Sunday Thought – Can The Raps Snag Ginobili?

The only damage that line-up would do is to the Raps' record; with that team they might challenge for the first pick next year instead of 9th.

If that's the type of deal that's on the table for Bosh I can see why BC would take his chances; Ginobili WAS a very good player, but I doubt he will play more than 60 games in any season from here on out.

Any trade for Bosh has to include young player(s) and/or draft picks; otherwise this team will continue to be mediocre if not downright crappy.

Rob

The only comment I would make is that moving Bosh to the Western Conference is totally irrelevant. It is not like Bosh's character is such that he will go out of his way to light it up against us, or for that matter, be capable of doing so.

Trading Bosh, which I strongly endorse, should be done on the basis of bringing in the best talent available, be it he East, the West, or if there was a Central division, that too. At the same time, we are not close to contending for a championship, so the key component(s) coming back should at least be one player either entering, or in his peak performing years wiht a big upside.

I'd rather have Marion and Bosh than Marion and Ginobli. Besides, Manu is in the Jermaine O Neal class of injury history.

BC should still be pounding Chicago to try to fleece them of Hinrich and Deng. Both are good defenders and the team would be balanced like the Pistons of old, or at least moving toward it. And, we still would have Marion's money to fill holes.
Calderon,
Hinrich,
Deng,
Bargnani,
$ for someone big.

The Spurs idea is not worth it. Ginobli has never been a consistent, top scorer. Playoff killer, but below 20 points in the season.

Gotta agree... a deal for Ginobili wouldn't cut it. If thats the best the Raps can get I would say keep Bosh and try to resign. I'm pretty sure there is much more available than that. Ginobili is a good player.... but his ankles are glass. Add his flopping and complaining to his injuries and you don't exactly get the toughness BC was talking about.

Ineresting read. I wouldn't do that trade tho. Ginobili 3 yrs ago yes, today for Chris Bosh, heck no. I'm sure BC could do better. That line up wouldn't sell tickets or win more games imo.

Please, dear god, NO!!! I agree with the comments that we need youth and upside, not another JO (as much as I love Manu). This would just be a lateral move, and in my opinion would lead to another CB4 situation in 3-4 years except with Bargs, which would crush my soul more than you can imagine. We need to go young, not old, WHEN we trade Bosh. To me, the trade options with Chicago just make too much sense to pass up, plus CB4 would probably consider signing with such a big-market team, which would allow us to get more in return. Personally, I like Deng, not too high on Hinrich and his crappy contract, love Noah, am scared as hell at Ty Thomas' upside/downside potential, and would really like to snag a draft pick or three from them.

Personally, I'd say best case would be Noah and Deng plus draft pick(s), one of which is 16 this year, for Bosh. Plus cap ballast as required.

I agree with all the posters here, Bosh for Ginobli and spare parts is ridiculous. Howland, so far this offseason you have poposed a deal where Bosh goes to NY for David Lee (a far inferior player) and a back up point guard and now this... No offense, but I'm glad you aren't running the raps...

Clearly those who have posted are not super keen on this idea and I can't say that I would be 100% on side either..it is simply a discussion piece. I do think it is interesting to see how people value Bosh and how the opinions differ.

Some suggest letting him walk, others think we can get a boat load back. I for one, based on what history tells us about dealing superstars, don't think the team will get that much more back.

Just a couple of counter points -

Rob - The team as currently constructed is pretty crappy.

Brian - Your first comment really says is all about CB4. Is a guy with that kind of character worth the max he will be demanding and would someone really give-up a "player either entering, or in his peak performing years wiht a big upside"? Seems lopsided in favour of the Raps.

Easemypain - Other than last season Manu has been pretty healthy (70+ games). Besides Heinrich is paid WAY too much, is a bad shooter and Deng has been hurt more than Manu and is not the 20 point guy either.

RaptorsAddict - I agree that there should be something that could be done with Chicago. I am not sure I understand the "getting young" part considering Bosh is 24.

MAS, I just think we view the value of the players differently. I think Bosh is what he is (just look at his stats which have stayed the same the past few seasons) and not worthy of a max contract. I don't think teams are willing to sell the farm for him. We agree to disagree.

Trades I'd like to see:

Bosh and the No.9 to Memphis for Rudy and the No.2 pick.

That way the Raps can also pick up James Harden and have a possible future allstar in Rudy at the 3. Wing positions solved. Memphis has their one two punch for the future with Bosh and Mayo. Not to mention Bosh and Marc Gasol would be an amazing fit playing next to each other.

