan Colangelo took over a team with cap space, a young All-Star in Chris Bosh, and a first overall draft pick. Four seasons into the Colangelo Era, the Raptors have yet to win a playoff round and that drought is virtually certain to extend to five years after this season. If he was going to be honest, I think Colangelo himself would have to admit that his results have been very disappointing so far. Having said that, I still think he's a savvy basketball mind and a great leader, and I'm willing to give him a chance to right the ship. People who think he should be fired never seem to be able to offer up a realistic replacement GM that would be a definite improvement.

RHQ:  That's my quandary too.  I've argued in the past that the point the team is currently at is one that Rob Babcock could have gotten them to, and I think if  you were to look at the job BC has done like any other in corporate society with targets etc, he would have been canned.  But...I've yet to realistically name one sure-fire superior option who is available.  

In any event, I think it's safe to say that the next few years of Raptors' basketball could be a struggle for fans so we'll all need a big dose of TBJ coverage!

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Great piece Franchise – I loved reading this interview as a former blogger myself.

In 2000 (as you know Franchise) myself and 2 friends started Fan.ca as a sports blog network in Canada and people thought we were crazy. We tried very hard to get press access to events and people would actually laugh us out of the room – including investors :(. Access was limited and all we could write were opinion pieces based on observation or actual game experience. We made it one of our primary goals tot get Media Access credentials. I think the Toronto Rock were the first sports team to allow us in – it was awesome.

Alas it was a bit early for the mainstream and we’ve all moved on – but it is awesome to see sites like yours and Scott’s really take their rightful place in the sports media industry. Scotts blog was always the de facto leader in the industry and he has contributed probably more than he thinks to bringing blogging to the forefront of sports coverage in Canada. Congrats to both of you.

Even though I’ve divorced the Raptors and gone back to my long lost Jazz – I continue to read your blog because it’s better than the mainstream stuff.

by utes on Oct 1, 2010 8:51 AM EDT reply actions  

It’s funny how important “timing” is in so many things. Fan.ca was the original SB Nation in essence, the rest of the media world just wasn’t ready for it.

However from it came our site, and for that we’re eternally grateful to Utes for providing us with our first “home.”

PS – Jazz are going to be interesting this year with Big Al…still not sure why BC couldn’t have made a play for him…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 1, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

hey franchise, thnx for followinhg my blog

by Jeffrey Thompson on Oct 1, 2010 9:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Jay-Z ? Nas ?

To quote Bowie, I’m still at home with my Beatles and my Stones.
Your bad taste in music aside(I kid, I kid) what a great opportunity to express my thanks to both the boys at HQ, and the original, Scott Caerefoot. If I recall, I think I found the HQ through Raptorblog.com.
Two success stories which will help spawn more.

And since I’ve got your undivided attention, pay attention!
Lets try to keep it positive this season. Past is the past and what we are now moving forward. Our boys will be giving their all each and every night.
Look at this year as a win/ win situation. Lets say the pundits are right and we bottom out this season, we’ve got a top five pick and a new coach. Barring disaster, a few of the young guys should progress. Good for the future.
Or we overachieve. Triano gets creditted(are we all not hoping he succeeds). Demar shows he belongs(#1 key to us overachieving) Amir shut the fools up who criticize his deal and Bargnani, without Bosh around, finally takes his head out of his ass. Oh yeah, and probably a first round exit, againt the evil Troika of Shame(shout out to RR). But thats OK, we show promise.

Definately feeling glass half full this morning, a Friday off with kids in school.

by Tinmann on Oct 1, 2010 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

Positivity will be back in effect this year for sure and here’s why.

When we started in 2005, we were overwhelmingly positive despite the team’s on-court play, mostly because we realistically knew what type of product to expect. None of us at the HQ at that time expected a 40 win team so every Mike James’ 3 that got an extra W resulted in a big “fist-pump post.”

However that didn’t mean we weren’t critical of individuals. We rolled out the 6-6-6 system for Hoffa (a successful game by Araujo for us meant averaging 6 points and 6 boards before getting his sixth foul), and dug into several other players who weren’t cutting it.

We’ll do the same this year, in particular with players like Bargnani and DeRozan who are expected to lead the charge.

But do we expect even 35 wins? Nope – in fact I think my 30 win guess is one of the more “rose-coloured” in Raptorland right now ha ha. And so the site has gone full circle, and again this season I’m guessing we’ll be focusing on the positives, no matter how small they may be.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 1, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

No need to be positive just to sooth the emotions of an abused fan base. We are adults (mostly) and trending towards becoming a more sophisticated fan base. It’s great to temper expectations and subsequently seize on any "existential wins" (i.e. player development etc.) even if the team doesn’t win on the court. However, I would hope you wouldn’t pander to fans who don’t want to face reality. I respect the HQ team’s writing for your analysis, integrity and critical eye. If I was looking for writing pandering to the lowest common denominator and irrational positivity, I’d read Doug Smith’s Blog.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, there will be no catering here…and from the post above, you probably know how much many of us in the Raptors blogosphere respect Mr. Smith’s writing ha ha.

Really, it’s simply a matter of expectations. I was so negative regarding last year’s team, and even the previous year’s incarnation, because I knew it wasn’t going to work, and was trying to fight through the various fan and media biases to get my point across.

This year, no one expects anything from the team, and I’m actually wondering if the bar might be set a bit TOO low.

We’ll see, but either way we’ll always be calling it like we see it.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 1, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice read, good to see some cross-mojination of two of the best…

by axl t on Oct 1, 2010 10:18 AM EDT reply actions  

New TBJ member

Trey Kirby? I think I heard he was leaving Ball Don’t Lie – and it seems every Ball Don’t Lie contributor eventually ends up at TBJ.

Oh, by the way, fantastic article.

I look at BC’s reign this way. He’s been swinging for the fences, and hasn’t really hit a homer yet. However, with BC, I always felt that edge-of-your-seat anticipation that big hitters like Barry Bonds would cause when they step to the plate. Something good might have come from any of his moves (with the exception of Hedo… talk about swinging at a wild pitch). With Babcock, you knew – it was gonna be a strikeout or at best an infield single (or in the case of the VC trade, hitting into a triple-play). Now that BC’s batting for average (we hope), results should start to show. I honestly would rather BC over pretty much anyone else out there.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Yep – Kirby is on his way to TBJ as well. When we started this Q and A a few weeks ago, I wanted to hint at that but we couldn’t discuss in this interview until it became official. Seems like it did as of this morning so good timing.

I like the GM comparison too. We’ve often talked in the past about BC loving the “home-run ball” but maybe now he’ll try to mix a bit of the Babcock with his current style.

That being said, the Dampier move seems like another home run attempt…let the kids play.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Oct 1, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

The problem with BC is that his basketball philosophy is inherently fundamentally flawed. He values certain skill sets over others and is tied to certain decisions he has made here that have tainted his ability to be objective going forward. That’s my problem with the "you can’t fire BC because you have no obvious successor in the pipeline" argument. My response to that is because of BC’s philosophical approach and the fact that he is tied to past decisions, he CAN’T be successful going forward. Any capable GM, with a more conventional NBA basketball philosophy is a good replacement. There are several past GM’s and up and coming assistants I believe would be a better option for the Raps going forward than escalating this commitment to Colangelo. My fear is that those who support continuing with Colangelo are still of the opinion that Colangelo is a Rock-Star executive that the poor little Toronto Franchise was able to steal away from the Phoenix suns and therefore we need to replace him with a big name. I for one feel that Colangelo’s cache has less currency than the North Korean Won at this point and therefore would have no problem replacing him with a up-and-coming Assistant GM committed to begin a rebuild in earnest.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes! Yes!

What sucess did he have? I’m pretty sure a monkey could have created a winning team if he had Steve Freaking Nash. Last time I checked the Suns are still a perennial playoff team without the Lego Master. Is it a coincedence? Or maybe Nash had more to do with the sucess.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

My take is similar.

