Hedo Turkoglu – A Portland Blogger’s Take on the Situation

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT in Feature Stories

How great of a fit would Hedo and Roy been in Portland's back-court?

Last night while browsing through various posts on Twitter, I came across this note to Chris Bosh from Jason Kapono:

@chrisbosh woulda been sick to play with turk and you, but imma beat you guys with iggy and brand

This immediately caught my attention, not only because I always find these sort of athlete-to-athlete messages interesting, but also because Kapono, like many other NBA’ers of late, seems to be quite enthused about the addition of Hedo to Bosh and co.

It got me wondering about other individuals takes as well outside of the Raptor fan base.

I mean, what about other coaches and GM’s? If every NBA team had a chance to make a run at Turkoglu this off-season, even at the rumoured price Toronto is going to pay, would they have done so?

Of course I didn’t have that information at my disposal but taking things one step further, I wondered if via the NBA blogosphere, it would be thought-provoking to get the other side of the coin in this situation; ie a Portland Blogger’s take?

And who better to touch base with then Ben Golliver of the Portland Trailblazer’s blog, Blazer’s Edge.

I shot Ben a quick note yesterday therefore to get his take on 3 questions, sort of an off-season edition of our usual "Blogging with the Enemy" feature.

Here’s what he had to say:

1) RaptorsHQ: Originally, were you in favour of Portland's attempts to sign him?

Blazer’s Edge: Hedo has been talked about for weeks and weeks and weeks as a potential Portland free agent acquisition. Back in Mid-June I wrote,

"I wouldn't break the bank for Hedo although he would be a noticeable upgrade at the 3 and would certainly provide some starting lineup clarity. You can maybe shift Nic Batum to a reserve role but it's Martell Webster that really complicates things. Webster would be seeing negative playing time in that scenario, unless you can trade him, which would require convincing another team to take on 3 more years for a guy that hasn't stepped on an NBA basketball court (except to seriously injure his foot for the second time in 3 months) since the Spring of 2008. At this point Hedo feels like a long shot. Indeed, just about any move for a big time 3 seems like a long shot given Webster's (questionable) health and Batum's publicly-discussed role in the Blazers future."

Obviously, it didn't turn out to be a "long shot" given how hard and how far Portland pursued Hedo, but it never felt like exactly the "right fit." Not only because of the lineup questions posed above but because Hedo's status as the premier free agent on the market meant Portland would be cashing in years worth of salary cap flexibility chips to obtain him. It seemed like a departure from the Kevin Pritchard/Tom Penn tradition that we've seen over the last few years. Also, it didn't directly address either of the team's two biggest weaknesses: point guard and frontcourt toughness.

Don't get me wrong, though: it's important to add talented pieces even if they don't fit perfectly. Had the Blazers signed Hedo I wouldn't have been complaining. The question to me was always "Is Hedo the best option?" rather than "Is Hedo a good fit?" The Blazers punted at last year's trade deadline and this year's draft to put themselves in the best possible position to pursue... Hedo Turkoglu. Really? That was surprising to me given the other players that were out there available as salary dumps.

2) RHQ: Why or why not, and do you think he's worth the money that both Toronto and Portland were throwing at him?

BE: I wrote about 10 days ago that the fifth year of his projected deal seemed "almost out of the question" and even the 4th year was questionable when taking into account the growth curve of the rest of the Blazers. Hedo is going to make his biggest impact in the next two years, no one disputes that. I actually think that had the Blazers acquired Hedo, they were odds-on to make next year's Western Conference Finals. That's a huge step for this city and team and NO ONE would have been complaining about the extra 2 years on his deal if that had happened (at least not until a few years later). So for the Blazers you can definitely make the argument that he was worth it for the next two years and arguably the third year. After that, it gets hazy. You certainly know the Raptors' salary cap situation better than I do but it's hard to imagine anyone (especially a guy like Colangelo) banking on big production from Hedo come 2012-2013.

3) RHQ: And finally, what was the fall-out in Portland? Some Blazers' fans that I spoke to were furious with Turkoglu and others have been comparing it to Carlos Boozer's reneging on his handshake agreement with the Cavs a few years ago. Thoughts?

