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Tip-In, Toronto Raptors' Post-Game Report: Bargs and Bosh - The Perfect Fit?

With a 111 to 103 win over the Miami Heat last night, the Toronto Raptors move into fifth spot in the East, and now look to put some distance between themselves and their competition by grabbing another W tonight in New York...

Star-divide

Duncan and Robinson.

Sampson and Olajuwon.

Bosh and Bargnani?

Ever since the Toronto Raptors selected Andrea Bargnani with the first pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, I worried about the direction of the club.

They already had an offensively minded All-Star big man in Chris Bosh, and despite GM Bryan Colangelo's assurances that the newly acquired "Il Mago," would eventually be a 5 in the league, I remained very skeptical; not only did I not see Andrea as a 5 because of his lack of toughness, defense and rebounding, but I just didn't think he was a great fit next to Chris Bosh, a potential double-double machine, but who also had his own defensive and toughness issues.

After another terrific night by these two in a win over the Heat last night, have I changed my opinion?

Maybe slightly.

While I still think these two aren't the perfect compliments to each other, I couldn't help but gaze in awe at the developments of their respective games last night; for if there was a match to truly showcase this evolution, it was yesterday evening.

Let's start with Andrea, who was absolutely unstoppable offensively.

He was 13 of 19 from the field and essentially scored in every way possible; drives to the hoop, 3-pointers, stop-and-pops...even some nifty back to the basket up-and-under post-work.  Think back even a year ago!  Andrea regularly got called for travelling at least once a game on many of his "go-to" moves, and he didn't look to back players down even when he had a size advantage over them.

That's simply not the case any more.

He still disappears at times, but with each game, for the first time I can see a confidence in him that says "give me the ball, I'll score."

And what about Bosh?

Last year I routinely criticized his lack of leadership on the club, and his tendency to put up hollow numbers; translation - I just didn't think he was worthy of a max deal.

However this year has been an eye-opener.  Yes, the defensive issues still present themselves at times, but he's been about as consistent and dominant a player as there is in the league this year outside of perhaps Lebron, Chris Paul and Kevin Durant.

I mean he's averaging 24 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists and a block on the season!

On top of that, he's done a lot of his key work in crunch time, whether it be timely baskets or big rebounds, and I shudder to think of what this team will be like next year if he's not around.  I think many of us have taken that silky smooth J for granted, and unless you go back and watch footage from a few years ago, it's hard to truly appreciate, like Andrea, how far Chris' game has come.

During last night's game, one of our readers and I got into a discussion about the best PF's in the league; my inital vote being for Bosh, his for Dirk Nowitzki.

It's a tough call as while statistically I think Bosh has had the best season of all the 4's in the league, it would be tough to pass on the likes of Dirk, Duncan and even KG, considering his still dominant defensive abilities.  However there's no question CB4 is right there; perhaps superior on O, inferior on D, but he's there.  Personally, there's not another player I'd rather have offensively in the league at that spot than Bosh.

One-on-one he's just so hard to guard now.  He can take you off the bounce with his quickness, has a dizzying array of spin moves and fakes, can shoot the long-range ball, and isn't afraid to take you to the rack and cram it on your head.

Oh...and if you're considering fouling him, he's almost an 80 per cent free throw shooter.

Add on the fact that he's left-handed, another twist to trying to guard him, and you've got one tough cover, and my vote for a player primed to make his second All-NBA team this season.

So why all the Bosh and Bargs talk in this recap/preview?

Simply put, this team is going to go as far as these two can carry them this season.

While I still don't think the two are a perfect fit at the 4 and 5, Bosh's eagerness to get in the paint and do the dirty work this year has allowed for a better mesh between the two.  Last year there was still far too much finesse from both players, but this year, you can see a lot more grit, and this has translated to wins like last night's.  Both made big plays on the glass down the stretch and Toronto desperately needs this to keep rolling.

Remember those games the past few seasons when time after time, it seemed like Toronto would have a game in hand, only to allow an offensive rebound or two down the stretch which would do them in?  We just haven't seen that very often this year.  Amir Johnson has been a huge help in that capacity (and hopefully Reggie Evans will lend his skillset to the situation as well), but it's been the rebounding improvement of both Bosh and Bargs that has quashed this issue for the most part.

In fact I'm going to set the magic number at 20.

I haven't gone back yet to look at the stats, but I'm guessing Toronto's record is pretty damn good when Andrea and Chris combine to get that many rebounds or more.  Last night Chris did it of course almost by himself, but there have been nights lately when Andrea's gotten his fair share as well.

This brings us to tonight's game against the Knicks.

New York is one of those teams you can't sleep on on any given night because of their offensive firepower, and in particular, this one could be tricky due to the Raptors' back-to-back issues.