The problem is that BC is a flawed evaluator, not that he has been going out of his element in trying to do too much.

He actually prefers the European style and skillset over the traditional North American one.

His past success in building the Suns doesn’t matter. Dumars built an arguably more successful team with a ring but noone wants him to be our GM.

by bigweeze on Oct 4, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ya, the one main difference with Dumars is his team actually WON a ring, built on defense and toughness no less. I would argue that a Pheonix style NBA team can NEVER win a championship as you can’t win without defense and rebounding.

by MAS11 on Oct 4, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno… The Damp move is fairly safe – if it’s a one-year deal. A trade for Diaw, as is rumoured, could fall under HR swing…

I think BC is still obsessed with his belief that Bargs is a 4, and has been held back by Bosh. So he wants a true C to play beside him for a year, so we can finally know one way or the other. Personally, I think Bargs is better suited to the 5, if he has a hustle 4 beside him (aka Johnson or Davis). Plus, Damp could be a decent trade chip come deadline time, especially if he shows well in his time as a Raptor.

As for Diaw, I would only trade Jose for him, and then only if a prospect or pick is coming back too.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

This point illustrates my point above perfectly. If you are correct, BC may be making moves based on finding the best fit for Bargnani (when he should be rebuilding). Bargnani is NOT a player you should be making moves around. He is NOT that level of player. You cannot win a championship with Bargnani as your centre peice. But BC has a vested interest in his success, so he will make decisions that may ultimately damage the franchise to find a comfort level for Bargnani… This is an example of why he should be removed. His objectivity is questionable.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree

How can you not? Think about the drafting of AB, we were “supposed” to be building a team around Bosh, yet he drafts a soft shooting centre that doesn’t rebound. How does that fit next to a power forward who plays a finesse game? He fired a good coach because he didn’t want to give Bargnani minutes. It’s all BS.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, considering Bosh has become one of the league leaders in rebounding, he would be an ideal candidate to place a weak-rebounding centre beside, would he not? And Bosh works his offense best in iso’s and drives for fouls, so having Bargs out at the 3-point line is really a great place for him. Maybe he wasn’t the best fit in reality, but on paper, he actually makes a lot of sense, tactically.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having a shooting guard or a point guard behind the 3 point makes sense tactically. Having your center there never makes sense. Especially when your power forward is a finesse type player. Your twisting reality to suit your argument. He also drafted Bargs with the hope that he would be a scorer, which also doesn’t make sense when your number 1 option is a power forward.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Bosh’s strength offensively is to drive past players, how does having the defending C in the paint help?

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because the defending C is going to be there anyway. They don’t follow Bargs to the three point line, they switch. So now you have a defending C that doesn’t have to guard anyone else, which is essentially a double team on Bosh. And I never understood what the benefit of having someone who is 7’ tall standing as far away from the basket as possible. If Bargs was down low Bosh could operate away from the basket knowing that he has an offensive rebounder incase he misses, or some under the basket with good position to defer to if the double team was too strong.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they switch, and the C is still there, someone is open. That’s how the Magic operate, and the Raps offense was similar (except Bosh was high post instead of low post).

Yeah, that’s a great idea. Put Bargs under the basket to get REBOUNDS while Bosh jacks up jump shot after jump shot. His strength is his drive, which is when the double would come, so he wouldn’t have an easy time finding Bargs in the paint.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok I’m not going to argue anymore. Your making it seem as if you cannot drive to the basket unless there is no one in paint. I stand by my point that Bosh would work much better with a true C, instead of a small forward wannabe eating up the C position on the court.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like for example Jermaine O’Neal. That Bosh-O’Neal combination didn’t impress me, but maybe you saw something that I didn’t.

by DW19 on Oct 1, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I knew you would bring that up, but I dont think JO did very well in any season’s after he left the raps. Did the raps finish with a worse record last season, or the season with JO?

