The Value of Jarrett Jack

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 8:48 AM EDT Comment 84 comments

Riddle me this:

If you're Bryan Colangelo and you have $6 million in MLE to spend thanks to a fortuitous trade, do you:

a) Immediately spend it on multiple players to shore up multiple holes in your lineup;
b) Take your time and wait for deals to fall through the cracks and hopefully grab some bargains; or
c) Spend the vast majority of it on a free agent that addresses one of your major needs.

When Colangelo decided to spend his hard-fought, hard-earned MLE on a player of Jarrett Jack's reputation and ability, I was at first, enthusiastic about the move. With Roko Ukic showing little improvement from last season during the Summer League action, and the point guard situation still very much up in the air (seriously, Smush Parker?!), the Raptors needed to shore up the position - preferrably with a player that would be a consummate professional, be able to take charge of the second unit, and perhaps most importantly, be able to play more than one position. By adding a versatile guard to the roster like Jack, it would allow the Raptors to include Ukic in the regular rotation should he show steady improvement over the course of the year.

However, at an announced $20 million over 4 years, Jarrett Jack will not only become one of the higher paid Raptors but his addition would also bring the team's total salary committment to the point guard position (Calderon, Banks, Ukic, Douby, and Jack) to just under $20 million per year! In a calculated move, BC offered Jack enough money to make it hard for Indiana to match. Should the Pacers decide to match the offer it would put them in a difficult salary cap situation. That being said if Jack does wear a Raps jersey this coming season BC can't be comfortable having almost 1/3rd of the salary cap tied up in the PG position - especially when two of those guys likely won't contribute.

Many fans in Indiana (specifically those over at Indy Cornrows) have talked about how Jack has really emerged in the past year as a professional who works hard and gets after the ball. He has been known to turn the ball over with some mental errors, but he has helped the Pacers with his toughness and willingness to attack the basket. At 6'3", Jack is rarely at a high disadvantage when covering the other teams PG and his strength doesn't allow the opposition to run isolation and back him down into the post. Perhaps Jack's real value to this Raptors team will be his ability to improve the play of just about everyone in the second unit. Jack is a willing distributor and can manage the floor. He did afterall, surpass TJ Ford on the depth chart last season...something Jose Calderon is all too familiar with.

Even with Jack's addition however, the Raptors still have some holes that need to be filled. With Patrick O'Bryant showing why he's been a 7 foot door stop for most of his career, the Raptors must find a way to shore up their front court. With only Chris Bosh, Andrea Bargnani, and Reggie Evans as suitable rotational players the Raptors are missing some size and depth. If the Raptors cannot come to terms with another big then signing Jack just isn't enough.

Should Tuesday roll around and we find out that JJ is the newest Raptor I will be satisfied with the move but it's going to be too early to break out the champagne. Rather, I'll be looking to see what Colangelo's next move will be.

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I would be extremely happy with Jack signed, regardless if it is 20million over 4 years. In fact, I think this signing is more important than a big. We all saw the huge problems when Calderon was injured and how pooly the team operated with our ‘backups’. This would provide insurance incase he gets hurt again, he can provide timely defense if substitued properly, and he can lead the 2nd bench. With Bargs and Bosh, you would expect them to eat up most of the minutes at the F/C position. Evans will always be playing with one of those two. Really, you only need to worry if one of them is injured. But I suspect a Rasho signing for cheap is on BC radar, he will provide the injury insurance. Sure he wouldnt be as good as some others, but he would provide solid minutes until the injured player came back. What’s the point in spending the money on a few FA hoping that one of them turns into a diamond in the rough. let us be serious here, split that money on 2 players, would either of them be any good?

by solarscott on Jul 15, 2009 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My worry right now is that another team will look at Rasho for more than the bi-annual. Yes, he’s a bit older than most other centers, but he’s still a pretty valuable piece in my opinion. For example, Detroit would have the space and the need.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rasho

I am against signing Rasho and Delfino for that matter. Why bring guys back who didn’t help us get out of the first round? I would like to see BC go after someone like Wilcox, who has generated little interest but would thrive in a running system. Watching Rasho lumber up and down the court doesn’t interest me. I would also rather see Kleiza than Delfino. If Delfino was as good as people think he is he wouldn’t have spent last season abroad.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 15, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Pffft sure, why would we want guys who didn’t get us out of the 1st round?

Gee, you know, NO ONE on our team has ever gotten us out of the first round…

Well, trade Bosh, Bargs, and Jose now, cause they didn’t help us get out of the first round.

Personally, I think we need that solid C to anchor the defense (Rasho) more than another runner to go along with AB and CB. Remember one of the two will likely be on the court for most of the game.

Can’t get Kleiza if we get Jack – and I think a Jack + Delf combo fills more needs than Kleiza.

by dhackett1565 on Jul 15, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotta admit

that was the first line of thought through my mind as well. Yeah, we didn’t do anything with him, but that’s the same argument that was made for Carlos Delgado before he left in free agency, the team not succeeding doesn’t mean that these players are worthless. But, saying that, it’s basically a debate between: would you rather try to win 50 games (unlikely, perhaps, but not out of the question) or do you rebuild at the first sign of trouble and try to win a championship at any cost? maybe in the grand scheme the second option is the best but… they have a fan base to worry about.