So I'm going with one key only here: Bosh and Bargnani.

If these two can play at the level they've been playing at recently, it should be a very tough night for New York, and in particular, I'll be keeping an eye on that magic number 20.  The Knicks' pivot, David Lee, is capable of getting that many rebounds himself, so it's especially important that these two control the glass tonight.

You can talk about pace, turnovers (an early issue against Miami last night), Hedo, and various other factors, but I'm looking at these two to continue playing like alpha dogs 1 and 1 A en route to a win tonight.

Prior to the start of the season Andrea was my biggest X-Factor for this year, and this is proving to be the case.

Offensively he's been delivering with devastating efficiency of late, but it's on the glass and on D that he's starting to make strides, ones that if he continues can only help take Toronto to that elusive "next level."

Should he do that, suddenly it's not out of the question that he and Bosh start something quite special, something akin to the twin tower tag-teams I started this post by discussing.

And should that be the case, I'd never be more happy to be wrong.

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12-6

That is the Raps record when they combine for 20 rebounds. What does it mean? Who knows? (they were 3-4 in these games through October and November, so really as the team has gotten better, all random stats like this will follow)

A good thought, though, and it does bear out in recent months.

by Original Aaron on Jan 28, 2010 9:50 AM EST reply actions  

Love to look at the flip side of things too, and break down the numbers a bit more – might be my weekend project…

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Development

 I would like to focus the development of Marco Belinelli. I do apreciate DD is a player the Raps have made an investment upon to develop him, but isn’t Marco in a similar situation? Albeit being older, he has seen possibly less tIme on the floor in the first two seasons at GS than DD has seen up till now in TO and his talent tops DD in every sense, but for elevation. Isn’t his development worth it an investment too? If so, isn’t is leash way too short?

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

I thought they waited far to long to go to Belinelli last night off the bench. The team was struggling and he didn’t see the floor until there was only 30 seconds left in the 1st quarter. And he ended up being part of the unit that led the comeback because — SURPRISE — he is part of almost all of our top five-man units (go to 82games.com and check it out).

The decision to start Weems in place of DeRozan was a good one initially — he came out with a lot of energy and scoring. But surely Belinelli deserves to get off the bench BEFORE Antoine Wright.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Doug Smith:

They may be shopping Wright to get a cheap backup sg. I am not sure I understand, I thought Wright was already a cheap backup sg, and Marco too. I am not sure you can find sg who can shoot, pass and attack the rim for less than 1.5M U$D (which is what MArko salary is). To say the least I am confused.

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

D-Stance, way too much hate on wright. Last night’s defence on Wade in the 4th Q had me convinced he can be a stopper. Sure, he’s trash offensively, but I like his role on the team and with Devlin calling him a veteran every 2 seconds, it’s easy to forget he’s like 25-26 years old. Wright definitely has positive contributions to this team, regardless of how you choose to look at it. With Andrea’s emergence, it seems like you need someone new to hate on :P

by HDave on Jan 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t need Wright to hate on when we have Turkoglu :P

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Imagine that 53 million was used to ACTUALLY help this team…drool

by HDave on Jan 28, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Franchise and I just had that same conversation about 20 mins ago. Haha.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t get it either – Wright is actually the team’s only true SF outside of Hedo; DeRozan and Weems are too small. I like Wright when he doesn’t try to do too much, and sticks to his role like last night. He’s much more effecient that way.

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

uh? I went back to read the blog on the game

and DS hating on Andrea is in mid season, almost playoff, form.

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Great performance offensively yesterday — there’s no denying that. But he still has a lot of work to do defensively.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

That is a fair statement

Althought I would put the emphasys on the consistency which is somewhat lacking. I have seen very good D by Bargs on good opponents. Actually that makes the guy even more guillable.

On the O side of things, the most interesting thing to notice is that (at least since the game with LA) A has been promoted to the status of primary offenisve weapon with the team game strategy taking full advantage of his mistmatch (hear JT’s interview). I think it is fair to assume Drea has been promoted to option 1a from option 2. If that is the case you will likely see less 44 points nights from CB (but for the odd night) and, likely, more success for the Dinos.

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m getting bored of the Hedo talk (especially at work, and especially with the bandwagoners who see nothing but stat)… it’s not that I completely disagree about his performance, however, as stated else where, his stats are pretty much the same as his career stats. This is only about the money, so why continue to expect blood from an orange?

On that note, I’m sure Orlando would be willing to trade Vince for Hedo straight up. LoL. Could you imagine? Would Raps fans take that deal? VC would kill the chemistry on this team, but it’d be fun to watch – fun as in a horror show kinda way.

by Ustation on Jan 28, 2010 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

“One-on-one he’s just so hard to guard now. He can take you off the bounce with his quickness, has a dizzying array of spin moves and fakes, can shoot the long-range ball, and isn’t afraid to take you to the rack and cram it on your head.