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Normally I would agree with but fundamentally I am not sure who Bosh would play best next to. I think Bosh’s game actually makes it difficult to start him next to most players unless they are essentially backups who never expect to see the ball (Rasho?). AB was not my choice for our draft pick but I always understood the rationale of drafting him even if I didn’t necessarily agree with it.

by McGateway on Oct 2, 2010 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bish is a plaier difficult to play with

as he needs to post down low to be effectin on O while not being either big or skilled enough to Yet defend on Cs. Funny Enoough somebody like Andrea was posibly his best match, providing Andrea was a good defence anchor, something he is not.
JO was sent to Miami because he was not compatible with #4, he plaid well with AB.
I apreciate I am repiting myself but #4 while being a good player on his own, was not a player to build around and the Raptors would have been way better trading him. Whether you liked him or not, you could have, right now, a team with Bynum + Marion + AB as front court. This is BC sin and legacy…..

by renato on Oct 2, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you knew that someone was going to bring up the JO situation, why would you bother getting into this debate? JO was injury prone as a Raptor, but when he was on the floor he knew where he needed to be on the court. Bosh didn’t play well with JO because JO played the position of a true center. Mind you, you kind of lost me after the “we fired a GOOD coach” part…yikes!

by Assistant GM on Oct 2, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Colangelo hopes that Bargnani is a better player than he’s shown (as we all do, am I right?), then it makes perfect sense to try to give him a shot to show that if he feels he is better suited to the PF spot. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

Oh, and are you suggesting that bringing in Dampier on a 1-year minimum salary contract is ‘building around’ Bargnani? Is that so high a cost to find a good fit for one of the key players on the team?

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes the cost is too high

Not because of Dampier’s contract number or length, but because we will loose the oportunity to give Ed Davis and Alabi minutes, we will also probably have to wave Dorsey. So we are trading off oportunities for the three aforementioned forwards. Stop the foolishness of pandering to Bargnani and get on with the rebuilding and talent evaluation process.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Johnson won’t play over 30 minutes regardless. Davis may get a few less minutes, and this is a concern, but he will be playing on a team with a veteran big man, and will get just as much burn in practice. And if Davis shows enough, he’ll earn the minutes. Factor in any injuries, and there will be loads of time for Davis.

There’s no rush with Davis – he is on a rookie contract that the Raps can hold onto for 4 years with no hitch. The learning process is about more than just being on the floor – if he can be involved in tighter games, or experience more wins, or just pick up some good habits from a veteran big man, then the practically-zero-cost move will have paid off.

Plus, I fully expect that if the Raps are out of the playoff hunt, BC will look to trade Damp and the expirings at the deadline – freeing up minutes for the last 1/4 of the year.

Oh, and Dorsey? You ridicule BC for making personnel decisions based on Bargnani, but want to avoid this move for Dorsey’s sake? Good golly.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and I thought the Raps were expected to send Alabi to the D-league for a chunk of the season, so that’s not really relevant.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally wrong. The ONLY way to develop players is playing time and experience. Davis should get every minute possible when he’s healthy. To gain experience and/or to determine what value this kid actually has. Dorsey has more upside than Dampier who is 34 and has NO upside. The reports coming out of camp are that Dorsey has been quite impressive so far. And your comment regarding not signing Dampier for Dorsey’s sake are disingenuous and ridiculous. Clearly, I meant that the decision to bring in Dampier was wrong because of the COLLECTIVE opportunity costs for all three players. This was pretty clear.

Finally, If this was a sincere effort at rebuilding and not "reputation protecting", Alabi would not go to the D-league and would get Dampier’s minutes at centre along with Bargnani and the already completely irrelevant Anderson. So Alabi is ABSOLUTELY relevant. So again, why impede the rebuild process to cater to Bargnani? What is truly in the best interest of the Franchise (not one player, or one season) long-term?!?! Not sure how you can’t see this…

And how you can’t see that signing Dampier and moving Bargnani to the four doesn’t affect Johnson’s (or any of the other forward’s) minutes is staggering. There are only so many minutes. It’s simple math….