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 15, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I concur

I like Rasho but to me he duplicates too much of what Bargnani does. He’s not the most athletic, he’s a jump shooter, not great on the boards. I think we need a guy like Wilcox with a totally different skill set. So when we need an athletic power player for certain matchups we have one on the bench, instead of having to watch the more athletic teams like the Hawks murder us on the boards.

by CalexanderJ on Jul 15, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lolwat

Rasho is like the complete opposite from Bargnani…

by Adi C on Jul 15, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Jack signing will be solid ...

Rasho and Delfino will also help if signed. “Brain” Colangelo doesn’t really keep his cards that close to his chest and it is known that he wants both. So the mystery of what happens after Jack isn’t really going to be that much of a surpise. Of course things can happen and a lot can change and this is just what I believe. My question is .. if Rasho and Delfino ARE signed after Jack … is this enough to keep the RHQ nation happy (for this year)?

"even though I was born in Toronto Canada and I love the BlueJays and the Raptors and the Leafs .. I cut my finger this morning and I was BLEEDING KC RED BABY!!!"

by T-DotChiefFanSince93 on Jul 15, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

great post by the way ...

nice topic to start off the day!!

"even though I was born in Toronto Canada and I love the BlueJays and the Raptors and the Leafs .. I cut my finger this morning and I was BLEEDING KC RED BABY!!!"

by T-DotChiefFanSince93 on Jul 15, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In my opinion, those pieces would be a pretty good solid team to field for the year. I still worry about offensive output from the bench, but hopefully Jack will be able to increase the efficiency of the bench if he’s signed.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve been a huge Jack fan since his gutsy performance with GT in the March Madness a few years back. He is the perfect backup. Just a reminder, Jose has yet to complete a full season without getting hurt for a decent stretch, and unfortunately I think this’ll be the year we start questioning his durability.

by Ustation on Jul 15, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Value of Jarret Jack

How soon they forget, Calderon played all 82 games in 07/08 starting 56 when TJ was hurt, with 8.3 ast and 11.2 pts, generating all-star consideration.

He is not injury prone, with the hamstring problem last year being the first time, and due to the lack of talent as back-up, requiring him to play without letting it completely heal.

by Johnn19 on Jul 15, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry.. I meant start all 82 games, but your point taken and I stand corrected.

by Ustation on Jul 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’d also say he’s not injury prone as his injuries are not recurring.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t mean that JC is chronically injured, just that his style lends to getting hurt. He’s no A.I. in terms of the aggressive drives he takes, but when he does and takes a spill he lands fairly akwardly vs balanced.

He’s no Camby or VC either in terms of toughness, but there’s something there. Hopefully I’m way wrong, but I can’t see him start all 82 games, or even 70 games this year due to some kind of injury.

by Ustation on Jul 15, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd say the exact opposite, actually

He’s a much more cerebral and patient PG than someone like TJ Ford. Like any PG in the league, he takes it to the bucket every now and then. But most of the time he directs the offense from the perimeter and waits for the open guy.

by Chutney on Jul 15, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He hardly gets hit getting to the basket (unless he was previously injured) and he’s definitely not the kind of guy who has gotten injured constantly by driving. Besides that one injury to his hamstring last year driving to the basket, his dislocated finger and plantar faciitis were not injuries due to drives.

And most players have some sort of injury over the year.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He tore his Ab/Groin in the Olympics. He layed motionless vs Golden State and needed to be carried of a stretcher.

I just think these all add up.

by Ustation on Jul 16, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His tear came from overwork from what I remember, and that Golden State hit probably would have taken out 99% of the people out there. Haven’t seen any side effects from that GS fall.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 16, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Perfect Backups" -- do they cost $5 million?

Jack’s a very reasonable veteran pickup for a team that’s more-or-less being built around convincing Bosh that he should hang around. The question is whether he’s worth the salary he’s getting.

This free agency market seems like it’s soft for point guards. ‘Dre Miller’s still bouncing around, and fan board favorites like Ramon Sessions almost seem to be without significant suitors. I like Jack in that company largely because he figured to be a middle class signing who played defense.

But on the face of it, Toronto’s probably overpaid a bit for both Turkoglu and Jack. They’re both among my favorite players, but then anyone who’s overpaid is ultimately going to turn into a bad contract at some point. Kevin Garnett did, in a sense.

by feral on Jul 16, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, Players are only worth having in the context of their contracts, no matter who/how good they are.

Jack is only being overpaid a million or two per year over 4 years, but lack of payroll control is is visible up and down the Raptors’ roster and in many of the moves Colangelo had done in the past (Garbo, AP, Kapono, Rasho, JO, etc). If you overpay 5 players by 1-2 million each, that is one or two less rotation players you’ll have on your roster.