Or

Bosh and the No.9 pick to GS for Andres Beidren, Anthony Randolph and the No.8 Pick.

We get the toughness, rebounding and shot blocking and Andres, a potentially starting small forward in Anthony Randolph and move up one pick.

Of course I doubt either trade would happen because both GS and Memphis would know that they probably have little change at resigning Bosh long term. Rumours (don't really believe them though) are stating Miami which actually would be able to sign Bosh long term are in talks with Miami. Obviously the main guy coming back would be Beasley.

Sorry I really need to start proof reading. What I meant was "little chance" and "talks with Toronto"

HOWLAND COMON I THOUGHT U WERE SMATER THAN THIS BOSH FOR GINOBLI , THEN WE MIGHT AS WELL AS LET HIM WALK NOT EVEN MICHEAL JORDAN WILL MAKE A MOVE LIKE THAT LOL

Raptors Addict:
I see Hinrich as the player he was supposed to be when he got that money. He can shoot (most seasons) and is a good defender. But Deng, Noah and picks allows for more youth and creativity, so I'm sold.
I'm hopeful that some teams view signing Bosh as the cornerstone to signing someone else substantial. Maybe the Knicks do it to entice Lebron, though they have little to offer the Raps. Miami might be a better call, assuming that we can get Beasley, as they try to convince Wade to sign long term. As for the Bulls, Hinrich and Deng looked to both be taking that step to all stars when injuries hit. Their value is low right now. You probably may not have gotten Deng straight up for Bosh before the injuries.

Bosh is young, but the question is if he will stick around. I think most of us think that he will not. We are fearful of BC doing a Babcock and sticking himself in a position where the franchise is screwed for 3 years before we can even start rebuilding. That was not Babcock's fault - it was from trying to get Vince to stay and then watching him suck around. I don't want to see us stuck with Marion at 9 million for 4 years being a suck because Bosh has left and we are winning 20 games a year. I'd love to keep Bosh, but he does not seem to want to stay. Deng and Hinrich give us 2 starters (undersized at the 2)for a few years. That kicks what Babcock got for Vince.

Another thing,
We need some wings, but if Jordan Hill drops to us at the 9th pick, I would say grab him. Start preparing for Bosh's departure now! If we got Noah, we could focus on the wings, but we have to get the best talent, and Hill seems to have that. Draft Express presents a scenario where it looks possible that Hill drops to 10, with the Raps taking Derozen. If we have Hill, then we spend cash on the wings - and prey.

Ginobili is a great player, but there's a lot of mileage on that odometer. He's the kind of player you trade for if you're close and you need one extra piece to make a serious title run (e.g. for the sake of argument, Denver). The Raptors aren't close to a title.

I'm not averse to seeing what you can get for Bosh via the trade route. For one, I think he may have peaked as a player - a dependable 20/10 guy with shot blocking ability, but not in the Kobe, Lebron or Wade class who singlehandedly makes their team a playoff entrant. Two, I think you can get a good package of picks and prospects for him - Chicago, as someone mentioned, seems like a good fit.

so i was playing with espn trade machine and i came up with 4 possible destination bosh should be traded to:

destination number 1
Bosh to washington for caron butler, nick young and songailia. move matrix to 4 put caron butler at 3 and let demar derozan and nick young fight for the 2 spot.

destination # 2 will be bosh to golden state for Maggette, azubuike and anthony Randolph .

destion # 3 Bosh and marcus banks for noah, slamons and deng

destination # 4 bosh to portalnd for travis outlaw,aldrige,webster and jared bayless

if bryan is willing to deal bosh he should loo at these destination first

Howland, there's 33 wins crappy and then there's 15 wins crappy; with Ginobili I think the team will fall into the latter category of crappiness. Not to mention that had Calderon been completely healthy this team might have had at least 3-5 more wins (if not more).

I can't see the team replacing Bosh with Ginobili and getting better. And this notion that Blair is a starting PF in the NBA is ludicrous because the guy is a bit taller than Jason Kapono. I think a lot of people see him as a Millsap type, but I think his best case scenario is more Craig Smith (a guy who comes in and gives you some rebounding and grit, but plays no more than 20 mins a game).

Seriously though, if BC can't get at least a decent pick, a young bench contributor and an expiring deal for Bosh then he isn't doing his job. Again, look at the Gasol trade; the Griz got mocked as giving him away but still ended up with a good big man in Marc Gasol, a young piece in Crittenton, 1st rd picks in 2008 and 2010 + the expiring deals of Kwame Brown and Aaron Mckie. THIS DEAL WAS CONSIDERED A GIVEAWAY OF PAU!

You're telling me that BC can't get something similar for a more dynamic and younger player in Bosh? Why, because teams are afraid that they might not be able to sign him? If that were true then the only teams that would clear cap space for 2010 are the Knicks, Heat, Lakers, etc. However, every team thinks they have a shot and we need to find one of those teams with which to make a deal.

Rob

I just want to be clear here...the idea was not to say I would do this deal, it was more to create discussion about what Bosh's value is.

One final thing re: deals. It's just reality that Bosh won't re-sign in a place like Memphis, GS, Sacto, Clippers etc. so I think it is fair to remove those destinations from the conversation.

Howland, the question isn't whether Bosh will re-sign with any of those teams; it's whether those teams BELIEVE that they can convince Bosh to stay.

To be completely honest the notion you put forth is nonsense; you might as well have put Toronto on that list as well, along with a few other teams. Using that rationale we should move every good player we ever draft before they go into free agency and so should those teams.

However, that doesn't happen because of the CBA and the fact that your team can re-sign you for a larger sum than anyone else, in addition to the fact that players want to win; and a team that can combine the money with a chance to win will probably be able to retain its star player(s).

When this team was a playoff team on the rise nobody questioned whether Bosh would re-sign and he ended up inking the 3 year extension he is currently on; now that this team seems stuck in mediocrity, OBVIOUSLY there are questions as to whether we can retain Bosh or attract other talented FA's.

The point is that if any of those teams think that they can get Bosh and become a playoff team with a shot, then they will make a play for him and we should listen.

Rob

PS-Howland I'm not even sure why you put G-State on that list of teams we should forget about as destinations for Bosh, when they were the ones that called the Raptors and are still hot for Bosh?

2nd Raps fan - i hope a Bosh deal (if it happens) is nothing like the Pau deal. That was a rip off. Aside from the expiring contracts... memphis got nothing. Marc Gasol - still has a ton to prove. One solid rookie season does not say alot. I'm not trying to knock the guy... but give me 2 more years before we make a call on this one. The Lakers first round picks are bound to be weak at best (low first round picks are not much better than high 2nd round picks), Critten - meh. Again still has a lot to prove and hasn't even proven himself good enough to even be a role player. Regardless I know what you are saying... Bosh should be worth what you mentioned... but comparing that to the Pau deal, they shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

Just as an aside on any potential Chicago deal.... why does everyone get down on hinrich. This guy only lost his starting role because of Rose. He is a solid all around player and an amazing defender. Did nobody watch the job he did on Pierce in the playoffs (add that he is 3in shorter and 20-30 lbs lighter?) He can play the 1 or 2, and has no problems coming off the bench. I know his contract isn't the best... but he would be a great addition to this team. As for his shooting he is right around league average for both fg% and 3pt%... maybe being privileged with Jose's phenomenal shooting has skewed our views of "bad shooting"

Swirsky, that's what I'm saying. The Gasol deal was a sham and so surely the Raps should get more for Bosh.

As for any Chicago deal involving Deng/Hinrich, it still leaves us without a slashing SG/SF who can get to the line because both Deng and Hinrich are both shooters and would be costing the team over 20 million per season.

Rob

Fair enough Howland, agree to disagree. I think for me it really comes down to one's philosophy when trading key talent like Bosh. I would submit that we shouldn't be trading for a player that may simply fit a current need of the current Raptors roster. I agree with you, Ginobli would be a fit for our needs (wing, defense, toughness). However, he's got maybe 2/3 years left of above average play and I think this team actually takes a step backwards overall in the potential and talent departments in that deal. If we do trade Bosh it would have to be a trade that positions the franchise well for the near future and long term. That would be either another young all star, or a package that included youth, talent and cap flexibility. I guess overall its tough for me to envision a trade for Bosh (alread at 24 one of the best players at his position in the league - heading into his prime years, who has a great work ethic and sense of dedication to getting better) where we come out on top. Granted, the argument that Bosh's legitimacy as a max player is questionable at best is sound. However I maintane that it would not be a bad position to be in if Bosh does decide to leave. We have the sign and trade leverage as well as a boatload of cash/cap-space in concievably the best free agent year in NBA history... All that considered, if I were BC, unless I'm presented with an offer I couldn't refuse, I roll the dice and play this thing out. I just don't have the same urgency to trade Bosh as I've seen around these parts recently...