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. So players can’t develop in practice. Or working out over the summer. Really? Last time I expect improvement over the year before when a player returns from a summer working out. Well, since Dorsey is so far down the list (behind Bargs, Amir, Davis and Alabi) of bigs, and he’ll never see the floor, and will get all his growth through practice, we might as well let him go huh?

And how are you so sure that Alabi getting 10 minutes or so backing up Bargs would be the best situation for him? 10 minutes, getting outmatched most nights, getting yanked because he fouls too quickly… Or! He could go to the D-league, play 30 minutes a night, develop some skills and confidence, and eventually move up when he is ready/when his body has developed a little. Minor leagues in hockey and baseball have been proven effective over and over again. Why would basketball be so drastically different?

Alright, time for some simple math. Let’s say Damp plays 23 minutes (his last 2 years’ MPG). Bargs plays 35. Amir plays 25 (his career high is 18, so this might even be a stretch).

Two big spots * 48 minutes = 96 minutes per game. Take away the 23, 35, 25, that leaves 13 minutes for Davis. How many minutes does he need? Factor in injuries and Damp probably being moved at the deadline, and the benefits of playing on a team with at least a winning attitude, if not actual results, and I say he develops plenty.

by dhackett1565 on Oct 1, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

And again...

I’ll simplify it for you: How is the franchise better served? By giving the 23 minutes you allocated to Dampier above to Alabi and Davis or to a rental player who’s sticking around for one year (a player that no one else, even cap stretched Miami that NEEDS a centre really wanted)? And yes, Davis and Alabi are way better served gaining experience playing NBA minutes against NBA players than simply through practice alone and/or against D League stiffs. I don’t thin that point is debateable. Seems pretty simple to me…

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

“My argument is that I will ignore your argument and restate my thesis until you give up due to boredom and agree with me.”

Personally, I don’t care if the Raptors sign Dampier or not, but I think there are enough benefits either way(playing time for youngsters vs. mentorship and the youngsters having to actually earn their minutes) that it is a debatable point, not something totally clear cut as you seem to be saying.

by DW19 on Oct 1, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I felt it necessary to restate my point as the arguments presented didn’t address my previous comments. Specifically, the question of what is better for the franchise in the long run, Damp eating minutes needlessly, or giving the minutes to the team’s youth to gain experience.

Your point of mentorship and the youngster’s earning their minutes adderss this point so bravo. What I would say to that is if this team was signing an over the hill Tim Duncan or someone of Charles Oakley’s ilk, who was a proven vet with the demonstrated ability to impart knowledge and mentor, you may have an argument. But it’s not. We’re talking about Eric F’n Dampier. I guy who has been chastised by Dallas fans, media and coaches for the last half decade as being a disapointment, not living up to his contract, having bad hands, lacking defensive/offensive awareness etc.. If Dampier is the guy you are looking to be a mentor, I would question your judgement moreso than if you were simply signing him to coddle Bargnani.

Look, if this team was a playoff team, and the strategy was to bring in Damp to eat up minutes against Howard and Boston’s front court in the play-offs, I could understand that rationale. But this team is NOT a play off team and we just drafted two young front court players who would benefit from getting exposure and experience. There is no better development aid than playing time.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those are all reasonable arguments. I am not totally convinced by the last one because I think each player needs to be treated individually. Some players respond well to being thrown into the fire while others are traumatized by taking on too much too soon, lose their confidence and actually regress.

I don’t care one way or the other if the team brings in Dampier. Either scenario could work or not work. The Raptors could bring in Dampier, play him for half a year while Davis heals and adjusts to the NBA. and Alabi gets his bearing then trade Dampier to a contender for a draft pick around the trade deadline. No harm done to the youngsters development and the team has essentially bought a pick. Alternatively, they could pass on signing Dampier and give extra minutes to Johnson and Evans while Alabi and Davis heal and get up to speed. Either way I wouldn’t worry too much.

by DW19 on Oct 4, 2010 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s rare but I actually agree with hackett on this one… I am of the mindset that you should be fielding the best possible team at any given time. If the younger players aren’t earning their minutes, then they shouldn’t play. It also makes more sense for younger players to play with older vets to learn from. Case in point Bargnani, how did he turn out?