The issue with Jack’s deal isn’t that he is a poor, ill-fitting acquistion, it’s that the bank account is nearly empty and we still haven’t addressed a number of our remaining holes.

by bigweeze on Jul 16, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I’d have to disagree with your examples, but you are correct in your assessment that the Raptors have taken on some bad contracts. Garbo was only bad due to injuries, and it would be like saying Alvin Williams’ contract was bad. AP’s is a contract that’s still worthy since it was a contract that most people thought he should be valued at for his new contract. Kapono, yes, I’d agree, was a pretty bad signing. Rasho was not a signing done by Colangelo and I still believe that at 7 or 8 million, he was a good piece (just not used properly by his coach). And JO’s monster contract was something that should never have been traded for, but Colangelo didn’t sign him to that contract.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 16, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, it’s a matter of opinion, but I would have a hard time being convinced that we have gotten good bang for the buck on more than half of our highly paid players over the last 5-10 years.

One of Colangelo’s problems is that he has consistently dealt a smaller amount of salary for a bigger, less attractive contract despite the talent being relatively even. He dealt about 5m of obligations for 7-8 in Rasho (an admitted mistake by San Antonio). 2-3m in CV turned into 8+ with TJ. Then the two (16m) ballooned up to 20m with JO instead of sticking with an expiring Bonner, E. Williams, and CV. If we had a GM who sat on his hands, we would not have Marcus Banks, we would have had our 1st rounder, and we would not have an obligation for a future 1st. A little patience is needed at times.

Also, BC has gone after these inflated contracts WILLINGLY, so that does not excuse him just because it was another team’s signing.

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dealing Charlie for TJ was hardly his fault

CV was still on his rookie contract…

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 17, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah that didn't make any sense

i meant to say “the unbalanced contracts” because CV deserved more than he was making, but his rookie contract meant his salary was fixed

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, it’s a matter of opinion, but part of having cap space means that you can make trades to make your team better by taking on larger contracts. I still have issues with people calling Rasho’s contract a mistake when you look at the big men contracts of the NBA. You almost never see a seven footer for less than 10 million, let alone one that can help you out in so many ways. Not only that, the Raptors got rid of Eric Williams’s contract at the same time.

At the end of the day, you can’t just make a deal to get something for nothing. It rarely happens. When we look at the Garnett and Gasol deals, they’re not the norm in the NBA. And the Raptors too were not looking to shed contracts at the time, but rather were trying to pick up missing pieces. When Bryan had to go into shedding contracts, he’s done so fairly well. He’s gotten rid of Jermaine O’Neal’s contract, gotten rid of Kapono’s, Eric Williams’s, T.J. Ford’s, and Fred Jones’s. I just don’t see it as a one way thing, otherwise we’d have a payroll like the Knicks’ of two years ago.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 17, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One thing to remember is that cap space when you are under the cap is different than when you are over the cap.

When you are under the cap, you are free to do ANYTHING – so adding inflated contracts is something that should be avoided. When you are over the cap, you are limited in what you can do so you sometimes have to bite the bullet and take an overpaid player or two in trade if he fits what you want.

There are plenty of big men worth less than 10 million per year. That line of thinking gets you Erick Dampier for 5 years, 50+ million. If Rasho was worth even close 10 million per year, why is nobody even offering him the MLE this year? Unless he has fallen off very badly since his time in TO (which he hasn’t), shouldn’t teams be tripping over themselves to sign him even for 3-5 million?

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rasho is a player who has never averaged over 12 ppg or even 8 rpg. It’s almost incomprehensible that he could be worth 8 million per year (got paid off of a career high in pts), though he is a solid team player.

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I just get frustrated with mistakes causing further mistakes. He’s the one who acquired O’Neal, Kapono, Ford, Jones when he didn’t have to. And why should you get credit for cleaning up your own mess sloppily? I want a GM who makes small messes infrequently and can clean them up properly. BC didn’t exactly dump TJ’s contract – he acquired an albatross of a deal and gave up a first round pick to do it. The Raps’ janitor could have swung that trade on his break.

BC gets into rather similar situations as JP Riccardi. It seems like both GMs are always digging themselves out of holes after a big whiff.

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on how you look at it I guess. TJ’s contract is still ongoing and will be for another year, maybe and probably two, with the propensity to get injured in a major way again.

Look, at the end of the day, I agree with you that Colangelo has gotten himself into some very tough situations with regards to contracts, sometimes of his own doing. But I also believe that it’s something that happens to the best of GMs. The important thing is that he’s been able to get out from under those contracts as well. You try to land players that you believe will fit your team and maybe most importantly, your coach’s style. (And yes, part of me wants to put some of this at the feet of Sam Mitchell for insisting on playing a certain way.)

And when you’re under the cap, you’re not free to just go crazy because as you said, once you’re over, you are restricted. Heck, if you go over, you don’t get the MLE or BAE that year, so signing the right players to fill out your roster for that year is pretty important. It’s not like people have a LeBron, Kobe, and bunch of other players and still are under the cap. It usually means that your team is pretty dry and you need good players to fill out your roster.

