3 In the Key – Toronto Raptors Game-Day Preview vs. Cleveland

Bynum's out till the end of the year, i think i might know a little purple and gold team that might need a little JO in their life.

Luke Walton + Odom for Jermain Oneal and Jamario Moon

Great post Franchise I love it.

Honestly, trading Bosh would be the worst move this team would make unless he tells BC he wanted out.

I said it yesterday but it is true no 24 PF all-star is going to take is team to the glory land by himself. It is impossible.

There are many PF out there Raptor Fans think are better than Bosh. With the exception of Duncan and KG, hypnotically speaking if we swap Bosh one for one for Amare, Dirk, Boozer, Millsap, West or Rasheed than would any of these guys makes a difference?

As a matter of fact I just Google to find a list of the best PF in the league I could not find 10 good players. Just to show you guys how rare talented PF is.

Yes he not a Franchise player (YET) and he might have a few bad games, plus needs to develop is leadership skills but with time and hard work those things will come.

Provide CB4 with a creative wing and consistence Big in AB and a solid back up to Jose than you can Judge him.

Until then he his standing on a unfair ground!

Ahhh... Sanity. Thank you Franchise. Hopefully we can now move on from the ridiculous discussions going on in this space yesterday and start talking about improving the real deficiencies of this team. There are avenues to improve this team (for next season, this season is lost). We have JO's expiring contract (if he's not traded before the deadline), Parker, Joey and Garbo's contracts all come off the books at year end. There's the soon to be lottery pick and Delfino's rights.

At least we have some pieces to work with, but the task is monumental. This team essentially has 3 legitimate NBA "starter quality" players (Bosh, Bargs, Claderone). Say what you want about Joey’s improvement, but he is a 2nd stringer in this league (on a GOOD team). That means the Raptors need to come up with 2 starter quality wings and at least two dependable, solid contributors off the bench by opening night next season. The point guard situation has to be solidified as well. Thre has to be SIGNIFICANT improvement from Roko as well as a veteran 3rd stringer. Not small tasks… Well BC time to earn your keep!

One thing I am praying for as well. No more "Euro gambles". No adjustment periods, no inflated expectations based on playing against a league of scrubs. I want to see Blue-chip, proven NBA commodities. This includes coaching. I don’t want BC trotting in some unknown quantity from Europe that has had a lot of success coaching against teams that can’t even pay their players. I want a proven NBA coach that can bring a philosophy, vision and direction to this team. I wish no ill will on Jay Triano and in fact wish him all the best in his career. But its time for this team to have some legitimate talent brought in, on the court and on the sidelines.

Franchise

taking your argument by the horns: How much would you be willing to spend to keep Chris here given he is not in the same class as those players? Keeping in mind that every Euro..ahem... Dollar you give him could be crippling your team more than it is helping it. At the end it is down to the money. I believe he has earned a good contract (15M maybe)? not a top money one. Moreover paying him top money would prevent you from putting together a competitive team anyway. So that is my take, what is yours?

I didn't really even want to talk about Stephen Smith yesterday, but heck, I guess it was news.

For me, Bosh, at 14 million, I'm not losing sleep. I agree completely with Franchise that it's just ridiculous to trade Bosh. He's not the problem. He never has been. Sure, he's had a couple bad games, made some poor decisions, but I'd imagining being the only guy talking on defense, getting on your team for the same things for 50 games, I'd not be as sharp too.

For now, all I'm going to do is sit back and just keep waiting for a shakeup.

Renato;

Talented PF don't just drop from trees. Bosh deserves 22million.

With the exception of Duncan (greatest PF every) and KG (top 2 or 3 all time on most people list) name me 5 PF who are better than Bosh?

Looked up "franchise player" on wiki to see their definition...guess who they have as their example for the NBA - Chris Bosh!

I hate the term 'franchise
player' as it gets bandied about these days. In part because it has no coherent definition so people throw it around as if it means something.

Here's the rub, if you made everyone a free-agent tomorrow and had a draft of player by player, how long before Bosh is off the board? 10 picks? Less? The fact is he is one of the top guys in the league - and if every team gets one 'franchise player' he not only qualifies as one, but as an elite one.

Can he carry a team on his own? No. Nobody can. Not Jordan, not Wilt, not Magic, no Bird. All the best players who racked up championships did so on a TEAM where they were simply part of the puzzle.

Bosh has his flaws, but he is definitely a piece of our puzzle I want to keep.

Switching topics for a moment but does anyone else read the 'wages of wins' blog? It continues to have Bargnani as a below averge talent for his position and Bosh as way above average for his.

Perhaps we should be striking while the iron is hot and moving Bargnani afterall?