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regarding your point: “If the younger players aren’t earning their minutes, then they shouldn’t play.”

I would totally agree with you if this team either had a chance to be successful or had legit starters in front of them. They don’t. Bringing in Damp for one season doesn’t justify retarding the development process in my opinion.

Regarding your Bargnani point… Bargnani played with Rasho, who if nothing was a solid vet that at least understood the basic tenants of positional defense, and from all acounts was a solid influence in the locker room – and Bargnani learned nothing. I still maintane that playing time (as long as their is solid coaching) is the best catalyst for development.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm, I’d agree up to a certain point. Thing is, we saw quite a difference when Bargnani took time with Jermaine O’Neal and developed a defense. I credit a lot of Bargnani’s (limited) defensive abilities to O’Neal who really gave Bargs a better understanding about playing like a big.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 1, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you believe Dampier is a candidate to bring Bargnani to the next level???

by MAS11 on Oct 2, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, but when we are talking about whether Rasho taught Bargnani anything, I just think he was the wrong teacher for Bargs. Not that Rasho’s a bad player, but just that Rasho was not going to be of the same mindset as Jermaine O’Neal.

As for who should play next to Bargs, I’m not a fan of Dampier. What I want are guys that can rebound and who can move. If I’m the Raptors, I just want to exploit an ability for speed and athleticism because a lot of the players are going to do much better in non-isolation plays, where the ball is moving fast and free.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Oct 3, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also...

Regarding “fielding the best possible team” , frankly I’m not convinced Dampier makes this team markedly better… It does however allow Triangelo to start Bargnani at power forward… which is the objective here, I’m convinced. BTW this will be the third different forward position we’ve tried to shove Bargnani into on the starting line up. At some point everyone will come to the realization that Bargnani is what he is – a servicable to good utility forward off the bench.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've got to agree with MAS11 on this one

This whole Dampier signing thing smacks of BC building around Bargnani, which gives me the shivers. Like I said before, Bargs can be a good complimentary piece, but he is not a center piece. Most people seemed to agree that playing Amir next to Bargs worked pretty well for us last season. I don’t see any reason why we don’t start those two and have Davis and Alibi “earn” minutes behind them. Let the kids play.

by Posterized on Oct 1, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some great points all around! The one thing Posterized is that BC almost has to attempt to see if Bargnani can be a centrepiece with Bosh gone. He has never been given that opprotunity before. I think it would actually be beneficial for the Raptors in the long run to see if Bargs is what BC thinks he is. If not, well then no more excuses. By not putting Bargs in this position, BC will be able to spin it next season to suggest that they didn’t properly build towards Bargs as a centerpiece and it keeps buying him more time. In the end, Dampier won’t really harm the franchise or the young bigs development. Throwing them out to the wolves with no backup plan may actually hinder their growth. Since they would then be the only option. If anything it buys them a year of time!

by Assistant GM on Oct 2, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

and “some” experience.

by Assistant GM on Oct 2, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think BC has been more McGwire than Bonds. He has hit a low percentage swinging for the fences every time he is at the plate. Sometimes hitting a single or double is better in the long run.

by McGateway on Oct 2, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nice Commercial

I read any Raptors blog worth reading and I must admit that each brings its own benefits to the table. I found it a bit bothersome that you singled out Doug Smith when, to be honest, Smith’s blog in effect helps every other blogger because as a mainstream entity it potentially brings in new contributors to your own spaces. I started to enjoy consuming the blog formatted content by way of Smith’s space and subsequently found the HQ. Opinions vary, EVERYONE is wrong sometimes, but the guy has something up EVERY DAY, takes loads of questions from people learning the game, and does offer information on goings on that inform the discussions in this space.
As much as I like Grange’s depth of analysis, finding a Grange update took weeks sometimes.

I didn’t really warm to Carefoot’s style right away because I thought he was trying too hard to be funny at times and the language could be unnecessarily coarse, but I’ve embraced his opinions as a contributor to my overall Raptors appreciation.