I cannot believe that you just compared him to Riccardi though. It’s not even close. How has Riccardi gotten out from under contracts such as Vernon Wells or Alex Rios? Even Burnett was a contract that was simply player terminated.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 17, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You try to land players that you believe will fit your team and maybe most importantly, your coach’s style. (And yes, part of me wants to put some of this at the feet of Sam Mitchell for insisting on playing a certain way.)

I agree with that, but BC didn’t exactly help Sam out here.

I cannot believe that you just compared him to Riccardi though. It’s not even close. How has Riccardi gotten out from under contracts such as Vernon Wells or Alex Rios? Even Burnett was a contract that was simply player terminated.

He would do things like sign Hinske long-term then pay the majority of his salary to trade him away. Same with Koskie. He would trade his young, cost-controlled, gold glove 2b in Hudson for an injury-prone 3b with a large contract (Glaus). He would sign BJ Ryan to a large 5-year deal (instead of being more cautious) and then cut him after 3.5 years. On a high-risk deal he gives Burnett player options assuring that we lose him if he is any good, or keep him as dead weight if he fails. And let’s not forget what happened with the Big Hurt…

Signing guys is great – they have instant impact. But as every GM will make mistakes, it’s important to protect yourself from the downside. The Toronto GMs just don’t have a good history in that regard.

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BC and JP often get tunnel vision. When you’re committed to one idea, you can tend to follow blindly without regard for the costs involved. Imagine searching for a car and then settling on one. If the salesperson (basketball agent) knows this – his job isn’t to sell you the car (player) at an affordable/agreeable price. He knows you want the car, and his job is now to extract as much $ from you as possible for himself and the dealership. So, you go and buy rustproofing, extended warranties, bla bla bla (extra dollars/years on the contract). The car would obviously be great for the first few years, but when the payments are still going and going but could have been finished had you been more modest, you’ll regret it..

The Raptors are in the negotiation phase with Carlos Delfino, who is another solid player but not an irreplacable one. It seems that Delfino has the leverage even though the Raptors should. Nobody is offering Delfino anything and if he doesn’t want to play for his tender or sign at a reasonable price, we can send him back to Europe and he will be no freer next offseason. Just because he has Bird Rights does not mean he’s obligated to an inflated contract.

And how did we end up paying Turkoglu MORE than Portland when he essentially gift-wrapped himself to us? It’s that tunnel vision. Turkoglu at 43m/5 years is much different than 53m/5 years.

Jarrett Jack for 10m/3yr is much different than 20m/4yr. There are no bonus wins for stealing another team’s RFA, maybe just worthless pats on the back – so pay a player what he is worth. A few years ago, people though the Redskins were smart when they poached the Jets’ FAs (Coles, Morton) and it might be the wave of the future. And it didn’t turn out to be – what benefit is there to overpaying players plus giving draft pick compensation? Even if you take a player off of an opposing team, overpaying players only hurts yourself in the long run.

JP and BC do some of their best work when forced to get creative and work within a budget! Which is ironic when you think about it..

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some comments

- Raptors have not signed Delfino yet and I suspect they are not impressed with his price. I think you have to wait to see what he signs for (if he does) before you can accuse BC of competing with himself in this case.

-I’m pretty sure Hedu’s playing in Portland if the Rap’s offer is $10m less even if he likes the city of Portland less.

-JJ does not sign for a 10m/3yr contract and even if he does, Indy matches at that price. I happen to think that the 20/4 is a reasonable contract for JJ, given that you expect him to earn substantial minutes off the bench.

by siggian on Jul 17, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Appreciate the comments.

- We will see with Delfino, nothing is in stone yet. I prefer taking a hard stand -I heard he is holding out for 5m with an offer or 4m. That is definitely at the high range of his value, especially in this market. Overpaying your entire roster by 20% means your 60m payroll team is equal to a 50m payroll team that pays appropriately.

- What is the point at which Hedo is indifferent between playing in Portland vs. Toronto? That ideally is where our offer should have come in or slightly higher. It is still inexcusable to offer anything beyond Portland’s offer as that is the definition of bidding against yourself.

- I would hope Jack is matched, and even if Jack would be matched in my scenario – if you put a FA value on a player, you should not exceed it. Treating a RFA differently than a UFA and placing a value on “winning” with your bid is an awful idea. Assuming you do sign the player, he is no better or worse whether he comes from RFA/UFA status. The only thing I could understand is wanting to make the bid count because opportunities could be missed during the matching period. But there are still some decent FA targets even if Jack falls through.

I like what the Lakers’ management is doing this offseason. Ariza’s agent is to blame bluffing and putting him in Houston (taking the same amount to go elsewhere), and they are sticking to their guns pretty well on Odom (even though I think he’s worth what he wants). Having a frugal ownership group is not a bad thing especially in basketball with it’s unique soft salary cap system. A team like Dallas will never ever make it under the cap due to Mark Cuban’s open wallet. I prefer measured spending and going up/over the luxury when the team is a real contender. There is no point in going to or beyond the luxury tax if you are out of the top 5-6 teams.

by bigweeze on Jul 17, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This thread is definitely setting a record. lol.

