Tip-In, Toronto Raptors’ Post-Game: Fading like a Flower

The play of this team starts and ends with CB4. He started the season out with passion and heart (garnering some early MVP talk) then sulks when things don't go as planned at the tail end of the season. Granted, this season has been a terrible disappointment with all the hype was created before the season opener, but I don't see a leader in Bosh to take us through this. Did KG ever pull this crap? Further, CB4 seems to have a whole lot more Karl Malone in him at the end of games then I like. There have been countless times this season where he could have put the game away with a timely bucket but ends up coughing up the ball. Maybe we need to cut our losses and trade him in a draft day deal...

Are any of us really still shocked or upset about the performance of this team? We've been talking about them placing a sense of urgency on the season months ago. It's done. Let go of the anger and look towards the future. Not much will come from pointing fingers at guys this late in the season. Bosh is human, he's going to bleed when you cut him. Am I sold on Bosh as an asset to this team going forward? Not necessarily. However, the dudes allowed to be human and feel a little down about losing. Let's remember, he's not Lebron, Kobe or Wade - he doesn't have the ability to carry a team, while being surrounded by a struggling supporting cast. Anyhow, I'm just saying that we should move past worrying about the performances (this season) of most on this team. Let's look at how we're going to put this team together for next season. I agree, get the 2nd unit on the floor, ASAP. Let them gain some experience, and get us some more loses (which hopefully equates to a better draft position). Can't wait until lottery night! In the meantime, let's enjoy the playoff games (as there are going to be some awesome matchups this year) as well as some college ball/prospects.
N

Bob - Last night's loss actually made me think back to KG when he was the lone man in Minny. The team was mediocre at best but Garnett always tried to elevate his club's play.

Now no one is KG, but I just haven't seen enough passion or fire from Bosh during this losing streak. Hopefully Marion's words make the rest of the group stand up and take notice.

Well stated Franchise. As deficient as this club is in talent, there is really no excuse for the lack of effort shown by most of the team, with Bosh leading the way. Bob is right - what I see from Bosh is sulking. Max contract players do not sulk. I don't expect Kobe or Lebron type performances from him, but I do expect some fire in his game. At least try to elevate your team. I'm in the trade him camp. I'd be willing to sacrifice a little in the talent department for some toughness and edge.

Watching the Portland/LA skirmish the other night really hit home. Remember when good old TJ got mugged in Atlanta? How did the Raptors respond? Prayer circle. Lead by Bosh. Portland – Roy got in their face. That’s a leader. That’s fire. That is severely lacking on this team, and especially in our leader, Bosh.

I remember how a younger Bosh was admired for taking losing so badly, brushing off a joking Vince Carter who tried to make light of a bad game. I guess that youthful fire has been replaced by a resignation that this is a bad situation. The body is beat up and so is the will, and for what? I don't know, as fans sometimes we affix expectations on the teams and the athletes we support while not applying the same standards to ourselves. It's not always accurate to say someone is not a fighter without understanding for sure what's going on with their body or their off court situation. Maybe Chris is fighting, maybe he's not. We don't know. His advantage was quickness, that quickness is gone. Maybe he's the type that needs something to fight for, which this season of late hasn't provided, so he's saving his body (and his capacity to fight) for other battles down the line. Yeah, some will say..they get paid millions so they should be giving full effort all the time...what they get paid is a function of supply and demand, a result of the same economic factors that set most of our pay scales at the tens of thousands. At work, most of us have good and bad days, except we don't have people watching our performances, questioning all aspects of our character and our skills.

As a fan, am I disappointed in the season? Of course, but I am also able to transition from a fan of the team to a fan of the sport and still find good games worth watching.

Well, Franchise, I read your post every weekday in the morning with my coffee to get me day started, but tomorrow, I'm signing off. Nope, it's not you, but the Raptors. I'm done this year. On to watching Portland play good ball and waiting for the playoffs. My take? The Raps were dealt a terrible sked and it blew their confidence. Oh, right, I forgot, the bench was horrible this year. It couldn't get the Raps into the playoffs where the starting 5 could have taken over. And..., Jose, I think you're right, it's time to sit him down. This is not the Jose I remember. Lets see if Ukic can play. Where do we go from here? Well, I became a huge fan of Bargs this year. He's a player. Also, lets not forget the BC set himself up to steady this ship next year by getting rid of JO. Can we sign Marion for under 10 mil? Would you do it if you could? I think he's the defender we missed during the first part of the year at the small forward spot. I don't think you want to spend more than 3 or 4 mil on Joey, but I like him. I'm not sure what to do about AP. Bosh? Oh boy, you guys may hate me for this, but he's over-rated. Look at the other Olympic starters and their teams. I rest my case. Lets use that money and pick up some pieces around Bargs. Lets use that pick wisely this year. BC, this may make you or break you. Ok, finally, for you Torontians, check out
Charles Spearin's happiness project. I watched a good Broken Social Scene show the other night in Seattle and Charles played a couple tracks from the project. After all, we need some more happiness these days in Raptor land. I'm out. See you next year. Peace.

This team is just not fun to watch anymore, its the same theme every game - We cannot, rebound, our guards allow more penetration than ur favorite nroP star. I say get rid of everybody besides the italian kid and shawn marion. Out like Bosh.

I've also added this story to basketballbuzz.ca

For of you basketball "experts" that want to build a team around Bargnani, I've got one big raspberry for you. I'm happy that he doesn't look like a lost waif out there anymore but excu-u-z-e me if on a team that rebounds like crap, defends like crap, penetrates like crap and rarely shares the ball well, where does Bargnani really solve any of those ills. Sorry if I don't see Bargnani as any kind of saviour. An integral part of a good team? I'd like to think so but I think a lot of you should give your head a good shake. As for the rest of the team, D-leaguer after D-leaguer are having their career bests against the Raptors. No disrespect to the D-leaguers but if I'm Coangelo, after I blow up this team, the first thing I check on new players is their heart.

Regarding KG - I think he showed he was pretty exasperated in his final years in Minny. I'm not suggesting it's the same situation for the Raptors, but I remember on multiple occasions in his final Minny years where he just took jump shot after jump shot. Few people remember just how much worse the Timberwolves were in those final years. They didn't have Bargnani or any kind of secondary threat like that.

I think the team knows already what it can get out of Bosh and Calderon, and the quicker we shut down those two and move on to evaluating the rest of the team, the better.

I completely agree the effort isn't there, but I think the bad defense goes beyond guys keeping their men in front of them like triano says because there's not a man, outside of possibly parker and bargnani that can see an opponent's play develop. There's always 3 or 4 guys watching the ballhandler and that means there's always 3 or 4 cutters coming down the middle or through the back door completely unimpeded, sure maybe someone could then block their shot, but really once that cutter has a step on their man, the defense has already failed.

You watch the lakers, or any other team, and commentators will say, 'oh they were caught ballwatching that time', but with the raps, it happens virtually every possession.

Sure we've had lots of blow-bys, turnovers, miscues and misses of gimmees, but I think this is the bread and butter of how the raps lose.

Remember when Feschuk was asking all those pessimistic questions at media day and you guys made fun of him for that. He doesn't sound so unreasonable now does he?

Just like the Sam Mitchell firing, I am at the point where I just want to see what would happen if we traded Bosh. Obviously, the Triano story will be coming to an abrupt end in the off-season, and has very much been a disappointment. There is probably an even greater chance we would end up regretting giving up Bosh, but goddamn it, the dude is just not worth a max contract. Sure he will put up 30 two nights in a row (both loses), but he will also end up -27 in a game and be more concerned about a team-mates shirt than his pathetic play. Let the cards fall where they may, but definitely cut losses before he just walks and we get nothing in return.

Separate note. Can someone get a stats on Andrea's points in the first quarter, vs the last 3? I just think the differential would be enormous. How do we keep this guy rolling? He seems to just totally disappear as the game goes on, not matter if he is in foul trouble or not. Bargs as the future gents. Put up the billboard and let's see where things go.

I guess my point all along has been illustrated in posts after my original: I don't want to see Bosh signed for max money and don't beleive that he would sing here anyways. Trade him for young promising talent and picks. I know that if Bosh signs with a team that has a Bron or Wade, he will look like a huge steal but he doesn't have the ability to do it on his own. Like a friend with benefits; it was fun while it lasted, but it's time to cut the cord and move on...

Vicious D you are so right! People easily forget things and cloudy there mines with recent event to justify there thoughts. KG is a jump shooter and it became more evident in his final two years with the Wolfs. I was and still a big KG fan although truthfully I have lost some respect in him for some of his recent action but Vicious is right. The difference between CB4 and KG is KG is passion and intensity on and off the court.

I not compare player talent or accomplishment but their will and passion on the court.

Just for your info I was one of those Minny fans on the blog saying don't trade KG get him so help.

Some stats for you guys...Again not comparing Bosh to KG in terms of talent or anything. This is about shot selection you guys are complaining about.

Shot selection – 2006-2007
Jump 77% .434 11.7
Inside 23% .631 5.2

Shot selection – 2005-2006
Jump 70% .469 10.3
Inside 30% .672 6.3

Shot selection – 2004-2005
Jump 69% .440 10.1
Inside 31% .649 6.6

Interesting stats as you can see 77% of KG shot came from jump shot in his final year in Minny. 77%....

Bosh on the other hand

Shot selection – 2007-2008
Jump 58% .414 7.3
Inside 42% .614 8.0

Shot selection – 2006-2007
Jump 59% .410 7.6
Inside 41% .631 8.3

Shot selection – 2005-2006
Jump 62% .440 8.5
Inside 38% .612 7.2

Shot selection – 2004-2005
Jump 61% .405 6.2
Inside 39% .580 5.5

As bad as Bosh has been he has been a soft constant jump shooter that drives us crazy with no passion on the court he has been pretty consistence in what he does for the past couple years

In all fairness if Bosh leaves,chances are he will be going to play with some gold medal friends,I'm sure he will shine because he will no longer have to be the man or woman(sorry I had to)

This year so far 2008-2009

Jump 64% .439 9.1
Inside 36% .601 6.9

Again this is not an argument if we should trade Bosh or not or about if he deserve the max it simply about shot selection between KG and Bosh. It is not about KG vs. Bosh in terms of talent accomplishment or anything it about SHOT SELECTION during a losing season.

All stats are from 82games.com

First off,i dont think bosh is the problem, no one in this league can win a game by them self, if you look at how minnesota was when they had KG, the supporting cast was mediocre at best, this is the same situation goin on in toronto. If you dont surround your frachise player theres no way in hell you gonna win games, i think the problem is BC, look at the roster we have all of them are D leaguers at best,take a look at the bench players ukic kapono, jawai voshuhl, marcus banks humphries, graham obryant, i think were lucky that this team won that much games, this team need a big time overhaul

We have been preaching the same things over and over for the last few years about how this team needs to address their weaknesses (defense and rebounding)..But notice how a lot of the same players are here in that tenure. Its no wonder we can't pull down a rebound with guys like Jason Kapono in the lineup. That guy doesn't know what a rebound or defense is. Im sure the coaches must be pulling their hair out.. But think of the famous saying, you can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drink. That statement applies to the Raptors. Just cause you work your tail off to teach things, doesn't mean that the players will put it into action on the court. Im at the point where Im asking if its possible just to forefit the rest of the games. At least get a decent shot at a top 3 pick vs sitting at the 8th. This draft is weak. We can at least come out of this season with a decent draft pick. Maybe if we are lucky, Ricky Rubio might be drafted. Anyways thats enough wishful thinking for me. Back to reality. See ya fellas...Oh yeah one last thing, I bought tickets off this guy not too long ago for the Suns/Raps game back in January. The guy I bought off of has tickets available in the lower 100 level for the game against Indy. Heres his email address if anyone is interested in going... pbee15@rogers.com

I think a lot of people are letting their emotions regarding a disappointing season get the best of them, in suggesting we move Bosh voluntarily. If CB4 agrees to sign an extension this off-season, BC needs to get it done, max deal. People here have been spoiled by watching him play at such a high level and are now nitpicking his faults. Sure he seems soft at times and seems to have lost his drive (literally) the second half of this year, but the guy has had NO help; NONE. Look at what happened a few years ago when there was a decent team around him and no major injuries; he got this team to 47 wins and home court in the playoffs.

The people who advocate moving Bosh are nuts; and the Olympic teammate examples don't fly because the only guys making noise are LBJ and Flash. Melo was on his way to leading a much more talented Denver squad to another first round exit until Billups arrived in the AI trade. All you need to do is look around the league at the top teams that don't have a Kobe, Lebron or a Wade and scrutinize their line-up; they all have at least 2 or more very good players and a good supporting cast. It's bullshit the players Bosh has had to play with in Toronto. The 2nd and 3rd best players on our teams would have been fringe starters on true contending ball clubs; except maybe Calderon when healthy. You guys sit here and shit on Bosh, for wha, not being able to do what Lebron or Wade have done; hell even Kobe couldn't do it all by himself when he had a mediocre cast around him.

Guys like SwirskySoldier may come off a little to rah rah regarding this team, but this kind of attitude at the other end of the spectrum is worse. At least he looks at how this team could get better; everyone suggesting we move Bosh by choice are advocating this team get worse because that's exactly what will happen if you trade away a 24 yr old all-star who puts up 22/10 and is still capable of improving.

If the Raptors move this kid, and it isn't because he forced their hand, I will definitely be moving on from this team. You don't trade away talent like Bosh if you are legitimately pursuing a championship; you surround him with more talent so he can get it done.

Rob

Oh and I wanted to say something after hearing that Ziccarelli of the Sun is advocating/reporting that the Raptors are or should be interested in Sam Dalembert. Exactly what does it take to be a basketball writer for this paper? Even a passive observer would recognize that the Raptors have the 4 and 5 positions set, and when they brought in JO that experiment failed miserably. So Ziccarelli is advocating version 2.0 of the "let's bring in a defensive presence at the 5 and bring Bargnani in off the bench" plan. I don't even think this guy has watched a Raptors game all season, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is really a Leaves writer moonlighting as a basketball scribe.

What a Joke!

Rob

I just read an article by Bill Simmons on ESPN.com about the Clippers/Cavaliers game. Priceless. You think we're frustrated in Toronto, we're not alone.

Hey Melon, I read the same one and cracked up laughing; and then the Sam Mitchell comment sealed it at the end for me.

Rob

"Separate note. Can someone get a stats on Andrea's points in the first quarter, vs the last 3? I just think the differential would be enormous. How do we keep this guy rolling? He seems to just totally disappear as the game goes on, not matter if he is in foul trouble or not. Bargs as the future gents. Put up the billboard and let's see where things go."

The reason He disappears is Bosh is always fed the ball!

At least I have one person ( 2nd Raps fan in LA) who's mind is not clouded with recent event and comparing max salaries to two of the best in the game LeBron and Wade is a reason for trading Bosh.

As for giving Bosh getting 133 million over a 7 year period - a max plus contract is very unlikely. This is a rumor started by real-GM which is not the final say in basketball, but even if it did happen it would not put this team in a financial handcuff like most of you thinks. I won't prove this right now (really don't want to take out the calculator) but it only a 3 million dollar upgrade. Keep that in mind.

Anyway back to my stats between KG and CB4 regarding shot selection. I could also grantee you the 90% of people on this blog thinks CB4 takes more jump-shot than is opponent compare to KG in is last year with Minny.

Well Bosh IFG per 48 minutes (means the percentage of shots taken from inside/close to the hoop) is way higher than KG. Again this is not to say CB4 is better than KG (that would be crazy) but it only comparing there Shot Selection in a Losing Season.

CB4
Bosh IFG is 35% from the PF position
Opponent is 31% from the PF position
Net IFG is 4%.

KG IFG is 24% from the PF position
Opponent is 42% from the PF position
Net IFG is -18%

Again please don't misinterpret the stats above. I not saying CB4 is better than KG I simple trying to open people mind and provide some light into what a losing season can do to a person. Even one of the best in the game KG was shooting jump shot after jump shot. It drove me crazy at the time but I did not over-react and say trade is ass. Bosh has been bash (well deserve at times) for being a jump shooter which he his but he still drove to the hoop more than KG DURING A LOSING SEASON. The big difference was KG still give 100% effort on both ends of the floor ( still result in a losing season), Bosh does not. This is not an excuse for is CB4 but trying to spread some light into what losing can do to even one of the toughest guy in the game.

JordanFanatic - Thanks for the stats breakdown. I seldom have time to go through everything in 82 games to narrow things down like you just did.

As for max contract and whatever, I think people have to take a different perspective. We seem to forget that the NBA's salary structure is based on tiering for a particular club. For example, Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady were/are max players because they were the best players on their team, not necessarily the best players in the league. It's a sort of reserved space to make sure that you can retain the services of your franchise/star player. I think that max contract moniker has a lot of people comparing odd things like whether Bosh deserves the same money as LeBron or Wade, when in actuality, the question should be if there wasn't a cap, if LeBron and Wade are vastly underpaid? Just a different way of looking at things.

My issue is not whether I believe that Bosh is/is not a Franchise guy or a Max. money guy. Simply put, the Raps in this economy and with a declining salary cap can't afford to pay a player like Bosh 3 million more per season (as you suggest JordanFanatic). I do appreciate your breakdown though. If we sign Bosh to that kind of money and the cap decreases then we will pretty much have the same team going forward for the next three years (that's if the economy improves at this time as projected by some). If the salary cap had increased this season then I would pay Bosh max. money and try to bring in a better supporting cast to compliment him. Unfortunately, Bosh needs a supporting cast to be effective. If we sign him to a max. money deal, we cannot afford to sign this supporting cast. It's really a catch 22. The real issue is the contract of Kapono and one Marcus Banks. Jose's play and contract isn't really helping us much so far this season either. I will wait to see if an injury-free Jose next year is worth his increasing contract. I will reserve judgment until then. My point I guess is not whether Bosh is deserving of max. money, because he has been our rock the last few years. It's whether we can afford to sign him to that kind of money. I hope I made my position clear!

AGM - My understanding is that it's a percentage of the full cap. Now it'll depend on the year he signs, but if the cap continues to go down, it makes more sense for him to sign now rather than later, I believe.

According to the article I quoted a few posts ago (that no one seemed to comment on), Bosh's agent along with the agents of the other 2010 free agents, are going to push their guys to sign their big extensions this summer. If they don't, they risk losing millions if changes are made in the CBA when it gets reopened lowering the amount and terms of max. money contracts. There is a very good chance Bosh will resign with the Raps this offseason just because of the $$$$. Another option is to work out a sign and trade (after he signs an extension) with a team of his liking. The question is whether or not signing him to max. money this offseason makes sense. As I mentioned before, other than MLE and LLE guys, the Raps won't have a lot of money to revamp the present roster, especially because of the declining salary cap. I am not a capologist by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems pretty simple to me - player demanding top dollar this season + declining salary cap = less money to go after other free agents to round out roster. Unless Bosh waits it out, and we somehow have a playoff bound season in 2009-10 and he resigns at next year's max, which should be less than this year's max. I just find the latter situation unlikely. This is going to be a very intersting offseason.