The reason I consider the HQ my home base is because of the articles but mostly because of the conversations after the articles. As much as i disagree with Feschukians like MAS11 and McGateway, getting to engage them in smart, passionate discussion adds something to my experience as a fan. Sometimes reading the conversations and not commenting is as enjoyable.

Long story short, keep up the good work but don throw a guy under the bus because he has to take a different approach to his blog for a variety of reasons. If it’s well written Raptors info, it belongs.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Oct 1, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions  

I was wondering if anyone would come to the defence of Smith. I think the thing that people don’t get is that he’s writing to a specific demographic/audience. Namely, the older, more casual, kool-aid drinking fan, inside-the-box thinking, family-friendly, not into analytics, clicked through from the Star home page type.

I can say he doesn’t appeal to me, but I don’t get why so many hardcore raps fans read it and then complain.

by axl t on Oct 1, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Read Doug Smith everyday

Enjoy his work. Respect the old guy.

by Tinmann on Oct 1, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting piece

I think Carefoot is dead on when he says that GMs are professional liars. I think that is true in all sports. It’s not a criticism, it’s just a job requirement given the nature of their job is playing poker in public.
I think he’s playing it a bit both ways though by saying he doesn’t need access to be effective, in part because he has access from the Score. I think this is what sets apart the dailies from most (notice I said “most”) bloggers in that they really have no clue about what really goes on, they’re just fan sites with over-inflated egos. And that’s ok too for what it is, but they shouldn’t hold themselves out to be the moral center of the basketball universe (Hellooooo RaptorsRepublic!)

by JCCanuck on Oct 1, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

lol @ Doug Smith

@ Interloper – I happen to skim through Doug’s blog daily (i think it’s a sick obsession with being frustrated). I don’t find that his blog is well written at, it’s actually all over the place and full of obscure references that often only a small percentage of his readers undestand (references to old singers and tv shows). He also has no problem with replying to comments on his page with very snarky responses (as if he is privy to inside info that no one else has, and that the general public are too dumb to understand). Then when his is wrong you take issue with someone calling him out.

He does have something up everyday, but most of it is dribble and not even Raptors related. I can’t even count the amount of times he has posted blogs dedicated to what city has the best beers, or updates of his son’s peewee softball teams. This site however has something Raptors related up almost everyday.

Disagree completely and I enjoyed Carefoot’s calling him out.

by PNUTZ on Oct 1, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Totally agree on the Doug Smith bashing. Quantity does not equal quality. You could pretty much stick Doug’s mugshot beside that phrase in the cliche dictionary.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 1, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone has their own opinion. Smith is an easy target for the fan sites because he has the highest-profile blog. He does have, I believe, unparallelled access and most of the time is on the right side of things – take the Jermaine O’Neill – Shawn Marion trade for instance.

The last couple of days he’s given clues about what he’s hearing re Diaw. So while it’s convenient to pick and choose, I think his overall record is pretty good. A person’s writing style may not suit everyone – for example I happen to think Carefoot comes across as a dick most of the time , but that’s just my opinion.

by JCCanuck on Oct 1, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not just your opinion

Plenty of people think I’m a dick. I promise you it’s not intentional though.

by Scott Carefoot on Oct 1, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the headsup LOL

Notice I said “comes across as” rather than “is”. Tone is sometimes hard to gauge without the laughtracks.

by JCCanuck on Oct 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blogging ... Scott ... Rhq .. plus more ... and of course Holly.

.
Without some of these Toronto Blogs, I think fans would starve for info. In fact, they might even subscribe to Raptors TV, just to get their fix.

I’ve followed Scott Carefoot for a number of years, and thoroughly enjoyed his perspective, even when I completely disagreed. I was disappointed when his Blog postings slowed down (due I guess to the Score situation). However, now that more seems to be happening on the site, including perspectives from cutie Holly, I’m back on a regular basis.