Yeah, I dunno. I don’t ever see Riccardi getting good deals. Ever. And drafting is kinda so-so. But I guess that is all a matter of opinion. Riccardi doesn’t actually rectify mistakes though, and that’s where all my contention is with the comparison. He just simply lets people go, puts them on waivers or buys them out. There’s been no success with the Blue Jays.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 17, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow, that's a really oversimplified statement

Rolen for Glaus? Accardo for Hillenbrand? Scutaro for (I have no idea)? Hill’s deal is excellent. Granted, he probably overpaid for Rios and is overpaying for Wells, but at least in Vern’s case ownership signed the check because they couldn’t afford the backlash of letting him walk. Snider still appears to be an excellent pick, and look at the pitchers, man! 6 rookies this year! how can you blame that on him?

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 19, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup, a big oversimplification. Sorry. I just don’t see how you can compare the two. With just about every big move he’s had to make, he’s failed, but I’ll say that he’s always had good scouts. He’s not bad at small-to-medium sized moves, but none of those are usually make or break moves for a club, especially in baseball.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 19, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point

i think it’s fair to say he’s good at making a little something from nothing, but he can’t make money into as much as he should

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 20, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Basketball is actually the sport where 80% of moves mean next to nothing. Until you grab your 2-3 stars, everything else is just spinning the wheels (a waste of money).

That’s why I didn’t advocate signing Jack – I don’t think we’re in the position to contend yet based on our best players. I think he’s nearly peaked – similar to our signings of Parker and Garbajosa. This means our best season with him will be the first and his contract makes it more difficult ot add pieces in the next offseason. I think a guy like Kleiza has a good deal of room to grow. A fully developed Kleiza is worth far more to the Raptors in 2-3 years than a Jarrett Jack similar to the one we have now, even if Jack is currently the better fit. Over the next 4 years (even if we resign Bosh) our only candidates for improvement are Bargs and Derozan, which may not be enough to put us where we need to be.

You always have to think ahead in basketball – think back to 04 when we passed on drafting Iguodala because we had Carter, Rose and Peterson on the roster. Not all that shockingly, after a year or two all of them were gone – and so we were stuck with Hoffa.

by bigweeze on Jul 20, 2009 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JJ is a huge signing for the raps, addresses the needs of a backup PG and a possible starting SG (along with Delfino). Rasho will be our backup centre which is all we can get with the vet minimum that we’re offering, and he can still play D and hold his own against players like Howard.

I wouldn’t worry about the $20 Mill in PG’s, as that’s an artifact of the JO trade, Banks will be traded at the first opportunity and we haven’t given up on Roko yet. Both Douby & Roko are easily tradeable (worst case scenario) so again it doesn’t matter that this money is tied up (for now).

I love the fact that Jack is a hard nosed defending guard, something we’ve been missing for the last few years, hopefully this will make a big difference in our ability to lock down speedy guards. Looking like a great year for us coming up!

Cheers, and btw, LOVE the new site, been reading this blog for over 3 years now!

by Smoothfan on Jul 15, 2009 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Banks is one of those cap heavy problems

He’s bounced a couple of times since Phoenix signed him, but the guy’s contract relative to his production is unpalatable at best. Banks is most likely going to get through next offseason on the Raptors’ cap, isn’t he? Any team taking him is foregoing a chunk of, or a lever on, the 2010 FA class.

by feral on Jul 16, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know O’Bryant isn’t having a steller summer league, but he did not look so bad at the end of the season last year. I feel he can still be a back up big for the Raps, and with the passers that we have on the team once he understands his roll and focus more on his defence, (rebounding and shot blocking) I think he will actually surprise a few folks this season. After all he is a 1st round pick that is taking a little long to develope…..lol. but seriously right now unless BC can get Kleiza with the money that’s left or Rosho then I say we cut Patrick some slack with the negative publicity and hopefully he can continue where he left off last season, because it seems like he was getting it together. …..Raps4Life

by raps4life on Jul 15, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Judging by last year and summer league, he doesn’t do much rebounding or shot blocking, which are the major problems of his game really. He has a ton of problems even blocking out summer league players which doesn’t bode well for the team.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

O’Bryant = Maceo Baston, William Cunningham, Nate Huffman, Jelani Mcoy, Jerome Moiso, Mamadou N’Diaye, Uros Slokar.

by Ustation on Jul 15, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

O’Bryant has 3 things going for him. He is 7 ft, only 23, and inexpensive @ $855k, so will get a chance this year to prove he can play, in practice, or in case of injury. Other than that I hope he has some nice suit’s.

by Johnn19 on Jul 15, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If you’re going to spend a large chunk of NBA salary cap money, you might as well do it on point guards or bigs. The $20 million figure for Raptors’ point guards is a little inflated, since we’re forced to consider Marcus Banks a point guard (intsead of what he rightfully is — the “tax” that allowed Colangelo to get out of JO’s deal and ultimately land Hedo).

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 15, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Where were you when Isiah Thomas needed you to ignore some contracts off of his books?