Oh…and if you’re considering fouling him, he’s almost an 80 per cent free throw shooter."

- Though this was said about Bosh, it’s becoming increasingly true about Andrea (wish he’d shoot even more FT’s with his percentage!). I think this, combined with the fact that they’re both starting to bang a little more (read: at all), is making them a nightmare duo. I think we’ll start seeing more matchups like last night where opposing teams just won’t have the skill sets to match up with our bigs. Add to that, like you say, the fact that Andrea’s one-on-one D is getting considerably better…it’s exciting.

They’re not the Fundamental and the Admiral just yet, but opposing bigs must be getting tired and frustrated having to deal with both of them. I can’t think of too many frontcourt combos that have both the size and quickness to deal with them (probably Shaq/Varejao, Bogut/Mbah-a-Moute, Gasol/Bynum, and KG/Perkins are three tougher ones for them, hence the problems we have with those teams usually).

On another note, isn’t it refreshing not to be talking about how badly we got killed on the wings every night now?

by Kballer on Jan 28, 2010 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

Definitely.

Good point about Andrea – if he continues to develop his low post game, he may actually be MORE advanced offensively than Bosh. He’s already better at taking bigs off the bounce from the perimeter, and of course, has the more pure long-range shot. So a bit more work down low and it’s going to be a deadly duo.

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

bah

should read “are THE tougher ones for them”

by Kballer on Jan 28, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

Devlin & Christie

I really enjoyed listening to Matt Devlin discuss the “history of the game” with Doug. It was a nice change from his usual commentary finesse contrasted by poignant articulation. (I wish there was a universal “sarcasm” font)

by PNUTZ on Jan 28, 2010 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

We should install one on the site. I’d use that font for all Hedo-related posts of course :)

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Hedo

for me is not the stats, it’s his attitude i feel like he doesn’t care about how poorly he is doing and he just doesn’t bring much for the team when he’s on the floor.
so far this is what i expect most of the time he gets the ball.
- Retains the ball for a larger time than needed giving the other team time get in position to defend.
- rush to get a shot typically a fadeaway shot and missed
- drive then ball to rim and since he’s too slow he gets block, opportunity to score missed
- make a horrible pass in the final seconds of the shot clock and the other player has to adjust and rush a shot and and you rush shot are mostly a loss opportunity to score unless you’re Kobe.

by elpikiman on Jan 28, 2010 10:58 AM EST reply actions  

Four pretty bang-on points, especially the Milt Palacio-esque lay-ups and fade-away-leaning jumpers.

I never expected the guy to come in and score 20 a night, not even 16. But he’s not even taking shots anymore, OR doing the other little things!

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe we should recalibrate

I think people don’t appreciate how good Bargnani is because his skill set doesn’t map to what is the conventional view of a traditional centre. I think that view is more myth than reality, with Shaq and Dwight Howard being the last of the archetype. I haven’t seen seen enough of Brook Lopez or even Chris Kaman but I think we have the most complete package of a centre when you consider where the game might be heading. We accept that this has become a guard oriented league, so doesn’t it make sense to have a centre who has some guard skills as part of his repertoire. Also, I think that with Bosh and Bargnani both being able to switch positions rather easily, Toronto might have the best young front-court in the league when you factor in Amir Johnson being able to complement either of them very well.

As complements, I think they are the best conceivable fit. J-O, a more traditional centre, didn’t work well with Bosh.

What would be interesting is to see how Colangelo replaces Bosh if he’s forced to, whether Andrea would be asked to move to the PF position (losing some of his current positional advantage) to get a more traditional centre or whether Colangelo would try for a future-Bosh type player. I would prefer the latter option, if we couldn’t keep Bosh because current examples of the former scenario (Dallas with Nowitzki and Dampier) aren’t that appealing.

by HQ Interloper on Jan 28, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions  

To be honest

Jo + Andrea did work quite well, Jo was shown the door because of his icompatibility with Bosh’s game, so, in that scenarion BC could go either way.

food for thoughts, are we sure BC will be the one handling the matter? after all his contract is up too. Given MSLE would be kind of foolish to let an about to leave GM to handle a matter of this magnitude (and the first decision gate is whether to deal CB at the trade deadline or not) may I infer that a BC extension has been agreed in principle?

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I appreciate the argument that Bargnani isn’t a traditional centre and has a unique skill set. Fair enough… But there are far two many times like last night where he’s getting two points on the offensive end, then failing to secure a rebound that’s well within his grasp or box out, and subsequently giving up easy buckets at the other end of the floor.

