Raptors 2008-09 Season Post Mortem – The Grades Part II

BC - I think a D is actually a little generous considering just about every move he made last offseason (and even previous offseasons)blew up in his face. I look at this roster and the rest of the NBA and wonder whether he can actually turn this thing around without killing the Raptors cap or simply staying the course and letting everyone leave and rebuilding through drafts. Unless he can get rid of Kapanks, this team is esentially tying up almost 20 % of it's cap space for 2 more years for guys who deserve about 20 minutes a game (at most) between the two of them. That hurts. I accept the fact the taking on Banks' contract was a neccessary evil to get most of JO's numbers off the books, I still do not accept signing a guy who does not fit into the Raps system to 6 mil + per season. I think Kapono's signing may have been one of the worst moves made by a Raptor GM ever.

Triano - I know a lot of people would like to bring in a name coach but short of someone jumping from the college ranks, I do not see anyone being available that will help this team more in the long run than Triano can. Too many people believe in bringing in retread coaches to be the head coach and I am not sure that is a good idea. Triano gets more than just the respect of his own players but is highly respected outside of Toronto as well (if I recall Team USA brought him in to help them with some things last year before the Olympics, can you say that of many of the available coaches?). I think letting the other assistants go and bringing in some guys who are specialists (Ivaroni for d as an example) might be a step in the right direction. I, for one, am tired of the coaching carrosel on this team and would like to simply ride a coach for more than 3 or 4 years before canning them. One of the things that makes the Jazz and Spurs of the league successful over the long haul is that they have kept their coaches around for a long time and that commitment has rewarded those teams with a lot of success. As long as his players play hard for him, I say let Triano run the show.

We actually had a lot of discussion going back and forth about several topics... Especially with regards to Pops and Voskuhl.

For Colangelo, he did move out from under O'Neal's contract and did bring in some more experimental players towards the end of the year, so I don't think it was a total failure. How quickly he gets out from Marcus Banks's contract will be a determining factor moving forward.

With Triano, I agree about the assistants. I've made it clear that we should probably be saying good bye to Alex English after his years of service because he'll probably want to look for an opportunity where he can eventually become a head coach. It certainly won't be here for a very very long time. But we'll see how Triano decides to assemble his assistants if he gets his extension. I believe that Ivaroni would be a good addition as he's familiar with Bryan's players. I wanted someone to ask about Ivaroni at the conference the other day because I wanted to know just how instrumental he may have been in integrating Shawn Marion.

And I know I've argued with my colleagues about this at length, but I just don't believe in Flip Saunders. I never have, and probably never will. To me, Sam Mitchell learned his craft from Flip Saunders, and Flip hasn't really taken a team to the next level for the majority of his coaching career. But I may be in the minority here :)

I think BC deserved a C actually because really, the team he put together sucked and therefore met expectations. I know some people thought the raps were going to win like 50 games or something but they were on drugs. This was AT BESSSSST with JO a 41 win team, the same as the year before. And I'm still not convinced that if everyone had stayed healthy, that wouldn't have been the record.

I'm just a bit confused as to how this grading system works? Is it based on expectations or on actual play?

If its based on expectations and Bosh gets a C (which makes sense C=average, and bosh did not exceed our expectations), how does Marion get an B? I can't imagine he exceeded anyone expectations, unless they thought he was going to play an extremely small role on this team. Personally, I expected alot more from him (wasn't disappointed with his play, but he only really turned it on for the last few games, with the odd good game and odd disapperance in between). I thought Marion brought to the table the exact things that were required of him. rebounding, defense and moving the ball.

Just wanted to mention:
"sacrifice his own health in the off-season while playing for his National Team" makes sense.... but then shouldn't Bosh be penalized for the same thing? Jose's injury during the Olympics (ankle) was mutually exclusive from his injury during the season (hamstring). If you are going to penalize one player for playing for their national team (and I think that is fair... as I don't really want any Raptors playing national ball) shouldn't any others get the same treatment?

Not really important... just wanted an excuse to post! Good Work this season HQ.

Swirsk - Once again, based on our expectations. For Marion, I wasn't expecting much considering his work in Miami. But I'd say that he works much better in the Raptors system than I was expecting. For me, I thought he was going to hoist a ton of 3-pointers, but he was always active and moving in the offense. I wouldn't say he was $17M worth of expectations, but my own expectations weren't that high.

Interesting point TOrepper. I actually am in agreement with you to a certain extent. I thought the JO group if healthy could net about 45-47 wins but after the preseason, was concerned that they looked more like a .500 club.

http://www.hooplife.ca/raptorshq/viewHQArticle.php?id=521

So in that sense, the club essentially met my early expectations. However there's no denying like McGateway said, that essentially everything BC did in preparation for this season was wrong. Therefore the D and really, couldn't you give Colangelo a D based on his first 3 years here in Toronto?

Tuff to do this type of grading system as everyones expectations are different. For instance id give bosh a d as i expected a lot more from him this year now that he had a legit big in jo beside him. Yes, jo was hurt a lot of the time but for a guy who wants to be paid franchise player dollars, i expected more.

Talking about grades and expectations, I thought you guys were working on a rework of this web site, how is that coming along?

Vicious D - and thats fair. He really didn't do much in Miami. He definetly stepped it up from that level.

Franchise - "couldn't you give Colangelo a D based on his first 3 years here in Toronto?" I have really been thinking about this and our expectations as fans about this team. I for one was excited about what happened during the 06/07 season. It was kind of like Susan Boyle (not sure the name is right.... the Britian has talent lady) In 05/06 this team was a disaster. Nothing was right about that team (except Bosh) and the future seemed grim. Then 06/07 came along (and BCs overhaul of the team) and it was a thing of beauty. I for one got caught up in that 'this team will be a contender in a few years' syndrome. At that time it really did seem that way. Everything clicked, backups were looking like near all-stars, tons of new faces with no NBA experience looked like veterans, and a number 1 pick with a lot of potential.

But I think one thing was over looked.. was there any point in time that the Eastern COnference (and especially the raps division) was as bad as that year? The complete blackness of crapitude that was the eastern conference made the Raps shine. As the conference has improved exponentially from then (3 of the top 4 teams in the league... great improvements by Philly, Atlanta, Chicago, even Charlotte) Throw in a few injuries (Garbo, TJ and Jose this year) to boot...maybe this Raps team is not to far off what the Raps were then (or last year).

Not saying BC made the right moves, he made mistakes and took some gambles, but if I were to look at where this team was pre-BC and then look at them now and give BC a grade I would say a B. If I were to look at a year by year basis and how this team developed, it probably would be more like a D.

One thing BC said during his press conference that did not get a lot of play was "I did a poor job of managing expectations". Maybe this was a shot at fans and media that expected too much from this team, maybe it was a shot at himself for saying this was the best Raptors team he had on paper, maybe it was a shot at both. Regardless, I think this is one of the most accurate statements he made. Maybe we all had too high of hopes for this team in the first place?

I am not sure why people are bashing BC so much for the JO move, I am not sure anybody here believed at the time Bargnani was going to have this kind of season.
JO got injured on his lag because of a bad fault and up to that point he was playing remarkably well in points, rebounds and blocked shots. He never went back playing that way and on top of that Calderon got injured immediately. There is no plan that can be totally fault proof sometimes luck has a big influence on the final outcome and it can make you look smart as easily as making you look like an amateur.

Renato - I've never liked the JO move, and at the time, I've always thought that Raja Bell would have been a better fit for this team. Yes, we got Jermaine O'Neal, and there's no doubt in my mind that he instilled some toughness and work ethic into some people on the Raptors squad. But I was much more comfortable having Rasho for one more year, Bell at the 3 and going into the season like that. In hindsight, I think most people would have rather had that lineup. I was never sold on Moon, and thought that our front court would have been fine with another year.

Would Bargnani still have progressed the way he did? I can't say for sure, but it still would have allowed Bargs to move up in the lineup, and we still would have had a very good backup in Nesterovic, and a contract coming off the books to boot.

I have been a big supporter of BC and still am. However, I must admit that since the great turn around 'division champs' year, BC has made more bad moves than good.

Objectively, even the turn around year was highly tainted. Not only was the division one of the worst ever (and we still didn't make any noise in the playoffs), but BC was loaded with assets that off season. Loads of money came off the books and a #1 overall draft pick? The team had already hit rock bottom, it only could get better.

All that said, I still support BC. Eventhough many of his decisions haven't worked, I thought at the time that they would. I thought turning the TJ disaster into JO was brilliant. I still think Bargnani is a good pick. I never liked the Kapono signing (the whole MLE on the first day?), but even that made sense after the JO trade - I thought Kaps would be mad good (especially after his play vs the Magic).

I just am very curious to see what BC does next, and to then wait and see if it works. No idea if the needs to be blown up or tinkered with.

VD,
I understand your position, but you take it for granted Raja Bell was available at the time and available for the raps. I would have loved seeing JO going for Raja and Boris Diaw but were they available for the raps? and what about Gerald wallace for TJ?
but have these deals ever been available to Toronto? because otherwise it is far too easy playing the blame game comparing wha was done against what we would have liked (not that we cannot have some fun in doing it anyway :) )

Hey guys, this is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while. I thought I'd finally join in on the discussion.

I’d also consider giving Chris Bosh a D grade. Am I the only one who’s fed up with him? Four straight seasons of averaging 22 ppg? Come on. Maybe my expectations for him are too high, but I’d like to see him average at least 25 ppg. If Kevin Durant can do it in his second season, why can’t Bosh do it in his sixth? To me Bosh is like a Josh Howard or Pau Gasol: He’s a great guy to have backing up your franchise guy, but he’s not a franchise guy himself.

As far as the Jermaine O’Neal trade is considered, I didn’t like it from the start. I felt we gave up too much. We gave the Pacers TJ Ford (who had to go), as well as Rasho Nesterovic and another player, and our first round pick in the draft, which the Pacers used to draft Roy Hibbert, and let’s be honest, Hibbert is giving the Pacers a hell of a lot more than what Nathan Jawai is giving the Raptors. Not to mention we took on O’Neal’s $20 million contract, and he’s not worth $20 million.

Swirsky Soldier - I think you hit it right on with your BC quote about expectations, I was going to say the same thing myself.

In addition, the whole "division has never been worse" argument that's been put forth be a few commentors is a very interesting one indeed and probably worth a blog post on its own. If statistically that was indeed a low not only for the division but the conference as a whole, then suddenly things make a lot more sense. This year doesn't become as severe a drop-off either and what happened in conjunction with injuries, trades, etc is that this team as composed was never that great to begin with.

Tomorrow I'm going to be looking at that idea in a manner of speaking actually, but comparing this club to some of the other playoff teams in the East.

Also Swirsk Soldier - solid point about Jose being penalized for playing with the team. I guess in my mind I viewed his participation more of an unecessary health risk than Bosh but you're right, my logic is slightly flawed there.

James - The JO trade is such a tough call. For me, it boils down to what else was out there at the time. If nothing, or if as rumoured, Wallace wouldn't come to Toronto, then you do it again in a flash because TJ had to go. However if there were other options out there...

Finally Renato, it's been taking forever but we promise a new-look site is on the way. We're not going to throw out dates but we promise it will prior to the NBA draft.

Renato - No, I'm talking about the Raja for Ford trade that was available and acknowledged by the Raptors. There was something along the lines of Raja for Ford and the pick, Wallace for a combination of players, and Jermaine O'Neal. I'm not talking about JO for the Bell and Diaw later in the year.

James,

I think you are being too hard on Bosh. I don't think he should be looked down upon for being consistant. 20-10 guys are hard to come by. There were only two others in the league this year (CP3 and Howard) if I'm not mistaken. As for him backing up a "franchise" player, well, there aren't too many people, in my estimation, that he would be considered a second banana to. Kobe, James, Wade, Howard (maybe). What I think we need is a legitimate second scoring option to Bosh. Which, we may have emerging in Bargnani. Time will tell.

I will give Bosh one critisism though. When Carter left the team years ago, Bosh said this was his opportunity to make this his team. I think in order for this to be considered his team, he needs to be a better leader. That is where he has disappointed me. I think maybe that is where you could argue he deserves a D. Leadership. If he wants to be a "franchise" player (I hate that term, but thats a different debate)he needs to be more of a leader. I think that is where the devide between him and some of the other franchise players lies.

Vicious D

I agree with you about Flip Saunders. I mean, there is a reason he was fired, right? Same with Avery Johnson. I think Triano deserves a chance. And if Ivaroni is as good with big men as people seem to think, then I say we make a play for him as an assistant. I know he's been fired as well but maybe he can coax more than 5 boards a game out of Bargnani and help develope Jawai and Bonsu into solid back ups.

Posterized,

I’ve mentioned Chris Bosh’s lack of leadership to you before. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who commands a lot of respect in the locker room. He doesn’t have the same clout that other franchise guys have. Look at Paul Pierce when he was giving his guys hell the other night for a lacklustre performance. That’s leadership.

Not only would Bosh be a second-option to Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, and Dwight Howard (how can you say ‘maybe’ for Howard when he’s destroying Bosh in every facet of the game), but you could include Dirk Nowitzki (and you know how I feel about the German Choker) and Paul Pierce in that list.

It’s great that he’s averaging 22-10, but I don’t think asking him to score 25 ppg is too much, especially considering we haven’t had a consistent scorer on this team in years.

Finally, he’s not a clutch player. How many clutch shots has he made in his career? Aside from that fluke 3 he made the other night, I can’t remember the last time he won a game on a last second shot. Or even made a big shot when his team was struggling. If the Lakers fall into a slump, you can bet Kobe is going to make an incredibly difficult shot to get his guys energized again. I don’t see that from Bosh.

Agree with most but thats a tough D for Jose. Seems like penalizing him for playing hurt for about 3 quarters of the season. When healthy we have a real good PG.Agree his defence sucked but a lingering hamstring injury really shows on the defensive end.
I do agree his national team duties hurt him and hope the Raps tell him to sit this off-season. Being Canadian I can get all hyped for the elite international stars playing for their countries against best. But his priority is to get healthy. Plus it seems like every year Spain plays for something. Next big tournament is the Olympics, rest til then.

Hindsight is great, and I was all for it at the time, but we lost our depth with the O'Neal deal(on a positive, we all know Rasho's back next year).

Grading BC is tough but could possibly give him an F. How many games did this team win? Where did our depth go? Injuries are a factor, but Will Solomon? Marcus Banks? If Marion bolts what exacly did we get for TJ, Rasho, #17, O'Neal, Moon and a 2nd round pick. There's names I can't remember who are gone as well.
That being said am confident he can turn it around.

On the fence with Triano. His record certainly doesn't warrant it. Injuries definately played a factor. Definately helped Bargnani's game.
Last dozen or so games mighta changed my mind about him.
The Canadian in me is routing for him.

Bosh deserves no better than a C. Still our best player but still plenty of room for growth. And this year can't say that I saw any significant growth.
I do not expect his stats increase significant nor do I think they have to for him to be an elite player. If he does remain(another topic) with us he will accept being option 1B to Bargnani's 1A.

Haven't been watching much of the NBA playoffs. Kobe vs Lebron sure seems likely. History TV.

james- paul pierce was only doing that cause it was the playoffs and he had to make sure they won a home game. im sure bosh would do the same if we were in their position right now.

and why does it matter if he scores 3 more points than his average, 22 is good enough especailly for a pf and its the wins that matter, not the stats. We all know bosh isnt a superstar like kobe, lebron, wade etc. but hes pretty damn good and should be back to the raps. i used to support the trade bosh idea but now im 50/50 cause giving up one of the best young talents in the game would be tough, and i now do believe when healthy this team can be playoff material.

bosh not clutch? what about that shot in philly, and that very important off. rebound i believe against chicago that led to a victory. and comparing bosh to a clutch kobe is just retarded. first of all most teams dont rely on their big man to take the last shot, and kobe is probably the best player in the league, of course he can score, but why compare bosh to him if you already mentioned bosh as a second option.

Tea Time, it's true that most teams won't go to their big men in the dying seconds of a game, but in Toronto's case, before Andrea Bargnani's rise, Chris Bosh was the only good player on the team, so he was the only last-second option. Personally, Jose Calderon is my favourite player on the team, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with the ball in his hands with 3 seconds left.

To be honest, I wasn't comparing Bosh to Kobe Bryant. I was simply trying to make a point that I don't believe Bosh is clutch. You could probably use any of the guys I listed to make the point. I just happened to pick Bryant (could be subconscious bias since I'm a Lakers fan).

Clutch - I would say that out of our current squad, Bosh can be clutch, but it's kind of a 60-40 proposition. Bargnani's been more spot on in my opinion, and Calderon shot such a high percentage from the line and was able to make some clutch shots last year when he was healthy. (ie, the Boston win last year). I'd also say Parker can hit a clutch shot, but we all know his free throw percentage is pretty awful in the clutch.

But we don't really have a person that you can leave the ball in the hands of to either draw defenders or create their own shot, which makes things complicated. Bargnani needs a facilitator, and Calderon is better at running set plays. And as a team, the whole team seemed to collapse under the pressure of a close game in the final minutes. Not sure it's a clutch thing so much as a simple psychological factor of not having a steadying veteran hand on the court.

I still think that BC's initial moves when he came here are what is hurting the team now. I mean, I do not believe he intentionally killed us, only that the East was way weaker than anyone thought and our division was a joke. NJ was expected to win the division and Toronto was expected to miss the playoffs. That would have been the ideal situation (raps compete but miss the playoffs and get another draft pick, and he would have been able to let Mitchell walk without any loss of face. Instead, they made the playoffs, lost their pick to Cleveland (which ended up being Jared Dudley but could have been Rudy Fernandez) and had to resign mitchell even though I am sure that BC would have preferred not to (granted, it is not his fault that Grunwald traded a first round pick to get that stiff Murray in the first place but I digress). He did, however, trade Charlie V away for a PG that we ended up not needing (TJ) and drafting the player who will probably be at best, the 2nd best player from his draft class.

Renato - on the JO move. You could say that most people were not expecting this kind of season from AB but shouldn't the GM who drafted him FIRST OVERALL have had some idea that he had this in him? I mean that was why he drafted him wasn't it? I think the point here is that BC has twice now traded away assests to get a player to play a position where another player should have been getting minutes. First, it was TJ Ford, agreed that I don't think anyone expected Calderon to carry the team in his second year, but, I did believe that he showed enough signs that he might be a starter sooner rather than later and it would have been more prudent to get a short term contracted veteran rather than a young prospect with a history of injuries and an attitude problem (I don't think it is a coincidence that TJ has had a run in with players on all three teams he has played for). I can forgive that mistake however, but the JO trade made absolutely no sense at the time as the Raptors were suppose to have had their starting centre already and it would have made more sense to trade TJ for nothing and keep the pick than trading a pick and an expring contract for a broken down 20 million dollar player who no one else in the league (other than a senile Pat Riley) wanted especially since the guy you drafted FIRST OVERALL instead of Brandon Roy, is suppose to be your centre. Maybe, I am just crazy but, it seems to me like a GM should know what his FIRST OVERALL pick is capable of (if I could use bold and italics and colour for the FIRST OVERALL pick thing I would).
Now, BC did find an idiot, I mean another team, to take JO but we had to take back another bad contract (in Banks) and give up another 1st round pick to get rid of him. So, in essence, trading away Charlie V and Matt Bonner ended up not only costing us those players, but a future first round draft pick, a 2008 first round draft pick, and taking on Marcus Banks bad contract so we could have 17 million in cap space which we will probably use to sign Brent Barry to a max deal (ok I am being silly now but when you think about it, would it really suprise you?). I think BC deserves a Z, can you get a Z? If so, BC definitely deserves one.

Morning folks – some great discussion here so thought I’d leave the post I was preparing for today until Saturday. We’ve got our end-of-the-year awards post up tomorrow.

McGateway – I think there’s a really good point that you bring up here. Part of the flaws with this club revolve around Andrea Bargnani. Two years ago BC assumed he was ready so he didn’t look to shore up the front-court. Then prior to last season, it looks now like he thought Bargs was going to be a bench player all season, so made the move for JO. This lack of foresight is primarily what has the Raptors in the situation they’re in right now. I can understand BC not being able to forecast what happened in Andrea’s second season, (he was hurt, had the sinus issues, and didn’t do enough in the off-season etc), but he talked so glowingly about Bargs’ future, even at the end of last season, that the JO move sort of surprised me. GM’s don’t have ESP but the best in the business make successful proactive moves instead of reactionary moves. Colangelo has now been purely on the reactionary side the past while:

-Bargs is the future 5, we’re fine up front.
-Oh, we’re getting killed up front, Bosh needs better help, we’ll trade for O’Neal as Bargs isn’t ready.
-Wait, Bargs is ready and O’Neal-Bosh isn’t working, we’ll move JO for Marion and Marcus Banks.

As you can see, with reactionary moves, you end up taking on "necessary evils" because you’re not negotiating from a position of strength. In the last case, even though Marion looks like a better fit than O’Neal, the contract of Marcus Banks could be a huge burden to improving this roster going forward.

Hopefully BC can break free from this reactionary cycle this summer.

If Bargs is our future 5 and Bosh is our 4 why are we still weak up front? Does anyone see aproblem here. Fact is neither one is a strong defender.

It is totally unfair to give Bosh a C. That's rediculous. Bosh is one of 3 players in the entire NBA that average 20s and 10. It is very hard to improve on those stats as a PF in this league and he has done it 3 years in a row. Bosh's grade should at least be the same as last year. I think you guys are way too hard on the players with your grading in my book Bosh is a BIG PHAT "A" come on HQ I expected better. Its very hard to bring it every night on a team that is constantly on a losing streak and Bosh with all his off court drama, brought it every night......Raps4Life.

I am really nervous about the up coming draft. Lets face it, the Raptor draft history is extremely checkered, especially outside of the Lottery. I could pump out 30 pages of bad decisions in the 2nd round alone but I thought I would highlight some of the worst moments in raptor draft history.

My all time favourite draft - the 99.
5th pick - Jonathon Bender - Massive bust. The only good news is that Toronto traded him to Indiana for Antonio Davis. Bad news, that didn't exactly end well either.
10th Pick - Alexksander Rudojevic - I don't think they invented a term for how much of a bust he was.
After
5 future allstars
6 - Wally Szczerbiak
7 - Richard Hamilton
9 - Shawn Marion
16 - Ron Artest
24 - Andrei Kirilenko
Others in the 1st round we could have drafted
8 - Andre Miller
10 - Jason Terry
13 - Corey Maggette
18 - James Posey
21 - Jeff Foster
22 - Kenny Thomas
23 - Devean George
25 - Tim Thomas
2nd Round - #40 traded to Dallas, ended up being Gordan Giricek (384 games in the NBA, 29 playoff games played).
Drafted After
41 - fransico Elson
47 - Todd MacCulloch
57 - Some guy named Manu Ginoboli (whoever he is).
Undrafted
Raja Bell, Chris Anderson.
2001 Draft
1st round
17 - Michael Bradley (what a star)
After
18 - Jason Collins (not a star but had a longer career than Bradley)
19 - Zach Randolph
20 - Brendan Heywood
25 - Gerald Wallace
26 - Samuel Dalembert
27 - Jamaal Tinsley
28 - Tony Parker
2nd Round
Continuing from the first round, these are guys we could have drafted instead of Bradley
31 - Gilbert Arenas
35 - Brian Scalabrine
38 - Mehmet Okur
40 - Earl Watson
42 - Bobby Simmons
47 - Our pick traded to Nuggets Ousmane Cisse (I think that is French for do not draft)
nothing of note drafted after our pick but a few players who went undrafted
Carlos Arroyo, Charlie Bell, Maurice Evans and Jamario Moon.
As I said I could go on but I will do one more just because this one still p***es me off.
2002 - #20 Kareem Rush (314 gp, 31 playoff gp, I think that is more then the entire raptors organisation has played) traded to Lakers for Chris Jeffries (72 gp).
Players drafte in the 1st round after Rush
23 - Tayshaun Prince
24 - Nenad Kristic
26 - John Salmons
2nd Round
Players drafted between Jeffries and our 2nd round pick
30 Roger Mason (this really burns because he was signed by the Raptors at one point and they let him go).
33 - Dan Gadzuric
34 - Carlos Boozer
41 - Ronald Murray
42 - Toronto's pick sent Portland via Chicago
some nobody (Jason Jennings)
After
43 - Eventual part time Raptor Lonny Baxter
45 - Matt Barnes
49 - Darius Songaila
52 - Rasual Butler
55 - Luis Scola
Not Drafted
Devin Brown
Reggie Evans
Udonis Haslem
Jannero Pargo
You get the point. As bad as the Araujo pick was the 99 pick was worse as at least Araujo played some games in the NBA.

McGateway... take it easy.

You could do the same thing with every team in the league no matter how good they are now.

And BC didn't pick those drafts. He may be spotty in the second round... but he has a good lottery track record.

Relax about the past...

I'll admit, there is worry in this draft... but the past has nothing to do with the present... except for influencing where we draft... not who we pick.

I realise that every team in the league can make similar claims about their draft but I am not a fan of those teams and I merely wanted to point out that the Raptors have not had a good history (especially outside of the lottery). The 2nd round may be one of the worst I think I have seen as the Raptors have never drafted a player worth mentioning (not including Ukic as we do not know how long his career will be) and in 14 drafts that is not good.
I also realise that BC is not responsible for all those drafts but his own draft record since coming here has been questionable (see PJ Tucker and Nathan Jawai to start with). As this team is needs to hit a homerun this year with the draft (and I mean draft someone who will be more than just a deep bench guy), I am just not sure that I trust BC enough to do it.

There is some good news as Stephen Curry announced today that he is hitting the NBA and he is projected to go somewhere in the late lottery (7th - 14). I realise that he plays a position we already have a starter in but I have seen him play (one of the few college players I have seen play) and he looked pretty good to me.

"Our pick traded to Nuggets Ousmane Cisse (I think that is French for do not draft)"

LOL LOL!!!!!

McGateway - Love the breakdown. While it's true that hindsight, inparticular with the draft, is 20-20, there have been some baffling decisions made by Raptors' management. I actually can't fault Grunwald as every GM, no matter how "brilliant," blows one or two drafts (see Dumars and Darko.) For me, Grunwald's two strikes were Radojevic and Bradley (who actually would be a decent bench guy in this "undersized PF" league now in my opinion.)

Injuries really took their toll on both of these guys as well so I'm not going to be too harsh there, especially when Grunwald plucked a few gems out like Mo Pete.

And the Chris Jeffries pick I'm not really upset about considering the club moved Rush looking to upgrade at various spots with veterans, something they sorely needed at the time. Plus, if you've seen RaptorsTV's "Behind the Draft" for that year, Grunwald actually wanted Tayshaun but Detroit grabbed him first.

What does boggle my mind are the decisions in the draft since then. Outside of Bosh and Bargs, has there been a single solid pick? CV Smooth would be the closest but was moved of course after year one.

How many other teams are disappointed they missed certain players and took others instead? Its not fair to say the Raptors have missed all these guys... Sometimes players are overlooked because a team wants a certain position, sometimes to trade etc. Its always easy looking back... never easy when you need to make the choice. The only thing I think its fair to complain about is players who were become a waste (ie. Araujo).

Also, in missing Brandon Roy, its not like he was exactly the talk of the town (pre-draft). All that was discussed was how weak that draft class was... and everyone (I mean every team) was looking at AB. I don't think anyone was expecting Roy to become that good that quick. Sometimes players like him just fit (ala. Vince Carter)

The draft is always a gamble... I don't care what team you are. Picking high tends to me more choice, but makes you look worse if your player doesn't turn out. Drafting low means less choice, but looking like a pimp if it does.

Oh yeah : "The only good news is that Toronto traded him (Bender) to Indiana for Antonio Davis. Bad news, that didn't exactly end well either.
- Umm only one of the best big men we have ever had ? Only true leader this team has ever had? One of the best defenders and rebounders this team has had? All-Star with the Raps? Helped us to the playoffs 3 times... and the 2nd round (deepest Raps have ever been) only to lose in game 7? Told the fans we will make the playoffs and then Raps go 12 for 13 and get in? Yeah he didn't pan out at all....

Swirsk - Well said, AD deserves some love, Maybe we all get too used to bitching after a season like this.

McGateway, I can't believe you overlooked Jimmy King?

Franchise, yes Bosh was a solid pick, but it’s still another example of a draft we blew as a much better player was available that we passed up.

Zona,

The Raptors passed on D-Wade because they already had an all-star shooting guard in Vince Carter. Bosh was coming into the NBA as an all-star potetial power forward. The reasoning for choosing Bosh was sound. The Raps could have had a deadly one two punch. However, as it happens so often in Raptorland, things just didn't work out.

Posterized, although it's hard to criticise Bosh's selection, the fact remains that he wasn’t the best player at that position.

There were many of us drooling at the thought of drafting DWade after his performance at the tournament that year. And, as the saying goes, you draft the best available player, not for need.

Was Bosh considered the best player at #4 at that time? Perhaps by you. Perhaps by others. But I think the discussion people are having is about what better players, with the benefit of hindsight, were available at that time and therefore highlighting our GM’s lack of foresight.

I think it’s only fair we throw Bosh up there as another example of a great miss for this franchise.

Could you imagine us today on DWade's back? It’s a depressing thought which is kept in the deep dark corners of my mind along with AI and Granger.

As the playoffs progress, its worth taking a different look at what our needs are. I'd take it that a consensus around here is that we want a legit conference contender as a midterm goal. What kind of matchups do you need to deal with to get that far in the East?

If we were the 8 seed this year, who defends Lebron, and more importantly, who else on the team is in a position to help and still recover to their man.

If we were the 7 seed, who steps up when KG neutralizes Bosh?

At the 6 spot, who are the two big wings that take a turn defending R.Lewis and Turkuglu?

In the fifth spot, can you import enough athleticism at important positions to not make it the deciding factor in a series?

You can't build a team with the ignorance that your style of game played to perfection will conquer all. You also can't assume perfect health, and take your ball home at the first sight of injuries.

If there's a theme I'm looking for this offseason, its adding some redundancy to the rotation. Following Jose's hamstring woes, AParks health was the only thing standing in the way of truly atrocious basketball. JO leaves, and no one steps up with a combination of skill and sandpaper. Two bench players capable of taking on larger roles when needed, that's the minimum we need to leave the offseason with. According to Doug Smith, Delfino and Nesterovic are in the mix. Not world beaters, but they enable us to not depend on the draft to fill a role.

The Draft,
1) Either trade for a second top 20 pick, or save the money for another year. A pick in the high-teens (IMHO) is the sweet spot where you get to choose between potential and NBA readiness, in this particular draft. You're just waiting to see who drops.

2)Pre-arrange deals packaging the second first rounder with Hump. If no one appealing drops, we could draft for someone else. Hump is the only non-core player we have under contract that wouldn't be viewed as dead weight by other teams. The potential scenarios for what comes back are endless, just don't expect a major asset in return.

I'll probably re-post this.

I have been looking at free-agents for 2010; in an attempt to stay ahead of the curve.

Some interesting names popped up:

Bonner, Miller, Outlaw and Nash are all un-restricted.

Bell, Mason Jr, Stackhouse, Blake and Ginobili are available too - but I think the four listed above are real targets.

Food for thought!

Question: Do we try to sign a Ben Gordon this offseason?

Yardly - its tough to build a team by planning to match up with every other team in the league (or even the same conferences playoff teams). A teams best bet is to try to create their own mismatches and make the opponents play to them. When you try to start following your opponents lead (whether its play style or players) you are bound to loose. I will say you are right about not being able to play to perfection every night and relying on no injuries. Upgrades do need to be made, if at the very least to the bench.

Jenge - I gotta be honest, personally there aren't too many on that list I like (Nash and Ginoblli excluded, and Blake only as a backup pg... and even Nash I would see as our back up - purely because of age though). The rest I would only want to see here cheap and coming of the bench.

Although I will say I would love to see the Red Rocket in a Raps uni again.

Ben Gordon is one of those players I find can kill you as easily as he can win it for you. He is an undersized sg who likes to shoot... and shoot alot. He is damn strong for his size and can really turn it on in the 4th quarter, but he will always be a risky player in my books..... and throw in some suspect defense to boot.

Thanks for the comment.

I just think its good to be aware about future FA's.

Does it hurt to be a couple of steps ahead?

It's crazy how everyone becomes a draft expert 3 and 4 years after a draft has been completed. No offense guys, but most of you are talking out of your collective ass. You guys aren't scouts and you don't have the info that most of these teams have; and most importantly, the draft is a crap shoot of sorts. You don't really know what you have until a few years down the road.

Making up lists is an exercise in futility for the point that has already been made: every team can be made to look incompetent on the talent they've passed up. When Bosh got drafted, everyone (including VC) was camoring to trade him; and in our first draft the consensus pick was Ed O'Bannon, and the fans ooed when Damon was picked (how did that work out?); why?

Because people only want to see the players that get hyped up in the media. That's why you hear a lot about how we should move up and pick Griffin, or trade down to take Curry. We all fall for this. We get hyped about the hype because we don't have all the information and need to rely on what's given to us via the web and sportscenter.

I like second guessing as much as the next guy, but going back in history to look at the players we missed on is inane and proves nothing.

Rob

Jenge: I don't think it hurts to be ahead of the curve at all. The 2010 free agent class has influenced many a move in the NBA, heck the Knicks are betting their future on it.

re: Ben Gordon, the problem is that he seeks a starter's wages (10 million +) when he's best suited to a sixth man's role. I think there is only a niche market in the NBA for his particular skillset at that size.

SwirskySoldier,
You can't let matchups dictate how you build a team from the ground up, agreed. However, there are times when the road to the NBA finals will always go through a certain team or set of teams ie Lakers in the West. There are also times when the teams ahead of you all have the same strength, ie a slashing pg like the Bull's D-Rose, or Net's Devin Harris. Taking that into account when making roster decisions can only help. Ex. a defense first backup pg that plays increased minutes against teams with a great slashing pg, enabling the starter to stay fresh and play more energetic defense. If we want to put a proactive on it, let's say we need a team with the capacity to play different styles on both offense or defense. When your core players are well-rounded, this is less of an issue (Lakers, Spurs, Celtics for ex.). IMHO our road runs through help defense, and the ability to make offense for defense substitutions. The third big and the backup pg role are going to be key to offsetting the weaknesses of Calderon on defense, and Bargnani on the boards.

IMHO this means we've got to hold out on committing long-term to those positions until we get the right fit.

believe me I didn't forget Jimmy King but i couldnt list every draft as that would have been too long.

The point I was making about Davis was that he demanded a trade because he didn't want his kids to learn the metric system. I was happy that they made the playoffs three years in a row but one 2nd round appearance is hardly a great team. This team has to be good for years before we can say that they have been successful.

As for people saying that you can say every team has good and bad drafts, although that is true, some teams continually draft good players late in drafts (San Antonio and Utah are prime examples of this). Toronto cannot seem to draft a decent player after the 7th pick (Mo Pete being the exception).