Friday the 13th - New Beginning or Bad Omen for the Toronto Raptors?

Vicious D,
I cannot concur with your stand as "After Bosh, the deluge". As good as a player he is he is not irreplaceable, skill wise and, as important, money wise. There was last week a discussion on a package offered by Golden state, centered around Biedrinis and a couple of wings that was more than palatable. The the resulting team would have been possibly as good skillwise while being less expensive than with Bosh in his Max contract. In Uk they have a say: There is more than one way to skin a cat. That is definitely the case with the Bosh situation. To make it work however, you have to be able to bargain from a position of strength. I would make an offer to Chirs and, if he refuses or he tries to buy time I would deal him, before i corner myself in another Vince-like situation.

According to reports the Nets offered Miami 'He who shall not be named' and an expiring contract for Marion - what do you think?

Should we be interested, or just too much baggage?

I definately think that miami won this deal, but we all know that colangelo has ways of making things work, even when people think it wont. I hope that BC re-signs AP and brings back Delfino..I initially hoped to see Delfino back this season, but would love to eventually see him back in a Raps uni. I think with Jermaine we lost our bit of toughness and swag, but hopefully he rubbed off on a few guys. I dont particularily like this trade for the raps ( I thought we had dodged this bullet when the rumors had died down) but I hope I end up eating my words and this works out..

This trade will only free up about 10 million this off season? That scares me to say the least!

What's all this stupid Delfino-love? Doesn't anyone remember how bad a team we were last year at 41-41?

While Carlos is not a bad player, if we're looking at Delfino, more Parker and re-signing Joey, how is this better off than a terrible 2007-08 team that got crushed in the playoffs?

This trade is a disaster, in my opinion. Why did WE have to give up a pick to get O'Neal AND give up a pick to get rid of him. Colangelo is showing himself to be in over his head. His trades and drafts have been dreadful since he got here and I think a change is needed at the top.

Realistically, the best player we can get this summer would be Turkoglu. So, here's next years' roster:

Starters:
Bosh, Bargnani, Turkoglu, Parker, Calderon.

Bench:
(some 1st rd. pick), Delfino, Ukic, Kapono, Humphries, Banks, maybe Jawai.

That's twelve guys. Add two players with Jake Voskuhl's talent and there you have it: the 2009-10 Raptors.

Can that roster win 50 games? Hell no. So what is Colangelo doing? I don't think even he knows anymore.

Re signing Parker for very little (under 3mil) make sense but I disagree with bringing back Delfino for anything more than 2mil. People seem to forget how inconsistent Delfino was; this guy was so up and down, some games he was solid and most others just ordinary. If we bring Parker and Delfino back we’d have the same mediocre wing players we’ve had for the last couple of years. Who is going to beat his defender off the dribble and take it to the rack? Delfino? Or Parker? We can’t go back to the same players that just play average to below average basketball on most nights. There is too much appreciating talent out there to go back to relying on AP and Delfino. So our wings for next year are likely to be Joey G., AP, Delfino, Kapono & FA. Regardless of who the FA is, star or not, does that line up of wings look much better than what we have today?

If this trade gives us 10-12 mil to spend next year, that gets you one "star" player and that’s it. We still need help upfront. Don’t mean to sound pessimistic but even though I’m a supporter of the trade, I’m not convinced BC is going to make good decisions with the $ we habe. I’d hate to see another Kapono signing.

Aron, I was writting my points abt Delfino while you were writting yours; we seem to see eye for eye FOR ONCE.

I disagree about the trade being a disaister and the pick is not a problem because of the conditions associated with it. Turkoglu is a good player but not the type of player that makes us better. Ben Gordon, Marvin Williams, Ron Artest have the attributes that the Raps desperately lack.

I know that BC stated that we only have 10-11 million in cap space, but how much space do we have before hitting the luxury tax (I know it's just an estimate)?

I too like the trade because as much as I loved JO's toughness, the 3 bigs just lacked chemistry, which I believe was a result of not having an athletic wing to compliment them. I hope Marion solves this issue. I do refuse to get overly excited until I see this new look Raps squad in action (the Cavs will be a good test).

I was very pissed off when I heard about the pick, but having heard BC in the conference call I get what he is trying to accomplish. If he uses the cash to buy a pick this year, the $3 million will probably net them a middle of the pack 1st rounder (around the 15th pick, maybe even slightly higher), which makes it a trade off. Because Miami will only touch this pick if it falls out of the top 15 the hope is that TO can build via the draft in the present/ near future and have a good enough core not to care about a 15th pick 5-6 years from now. This is how I understood it anyway. So there is a very good chance that the Raps have a lottery pick this year and a second mid first rounder this year making this year's draft even more interesting.

Renato - I don't think you can do that until midway through the next year. I don't think you can hold onto Bosh at any cost, so if you are out of the running early next year, the Raptors may need to ask Bosh to get his real opinion about staying before the summer. But, I'm not going to think about his trade until I see what Colangelo does from here until then. There's not a lot of time, but I kind of still expect Colangelo to make an additional move.

As for Delfino, I'm not all that into bringing him back either as he took off entire games defensively. He still hasn't learned that he needs to drive the ball consistently. And I'm really wary of seeing him hoist up a ton of 3s next year, but the Raptors may not have a better option coming off the bench. I don't think Delfino deserves a pay cut from a couple years ago, but if he asks for anything more than Garbo's salary, I would be very wary to give it to him. Like I said though, this only brings up more questions about Colangelo's work between now and the start of next season, so I'll be very interested to see how things proceed from here

Renato - I just reread what I typed and I think I need to clarify... Colangelo makes moves between now and next year. If the 2009-2010 season starts out as a bust or things don't look too promising, ask Bosh to get his opinion on things. Then, either trade him before the trade deadline (of the 2009-2010 season) or ride it out and resign Bosh. I think Bosh is a man of his word. There's no reason to panic right now and trade him. I never believed in that Golden State deal because it's all speculation in my book. It takes two to dance, so while people can toss numbers in trade machines and such, we often never know the actual details of theoretical trades.

My Two Cent:

If you read my past post I wanted JO traded mostly for cap space to acquire so good talent this off-season. As professional as he was (brings defense and toughness) plus the swagger but it was not worth 20 + million.

Let get into the Cap. I listen to BC conference call two times yesterday ( Good question Franchise...I think it was you) and regarding the Cap Room he said a few times base on his calculation we have 10-11 million dollar if we renounce the right to all over FA & R-FA

Initial I thought it would be somewhere around 15-16 million but as per BC it 10 - 11 million.

Now he clearly stated that if he resign Marion, AP, Delfino and Possibly Joey (I hope he does)PLUS A MID LEVEL PLAYER HE WILL STILL BE UNDER THE LUXURY TAX TRASH-HOLD

But with 11 million this is not possible? Which tells me there is SOME cap rules and clause we not familiar with. Thus, if I correct Cap is still around 16 million with ever one off the books THIS SUMMER including a few cap rules and techno jumbo blah, blah , blah.

As a matter of fact I so intrigue by this cap techno jumbo stuff I'm going to spend a few hours blogging and researching the whole cap room stuff and get back to you guys.

As for the winner in this trade in clearly the Heats.

Do I really care? No! BC was a beggar and beggar cannot be choices. We had to let go of JO for next season. Most of us does not realize that if we did not trade JO this team might be down for the next few years. This is why:

- Cap. With JO on the books even resigning AP and Joey wouldn't be possible unless BC goes over the Tax which MLSE does not want. Plus the idea of Delfino would not be possible. Note - I not be on the Delfino coming back. I would prefer to use is few millions to help get two mid level player rather than one.

- If CB4 requested to be traded we have room to get back a player or players of equal value because we now have cap room to get back a few contract without worry about it. This is big for a blockbuster move. really big factor!!!

- Possible of getting one or two mid level player sounds intriguing to me. With Marion, AP, Joey and possible Delfino we would have depth at the two and three.

Some of the reaction seems to neglect the team's win loss record. It also assumes that the GM is operating in isolation, always from the position of strength and that other teams don't have competent executives wanting to maximize their returns. Sometimes trades are mutually beneficial, giving both sides exactly what they need. It would be best if we got away from the mindset that trades have to be won or lost. They don't; your team just has to get better as a result. A solid defensive wing option who rebounds and is consistent to complement a PF and C with B & Bs collective skill set is a good trade. When healthy the team is more balanced, should have a better offensive flow, and hopefully more fun to watch. I'll wait to see how this plays out on the court before commenting further, but recent comments, from many whose opinion I respect on this board, make it sound as if the Raptors were supposed to get a dollar for their quarter and seem to ignore that they may have come away with 30 cents.