The bottom line is he’s 7-feet tall. He needs to use that height on defence occasionally as well.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

demar

i have a question will the injury to demar be serious enough to keep him out of the dunk contest

by raptors_run_the_show on Jan 28, 2010 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

Nah I think he’ll be back by this weekend their saying, but what I’m mad at is how the hell is he not playing in the rook sophomore game? That’s a joke

by sherwin316 on Jan 28, 2010 12:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Big Men

there aren’t enough big men to go around in the Rooks so thats why.
As for Jerebko, IM sure Stern had something to do with the ballots because he probably wanted to see more Jerseys sold in Sweden ;)

Fan of :
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Arizona Cardinal
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by zAIN J on Jan 28, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Solid point.

Also, D Stance raised a good point to me yesterday. While maybe DeMar is more deserving than Jerebko, isn’t Lawson more deserving even than DeMar?

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

definetly, but I doubt that would be possible with them already having Evans, Jennings and the most overrated pick (in my eyes) Curry. I think Lawson gets overlooked ALOT by some teams in the league

Fan of :
Toronto Raptors
Arizona Cardinal
Kansas Jayhawks

by zAIN J on Jan 28, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Webber and Divac

If you are looking for a big man combo to compare with Bosh and Bargnani then that is as good as it gets. At their peak in Sacramento W&D were an offensive dynamo with so-so defensive skills. They could do a wide variety of things on offense because both could hit a jumper and play in the post. The biggest difference right now between them and B&B is that W&D were dynamic passers. B&B show hints of passing ability every now and then, but if they could do that consistently then the Raptors offense would be even more efficient and deadly than it is currently.

With a supporting cast of Peja Stojakovic, Doug Christie and Jason “White Chocolate” Williams (not to mention Bobby Jackson and maybe Hedo, IIRC), Webber and Divac almost knocked off the Kobe-Shaq Lakers in the Western Conference finals one year (and likely would have taken the title if they had succeeded).

Could Bosh-Bargnani reach this level of execution and success if they played a few more seasons together? They have arguably as good a supporting cast around them as those Sacto teams had.

All this to say that I would love to find out how far Bosh-Bargs could take the Raptors if they can stay focused and continue developing their games. If Bosh decides to re-sign, maybe he could take Andrea (and Hedo) down to Texas this summer to work out with him and come back in top shape next season.

The bottom line: B&B need to show some intestinal fortitude and beat the Knicks tonight!

by DW19 on Jan 28, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

I think I can safely say that Bosh and Bargnani are nowhere close to Webber and Divac in terms of their passing ability. Bargs averages about one assist per game and has openly stated himself that he has trouble passing out of the post.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 28, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, that is why I said it was the biggest difference between the two combos. B&B will probably never get close to W&D in passing because they are nowhere near as good as individual passers. However, they are already developing a bit of cohesion now and that is only going to improve with time.

My main point is that there is a precedent of a big man combo who were offensively dynamic/defensively so-so that had a lot of success. And they did it with a decent, but not stellar, supporting cast.

by DW19 on Jan 28, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

the full line was

that when he posts he still watches the ball, and that makes it difficoult for him, AT THIS STAGE, to look around and make passes in that particular technical situation

by renato on Jan 28, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

So like,

Do you have every Bargnani interview transcribed and stored in a binder somewhere? Or do you save them all on your hard drive? Photographic memory when it comes to all things Il Mago? Honestly, I’m a little worried this fixation has gone from biggest fan to stalker. You’re not really in Spain at all are you? You’re sitting outside of Barg’s living room window with a laptop aren’t you? ; )

by Posterized on Jan 28, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Rebounds

If Bosh is pulling down 18 boards/night, yes – the combo with Bargs can work.

However, when Bosh has a 6-7 rebound night, it’s highly unlikely that Bargs can pick up the slack.

Plus – you could argue that with only a fixed number of shots to go around, putting so much emphasis on the PF/C means that your SG/SF aren’t really involved in the offense (hence, why we can still win with Hedo sucking).

by B.C. on Jan 28, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions  

Now there's a blog post

Great call B.C. – Hedo has only been taking a few shots a game lately; it would be really interesting to compare his FGA this year versus last, and Howard and Lewis last year, versus Bosh and Bargs this year. Hedo’s never been a great field goal shooter but perhaps he’s more of a volume chucker – so if he was getting 12 to 14 shots a game, his FG% would be much closer to his usual averages…

Bears looking into.

That being said, not sure I want Hedo taking 14 shots a game…

by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

B.C. stands for Bryan Colangelo doesn’t it? I knew you followed this blog. Quit trying to excuse Hedo’s poor performance Bryan! We’re on to you!!

by Posterized on Jan 28, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

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