BE: I think there were two different trains of thought that immediately crystallized.

First, there were feelings of relief from the group that was against acquiring Hedo. This included a sub-group of fans that were initially against Hedo but rallied around this management group's decision to pursue him because of a strong faith in Pritchard and company established by their past performance. Once Hedo decided to go to Toronto, that support crumbled almost instantly, giving way to relief.

Second, and more interestingly, there were those fans (and there were many) that truly did want Hedo. For them Hedo's flip was a gut punch. Those are most likely the ones that are "furious" and feeling jilted that you've talked with. I think they have a right to their frustration. I felt the same way when Pritchard drafted Oden over Durant. "So close!!!! Yet so far."

Feeling powerless over a franchise that you care deeply about can be really, really frustrating.

In the end, though, the real fallout is a citywide confusion: "Oh crap, what's coming next?" The organization went all out for Hedo and failed. The fans right now are getting the impression that the organization didn't have any serious contingency plans. Hedo was plans A, B and C. Maybe D too.

Only time and action by Kevin Pritchard will resolve that feeling of confusion. So, I guess we'll see.

FRANCHISE

Tweet Comment 28 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Franchise...or sombody else.

I generally understand the breakdown of this stackhouse deal...but would like anybody to give me a slightly better understanding.

We would be doing this move i think to waive him before august 10th which clears us of his salary, but the buy out is 2 million... lets say we do buy him out for that 2 million, that then gives us a net number of what?...

For example... if we buy him out for that 2 million, do we then actually save 5 million dollars (due to him having a 7 million dollar contract)...IE. it puts us 5 million below the total raptors salary in comparison to when we have stackhouse not bought out?

Let me know what you think...additionally, i think it is a forgone conclusion he would be bought out if my understanding of the money is correct...however, out of curiousity, do you think stackhouse can still bring something to the table? He really has fallen off the map as far as i am concerned.

by Blanco on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Tough for Portland... always is when it feels like a player rejected your team. I think we in T.O. understand that more than anyone.

What I don't understand is why Portland was even chasing a FA. If its not broken why fix it? I guess Hedo does make them a better ball club... but how would they ever be able to keep their young talent, once contracts start coming up, with Hedo's on the book? Both Roy and Aldridge are going to command large salaries... and if Oden ever becomes the player they anticipated....

by Swirskys Soldier on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

The way I'm understanding this rumoured deal is…

We would send Marion to Dallas, and get Stackhouse back.

However due to us needing ALL of our cap to sign Hedo. We need a third team involved to take Stackhouse. A team with cap room like the Thunder for instance. At that point we would ship Stackhouse and perhaps an asset for draft picks (2nd rounders?). The sign and trade would allow us to retain our MLE and the BAE. This would allow us to afford the likes of a Deflino/Parker/Kliensa etc.

That's what I got for Doug Smith's article anyways.

Capologist can you perhaps give a better breakdown?

by j on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Actually I believe the raps still dont get the midlevel exception, since they're still under the cap after the trade and before signing Turk.

What it does do on the other hand is give the raps a potential trade exception, being the difference between Marion's first year salary and Stack's 7 million.

by dfp on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Forgot to add, if they trade Stackhouse for nothing, they get a huge $7 million trade exception, which could work, if one the teams with cap space would take him, $3million and maybe a second round pick to take him off the raps hands. At which point the receiving team would simply waive stack, make an easy million and potentially a draft pick, all for using 2 million is cap space

by dfp on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Apparently we do not regain the BAE or MLE. This is one of those deals where Colangelo gets Marion some extra money, something he apparently promised to try to do, and maybe gets a draft pick or picks for the future. All of this paraphrasing Doug Smith. They don't want to take back any salary whatsoever.

The way I see it, worst case scenario, the deal falls through and they simply sign Turkoglu by renouncing Marion et al, but with word getting out that they tried to make a deal, goodwill remains between Marion, Colangelo, and (most importantly in this scenario) Marion's agent. Managing team/agent relationships is essential in this day and age.

by Interloper on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

The wild card in this Dallas deal is that there is a possibility that Colangelo can extricate himself from the Banks contract anvil. It is not clear if it will be in the form of another player coming back or pure cap space. Either way, if BC pulls this off (gets rid of Banks), he earns a little street-cred in my eyes!

by MAS on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

With regards to the dallas deal:

the ideal scenario -- and the one BC is presumably angling towards--

Is finding a third team to take stackhouse, and sending us a traded player exemption.

We could then flip this TPE as well as some cash or what have you for turk.

This would allow us to get turk and not renounce our FAs and exemptions.

The hard part would be convincing orlando to do that.

Another scenario involves us just getting cash or low picks. - this would benefit dallas and marion, and we'd just be helping out and mildly compensated.

//
There is 18 page thread on real gm.. Towards the end some posters have made sense of the situation. The redeye has some clear explanations.

I can only presume that dougie smith hadn't concieved that as a possibility.

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Ya I would have prefered using word and doing some copy and pasting and quoting and fully explaining the situation!!

But for those with general understandings of the situation - the TPE would be the key to a possible sign and trade with orlando.

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Ok, so this is from RealGM.

Today's rumblings that BC is trying hard to keep possibly both Parker and Delfino, indicates to me that BC is trying to realize this scenario.

Rapsobsessed7 wrote:
I kept hearing BC trying to get Hedo through a "creative way" and i think i found out what would be a creative way. If you trade a TE (trade exception) you keep the MLE + Delfino this way and Orlando can use the TE to get someone else much like the Camby trade last year. So heres my go on whats going to happen.

Either Memphis/OKC would get involved to facilitate it. Now it works salary wise so stay with me on it as its going to be a long post

Raptors Trade:
S&T Shawn Marion 6,200,000
Kris Humphries $2,900,000

Raptors Get:
Conditional Second Round Pick (Likely never will see it)

Why this creates a trade exception of about 9,100,000 which should be enough for the later deal for Hedos starting salary. Doug Smith mentioned BC getting creative well this is as creative as it gets.

Dallas Trades:
Jerry Stackhouse $7,250,000
3 million Cash
Rights to Shan Foster (2008 Second Round Draft Pick)
= 9, 162, 500 (after X 1.25 + 100,000)

Dallas Gets:
S&T Shawn Marion 6,200,000
Kris Humphries $2,900,000

Dallas gets a big man in Hump that replaces Bass off the bench with them signing Gortat and they get Marion to add to the puzzle who can help with defense + rebounding

Oklahoma City Trades or Memphis:
TE

Oklahoma City Gets or Memphis:
Jerry Stackhouse $7,250,000
3 million Cash
Rights to Shan Foster (2008 Second Round Draft Pick)

Either team can use Stackhouse as a trading chip, he comes paid for and they get a second round draft pick out of it. He could be a useful trading chip so they can flip him somewhere else if they want but he comes paid for.

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

So that is one example.

Hump doesn't need to be included. And the specific sweetners could be anything.

But seems somewhat feasible. -- hopefully lego master can piece something together!

Interesting read from the portland perspective. Thanks!

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

TJ,

If all parties agree, then this deal has some legs.

The only two issues is that perhaps OKC has no desire to help the mavericks a western conference foe (although in reality why would they care). While Orlando, if they are near the luxury tax area and have no desire to add more pieces to their team via a TE will have no desire to help an eastern conference foe solidify themselves in the Eastern Conference playoff picture (again, if I am Orlando this deal makes total sense for me because I can add by free agency or trade with any team and go for the gold while not being limited to the toronto roster.

Good work. Although I am sure that having have never seen something so complicated executed in the NBA before likely would suggest that it wont happen.

by Oyster Boy on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

OB -

I agree about the complexity. Even this being discussed raises my regard to BC and his administrations expertise.

The pitfall as you point out is coaxing the team with cap space, and orlando to play along.

Neither us nor dallas can trade first round picks.

I'm truly not sure what kind of assets we can get from Dallas. But I have my doubts whether 3 mill and a future second will grease much in the way of wheels.

But it would be very impressive if our boy BC can do it.

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

hey if someone could help....is it possible to just buyout marcus banks' contract and then have more cap space for another player

by fizzle on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Fizzle,

If he were to be bought out, it would count against the cap.

Something that I think would work and would probably be less complicated than trying to get a third team to give up a trade exception would be to include Banks with Marion.

Stack does not make enough to trade for Banks + Marion signed for more than the MLE. However, if you were to include Devean George's small expiring contract with Stack, it could work. Marion could get a starting salary of 6.7 million with 10.5% raises thereafter.

Toronto would save just over 800,000 this year and get out of Banks's contract for next year. If that is not enough money for Banks, they could take Antoine Wright and save 300,000 plus get out of next year.

by JBen on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Sorry folks, been out of the loop with work all day so great work TJ on explaining the situation. It's a bit weird in a way as while I'm sure some degree of "politicking" has to go on with agents behind the scenes, I'd say the average fan would rather see Marion suffer through a measley $5 Million or less based on him turning down Toronto's VERY reasonable offer.

Also, it would be a dream if Banks could go but I don't see it right now...

by Franchise on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Current speculation suggests that the TPE for Hedo(SnT) ain't happening and that BC is trying to get them to take Banks.

Too bad, the previously discussed transactions had me impressed!

by TJ Caino on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

When I suggested yesterday and today that Banks could be included with Marion, it was not something that I had heard, just something that I thought made sense.

After TJ who seems very knowledgeable has said he's heard about it, I started searching the news. I found an article that mentioned the inclusion of Banks. Also Dallas fans have heard of it, and are discussing it here: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/07/sticking-point-in-the-marion-talks.html

by JBen on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

JBen

reading your link it's like reading a bunch of 8 yr olds lol

Thankfully We have this site!

by Davl on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great link!

We should all hush in case they find our opinions...

by JENGE on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

You know, reading through the sign and trade proposals, I wonder if this might just be getting a bit out of hand. I understand there are capologists who obsess over this stuff, but how does an average fan relate to these kinds of moves?

Oh well, don't mind me, I'm just an old crank. As for the Portland fans, I understand your frustration - to a point. It could be worse. Try being an NBA fan in Seattle.

by Skywalker on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Skywalker,

The average Raptor fan would probably not even realize that an S&T of Marion+Banks for Stack(waived)+George/Wright/Shawne Williams happened. Those who follow the Raptors in the summer and are somewhat informed would not likely be upset by it, because they would probably realize that Marion could not be resigned with Turk on board and would think of it as Banks for another spare part.

However, the average fan may be able to get excited when BC would be able to use the 5 million saved by dumping Banks to sign an FA next year.

by JBen on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

looks like the raps have extended bargnani as well. 5 years, $50 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312517

by j on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Just announced by the NBA, the Salary Cap for 09/10 is reduced to $57.7mil from $58.68mil for 08/09 and the Tax Level is reduced to $69.92mil from 71.15mil for 08/09. The new MLE is $5.854mil.

by Johnn19 on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Bargs deal is excellent, just excellent. I think it's pretty fair.

What's the deadline to get the Marion S&T done? Anything more on that?

by Member29 on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

5 years and $50 Million is a great deal for the Raps for Bargnani. I was expecting a deal anywhere between $10-13 Million per year. This could be a relatively good bargain for the Raps. Great move by Colangelo.

by Bball on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great work by Colangelo all off season.

-went after Ariza-----nice
-changed tunes to get Hedo after Marion waitd too long to decide------great

-trying to free up money for bench help----good

-resigning Bargnani for 50 Mill over 5 years----nice steal

Can't wait to see what else happens.

by Sharpy on Jul 8, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I have no problem with the values of AB, HT or JCs contracts. (Presuming JC can rebound to his form of two years ago, and AB continues his develepment.)

I have reservations about giving Bosh the max - but I'm not necessarily against it.

My main concern, as was pointed out, is the possibility of a large drop of the cap next year. With the tax around 70, having 4 guys at 50 is a lot more workable than the tax inching towards 60!

Of course this depends on MLSE's willingness to pay the tax.

I'm cool with maxing out Bosh, and using both exemptions next offseason if the teachers are...

by TJ Caino on Jul 8, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions