Sunday Thought – Does the Bulls Playoff Run Make a Bosh Trade More Likely?

How about Chris Paul and Stoiackovich to Toronto for Calderon, Barngani and parts??? Forget Noah and Thomas.

You could also throw in our pick and spare parts would include Kapono and Banks. It would work salary wise.

I think it was Howland who said last season for Rap fans was akin to being in an emotionally abusive relationship....

... adding Noah and Tyrus Thomas might be akin to being in a physically absusive one.

And, please by no means do I mean to joke about what kind of hell battered men/women have to go through...

I was by chance reading a blog entry on Bullet Forever which is a Wizards blog. And they talked about whether it makes sense economically trading for bosh. Their assumption was that they wouldn't move their big 3(arenas, butler, jameson), and instead trade Blathe and their pick(only if it is not 1st or 2nd overall) for bosh.

I was of course amused at how they even consider that Toronto would give up bosh for somebody not named Griffin or Butler. But instead of who we WANT to get for bosh, maybe based on other blog sites, I really want to know what other team's fans think what is worth give up for bosh. The major knock on bosh (beside not being a franchise player) is that he has only 1 year on his contract. So realistically what kind of players can we get for bosh?

Cannis Major : why do you want Stoiackovich ? he hasn't really impressed as a defender or a clutch player. Moreover, would you go forward with such trade without knowing Bosh would extend?

Franchise - I wonder if this playoff run/experience from Chicago means they have a smaller interest in moving their players. I mean if its not broken why fix it? (I would say losing to world champs in 7 with an inexperienced team is not broken) At the same time they may feel they only need 1 piece to put them over the top.

Cannis - I can't see the Hornets trading away one of the top players in this league (ie. Paul).

JYD - I think one thing all fans are guilty of is overvaluing their own players. Wizs fans see Blatche as a good prospect with alot of potential... therefore making a trade (+ a pick) for Bosh reasonable to them..... but foolish to the rest of the league. As for Bosh's value... it definetely takes a hit with only 1 year on the contract, but I still think there are alot of teams that would like to 1) take a shot at a title 2) have available cap space in 2010. These two keep his value respectable.

I wonder if the best way to get value out of Bosh is going to turn out ot be a SG....

A few points:

JYD, I read that post too and found it interesting that through the whole thing, there was no mention of just HOW such a Bosh acquisition would work considering the blogger was assuming that they would keep their "big 3 pieces." Again, Bosh to Washington makes sense, but only if one or more of their big 3 are coming back.

On the Bulls note, someone else that I neglected to talk about was Mr. Hinrich. How good would he look as a bench option for the Raptors? Yes, his contract is slightly disgusting, but he could back up Jose with ease, could slide over to the 2 easily, and has the grit and defensive intensity this team sorely lacks in the backcourt. The assumption is that he and Deng would be the main cap ballast in a Bosh deal with Noah or Thomas perhaps thrown in as well. And Jenge, that's a solid point - does having a team of "good guys," as this current group does, proclude trading for players who while talented, may offer a lot of headaches as well?

I am not a huge fan of Deng's contract, but I do think his skill set would fit well in Toronto. It seems to me that Noah was a little more valuable to the Bulss during the playoffs than Tyrus, so I think Thomas is the player that the Raps could get with Deng.

I would like to see Bosh, Kapono and Banks for Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Tim Thomas (expiring), Jerome James (expiring) and the #16 pick.

The Raps would probably waive Jerome James and Tim Thomas, but winning next year should not be the goal.

A starting line up of Calderon, (Harden or another young 2), Deng, Tyrus Thomas and Bargnani would look very good to me. Not to mention that the Raptors would have a shot at adding a quality young guy to their bench with the 16th pick (maybe Blair). Hopefully, they would buy a late first as well and get a well priced role player - Psycho T would be my choice.

I was thinking the same thing all game.

And to anyone thinking the Bulls would not break up their team because they were so successful, please look at who they had on the floor for the majority of the 4th. They played small. Really small. Rose, Gordon, Hinrich, Salmons, and Miller/Noah. Thomas barely got a sniff of the court. They need some front court help in a bad way.

If we're playing a more uptempo game I'd go from Thomas. His mid range game has improved (where Noah has no offensive game aside from put backs) and he's a great shot blocker, which we don't really have.

Throw Deng in there (assuming he can stay healthy) and Marion is a good as a sign and trade.

So trading one player who was injured (Deng) and one player who didn't even play during crunch time (Vinny showed his rookie stripes this series) won't really hurt the Bulls team for next year.

This would be a perfect destination for Bosh as he's be the 1b star. Rose is going to blossom into the face of the franchise even if Bosh shoes up. And we all know Bosh needs that kind of help.

I think this is one of BC best trading partners. Hopefully he could dump Banks or Kapono, or both, in the deal, opening many options up for BC in his rebuilding of this team.

If a Raps-Bulls trade includes Tyrus Thomas, then re-signing Marion would seem to make no sense... that being said, a sign-and-trade of Marion could make things even more interesting:

Deng
Thomas
Hinrich
+ scraps

for

Bosh
Marion
Banks

Here's my issue with this: Bargnani is NOT a low-post scorer, and neither is Deng or Thomas, so now the Raptors are even more of a jump-shooting team.

I still like either a Trailblazers or Kings trade better.

Always thought Chicago as one of the two most likely destinations, the Knicks being the other.
Would want the Raptors to walk away from either potential deal deeper and with more draft picks than when they started.

Bulls/Celtics was a great series but remember, this was a depleted Celtics squad.

Tough position for Bulls GM. Such a young, talented squad. If any team should just hold their own and bring the same line-up back next year, might well be these Bulls. So much potential there...

Stoiachovich would just be salary cap equalizer and is probably worth more than banks and kapono combined. He is smart and can pass. The real part of the deal would be for CP3. Hornets might be willing to trade as the franchise is in some financial difficulty. There has already been talk about them rebuilding and this way they get rid of some cap space get a pick and two decent starters in calderon and bargs. CB would resign if we had Paul who is way better than Calderon. You get more points and assists with CP3. If you can then get Marion to sign for 7 to 8 mil per a year you have a really good team.

I'm going to be in the minority here but the thought of Noah, T. Thomas and Deng being the main pieces in a trade for Bosh makes me sick (maybe I’m being over dramatic). Noah and Thomas are fringe players albeit each with some upside, while Deng is overrated with a HUGE contract. Deng had one good year and then his averages have fallen each year. Even during his good year I never saw what everyone else saw in him.

The Raptors would be far worse off with a line up of Bargs, Thomas, Deng, Rookie and Calderon (as someone above suggested). That team would be soft and young and built to lose even more games than this year. Don't mean to be negative but the Bulls are not the ideal trading partners unless Gordon was included. Any trade involving Bosh has to address the SG guard position.

I think Chicago represents our best trade option for a large number of reasons, many of which have been mentioned here. The one thing that I think hasn't been brought up is the potential for Bosh agreeing to an extension with Chicago prior to the trade, thus greatly increasing his value to the Bulls. From a basketball perspective, I can't imagine a better situation for him (as someone said, he would be option 1B to Rose's superstar). Also, I can't recall exactly where I read this, but Chicago is one of the top 3 richest teams in the league with NY and LA. Lakers, not Clippers. So, they should be able to afford going deep into the luxury tax if needed, and right now they're only at 68 million. Plus, if anyone knows that superstars win in this league, it's the Bulls.

As for the deal itself, the group of players who I see as potential candidates or options who could be included: Bosh, Kapono, Banks, Marion via sign and trade, plus whatever filler is needed (Hump, Joey, etc.). From the Bulls, the players who would be of interest would probably include Salmons, Hinrich, Deng, Noah, Thomas, Ben Gordon in sign and trade, their first rounder this year, Jerome James and Tim Thomas as expiring deals. As you can see, Chicago has a lot of different combinations it could offer us because they have what we need and won't have to give up their main piece in Rose.

The most likely scenario I could envision would break down along these lines: In every scenario, we get their first rounder. One of either Deng/Hinrich as the main salary ballast for Bosh. If we get Deng, the Bulls get to choose between giving us Noah or Thomas, whichever they prefer to give up. If we get Hinrich, we get to pick which one of the two we want, and personally, I would have a hard time deciding. I would probably go with Noah just because I think he would love TO the way he loved Florida because it's such a multicultural and awesome city (at least for anyone with half a brain - i.e. not Tracy McGrady), whereas Thomas seems like the kind of guy who you just don't know about and who might turn into a major problem. I guess the Rodman comparisons scare me away just a little bit. Under this scenario, we also should be able to relieve ourselves of one of our bad contracts. Now, I know everyone is dying to get rid of Marcus Banks, and I wouldn't be against such a thing, but I think we'd be better off getting rid of Kapono instead. JK might actually hold some type of value to a team where is role is clearly defined (which is to say 10-12 mins a game). With Rose able to get to the lane at will Kap-1 could really light it up on the open 3's, whereas Banks is just pure salary dump. We might also be able to get rid of the two of them for James and/or Tim Thomas. Either way, there are enough combinations that we should be able to make a deal.

I think BC has to act as if he is in the drivers seat. Even if we don't trade Bosh and he walks in '10, there will be tons of FA's available and we'll have plenty of cap space. With that in mind, I don't think we make any deal that doesn't really look good to us.

I still think GS has the most to offer in return (Biedrins and a wing or two), but the Bulls are definitely on the radar. I agree with Franchise that Captain Kirk should be one of the targets from the Bulls roster. He in under rated, he can pass, score and defend. HE has grit and skill and IQ, and is on a decreasing contract. Deng is a capable wing, but doesn't look likely to fulfill the potential many thought he had. If I had to choose between Thomas and Noah, I would go with Noah. Thomas is lacking in Basketball smarts, that is why he was on the bench. With Bargs on the club, we wouldn't need a scoring big, just a dude to play with energy and pull down boards. We tell Noah he is our starting and all we want him to do is rebound and start the break, we could be looking at a league rebounding leader.

The point is, if Chicago makes an offer we don't like, I hope BC doesn't take it. The Bulls have a lot of parts that could help us out, but none of the pieces coming back would be anywhere near CB4's level. If we don't get decent value, don't do the trade - Especially if we know Andre Blatche is available!!!

With Chris Bosh's place as a great secondary player, most GM's are probably mulling whether they have enough in place to succeed where we have thus far failed. Chicago has the hardest part already, in Derrick Rose.

On the Raptors end, I consider which teams have the kinds of pieces that would facilitate a 3 way trade.

Robert Archibald, I'm hesitant regarding Deng cause of his back woes, to the point where the UK international team had to secure outside insurance for his participation. Heinrich is overpaid for what he brings, but is nice insurance for the backcourt spots as first man off the bench. He's also reputed to have some leadership qualities to boot, hence more marketable to young teams like OK city/Minny.

RaptorsAddict, that's a great point about Kapono having added value to the Bulls with two double-team drawing threats. However, I think Kapono is moveable on his own, as long as we're willing to take on a longer contract of another player who better suits our needs. A CB4 deal would be our ONLY chance to unload Banks until deadline 2011 let's say. Banks has flamed out in too many other places (Celtics, Miami, Suns).
Re: Noah vs. Thomas, Thomas gains restricted FA status @ the same time as Bargs, summer 2010 I think. That is not enough time to figure out whether his still developing talent merits an extension. Noah would be restricted FA summer 2011, which matches the expiry of the Humps, Banks, and Kapono contracts. In any Bosh deal, a player from the 2007 draft class (like Noah) is preferable for exactly this reason.

BC, your right without Bosh there is a void in interior scoring AND drawing free throws. A subsequent trade to address those issues via a third big would be necessary.

Franchise, and Jenge,
Its nowhere near as clear cut as headcase/choirboy. I recall in the BC conference call, there was a reference to needing players that have some "dog" in them, in reference to toughness and tenacity. I'd read a similar quote in an article regarding McGrady and Yao. The speaker, none other then Mr. Malice in the Palace himself, and I think he has a point. You need some "dog" in at least a few of your key players. And if you ask KG, that means more then a little barking to keep potential headcases in line, and the "nice guys" hungry.

Ok sure we need more 'dog'...

..But please ...no rabies...

I would rather have Artest..

Most the posts look at a Bosh trade from the point of view of how the Raps would benefit. When you look at the NBA teams with the point of view of who NEEDS a player like Bosh and might make a play for him (safe to say, all teams would like Bosh, but not all need him), you've got to be thinking Detroit and Boston. This is where I can the action for Bosh coming from.

The "one more piece" theory applies to Miami probably more than Chicago, even though BC loves Deng.This is because they need to resign Wade.
I still see Miami as the most likely partner.

I see Detroit as interested, but having little to offer. Prince is not enough.

While Boston and Detroit would no doubt love Bosh, I just can't see it happening. Acquiring Prince and Hamilton makes no sense for us given where they are at in their careers/contract value per $ and where the Raps are as a team. We need players who aren't on the downside of their careers and who still possess that wonderful substance known as "upside".

From a Wow perspective, the best deal would be Noah and Deng. Even with his injury woes this year Deng rated as a better than average SF - and Noah's production (per minute) actually leads the team.

It would kill two birds with one stone; we get an energetic center who can rebound and play with energy, and a small forward who can create his own shot in crunch time as well as defend the other teams most athletic player.

Thomas is still a project and rates as a below average for power forward. Also I've always thought he was a headcase - and who wants that?

Ben Gordon for all his heroics still doesn't rate better than an average 2 guard, and I've always seen him as shot happy, mediocre at best on defense and egotistical beyond his abilities.