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So true. I could’ve been Zeke’s capologist :)

But seriously, one onerous $5 million/year contract for Marcus Banks doesn’t put the Raptors anywhere near the salary cap mess that was/is the New York Knicks.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 15, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One is not bad, but when you get two or more of those contracts glued to the bench, it becomes quite difficult to win unless you have some serious top-end talent.

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with "RaptorsHQ – Defensive Stance " (which is bit of a long name, ha ha).

Let’s not fret about the $20 Mill on PG’s.

by Smoothfan on Jul 15, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

5 million per year is too much for a backup point guard when you have a highly paid starter. What is even worse is that it’s a 4 year deal.

The point of signing players is not to find the Pacers’ breaking point and exceed it (aside from the moral victory), it’s to get good value for your money and Jarrett Jack is simply not a 5 million dollar player.

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

@bigweeze: What are you talking about? The guy puts out 14 ppg, 4 asts and ~3.5 rpg, for 5 Million / year?? Compare this to Kapono (6 mill), Banks (5 Million) and a bunch of other players at 5 Million, you’ll see that NO ONE gives you that kind of production. He’s good on defense, can play the 1-2 spots and is only 24 years old (hasn’t reached his potential yet).

Heck, even TJ ford is making 8 Mill/year and isn’t better than Jack (he took over TJ’s starting role). 5 Million is nothing for a guy can only get better and maybe get up to 17ppg as he gets better.

Find me ONE young player with his stats, can play and guard two positions and is as durable and hard working (played all 82 games for the last 2 years) for 5 Million per year. You need to examine the facts a little closer.

by Smoothfan on Jul 15, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Missed your comment here Smoothfan but I think you hit the nail right on the head…great value.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jul 15, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So when you say great value, you mean what exactly? He is going to play like an 8m/yr player?

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

- Jack is not likely to exceed 14 ppg, 4 ast and 3.5 reb joining a better team with more scoring options. You’re falling into the trap of looking at counting stats – Jack played 33 mpg last year which he is unlikely to exceed this year, he has to share the ball/shots with guys like Turkoglu (who’s never met a PG he would pass to), Bosh, and Bargnani. If he ups his ppg by 3 (unlikely), it will be at the expense of shots from our other players.

- And why is a backup point such a high priority now with Turkoglu the ball-handler on the roster? We have Turkoglu and Derozan starting and our primary backups on the wing are Devean George and Antoine Wright pending Delfino – but we are still awfully thin.

- The bottom line is that a combo guard like Jack is a role player or bench player. While he may be productive, players of his type do not command large amounts of money on long contracts and ARE replacable. And Jack is not particularly young, he is 25 turning 26.

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Franchise: Thanks!

Bigweeze: You’re missing the fact that Derozan is a ROOKIE. He’s not going to be playing 35 mins/game, more like 15-20 (if that). Having JJ play at the 2 in a starting or backup role is why we need him (badly). Also, if Jose gets hurt again, this team is going downhill since we don’t have a descent backup. Orlando had Anthony Johnson, Boston had Eddie House, Suns had Barbosa. See where I’m getting at? It’s a critical position not to have a descent back up.

His points won’t fall off, he may even get more assists on our team since we’re a much better shooting team than Indiana. Your assists are related to how well your team finishes, Indiana is not a good team. George won’t see much playing time, and Wright is not a scorer.

The bottom line is, we need him to play SG and also as a backup PG, he’s two for the price of one and since when is 25 old??? He’s a great deal , can play D, can score, can pass, and he’s cheap! What are you talkin about here….

by Smoothfan on Jul 15, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eddie House – 3m, Anthony Johnson – 2m. Both deals are expiring this year. Jack is good, but combo guards are not exactly scarce.

Even if Jack is worth 5 million – which is a stretch to say the least – the length of the contract is problematic. You just don’t tie up money in non-critical areas. A long contract isn’t a crime that shows up right away, but every team has dead money and it’s because they keep handing out contracts that are too long. Ever wonder why Orlando would choose to pay VC 33m/2yrs (with a little offset) but wouldn’t commit to Turkoglu for 53m/5yrs like we did? Turkoglu’s deal is only 20m/3yrs longer, but they didn’t want to tie up their cap space in him for 2011/12 and beyond.

Long contracts mean you have Reggie Evans or Marcus Banks on your roster at 5 million per year each because you had to flip poor fitting bench players with another team who made the same mistake you did. If you know a guy is going to be a bench player for the duration of his contract, limit it to 3 years, end of story. By the time you realize he isn’t right for your team, you’ll already be able to see the end of his contract. More shorter contracts mean you have more expiring deals which are much easier to deal than guys with 2-3 years left. It also gives you the flexibility to draft and groom a youngster instead of locking down your BACKUP PG slot for 4 years.