30 mil in Us dollars is about 36 mil Canadian is Bosh worth that?

andre: i'd do that trade in a second.

re: bosh, $20 mil seems about right, maybe a bit more, but definitely not $30 mil. that leaves too little to do anything else. he's an amazing player but if there's no money left to build around him what's the point?

problem though, with that trade scenario, is that I doubt the Lakers would give up Odom just to rent JO for 8-12 weeks of regular season.

All I can think of when I think of this team is joey graham, arms at his sides, looking over his shoulder at his man shooting a wide open shot... it just says it all for this team... I'm not putting it all on joey, but this team just can not lock in for 48 minutes. And I don't even want to see moon, bosh or graham ever make a make a jump shot ever again and kapono doesn't need to play at all. A jumpshot only sf maybe makes sense if we have a real bruiser at centre, but 'dre' benefits more from the drive and kick, which all those guys I listed should learn to do.

More fodder to the Stephen A. Smith diss-fest:

http://deadspin.com/5145138/everything-stephen-a-smith-makes-up-is-important

Props to Doug Smith to for referring to him as an entertainer, because that's all he is.

Moving on from rubbish, let's talk dollah bills. I'm not sure you can pay Bosh any less than the max frankly. Is he a max guy? He's pretty damn close in my opinion. And not heading to the table with the max offer in hands opens all sorts of doors in terms of departures.

HOWEVER...

Realistically I'd put his NBA value (not real-life value, where doctors and the like should make more than athletes) at around the Dirk Nowitzki range to Paul Pierce range; similar individual talents who can’t do it themselves. Pierce is actually another good case study in regards to "Franchise players." Remember how bad that Celtics’ team was when he was holding down the fort without KG and Ray Allen? I’d argue the current Raptors are marginally more talented (more talented in the starting 5 with Bosh, Jose and Andrea over just Pierce, Perkins and Al Jefferson but lacking as much bench depth) than that version of the C’s and Pierce found himself in a similar situation as Bosh. Everyone was ready to declare Pierce a perpetual loser and move him for 20 cents on the dollar. Now? Not so much. Suddenly Pierce is tough and a leader and going to have his jersey retired.

Also – great point Andre. It would be nice from a Raps’ perspective to see LA start to struggle minus Bynum. Perhaps then such an O’Neal trade would work perfectly for both teams and hell, why not expand on things and include Kapono? That would send him back to familiar territory as a UCLA grad and Toronto would take back Chris Mihm (who comes off the books after this year) and Josh Powell (owed less than a million bucks in 2009-10, the last year of his deal) in addition to Walton and Odom. Then LA gets a replacement for Bynum, an outside gunner to complement Kobe and Gasol, and an athlete in Moon. Toronto clears over $20 Million in cap room for this coming summer, less if they want to hang onto Odom who might be a nice fit at the 3 considering his rebounding abilities...

Great article Franchise. I think it's something that is on almost every Raptor's fan's mind right now - it was certainly on my mind when I emailed you about this issue before reading your article.

Yes, hiccup would obviously be renting O'Neal...would he come off the bench when Bynum gets healthy? The selling point would probably have to be that JO's contract once expired gives the team a lot of loot with which to re-sign Bryant and Gasol, who I believe both expire the following season.

I loved the piece Franchise; thanks for breaking it down in a rational way.

I think the most salient point is that if this team doesn't get its act together in the next year and a half, not only should Bosh want to leave, but Colangelo should be shown the door also. I know some people will say that BC would not have made certain moves if he had known the likes of Calderon would have developed into a top flight PG, but I think he has been a mediocre GM at best; saved by the fact that we had Babcock before him. Iès almost the same way Obama will be viewed if he were to become a mediocre President because the guy before him was such a disaster.

This team has too many redundant pieces, and glaring holes on the wings and the bench. The next 6-12 months of work that BC will put in, will determine the fate of this franchise for many years going forward. Unless BC has a good (hopefully great) draft, trades JO for a wing or cap space to get a wing, and ultimately puts together a contending team I DO believe Bosh will bolt in 2010. He has experienced too little success with the Raptors compared to the turmoil. The kid came in before and during the VC saga, has a little taste of success and then has to go through it all again now. It would be absurd to think that he would re-sign with this team if it looks like it is off the rails. Franchise, you mention the money he would be leaving on the table, but Bosh will be making so much that I donèt think that 30 mil will matter if he isnèt happy here, and doesnèt believe the team can contend. Whatès more enticing to you, a few more million per season to stay on a franchise in disarray (when youère already making tens of millions) or join a guy like Lebron or D-Wade for a run at a Championship???
Also, by joining one of those guys he would surely get a trickle down effect in terms of endorsements and make some of the money back.

That's why, as much as I loved your rational and balanced article Franchise, I think the Raptors are in BIG troube unless something is done ASAP to show Bosh that this is a stable contending team; and not just one that has a good season in between the years of mediocrity.

Rob

There are actually 8 PFs playing at or above Bosh (right now):
- Garnett
- Duncan
- Dirk
- Al Jefferson (unless you call him a Center)
- Amare
- David West (inflated stats from playing with CP3)
- Gasol
- David Lee (inflated stats, but consistent)

And you can usually throw in Boozer, but he's only played 12 games. Jamison isn't far behind either.

Now - who would I rather have than Bosh?

KG, Duncan, and Dirk are all superior players, but probably approaching or past their peak, so they are best when combined with a solid team (1-2 other all stars) around them.

Dirk also wouldn't fit with Bargnani.

Al Jefferson - that's pretty close... he does have an actual post game though, and is a better rebounder.

Amare - also pretty close, Calderon could play the Nash role to set him up.

David West -- very similar player... hard to say that I'd prefer him to Bosh though.

David Lee -- hustle guy, but not really going to be the focus of your team.

So -- I don't see us trading Bosh at all... unless it is for a star SG or SF. There is no PF in the league that would be worth trading for at this point in their careers to fit with the Raptors lineup.

Davl,

You keep asking if Bosh is worth $30 million? (you asked this in yesterday's post as well)

Where are you getting this number from? I believe a max contract in the current collective agreement is based on percentage of revenue/cap (max 25% I believe) and years in the league. I believe that Bosh, based on years in the league and the current revenue and cap levels stands to make in the neighbourhood of 14 to 16 mil a year. Is there anyone that can confirm this?

I ask because it's been posted here more than once. If the number is wrong that is why. I did not check.

Bosh is making 14 + now I think the 25 percenet might be wrong I would gladly pay under 20 mil for Bosh if U are correct

No one has made $30 mil a year in the NBA since Jordan. And that was 3 collective agreements ago... Bosh would not be getting more than $20 mil.

Mas like I said undeer 20 is okee dokee with Me

So it seems we need a CAPology class in here.....LOL

When people are referring to the 30 mil, that is in reference to the extra money Bosh will receive over the life of a max contract with his home tem (Raptors); ie. they can offer him a bigger contract than other teams who would sign him away. This is why you see sign and trades in the NBA, because some guys want to leave their home clubs without sacrificing the extra dough.

It's also called the "Larry Bird" exception, where a team can exceed the salary cap to sign it's own player. That's why Toronto can give him more money than anyone else. Accordingly, it would work out to about 30 mil over the life of the contract, if he were to sign for the maximum years.

Rob

2nd Raps fan...

He can also sign for one more year (7 as apposed to 6). So the 30 mil difference also includes another year.

Forgot one: Milsap!

If Kirilenko and Milsap were healthy, I'm pretty sure everyone would make the

Bosh + Joey G
for
Kirlenko + Milsap

education is great tks

ok so what's the max bosh can make per year? gotta be more than 16 mil a year, no?

I agree w(hole)-heartedly with Vicious D and there would be a hole in my heart if they traded Bosh or couldn't re-sign him. Chris Bosh is a warrior and he's tried hard to be a leader on this team but it's hard to stay psyched when things are bad. And I think that goes for all of the players. Instead making that extra effort to chase the ball on defense, you relax because it doesn't matter. Instead of swinging the ball, you shoot it. Instead of thinking rebound, you back pedal. Why bust your behind when someone else isn't. You can do it for while but not forever. It all goes back to playing as a team, sharing the ball and being intense on defense. Look at the Mikwaukee game. No way for the Bucks to win but tell me you didn't wish the Raptors were moving the ball around as beautifully as the Bucks did.

Thanks for the capology info 2nd and MAS, and for the PF breakdown BC. Those numbers/names really put the situation into perspective.

Another thing I want to call out is Bosh's desire and workman-like effort. Has it been there EVERY GAME? No, but fans are quick to forget that one of the reasons CB4 was such a welcome change from Carter was that he was the ANTITHESIS of VC in terms of effort.

If you deal Bosh - even if you end up getting someone like Amare (actually ESPECIALLY Amare) I guarantee fans will be asking the same questions, perhaps more so.

As Joni Mitchell said - you don't know what you've got till its gone. VC blew up in Jersey after he left and the fans were irate...I for one don't want to go through that again seeing Bosh and Wade wrecking the East. Let's get the big guy some help.

You people are such sheep. One day you're pissed off, so you say trade Bosh, the next Franchise (in an excellent, if flawed) article says keep Bosh forever and ever and now y'all change your minds.

Forget it! Bosh is overrated. His ppg is great, but that is inflated by having an offense designed around him, which NO other team would do. His rebounding is average at best and once again inflated by having perhaps the worst rebounding team ever surrounding him. On top of this, he is one of the worst on-the-ball defenders I have ever seen.

Melon, you call him a "warrior"! That is a huge load of bull. He's a nice guy, but he takes many nights off on the defensive end and while he yells at Moon from time to time, he doesn't back it up by playing well on defense himself . . . EVER.

Trade him now--his value is sky high being an all-star again. (won't happen, but oh well.) We need many draft picks and some guys who can freakin' dunk--where is the athleticism????? Have you ever seen a bunch of do-nothing jump-shooters in your life?

When he leaves in 2010, watch his numbers plummet to 15ppg and 7rpg if he goes to a contender. If he goes to another loser team like the Raptors, his numbers will stay the same, but they'll never get out of the first round either. Mark my words.

MAS, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the Euro gambles. When they've been willing to spend the money necessary for quality, Europe has been a great source of players. Calderon, Parker, Garbajosa. I would strike a compromise whereby you look domestically for your starters, and perhaps look overseas for a savvy veteran backup or two to round things out. With our track record, we stand a better chance of recruiting European players then most other NBA teams.

Renato, Jordan Fanatic:
I would rather pay 22 million to an all-star who plays on the wing. Bosh NEEDS a great wing player if a team he's on will have sucess. A great wing player doesn't need an all-star PF to do the same. I'd also want a 22 million player to play well on both sides of the ball, and ideally play more then one position. Bosh lacks the bulk to cover two positions and play great defense against the stronger post players in the league. There are also long term durability concerns for a bigman with a build like his. In a perfect world, I'd play hardball with him and try to sign him for a figure around what Renato is suggesting. In reality, it would be easier to re-sign Bosh then to try and recruit another teams all-star caliber player to take his place. I would grudgingly give him the max , with the knowledge that at this point he's worth more to us then most other NBA teams.

End: 1st Quarter

1. Cleveland is a well oiled machine. It's nice to see.

2. Raps have no wing players, so I can't criticize the score - I mean for basketball that is a serious handicap. It's like getting angry or yelling at a disabled person for being disabled.

3. Jamario Moon's foul drawing stats are awful.

4. Jamario has got no guts or cohones and goes down like weak kneed boxer with a chin the size of a pizza.

5. I wish we could fast-forward this season. I think we will be just fine.

Aaron, you my friend are sooooo far off base it's not even funny. You think Bosh is a 15/7 guy on a good team???

I think that comment alone should disqualify you from posting anything for a week. You're talking out of your ass, and just pulling numbers out while you're doing it; come to think of it......Holy Shit, is this Stephen A. posting on hooplife under a pseudonym???

Well since you're with us Mr. Smith, let me inform you on Bosh. Great minds around the league have Bosh up there with the best; that includes the likes of Phil Jackson. Even a blowhard such as yourself, Mr. Smith, would have to admit that the Zen master knows a little bit more about talent than you.

Secondly, a great player (who isn't a dribble/drive + shooter type) cannot carry a team all by himself. It's just not possible. Put any of the best PF/C on this team instead of Bosh and I bet we would be about the same as where we are. Go ahead, replace him with Duncan, Howard, Garnett, Amare, whoever and then factor in what the Raps have gone through in terms of injuries and team chemistry problems. You get essentially the same result: a GREAT big on a mediocre TEAM.

Let's not forget that it's teams that win championships and not individual talents; see Spurs, Celtics, Lakers (Kobe + Shaq). Most of the elite teams have 2.5 all star caliber players (.5 for guys who are either marginal stars or over the hill veterans who provide leadership and depth); we have one (Bosh). Elite teams NEED those additional players because then defenses cannot collapse on your lone weapon.

It's actually pretty simple to figure out, but you have to get your head out of your ass to do it Stephen A. or Aaron, whoever you are.

Rob

I think JENGE just had the quote of the week!!!

"Raps have no wing players, so I can't criticize the score - I mean for basketball that is a serious handicap. It's like getting angry or yelling at a disabled person for being disabled."

That sums up this team so well that after I laughed out loud I reached a state of zen... realizing that to get mad at this francenstien of a roster for the rest of the season is a waste of time... Hey Raps, I ain't mad at ya... I'm just going to stop watching until someone gets traded/signed/waived/incarserated (Kapono should go to jail for stealing 6 million a year)...

2nd Raps Fan,
I'm with you on Stephen A... ehem... I mean Aaron.

watching this game just makes me wonder...why am i a fan... and why do i still think we can win this game?

Propers to triano for sitting jose for long stretches tonight - his d was one of hte reasons the team got down so much early unfortunately.

Well another game where our guards looked like the D-League bottom feeders. Prior to garbage time 3 for 23.

Aaron I hope you would read your post again and see how stupid it sounds. I know youre entitled for your opinion but lemme ask you one thing how do you fore tell the future just like that by saying he'd average 15 and 7 on a contender?