Hinrich rates as almost exactly average for his position - so not bad, but not great either.

The key player to avoid would be Nocioni - he posted the worst Wow score for all of the Bulls.

Here are the scores they had after 60 games (with .100 being avergae for the position);

Noah: .222
Deng: .116 (was .139 in 07/08)
Thomas: .085
Hinirch: .098
Nocioni: -.072

We are wasting our time. The trade will be:

Bosh and Humphries for Beasley, Haslem, and Blount. At the end of the year, Blount and Haslem walk. We only need to have Beasley stay on the books. And he is the talent, if not the player, that will replace Bosh. Haslem gives us some grit. Blount gives us a few points and 6 fouls before leaving.

Your Raptor's forum name is EaseMyPain and you want to bring Beasley to Toronto? Kinda seems like swimming against the current. Doesn't it?

Maybe, deep down, I love my pain. After all, I've been a Toronto sports fan for almost 40 years. It is what I know.

I know that Beasley is supposed to be a head case. But I don't really know that for sure. From what people who know people on the inside say, the head cases are more of a norm than an exception in the league. Talent is needed. If someone can assure me that he is a head case of particular destructive capability, I'm on for this deal. It gives us some talent, some toughness (Haslem) and quick cap room.

personally, I would prefer the Chicago trade if we get Deng and Noah and a pick. I don't like Noah much, but he can run and finish on a break and will try to bang. We don't need him to be much more, but we would need him to be good at that.But he has proven to be a pretty big head case already, hasn't he? As for Deng, he seemed ready to be an all-star before injuries dragged him down and then shut him down. he's a good one to me, but I'm thinking a good 18 and 8, not 25 points a game. All in all, Beasley, has way more potential if he grows up. He has the talent to be a good 25 and 8 guy in this league. If not a team block, we can move him like the previous lazy PF Villaneuva.

Cannis Major - There is no way NO will trade Paul to Toronto fot AB, JC and junk. They need cap relief, not comic relief.

I have to agree with Member29. If we are going to trade Bosh to Chicago, then Gordon has to be involved. If we are going to take on a long term contract (a requirement to sign Gordon) and over pay, then I would rather have Gordon and Noah then Hinrich and/or Deng and Noah. Hinrich and Deng are both grossly over paid and that kind of trade scenario is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid (trading an expiring contract for multiple long term bad deals). Why should we bail out Chicago from their own salary mistakes? If Chicago threw in 5 first round picks then maybe that is different but taking on 2 or more bad deals is just stupid and it would be better for the Raptors to just let Bosh walk. That goes for the Miami trade as well. They do not have anything worth making a move and unless Riley is willing to take Banks and Kapono back (extremely doubtful and I believe impossible for Banks) there is no way I am trading them a championship without more coming back.

The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to not trade Bosh and simply let him walk. The trade scenarios being mentioned scare the crap out of me and I can a lot of Franchise crippling contracts coming back for DB4 without much talent. What this franchise does with Bosh over the next year will go a long way into determining the future of the franchise. Does anyone really believe that adding Deng and Hinrich or Beasley and Haslem will make this team a championship calibre team? If you don't then why are you adding those kind of pieces for Bosh when the best thing to do is take the cap space. Both Cleveland and Portland did the right thing by not trading their expiring contracts away for cap killers. Bad Contracts + Bad length of deals - Franchise PF = Bad team for years to come.

If Toronto is goign to trade Bosh, look for Bc to pull something unexpected. Some ideas: (SAC) Kevin Martin + Jason Thompson + Fransico Garcia for Bosh + Parts (picks maybe included) and I have not looked at money. Would Memphis to a Rudy Gay + Hakim Warrik + Mike Conely for Bosh + parts? It would help both teams. What about PHilly AI for Bosh (wouldnt think philly would want that though with Brand and Dalembart). (ATL) Al horford + marvin williams for bosh (doubt they do this as well, as they got out of the first round but it would give them a prime time scorer to put with johnson and co, and help us with rebounding at PF/C and SF)

Bulls fan here. Great discussing regarding Bosh to Chicago. I have a trade proposals that I'd love feed back on. It is very similar to what many of you have suggested.

Toronto gets to pick from Gordon, Hinrich, or Deng. Plus Tyrus Thomas, Tim Thomas (expiring contract), and one or both of the Bulls first round pick in 2009. For Bosh and either Banks or Kapono. Fillers add needed.

I really don't see the Bulls trading Noah to get Bosh. Having TT and CB4 on the same team seems a bit redundant. I believe Noah and Bosh would be a nice fit together.

Would you rather have the Bulls package, or a trade for Carlos Boozer and change?