Rob -

I disagree that it is about whether the team "believes" they can re-sign him. No team is going to give up what you think (better than Gasol) on the chance that Bosh will re-sign. Giving up young talent, picks and expiring deals for a rent a Bosh? No dice (or as you put it, nonsense). Teams will only be willing to give up so much for Bosh if he doesn't give some sort of commitment.

If BC wants to move Bosh you're naive to think that the other team would not be looking for some promise that he would re-sign even in light of any CBA rules (which I am aware of). Without it Ginobili, for example, may indeed be the best BC could get.

You can remove GS because that team and franchise is in shambles - which is hard to say as a former GS fan.

Of course BC should listen to all deals but there is a third party to consider and that is Bosh and his agent.

It's interesting that everyone is so down on Manu. The health and age is an issue obviously but I think there are worse options out there. I also don't think if Manu was healthy that this move hurts the Raptors win total very much...but it doesn't exactly improve it either.

Howland, although you make some valid points regarding a team wanting a commitment from Bosh, I don't see Bosh scuttling a deal by saying that he won't sign with a potential trade partner for the Raps.

In terms of being naive, the only thing that would be naive is to say that looking to deal with a team in shambles is a bad thing; just ask Rod Thorn how he picked up Vince Carter.

By your logic Howland, we should only deal with teams like.......well like the Spurs; and teams like the Spurs make the kinds of deals where they come out on top and not the other team because they're NOT in shambles.

I'd love for you to explain your logic as to why GS is not a team to deal with BECAUSE they're in shambles. Aren't those teams MORE likely to give up better players for Bosh than one which is not in disarray???

2nd Raps Fan:
Yeah, Deng and Hinrich does not give you a great slasher, but they are not bad that way. Besides, we still have some money (Marion's) to search out someone else who is a credible, slashing 2 or 3. Don't forget that Hinrich will play some point and will come off the bench as well. Add a slasher swingman, and you've got a Calderon, Hinrich, new Slasher, and Deng as a tight rotation at the 1,2,3. Maybe we can draft one and spend Marion's money on a big to replace Bosh. The big would not have to be a creator like Bosh. Not perfect, but looking better. Sure as hell better than the team is with a deal like the one we got for Carter.

There is a little noise about Bosh to Miami at hoopsworld. Beasley as the key.

Manu would be a great addition. He slashes. He plays SG. He defends. He is gritty. He fits in the the Euroball style. He can play limited minutes at the one (I think he is the PG of SA during the set plays). Unfortunately he is injured semi-regularily (I wouldnt say more than Bosh and his knees) and is older. it is the older part that makes me want to say no to the trade.

It looks like I'm one of the few who would not feel really bad about this trade.

For all those who want to get younger...then why are we even trading bosh. You can't get younger and better than that.

Rob -

Last comments from me on this:

"Howland, although you make some valid points regarding a team wanting a commitment from Bosh, I don't see Bosh scuttling a deal by saying that he won't sign with a potential trade partner for the Raps."

BOSH WOULDN'T KILL THE DEAL, HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY. HOWEVER, HIS OPINION ON THE DESTINATION IS VERY RELEVANT.

I'd love for you to explain your logic as to why GS is not a team to deal with BECAUSE they're in shambles. Aren't those teams MORE likely to give up better players for Bosh than one which is not in disarray???

NOT THE POINT. NO-ONE IS GOING TO GIVE UP WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IF BOSH WON'T COMMIT. NO ONE. IF BOSH WON'T COMMIT TEAMS WON'T GIVE UP THAT MUCH. IF YOU WANT PICKS/YOUNG TALENT/EXPIRING DEALS THEN IT HAS TO BE A TEAM CB4 WOULD BE WILLING TO EXTEND WITH. I FEEL SECURE SAYING GS WOULD NOT BE ONE OF THOSE TEAMS.

GREAT DEBATE TODAY.

Howland, I've gotta tell you that your answer was really a non-answer. Bosh has said that he wants to be a free agent in 2010 because that was his plan, so if you take him at his word then he will commit to NO team. So if, as you say, no team will give up anything if he won't commit then all of this trade talk is pointless; Bosh will want to wait and no one will give up any talent. Why write the article unless you think Bosh is being dishonest and that he will commit to a team like San Antonio.

Rob

"You can remove GS because that team and franchise is in shambles - which is hard to say as a former GS fan."
-Howland June 14, 2009

That's your quote right? What is the logic behind that argument because I simply can't understand it (maybe I should transfer to another lawschool).

WHY ISN'T IT BETTER TO DEAL WITH TEAMS IN "SHAMBLES"???

Aren't those teams more apt to make a mistake and overpay for Bosh or overlook the fact that he might not re-sign?

Rob

Great Banter...

Both sides make sense, depending on who is the particular GM making the decision. The Risky GM, who makes moves and swings for the fences.. Or the Conservative GM..

The risky one will gamble to convince him to stay.. The Conservative will give us hopefully 70 cents on the dollar..

The deal is Miami.. Wade is likely to resign if Bosh is there.. They would have a year together under the belt before it was FA time. Beasley, Cook, Joel Anthony (Canadian Backup C)

Instead of buying a pick, trade for Amir Johnson, who DET wants to move (has a 3 mil and change contract)

Trade Calderon to Portland for Bayless, hopefully #24

Jennings (#9)/Ukic
Bayless/Cook
Beasley/#24 pick
Bargs/Evans/Hump
Amir Johnson/Joel Anthony/Jawai

The thing about the Ginoboli deal is that no matter what players we get, they all are in the final year of their contract. Only Parker and Duncan are signed beyond next year so if things don't work out they can let everyone walk without the loss of face that letting Bosh walk creates. If we extend the deal and shove Banks' contract down their throats and ask for George Hill back we might even be able to get a respectable back up as well. I know it is not ideal but getting more than that for a player everyone in the league will be available next summer at no cost other than money is all you can expect.
The chicago deal requires the Raptors to take on 2 or more long term bad contracts which would kill the franchise more than signing Bosh to the max. At least Bosh would have some value in a future trade I am not sure anyone would want to take on Deng's contract.

Interesting article - but - no way! Lots of good reasons cited by others. People have given up on Bosh too easily.
He's young; he's committed to getting better (see Grange article); he loves To; he's got a great personality; he's growing into leadership; and he wants to win. BC needs to surround him with the right teamates. Calderon will do at point and Bargs will do at the 5. We all know we need slashing swing men who can play defence and a stronger bench. From all of Collangelo's failures so far, that isn't as easy to accomplish as I would have hoped. We've got this summer and next to turn it around. Can't let Bosh walk!? There are lots of teams in the same boat with their star players next year and if Bosh walks we've got the space to offer a max contract to one of the other big names. But Bosh ain't goin' nowhere!

I would obviously prefer for the Raps to get picks and young talent back, but I do think that this deal would help the team in terms of wins/losses this year.

I personally think that a healthy Ginobili is as good as Bosh. Ginobili is on the decline though and Bosh should remain this good for several years though.

Ginobili would fill a void on the team that nobody else currently can. Bargnani can slide into Bosh's role.

A resigned and included Drew Gooden would look decent alongside Bargnani. Include Kurt Thomas and Marcus Banks and that deal is looking better.

Bosh and Banks for Manu, Gooden (S&T) and Kurt Thomas.

Manu and Kurt could even mentor the team for half a year and than be dealt for young talent/picks at the deadline. Who knows, maybe Manu comes to like the city enough that he would come back to play out his career with a young and talented group the following year.

Howland Howland Howland... I love the work you guys do... I really really do... but was the tank empty when you came up with this one? Really? Wow.

I dont see trading a young star like Bosh for an AGING forward and change as a strong move in building a lasting core. There HAS to be better options out there. Dont get me wrong, I love Ginobilli, but not at the sake of a 25 year old stud like Bosh.

Now, should this ludicrous proposal ACTUALLY go down... I promise to print out this blog and eat it... and send you the photos. ;)

Hey just a thought about Hedo opting out and testing the waters of free agencies. Anyone think he would fit the Raptors system if we didn't sigm Marion?

You guys are overvaluing Bosh. Deng and Noah? Never happen. Ask yourself this... what has Bosh accomplished over his career? What has he lead his team to?

Honestly, as a Spurs fan, I rather Trade Ginobili for Bargs than Bosh... God honest truth.

Not to say Bosh isn't a great player, but you have to be reasonable, Bosh isn't a cornerstone, at best, he's a Pau Gasol type talent - with less talent. Pau only ever did anything after joining a Stud like Kobe.

Never the less, as a Spurs fan, I'd also like to say - don't be so quick to write Manu off. You can't teach the intangibles he brings to the court. He's won more games for his squad than any other Spur (Duncan and Parker included).

You want TOUGH, there aren't many who are tougher than Manu... The man is resilient on the basketball floor and relentless when challenged.

There's a reason why Kobe is cited as saying "I respect his game". How many players does Kobe say that about.