As for your statement that “His points won’t fall off”.
- That doesn’t even really matter because points are not the best way to judge the effectiveness of a player.
- His PPG – 6.7, 12, 9.9, 13.1. They fluctuate with the amount of time he plays and the amount of shots he takes (obviously). His stats last year on a poor Indiana team are similar to three seasons ago when he also played 33 mpg on Portland. Anyone can take more shots every game, but that doesn’t mean you’re helping the team. Jarrett Jack cannot help the Raptors by shooting more unless he shoots a higher %. He shoots worse than Calderon, Bosh, Bargnani, but better than Turkoglu…

Scoring is not the be-all or end-all of a guard, and Jack is not a particularly great passer/rebounder either. He is well-rounded but does not excel at anything. His numbers since he entered the league have been rather flat. This is a guy who lost his starting job to Steve Blake of all people. He is an unspectacular player with only a small amount of upside and will never sniff a starting role on a quality playoff team unless he is beside a star ball handling 2-guard. He has a place in the league, and the Raptors do need his skills, but using the majority of your $ to plug one hole when there are many more is very unwise.

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

NEWSFLASH: Turkoglu is NOT a PG!

I’m continually amazed at the comments about not needing a solid backup PG because Turkoglu is now a Raptor. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. I’m sorry, but if Calderon goes down and Turkoglu is starting PG…… we’re f___ed…..if we’re relying on Delfino…..we’re f___ed…..if we’re relying on Ukic….. well…. you get the idea.

A solid backup PG is one of the most important positions on the roster and I for one have my fingers crossed that Indiana doesn’t match. So please….people…. stop using Turkoglu as the reason why NOT to make the smart move and bring in a proven backup PG.

by vulcanoboy on Jul 15, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a PG but he only dribbles the ball for 15 seconds out of the 20 before a shot is put up. This is not to say that you don’t need a quality player as 1/5 of your unit, but your PG is not quite as important if all he does on offense is cross half-court and stand around.

by bigweeze on Jul 15, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Comparing him to failed signings, now?

Banks is widely regarded as a seriously botched signing by Phoenix a few years back.

I do like Jack…. I just wonder about his salary next to his level of play. If he’s a solid backup, is that worth this much?

by feral on Jul 16, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JBen

I am someone who often finds fault in the length and size of contracts, but I see no problem with the potential Jack signing.

I know that the cap amount could drop to 50 million next year, but even then Jack would only be making about 10% of the cap amount. To warrant that, I would argue that you only need to average 24 productive minutes (half a game). I am sure that Jack will get that and likely more between the one and two spot.

by JBen on Jul 15, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Why this team needs someone like J. Jack

1) Summer League has proven that Roko is not ready for any consistent minutes. He still can’t shoot, and is turnover-prone.

2) We need someone on the bench who can get points. Reggie Evans, Antoine Wright, and others are not exactly known for their shooting.

3) We need someone who can play 2-guard when DeRozan and Wright are struggling. You could argue that Douby might be ready for that role, but he seems like more of a pure shooting guard vs. a combo guard.

4) He keeps Bosh happy (in theory), being a former GT teammate.

5) If for whatever reason you decide to blow up the roster, you could trade Jose and still have a starting PG… never a bad thing.

by B.C. on Jul 15, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Raps need Jack

I really think getting Jack would be a coup for the Raps. For one, insurance behind Jose because we saw how bad of a drop-off there was when he wasn’t in the game or wasn’t healthy. He’s also more of a scorer then Jose so could play some 2 beside Calderon in a pinch and still be able to defend the position.

Then the team needs to do some digging to fill the rest of the holes with limited resources. Not a huge Rasho fan but it depends on how much money he’s looking for to some degree. And the team does need another legit big behind Bargs…O’Bryant doesn’t count.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jul 15, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Franchise: I totally agree, I’m not 100% sold on Rasho, but I think we’re limited in what we can do at this point given the salary left over, he was good for us while he was there, but he was aging and couldn’t jump much either. Who else is left that we could sign for the biannual exception (2 mill?)?

by Smoothfan on Jul 15, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

if we can pick up Rasho for the bi-annual, it’s really unlikely that it will turn out to be a BAD deal – low-risk, potentially solid-reward type deal. And as much as I try to convince myself otherwise, two years ago when Bosh went down, Rasho was consistently one of the best Raps on the floor (only went for single digits in points in March and April 4 times!!!).

Prehistoric Hoops - a neat little Raps blog

by boo15749 on Jul 15, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is Joel Anthony a possibility for backup C?

Great defender and shot blocker, far more active than Rasho, and Canadian!

He’s a restricted FA, and I believe,made only the minimum salary last year.

Magloire is actually unrestricted, but seems way past his prime… Anthony still has some upside.

by B.C. on Jul 15, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Magloire

There should be an unwritten rule on this site about mentioning Magloire-to-the-Raptors rumours. Easily the worst All-Star selection in NBA history. Haha.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 15, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A bit off topic...

First off, great job with Raptors HQ and congrats on the new site. I agree with many of the comments that have already been made Jarrett Jack being a good value transaction. I have a question (sorry if it’s already been asked), but is it possible to sign Delfino and then trade them for forward/centre? Thanks and keep up the great work.

by 6264 on Jul 15, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks a lot for the compliments!

