Tip In, Toronto Raptors' Post Game: Drive

I agree about Graham. I like the kid but his consitency is wanting and he might be better served going to either a very bad team or Europe for a year a two (places where he can get minutes instead of the string of in and out of lineups).
I think this shows that if the Raptors don't constantly try to feed DB4 the ball all the time and instead play offense as a team, they are much better served. It will still be important to feed Bosh the ball but I think the problem with this team is they have been trying to play a half court game without the players they need to play that game. A more free flowing offense starting at the point, will provide them with a better chance to win then the constant pick and rolls we have seen this team try to execute constantly.

I think there should be a rule about wearing retro jerseys; The two teams must wear retro - or none.

It looks stupid seeing one team out there in 80's style and the other in modern garb. And if they're really going retro - they need to shorten the shorts up Stockton style ;)

Bargs will be the leading scorer on this team next year.

I for one was totally unimpressed with last night and feel like this team again is lacking direction.

Up 20 there is no way that the starters should have been in the game, even when the Bucks made their run.

This was the perfect opportunity for Triano to put the young guys in the game (maybe not Douby as he doesn't know what the systems are yet...) and let them sink or swim. If we lose what is the harm? If we win is there really upside? Had Triano allowed his younger guys like Roko, Jawai, O'Bryant, etc. to play they would have gained invaluable experience win or lose.

Not sure I see the benefits of ensuring the team secures a W with our starters this late in the season.

McGateway: A contract option on Rasho was picked up at the same time as Moon's just a couple of months before the Pacer trade.

I posted the tale of the tape on BC's recent 3 year anniversary of being named President and GM of your beloved Raps (Feb 28, 2006). To be honest I'm not sure if anything was covered here at the HQ on that anniversary as I haven't had a chance to follow the blog as much, and as well there's only so much "I hate the Raps, I love the Raps, we should trade for LeBron or Kobe" that I can take, but that's another story.

I think 3 years is the minimum before you can really evaluate a GM. Even 3 years later this team still has Babcocks finger prints all over it.

Let's go back to 05/06 season. The Raps were 27-55, starting lineup: Bosh, Mo Pete, Arujo, Villanueva, and Mike James. Aside from Bosh and James, everyone was swinging thru the starting line up including Eric Williams (11), Pape Sow (25), Matt Bonner (6), Calderon (11) and even Loren Woods (4). In fact, the only person who didn't get a start that year was Darrick Martin. Saying things were bad is an understatement. Aside from Bosh and maybe Charlie V, there was NO future. Hoffa was obviously a mistake, James was not going to be the PG of the future, and no one knew what JC was capable of. If you remember, he couldn't hit an 18 footer if the hoop was made twice as big. Calderon was averaging 5.5 points, 4.3 assists, shooting 42% and averaging 0.1 treys per game (wow I forgot how bad it really was, 1 in every 10 games). There was talk of bringing in Ukic for the next season.

No Guard, No Center, No Future.

Back to work for me... More later.

Oh and I have to add 05/06 included the big fat giant Jalen Rose contract and the infamous 81 point Kobe game.

Continuing on BC's analysis, I think we have to understand the context of Rap History. Here's my quick off the top of head list of best/worst transactions, yes very subjective, and not necessarily meant to be ranked in my order but I think is fairly accurate:

Best Drafts:
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
Damon Stoudimere
Marcus Camby
Andrea Bargnani

Worst Drafts:
Hoffa Araujo
Alec Radojevic
Michael Bradley
Joey Graham
Any 2nd Round Pick (as Ukic maybe the first 2nd rounder to stick on the team)

Best Trades:
Jonathan Bender for Antonio Davis
Camby for Oakley
Trading Kevin Willis
Kenny Anderson, Zan Tabak, Popeye Jones for Dee Brown, Chauncey Billups,
Getting rid of Jalen’s Contract

Worst Trades:
VC for Williamses, Mourning, and Draft Picks
Doug Christie for Corliss Williamson

Best FA Signings:
Jose Calderon
Anthony Parker
Jorge Garbojosa
Jamario Moon

Worst FA Signings:
Mark Jackson to a 4-year deal
Hakeem Olajuwon (again for the length of the deal)

Top Three Coaches:
Sam Mitchell (156-189, COY, Playoffs, 3-8, Div Title)
Lenny Wilkens (113-133, PO 8-9)
Butch Carter (73-92, PO 0-3)

Worst Coaching hires:
Darrell Walker (41-90)
Kevin O’Neill (33-49)

Howland - I'm cool with the starters getting some burn against a team that has something to play for an is fighting for the win.

Last night showed signs that our main pieces could play together - which I think is a much more valuable experience than anything jawai or pob are likely to experience. (Unless one of em was bitten by a radioactive insect, drastically changing the course of human events - which is just as likely to occur on the bench.)

During shoot around at half I kept my eye on pob - that guy has a lazy air about him. I know that has been discussed to death, but if I was JT, I wouldn't play guy guy until he pretended to want to.

GSW wins the lottery = "we should have tanked in '09" resonating for years (urgh). Basketball gods; please help us!

I was dumbfounded regarding last night's game as well.

I missed the first half but in the second, why was I not seeing extra minutes for the likes of Jawai and O'Bryant? Jawai got about 30 seconds, O'Bryant didn't play at all, and Roko played LESS THAN VOSKUHL!

On top of this, even with the starters back in, the Bucks were draining 3's and what was a blowout suddenly became a six point game with just under a minute left!

So my recap really would have gone like this:

-Raps win despite giving up a huge fourth quarter lead and needing to lose for lottery's sake, not to mention deciding in a playoff-less season, not to give their prospects the run they need.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with my colleagues. I don't believe we know enough about our regular rotation right now, especially with regards to chemistry, that we can put them on the shelf right now. I think seeing how a healthy Calderon performs with this group is more important right now as I think Ukic is going to need extensive work this summer and has already had a wealth of experience in late game situations already.

The good thing I saw from Ukic yesterday was that he was much tighter coming off a Voskuhl screen that I've seen in the past.

ok, I'm still watching these games. It would be nice to know how hurt Jose has been all season. Anyway, moving into next year I have a couple thoughts.

1. Would you trade Bargnani for Dirk?
2. Bosh...I looked at the Olympic roster today to find out about if a USA roster spot = a playoff birth. I could only find Bosh and Redd. Redd is not worth the money he's making.
3. Should we trade our pick unless we can get Ricky and have Jose groom him?
4. We need a veteran point guard to back up Jose. Any thoughts on who is out there?

Peace.

I have said it before and I will say it again, tanking is not an option. This team will not improve itself enough (in the draft pecking order) to make tanking worthwhile. If they were going to tank, they should have done it back in January. I agree with D, getting the rotation players moving in the correct direction is more important than trying to get a solid draft position. Basketball is not like hockey where you need a top 5 pick to have a reasonable chance of getting an impact player (remember, hockey has a much smaller pool of players to draft from) as we have seen teams draft solid players in the 6-10 spot (where the Raps are likely to fall) before. With so many teams fighting for a playoff spot in the east and only GS being within striking distance in the west, the most we could move up in the draft realisticaly is one spot and it is not worth destroying a chance to build some momentum towards next year to draft 7th instead of 8th. I have a feeling that OBryant was never in the teams long range plans and they are using him more for his cap number than anything else (he is only guarnteed 500k next season) and if had worked out then that would have been gravy. True Solomon came off the books this year but it was still worth a shot at seeing if Obryant had what it took and you still might see him down the line if he can improve his attitude. The other kids will get playing time in garbage time which is when they should get it as this team has had an absolutely horrible year and could really use this opportunity to see if the current roster can be salvaged or not.

It was pretty sweet game to be at last night. I’ve been rather lucky with the Raptors winning games that I have been at this year, and being at pretty cool games even if they did loose: Spurs game (Roko FTW!), Pacers game a few Sundays ago (front court Domination!), Bucks game (Jo Bobble head and ejection!) and last night (Free Tickets!). Naturally I have also been to about 5 or 6 sickening losses that made me want to puke - but still a favourable ratio given the overall team performance this year.

A good thing was that neither Bosh, Bargs, Marion nor Calderon significantly outperformed their capabilities: If these guys are around next year and healthy, then they can likely be counted on to chip in with those performances with regularity.

Obviously you can’t just expect bosh to average 14 Boards and 5 assists, each game. However, a lessened offensive burden should allow him to expend more energy defensively, on rebounding, and even feeling more comfortable with and getting better at feeding his teammates. Also, allowing the offense to come to him, and forcing it less will make his offensive contributions more and more efficient. I mean, the guy already converts from the field and from the line at an efficient clip. But given his age he has room for improvement, and if we can add some complementary pieces around him, this can facilitate the process.

A couple plays really caught my attention: One was the one timed bullet pass from Bargs at the 3 pt line to Bosh cutting through the lane. It was instantaneous, and something I think we’ll see more of as they develop greater chemistry together, as well as grow individually as basketball players. Further, how many teams have a front court that can do that? How many have a front court that is as talented and as young??

The other play I really liked was where Marion took the ball up in transition and found Kapono for a three. It is great to have a guy with such great awareness, playing conistantly with such aggression. Put me in the camp that is cool with Marion coming back.

That play also highlights that Kapono was finally shooting well last night. Like the others, his contribution was not significantly better than you would expect from the guy (or would have expected before he sucked so bad this year). Obviously at his contract Kapono’s contribution comes at a premium. But if we’re going to play an up-tempo style, and add to our wing and guard depth, having Kapono come out and sharp shoot for minimal minutes is not a bad way to burn some possessions. > There are not many better ways to end a possession in the NBA than with a open Kapono three. However there are certainly harder looks for the opponent to prevent. (However, he is a sieve on D, and the other coach is not doing his job if he doesn’t ensure his team exploits that weakness.)

Good point about Caldron’s potential with more athletic wings: Could be awesome. Especially with them pushing the ball up court, opening up Calderon for threes in transition.

Also, interesting point about Joey. Marion and Graham are very similar, each can play the 3 and 4, but Marion is just better. And having Pops at the four also mitigates the Marginal Benefit that Graham would add to the roster. Obviously all things considered he’s not a bad guy to have around, but given that we are likely to be right up against the cap next year, and that it is likely to fall the following year,

I def agree that the direction of this team is becoming more clear.

Bosh and Bargs have the potential to play very well together, ESPECIALLY on offense: on defence they are less of a lock, but are both young and can hopefully improve as they develop that veteran know how. > Plus Bosh does not appear to be playing with much passion, his defensive contribution should be elevated when he is genuinely motivated, and not just going through the motions and protecting his season averages.

Hopefully Bosh will want to stay. That is the one outcome on which all further decisions depend. The crowd treated him well and was supportive. Hopefully he can just come out, play basketball, enjoy himself and recognize that we can pay him more than anyone else.

Further, the crowd was pretty bumpin last night, and my buddy made the point > there can’t be many teams in the league that have such a turn out for the home team being so far out of the playoffs, and the away team being the Bucks. Nice stable revenue stream MLSE > any ownership stakes go up for sale let me know, k?

P.S. I have decided to never speculate about anyone’s personal life on a public forum. Granger’s pieces really shed some light on the situation, as well as once again demonstrating how much of a hack-job Feschunk is. (Though I will say that taking limited information and trying to extrapolate a plausible scenario is entertaining.)

I think Jose and Roko are solid at the point and we should be looking to add depth in other departments. PG, in my mind, is locked for a few years and is stellar - once Roko improves his D.

Usation, - If I remember correctly (and I may not) rasho picked up the option as it was a player option (there was talk last season that the Raptors had tried talking him into not renewing and resigning at a lower number).
2ndly - I believe Babcock was GM when Kobe scored the 81 (in fact if I recall, this was the final nail in his coffin as Smitch basically threw him under the bus by the way he coached the game) and Wayne Embry made the Rose trade (albeit, probably at the behest of BC).

TDC- Trading Bargnani straight up for Dirk wouldn't work due to their salary structures but in a hypothetical I wouldn't do it simply because Bargnani is so much younger than Dirk and I don't think he has hit his ceiling. I think AB is already a better defender than Dirk although Dirk is obviously a much better offensive option.

I'm in agreeance with viscious D and McG, tanking is not an option for the team. They're using this stretch to teach the system and decide the triano question.

As a fan, I'm with Howland and Franchise though, play the young bucks, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, and we have a great draft position.

Unfortunately that would be supremly harmful and unfair to triano since he's fighting for his coaching life out there...

Just a couple of points -

1. Playing the young guys does not = tanking per se. Who knows how they would have responded with a 20 point lead. Only one way to find out. It's about development, not getting higher odds in the lottery.

2. If these guys do develop some chemistry over the last ten games people are going to want to keep this group together and I can tell you right now (a) that won't happen for $$ purposes and (b) these last ten games are not exactly against stellar opponents. I can see people over-hyping these guys all summer if they go more than .500 the rest of the way.

I am not convinced that Dirk on offense is that better than Bargnani. Please mind that Dirk plays with a team and a system built around him, Bargnani does not ye have such a luxury. I was reading last week an interesting article by Doug Smith on the Raptors not having had the time to modify their playbook to take into account a new and improved Bargnani. Truth is that coming into this season, despite the summer plans, nobody within the Raptors saw THIS Bargnani coming. I am certain,the new Raptors coach's (whomever he is going to be) first priority, is going to be how to maximize Andrea's offensive potential. I am convinced he has, right now, 25 ppg in his hands right now. On man to man defense he is already better than Dirk and he has to improve rebounding. Given the age difference I am not sure any GM would do a straight up trade Dirk - Bargnani not to mention Bargnani is far less expensive.

I have one question for this forum: If you are trading Bosh, what kind of player (or players) do you want back? meaning what sort of identity do you thing a Bosh less team should have?

""2. If these guys do develop some chemistry over the last ten games people are going to want to keep this group together and I can tell you right now (a) that won't happen for $$ purposes and (b) these last ten games are not exactly against stellar opponents. I can see people over-hyping these guys all summer if they go more than .500 the rest of the way. ""

I'm not sure that BC is concerned that some internet geeks might overhype his assets.

Further, I'm not sure that keeping this group together will be overly prohibitive for financial reasons. > though we may not be able to truly pimp the ride until we do something about the ten million going to Kapono and Banks.

TJ -

I am not suggesting that BC would be concerned. It will just be horribly frustrating to have to read about it constantly.

We have talked about the finances of this team a lot lately and extending Bargs and giving the max to Bosh (which is what will be required) would absolutely crippling to this team financially. Are you prepared to see half the salary cap tied into these two guys?

Points conceded howland, though I think we do have a pretty good idea what would've happened and what would happen over a stretch of games if the bench played more minutes over the starters... more losses and as a side effect a higher draft position. But like I said, I would be ok with playing those guys, seeing what they're made, of , giving them experience, etc. But Colangelo's obligated to put butts in ACC chairs, triano needs to win, and hell, our starters need to get better also.

Your point two though is scary, we know this team does not have what it takes to compete with elite teams as constructed.

Renato my opinion is they need a small(s) who can get dribble penetration and stop dribble penetration, period. It would make the whole team look much much better. A devin harris, a stephen jackson, a beasley, a deng, a ben gordon, speaking of remotely attainable type guys.

I think it is likely workable under the tax. It depends what you think the tax will be set at, and what Bosh and Bargs are likely to make.

Is it unreasonable to project a 65 million luxury tax in 2010, with Bosh and Bargs making a combined 27 million? > I'm curious to head other estimates.

That is tight, but if Bc really believes in Bosh and Bargs (which he may not), he does have the flexibility to keep them together: he may need to for some contracts to turn over before really puts the finishing touches on the complementary pieces, however.

Is that whack or is that reasonable?

Wait > would be the verb i meant to include in the previous post.

... may need to *wait* for some contracts to turn over before really puts the finishing touches on the complementary pieces...

I think renato asked the $17 Million question.

Some interesting scenarios were tossed around over the previous months involving quite a bevy of teams and players to approach in CBtrade scenarios.

How bout I just throw some ideas out there

GSW - Bellinelli and any of Randolph, Wright, Azubuike,
Memphis - Picks, Mayo, Warrick for our bench,
Chicago -Rose
Phoenix - Amundson, Nash, Barbosa
Lakers - Ariza, Gasol, pick
Philly - Thaddeus Young, SPeights
Detroit - any two from a choice of Tayshaun, Rip, Maxiell, STuckey
Atlanta - package for Smith, Horford,
Portland - fernandez, Roy
Utah - Millsapp and stuff

These haven't been put through any trade machines.

Just thoughts for renato.

JENGE:

There are some players on that list that will never be moved. Though, I would love to think it were possible!

Some other scenarios that might work would be Bosh to Portland for Aldridge, Fernandez and Outlaw.

Bosh to Minnesota for Gomez, Miller and two first round picks this year.

One trade I would personally love to see happen would be Bosh to Washington for Butler and Jamieson.

Or Bosh for Smith and Williams in Atlanta.

These are trades I could see really helping the Raptors in the near to long term. Obviously, each deal presents its own problems, but Bosh walking for nothing presents a world of problems.

My question was slightly different: What basket style should a Bosh less Raptors team should go for? Possibly the trade scenario will follow this decision. For example bosh was a pick and roll guy, if you want a faster pace kind of of offense you may want to go with a different kind of player

Just to make the story more complicate for everybody: If Bosh gets traded, does Bargnani need a Bosh-like player to be effective? I mean Andrea is a tough cover for a center, if we pair Andrea with a player with limited range they could possibly assign the C to this player and cover Bargnani with a more mobile PF away from the rack and limiting the damage (unless Andrea post game gets good enough he feels confident posting also PFs) For example paring Andrea with Amare (who can shoot from medium range) or Biedrinis (who can't) would produce two different looking Raptor's team

Renato:

Sorry for the mix-up.
My thoughts on this matter are that I like CB in TO. That being said, If we start zeroing in on AB as central to this team I have always thought that Pachulia would be a good backup for him at C. Second dibs on David Foster (but I doubt he's moving from the Pacers). Biedrins seems like a nice piece for the bench too.

Regarding the PF spot, I would like the following attributes:

Tough, low-post dominator on both D and O, with the ability to score face-up from mid range. Fights for offensive rebounds.

How about Kevin Love?

It seems that a lot more people have become enthralled in the concept that trading Bosh may make this team better next year. That, of course, depends on "who" would be obtained in any such trade.

However, I think the people who believe this team can get closer to the playoffs and a championship while moving Bosh this off-season are clearly misguided.

With Bosh in tow, this team needs 2 things: a scoring/slashing wing + depth. If BC properly addresses these two issues, then this team is a legitimate contender next season.

Conversely, if Bosh is traded, then next season will represent another start from square one; where no one will know what the team is capable of and how the pieces will fit.

I just don't know how this team is going to attract fans when they seem to rebuild more often than they've made the playoffs.

Rob

I'm not enthralled to trade Bosh. Please dont ever put me in that category.

Ustation,
Replace Marcus Camby with MoPete. Getting a rotation worthy player right away, who later developed into a starter, at 21 was a steal. Camby was drafted over Abdur-Rahim, Ray Allen and Marbury and others in the loaded 1996 draft class. His time with us was marred with injuries ("Mr.Glass" was not the complimentary nickname back then that it is right now).

As an added point, if trading your number 2 draft pick for a past-his-prime Oakley is a good move, then in my books the pick was far from a success.

Michael Stewart's got to be on that worst free agent signings list.

(I know your building up a case for something, in the process you touched upon many interesting sub-topics)

Re:Tanking - if its plus or minus one draft spot (teams 1-6 are just too good at it to catch), keep competing. Our team's main pieces have to show some potential as a unit. That maximizes our chances of getting one of our top coaching choices. We also need to showcase Marion, since he's only an asset in a sign and trade if he's worth more then the MLE. Those are both reason enough for Calderon to keep playing his regular minutes, and for Graham to take a backseat to Marion.

Renato, I think that we will be exchanging PF's as part of any trade package for Bosh. Well, that would make the most sense anyway.

JENGE,

I think any market for Bosh is restricted to teams he'd be willing to resign with. We should look for the win-win. If he gives us a list long enough to start a "bidding war", we trade him this summer instead of hanging on to him till 2010.

McGateway,

I use the term bidding war lightly. I think we should use the trades of other star players recently as a benchmark for a potential return. Examples include the Gasol deal, J-Rich to Suns, Iverson to Denver, Garnett. In the first one, the main motivation was the largest expiring deal(Kwame), and prospects + low 1st round picks. The second one was about exchanging one good starter for two solid starters. The third was about a positional replacement + low 1st round picks. The last one was about the best available young bigman. I think most offers we get will fall into one of the four categories mentioned above, its really about which direction BC wants to take.

It's tempting to look at all the great assets teams like the Blazers, GSW, and OKC have. However, realistically they will only put together a package that barely beats out what they perceive as the best offer of other teams.

My best case is one proven young player, one unproven prospect, expiring contracts, and a mid-low first rounder in 2009 or 2010.

2nd Raps Fan in LA, I agree that trading Bosh doesn't get you closer to the playoffs/championship in the short term.

BC being able to find a slashing/scoring wing + depth is a longshot as well. IMHO BC's chances of adding a slashing/ scoring wing and depth is more likely if BC trades Bosh in the process.

Square one implies that we would be starting from nothing...that isn't the case. Whether Bosh stays or not, we're still going to experience significant turnover this offseason. Turnover that will make what the team is capable of a mystery yet again. Those are the breaks when you're completing for lottery positioning instead of playoff positioning.

Casey says,
"Some other scenarios that might work would be Bosh to Portland for Aldridge, Fernandez and Outlaw."

Are you sick? That would be an organizational steal! We'd be solving all of our problems in one shot - a scoring 2, a slashing (though lazy) 3, and a strong rebounding 4. The problem is that Portland probably would not give Aldridge and bad contracts up for Bosh.
Sick dream, though.

Ustation`s post just shows how bad the Raptors trades have been. Also, remember it was Indiana who wanted Bender. If we had kept the pick, we could have had Marion, Richard Hamilton, Artest, Jason Terry, Adre Miller,Maggette, etc.. Actually, we we did pick-up Radojevic, we could have had two of them!!

AD helped Vince`s progression, though became a cancer soon after he became as "All-Star".

And don`t forget we could have also had Ginobili.

I`d still like to see the Raps make a run at Artest next year.