Kelly Dwyer, who was possibly even more vocal than I on this subject, bemoaned Turk’s possible arrival in Toronto, going so far as to say that the team was better off keeping Delfino.

As I recall, Delfino (+ Ukic) brought us Amir & Sonny – a trade that I would do any day of the week. To me, that was one of BC’s better moments.

For all the criticism that BC gets – some warranted – I like his ability to make things happen. Trading players like Jose, and getting (well … should’ve got) something in return (if it wasn’t for d!ckhead MJ), is why I feel comfortable having Colangelo behind the wheel. I think we dismiss the complexity of being In Canada, sometimes disregarding this reality as having a minimal effect, when facts seem to suggest the Raptors rarely strike gold when it comes to Free agents. I might even go so far as to say a Toronto GM operates with one hand behind his back.

" … If you are correct, BC may be making moves based on finding the best fit for Bargnani (when he should be rebuilding). Bargnani is NOT a player you should be making moves around. He is NOT that level of player." ….. MAS11

I have to disagree with MAS11 here (And I know I’ll get killed for saying such – must be a Bargnani homer). It’s not so much about building around Andrea, as building a team that takes advantage of different strengths. Adding a Noah to the Front Court (11 & 11), along with Amir & Davis, would probably generate one of the top Front Courts in the league. And yeah, Noah would make a lot of Front Courts – top level. Personally, I don’t think Bosh & Noah would’ve made a good fit. They’d be fighting for those rebounds – there’s only so many to go around. Plus Noah strikes me as someone who wouldn’t handle CB’s 10 second Post-ups, very well.
.
Never-the-less, having Andrea, Amir, Davis, and Noah (or a clone type), all for about 25-28 million (including the back-ups to the back-ups) could work just fine. This scenario leaves plenty of Cap room to develop the Wing & Guard positions – positions for which the Raptors have been weak (or disjointed … ala Forderon). Orlando aside, Contending teams have their greatest strength in the Back Court, complimented by a quality Front Court. And for those questioning the likelihood of getting a Noah (or Noah type), there was a time when he was available – the concerns being his attitude & health.
.
I can’t quite figure out why some fans of Andrea haven’t gotten the No. 1 pick out of their head yet. Bargs is not our Franchise player. For what it’s worth, I didn’t feel that way about Bosh either. Had CB resigned (most likely for 20 million per season), our Front Court costs would’ve hovered around 35-38 million, leaving less room for the more vital ingredients I described earlier – the Back Court. Personally, I think too much energy & analysis in the past, has centered on the “in the paint” guys. We focus way too much on Bargnani, when reality is, he’s one of our better players. Maybe that doesn’t say much (for some), but it is what it is.
.
As for WINS, I’ve said this a few times – If we’re below 35/36 wins (barring substantial injuries), it’ll mean some of our “potential” is not really that. My enthusiasm for this team (glass half-full), is wondering who (and how many), will make me stand up and feel good about the Raptors again.
.

by RapthoseLeafs on Oct 1, 2010 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

LOL at:

" I don’t think Bosh & Noah would’ve made a good fit. They’d be fighting for those rebounds – there’s only so many to go around."

Yes, you never want to have two good rebounders in the front court… You want one good one and one terrible one. The last thing you want is your forwards actually fighting for rebounds…Seriously? LOL

by MAS11 on Oct 2, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am with you on this one MAS11. For example, the Noah-Horford combination(two strong rebounders) was a disaster for UFlorida when they were winning back to back NCAA titles. What the heck were they thinking? ;)

by DW19 on Oct 4, 2010 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

“David Robinson you’d better retire. Stop stealing my rebounds.”

- Tim Duncan

by bigweeze on Oct 4, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like RapthoseLeafs, I too enjoyed Scott’s blog but I had to come here because he started working at one of the ISP’s (if I recall correctly) and seemingly abandoned the blog. I know it is difficult to try and have a career and run a blog so I am not criticizing him just pointing out the facts.

As for the Feschukian comment, Feschuk this!

by McGateway on Oct 2, 2010 9:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Holy crossmojonation!

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Oct 3, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

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