I believe it’s possible as it’s constituted as a sign and trade like what happened with Turkoglu

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

JJ and the rest

The reality is that he is basically the 5th best player on the roster (arguably 4th depending on how you feel about Bargnani). 5 mil per year is not bad for a 6th or 7th guy and that is how you have to look at it. The fact he is a guard is immaterial to the argument. The Raptors will have to get creative to get out of their log jam at PG but perhaps BC is working out a sign and trade with Indiana (not sure if you can do that with restricted FA’s) or another deal to send Ukic somewhere he can get some minutes. Banks unfortunately is not going anywhere unless someone takes on his contract to put them over the cap and thus make them eligible for the mid-level et al.

As for Rasho, I know we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel but I think we would be better off signing some guy to the league min. There are plenty of options out there if the Raptors could find a way to get some players to bite on the playing time they might get with us (thin front court and Bosh being an injury risk every year).
Leon Powe – injury risk but still available.
Sean May – another injury risk but might come cheap and is younger than Rasho
Brian Skinner – probably not as useful as rasho but should be cheap.
Chris Mihm – body
Maagloire – definitely a cheap option and could be had for a one year deal
Sheldon Williams – bust but no more so than OBryant
Jason Collins – solid 10th man
Melvin Ely
Theo Ratliff – probably too expensive
Michael Ruffin – showed some signs of life when he was with the wiz a few years ago.

There are others as well but you get the idea. The point is that for a little risk the Raps could add a solid 10th or 11th guy off the bench depth at forward/centre. Maybe not ideal but certainly some of the names are more intriguing to me than Rasho is.

by McGateway on Jul 15, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A sign and trade probably won’t occur unless Indiana can parlay those contracts into another trade because they want to be under the cap. If the Pacers have to just simply take back a similar amount of contract, it doesn’t quite work out for them, so basically we’d have to do a Turkoglu-esque trade again to make it happen.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I realise that Indiana might be unwilling to do a sign and trade unless they will get something out of it but I also cannot believe that BC will make this move unless he felt he could unjam the guard situation. Indiana could get some relief in a sign and trade if Ukic, Obryant and maybe a one year for Graham (or maybe Douby or someone else). Actually that sounds retarded when I look at it.

At the end of the day, I have to believe that BC will has another move in mind and if he doesn’t then I will probably change my position on the Jack signing. I like this deal over the length of it (as both Ukic and Banks will be gone by the end of it) but the immediate impact will be to limit us by having as many as 5 players capable of playing the PG spot with only 2-3 getting minutes. I have not been a fan of BC’s work since he has been here but I just cannot believe he is doing all this willie nillie.

by McGateway on Jul 15, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, to me, Indiana isn’t going to be looking for pieces, but rather, they’d be looking for contract relief in some way, immediately, not a year from now.

And that second part is exactly what I’m saying. Five players to play one position is not an efficient usage of resources.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 15, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand what you are saying and I agree up to the point that if this team is as is going into the season then it is inefficient. I still believe that BC cannot be that stupid though to leave things as they are.

by McGateway on Jul 15, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not too worried about the J.J. contract

While this is a bit more expensive than we were first led to believe, I think this is a justifiable signing. Jack can play backup at the point, but I think he could slide over to the shooting guard spot on occasion too, as he has pretty decent size and athleticism. And he really gets after it on defense.

Although the Raptors apparently have “Bird rights” regarding Carlos Delfino, it is somewhat less likely that we will see him in a Raptor uniform, as a backup big man is the more pressing need. Honestly, I don’t think Rasho is that bad of an option. He’s definitely not flashy, but he’s got some scoring ability and while he’s not exactly Bill Russell, he’s an OK defender who works at it. No, he’s not exactly a rebounding monster, but he’s a credible backup. In any event, I’d much rather have him than O’Bryant. Ah, the folly of leaving college too early…

by Skywalker18 on Jul 15, 2009 5:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Pops and Jamal

What he latest on him and does he fit in the raps plans?, he a good spark of the bench and i think he should be resigned, Any news on Jamal Magloire?

by ChathamRapsFan on Jul 15, 2009 10:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Delfino $$$

I’m just thinking out loud,if the #"s that are being tossed around for Carlos,would Barnes not be a consideration?

by d279 on Jul 16, 2009 6:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’d like to say yes, but Carlos is someone they hold rights for, so they can sign him without using their Mid Level Exemption or Bi Annual. Barnes on the other hand, is a free agent signing so he must be signed with the MLE or BAE.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 16, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jack really only gives them three point guards

Banks’s position is irrelevant; he’s contract flotsam tied to a player who isn’t NBA calibre. Ideally he’ll never wear a uniform outside of practice.

Douby was really brought in as an undersized SG, and I don’t think he’s better than third string at either position on a good team. At any rate, if there’s really a logjam he’s easy to get rid of as his contract isn’t guaranteed.

The team has multiple holes, but I’d rather they get one good player and a couple of minimum value guys than three more Wright/George/Evans level players. I think BC identified who he felt was the best obtainable player who fit any of his needs (backup PG is, at least, the 6th most important guy on the team), and went after him aggressively. It’s a smart move.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Jul 16, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs