Tip In: Toronto Raptors Post Game - Learning From the Cats

sad, it really makes you cry for the season to end asap. What a lack of pride. Shameless.

Tks Howland,not to make excuses but this is quite a different Bobcat team,from the begining of the season.
Still unacceptable...
I am so tired of the "look offs" from AP with Bargs,you can almost sense,ya,I'll pass to you,but you will be my last option!!

Is it just me or has the officiating in the NBA been horrible this year? Too often it seems the refs are allowing players to get mugged in the paint while calling touch fouls everywhere else on the floor. This is not to say the Raptors are being called more than any other team only that I have seen some really bad reffing in a lot of the games I have watched this year (not all of them Raptor games).
This team is what it is, a mostly young team with very little direction from the top and it shouldn't suprise people that they are playing half-assed basketball as how can players follow a plan when there doesn't appear to be one? Trade away a potential future all star and a fan favourite (Charlie V and Matt Bonner) and get a PG we don't need (wouldn't the team have been better off letting Calderon develop?) and an over paid centre who plays more like a PF (Rasho). Trade those pieces away for a guy who has missed at least a full season of games over the last 4 years and who plays the same position as your franchise player and the guy you want to get better. Fire the coach you signed when you are only 8-9 then watch his replacement flounder with a team with no real identity. No matter how you slice it, the players have to be asking themselves why they should bother to play out the string and potentially get hurt for a team with no future and no real direction being given from up on high.

Not to give BC a get out of jail card, but sometimes things just don't work out as planned. My only question is how many more losses do we need to shut down our staters and play the O'Bryants of this world? We desparately need a high lottery pick.

Just so I can have I can say "I told you so" this summer, let me state for the record taht I can't foresee any chance in hell Marion gets more than the midlevel. That is what he is now, at best: a middle of the road player who would be a really nice asset in a lesser role. The scary thought is that if he is only going to get the midlevel, he might well end up with a team like the Lakers, Celtics or Spurs (not that those are neccessarily the best teams for his skillset, but just to give a few examples). Either way, Marion as a starter on the Raps seems like a worse idea as time goes by, as does re-singing Joey and Parker. Clearly, Joey is not a guy whose minutes are "scalable" to a lesser role; he needs to play a lot of minutes or Bad Joey begins to lurk in the shadows (and at the very least you get Mediocre Joey). Also, some of the coin that was going to go to Joey might not be so available with the emergence of Pops (who, by the way, should be payed as an 8th-9th man, not as a guy who is destined to become a permanent beast in the paint). Anyways, the more roster turnover we get this year, the better. And, to belabor a point I've made many times already, that has to start with unloading CB4 and using him to take some of the dead weight with him. I'm looking at you, Marcus Banks. And you Jason Kapono, who is the one mistake BC refuses to correct (or who might be impossible to correct without attaching a good player). Anyways, the point is, despite the moments that allow us to get our hopes up, this team as constructed is fatally flawed and in need of major reconstruction, with Bargs as the focal point.

I also couldn't agree more with d279: what the hell is the problem with feeding BArgs the ball when he has someone pinned? He got better position in the post in that game than I've seen out of him, ever. However, we've seen over and over again that if he doesn't get rewarded for this early on he will stop doing it for the entire game. Hence, Jay might want to, you know, run a few post plays for Andrea at the start of every game to get him involved.

Oops, I meant to say that Bargs got his best post position in the Indiana game, not the Charlotte one.

I would think that if you owned the Raptors and you wanted them to be a winning franchise, you would look to obtain coaching that has come from winning programs, specifically, those that have mentored under the best, namely Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley. Search out some assistant coaches from those programs and see if something can be worked out. We don't need a coach fom Italy, we need a coach from a winning program. You mentioned Larry Brown and the improvement in the Bobcat organization. That shows what can happen if you have good coaching and give them the resources and freedom to get the job done

rt,
some coach from Italy... but for the fact that, for example, that coach from Italy happens to be one of the two or three best coaches on the planet (the other two not being available) and coaching (at the opposite of playing) is not necessarily done any better in the NBA than elsewhere, actually there are evidence of the contrary. Some (most) coaching in the NBA is laughable and the "NBA experience" from a coaching perspective is more about how to adapt your coaching (teaching) style to the (little) time available, more than anything else. Sure, for a top European coach there will be some adaptation to be made, but not about basketball, not about defense strategy, not about running a fast peace attack, or screens or you name it. These are newcomers but not beginners and the Raptors, you will agree, are not on the verge of winning anything so also the potential damage is limited. So, limited downside. What about the upside? The upside is much more interesting, what about, for example, the benefits of somebody who comes from a winning programme? is it something any coach that has coached the Raptors could bring? what about the experience of growing young talent? What about a coach who has actually seen and implemented some Zone defense? (I am not talking about the funny Zone defenses you see at NBA level, I mean real ones, the ones for grown ups). While the best basketball, from a player talent point of view is plaid in the NBA. The best basketball, as a system is plaid elsewhere. I am not here to say that "any" foreign coach could do it but definitely the best foreign (mostly European) coaches would come to the NBA to teach much more than to learn.

ps, just as an example, where do you think Mike Dantoni learned to coach?.... guess what, In Italy, with Benetton and he was chosen and coached at the time..yes, you are right, by Maurizio Gherardini

McG - I totally agree about the reffing. It's not usually biased per se, but some refs are just second rate. And second rate teams draw second rate refs sadly.

On last night's game, that was just sad. I felt they had the right idea most of the night, really attacking the hoop, but just leaving EVERYTHING short.

Then on defence, they unfortunately weren't even in the building and Calderon looked really slow on his feet. This guy is not 100%

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Times they are'a changin, and Bosh he is a'goin!

New coach is needed. Clear philospophy, and some new talent.
If we can get Marion at mid-level, I'm okay with that. He's still got a motor and can play some Defence, though acquiring Raja Bell when he was available would have been a better call. And Remember, if we run as a philosophy, both Bell and Marion could not give the Suns a good defence. And they are known as great on the ball defenders. Marion only works if they get a 2 who can really score. I think Jose may be their best option at the 2. He can shoot and he can drive. Unfortunately, he's their only ready 1 as well.

Anyway, if we bring in a new coach, Bosh will leave as Jay is a buddy of his. Too bad, because Bosh should be a good fit for such a system, but he's too expensive come max contract time.

Pops is a good fit because he can run and will bang, but he's no starter and he's no answer for a really big center.

I think it might be good to draft a big like Mullins, who can run, and develop him for 3 years, which is how long competence will be away. He is a big,young, man who has loads of potential.

However, getting him means getting another pick, as it would be Hoffa like early to draft him in the 8 spot. Get another, higher pick and try to solve some problems by developing players for a change. Mitch didn't bring the young ones along very well. There are only a few NBA ready players out there form what I gather (Blake, Rubio, Hill, Harden), all of whom will be gone by the time the Raps come calling. It you hit the mock lottery shuffle on a few sites,(espn), the Raps get in the top 3 about every 20 spins, which tells you I need another hobby. It also tells us that the thinking has to be on an 8th pick who is best to be an underdeveloped freshman.

So, we are back to the Babcock plan.

At least we made the playoffs a few times. Toronto would appreciate a building team that worked hard. Bosh for youth. We want a team that wins and lacks a star. It has to get worse before it gets better.

It's not just AP looking off Bargnani. When we had Ford & Calderon sharing point guard duties we were frequently getting 20-25 assists, maybe 30 points and fresh legs for the whole game. Before Ford had his hissy fit I'm sure a lot of teams in the NBA actually envied the Raptors point guard situation. Now look at the Raptors. Calderon has been hurt, he has to play heavy minutes, he has his moments but I'll argue that he, as much as anybody is the reason for the poor ball movement on the Raptors. He slows the pace of play, if he doesn't feed Bosh, his big play of the day is the high pick and roll and he rarely reverses the ball. He'll drive, sometimes quite effectively but when have you seen him kick it out like we saw about the Bobcat guards do over & over again last night with great effect. Watch the next few games and concentrate on how slowly the Raptors start moving on offense. Other than Bargnani's welcome use of a mid-range game, I don't see any kind of regular player or ball movement. When I watch off the ball I see 4 statues time and time again, an indication of poor team play. That's why Pops is so refreshing. He simply goes to the basket an fights for the ball. He knows that nobody is likley to pass the ball to him, so he goes and gets it. The best play in basketball.

Learning From the Cats

What we should learn, is to stop studying what other teams are doing, and actually do something about it. For Charlotte, they’re mission is make the play-offs, where the slate is wiped clean, and where winning more is the bottom line. In this season, Charlotte went – in the Calendar years – from 11 & 21 ...... to 18 & 17.

As Raptor fans, we could all wish.

Suffice to say, Charlotte is acting on their goal. And the Raptors are not. Or not enough. Play-offs? We’d have to leap frog over 6 teams. Of course, we’d then be annihilated by Cleveland or Boston.

Our goal is next year’s play-offs. Which is why we need to be playing certain players more minutes. A guy like O’ Bryant should be playing 10 more minutes a game (to 14-15). And he should be playing EVERY game. If he has something, anything, then we develop a body to throw into a trade and the ballast needed to make things work (he has a 1.6 mil contract, I believe). Why has he only played 13 minutes in the last 3 games? Why has he only played 21 minutes TOTAL, since arriving in T.O.? In those last 3 games, we won one convincingly (where Pat – no relation to SNL’s – played 7 of that 13 total ... albeit garbage time), lost a tough one, and then experienced a Charlotte shellacking. At the end, if O’ Bryant plays terrible, we do what is already planned – buy him out. No big loss.
Except $500,000

Ukic is another example. In the month of March his minutes are down, when they should be up. Wouldn’t now be the time to assess what he’s all about? And if it means losing, then that’s the price. If we see that potential, in real time – not garbage 4th quarter where things are already done – then we can make a more defined decision in this year’s draft. Do we focus on a shooting guard, or will a PG come into play?

I will say that Pops is getting good minutes, but this process needs a shot of something – adrenaline, steroids maybe – if we’re to make some decisions for next season. We need to use this time to study what we have, and what we need to remove. If that means Kap gets less time, then so be it. We’ve already made a mistake paying his price; hopefully we don’t make the mistake of using up training minutes to see Kap hop around the court. We know what he is. A perimeter shooter who should be getting specific minutes – not much – in a presence that depends on opposition. Doubtful we’ll be able to trade him without taking the same thing back, so stick him where he belongs. No 6th man award for him either.

If Bosh & Marion can be brought into the concept of a training strategy, then chances are they may feel more positive at the end – losses be damned. Plus mentoring potential may give them reassurance and a little brightness to the season – low as it’s been. I still believe we have a solid core, but are missing a key position, and a strength in the Bench. If we can address this, then I’ll feel more optimistic for next season. It’s not enough to win a championship, but right now I’ll just settle for more. Exasperating as that might sound.

Well Renato, if they do bring in your Euro coach, I wish him the best but to me there is an element of experimentation in doing that and the Raps have had more than their share of experiments over the past few years. The coaches I mentioned are prooven winners and anyone who has apprenticed in those systems would have first hand knowledge of what it takes to win in the NBA. There are no guarantees either way of course. You mentioned Dantoni, he is a hell of a coach but how many NBA championship teams has he been a part ofand if he has then that proves my point.
On another topic, Is it realistic to expect Toronto to ever compete for a championship when all the top teams are out spending them by many millions? It seems to me that you have to be a top spender to be a top contender.

I agree there is an element of experimentation, but no mere than let's say get a rookie from the draft rather than hiring a free agent. Messina is a rookie but not a project. San Antonio is not a top spender and they walked the euro/fiba path earlier and more so than the Raptors. Not to say that THAT is the only way to go, just that this is not uncharted territory.

EaseMyPain - I am a little confused about your plan to improve the Raps. If you believe they will not be good for 3 more years then why bother resigning Marion even to a mid-level? It would make more sense to let him walk and save the money (Cap Space) for a future trade. Hoffa wasn't drafted too early, he shouldn't have been drafted at all. It isn't like the Bargnani situation where he developed into a good player eventually (the real argument about whether we should have drafted him 1st overall or not) but he just plain sucked and was a complete waste of a draft pick. If you want someone at the 8 spot and they will be good, I have no problem with the Raps drafting them.

Renato - Finding an NBA assistant who is going to be as good as Pops, Jackson or Sloan is just as big of a gamble as bringing in a Proven winner from overseas. Just because someone can be a good Assistant doesn't mean they will be a good head coach (see PJ Carl, Kevin Oneil or Brandon Malone) while at least we know some of the Euro coaches can be head coaches even if they have no experience in the NBA. I am willing to take a chance on someone who has multiple championships overseas as a head coach as I feel the risk is worth it.

McGateway, you are preaching to a believer. Rt was the guy who felt comfortable just with proven NBA experience

McGateway:

I hope you're right because Colanglo seems to have a strong connection to the European scene and so it is likely that your Euro choice will be chosen. It would not be my choice but I can't seem to convince anyone of the value of top quality "experience" and that applies to any field of life let alone NBA coaching but what do I know so fill your boots boys.
I hope it works either way.

Sounds like we are all in agreement that Triano is gone.
The Addict is correct, Marion will not be back. Nor should we want him.

I had so hoped for Triano to succeed. In fairness, he was not dealt a very good hand but regardless, the results since he took over almost ensures he will not get another kick at a head coaching job. Any new coach taking over a poor team probably feels they may be able to pull off a miracle but the down side is to end up with a loosing record that is likely to end your chances in the future.

Rapthoseleafs,

I don't think POB has suffered from any lack of opportunity. Pops is proof there are minutes to be had, even in crunch time, as long as one is capable of doing something with those minutes.

One intriguing thing to think about, is that POB's contract could be more valuble then any production on the court. He's on the books for ~$800,000 next year, with only $300,000 of that guaranteed, provided he's waived by a certain date in the summer. Since we're going to be over the soft cap this summer, we could use his salary at its full value (800,000) and trade it to a team that's over the cap and actually has a player making close to a mill, that actually has some game. The other team cuts POB and gets under the luxury tax. We get a roster-worthy player for some dollars saved. Win, win.

Easemypain,

I'd steer clear from Mullens. The boom:bust ratio on raw lottery big men is lower then every other position. As an organization we aren't in a position to take that kind of risk. The player we draft at 8 HAS to be the building block for whatever plan BC has going forward. Were it up to me, I'd draw up a two column list with every player we want to hang on to, and what kind of skill sets they work best with.

Does Bargnani function best when he has SF that can take on more then a fair share of the rebounding duties. Would Calderon benefit from a ballhandling wing, that allows him to play off the ball more, utilizing that shooting stroke of his? Tally it up, and the position/player that does the most good in the most areas would be the best selection. Draft best player availble isn't remotely as cut and dried as it sounds. I agree with a model that Chris Ford from ESPN put up, where instead of a A-Z linear list, the top 30 players of the 2008 draft class were divided into 6 tiers of similar talent level. Best available in this case would be the player from a higher tier that dropped, like Brook Lopez or Bayless last year. Best fit would help you decide between players within a tier.

I also want to see a definitive plan on the fates of Hump and Pops, since their roles and skill sets overlap in certain areas. You can't pay Hump 3 million and have him behind Pops on the depth chart, especially in a shrinking salary cap world.

McGateway,
About the idea of signing Marion, you are right. If we rebuild, he's not part of it. If we retool, we try to get him cheap. I think BC will try to retool, but he should be rebuilding.

As for Hoffa, yeah, he should not have been drafted at all, but he did impress a lot of people at the time and was considered a mid to late first round pick. They drafted him out of need, mostly the need to try to keep Vince happy. Remember how they said he was NBA ready? Well, someone really thought that. Besides, Nelson or Igoudala would be useless here! But even they needed time to develop, especially Nelson. So, all of you who lament the Bargnani drafting need to cool it down. He's moved back up the charts of pros out of that year. It takes time to develop. Toronto has to stop throwing out young guys before they develop. Ukic is going to be a very useful guard. He may not have the court vision to be a great guard, but he's a guy who can get in the paint on almost anyone and keep a Rondo out! Develop him.
Bargs is just coming along now. Celebrate a little success from waiting for players to develop!

As for drafting Mullens, it is just a feel and a recognition that he is a mobile young guy with raw ability and size who we can get. We need to develop whoever we get. With the drafting of such young talent these days, a team needs teachers as much as coaches. I'm just tired of trying to do it all and getting nothing done. Either rebuild, or don't, though it is the only option I can see.

Yardly says we need a rebounding 4. I think we need a rebounding 3 and 4. A scoring 2, defensive and rebounding 3, a 5 who can rebound, clean glass, and run. He needs to finish at the glass. Shooting is the least, though appreciated, skill we need from a 4/5 who is playing with Bargnani. This I say from a belief that Bosh is already gone.

EaseMypain,

That's a good, detailed wishlist breakdown.

In a perfect my first choice would be a 2/3 oversized shooting guard (6'7+), with athleticism, adhesive D and court vision. Second choice would be a 3/4 who's 6'8+ with a normal SF skillset plus high level rebounding ability.

Looking at the odd mockdraft, it doesn't look like anyone meets the first requirement. James Harden, and Gerald Henderson meet differing parts of it. And they are both read to contribute something, right away.

For the second choice, Aminu fits best as a "more athletic Luol Deng. Doesn't get much better then that when your drafting at the 8 spot. Looks like the kind of talent worth trading up for, even though he'll take longer to contribute then the SGs mentioned above.

Assuming Harden's off the board by time we pick, I'd go Aminu > Henderson. After that, options are murky from where I sit. Maybe Tyreke Evans, maybe a combo guard.

I wouldn't necessarily draft a rebounding 4.