With all the analysis on this Marion trade, I have to think very few posters have a true knowledge of the CBA and its’ convoluted cap rules – myself included.

Which leads me to a number of questions.
Is the 1st round draft pick really as big as some people make it to be? I mean ... look at Hibbert, as some have mentioned.
What is our REAL cap room next year? And can we sign free agents / make trades, using up that 10 or 11 million (we’re supposed to have), and then resign Marion using an exception (Doug Smith mentioned Bird rights)?

Does resigning AP (or others) affect only our luxury tax position, and not that soft cap. Like I said yesterday, rocket science is probably an easier field then being a Capologist.

How the hell can one decide on the merits of this trade, without having a f*@king clue as to the complexities of the CBA? I think we just need to play this out, and see where it takes us, before we decide our own crystal balls are working perfect.

As for JO, I liked the guy. I think he was partially responsible for Bargnani's current state. But I was also concerned that if he stayed, it might've affected AB's continued progression. No one could have predicted Bargs coming out of his funk at the start of 09 (when O'Neil was hurt). So BC had to adapt. Let's hope he continues to adjust for things like that.

And one last thing. Is it me, or was Mitch the stick that tripped up the Raptor wheel. Joey, AB ... who knows? And to say we've had a worse record since, forgets how injuries have affected a team that was lean to begin with.

First thing.... this is NOT the end of the dealing for BC... no chance. So all these people that keep ripping on this move, please be patient and see what happens between now and next Thursday. Let's all take a breath and save the BC ripping until the deadline passes.

Second... how anyone in their right mind can say that the raptors with O'neal were SUBSTANTIALLY better than the raptors with Marion is on crack. O'neal's knees were always in question and while I loved his spirit, he just didn't help the raps where they were/are lacking most - defensive speed at the 1,2 and 3. The other amazing quality about Marion is his CONSISTENCY... let's hope this rubs off on some of the other guys.

If nothing else, the raps are status quo with a LOT less salary hanging over head.

I just don't see how this can be a bad thing. O'neal was NOT taking us to the promise land. EVER.

Now let's look at the good.... Bargs is flourishing, Bosh is playing well, Marion should help cover some of the defensive liability of Jose, Roko is rockin, Parker has shown another dimension to his game, Kapono (if he's still around for long) is starting to heat up and most importantly of all Voskhul is going to get more minutes which means more pain for the opposing teams!!!! (last one was kind of a joke)

Anyways, I'm excited to see what else BC is going to do and how the team adjusts to Marion (and vice versa).

Go Raps!

First off, I"m still unclear about the draft pick. As I understand it, it's lottery protected until 2015, with us giving up a second rounder in 2010 if we don't have to give them our first rounder next year. If this is true, I remain thoroughly pissed off at BC and amazed at Pat Riley. In essence, the next time we lose in the first round and need to use the draft to fill a hole, we will instead be stocking the Heat's roster. I think the worst case scenario discussed appears to be the most likely on at this point. Riley has managed to turn a Fat Shaq into 2 draft picks and a still-above-average JO. Compare this to BC, who has turned a highly-valued young forward in CV3 into TJ, and then TJ plus a mid-firstrounder plus a valuable expiring deal in Rasho (would Golden State give us Magette for RAsho's deal and Joey G.? my guess is yes, in a heartbeat) into minimal cap space and a roster-screwing "dead money" contract in Banks. Anyways, I"ve been through this before, but ultimately my point is that the lack of a plan by BC has proved costly thus far. Also, any first rounder he buys is not going to be 15th or higher; more likely, it'll be at the very end of the first round, when a team like San Antonio or the Lakers sell their pick because they don't have any room on their roster for a young guy. I'm also flabbergasted at BC's infatuation with Delfino and Parker. Those are the types of players who are great when they are 8-9th men and are contributing with very appealing contract in the 2-3 mil range. They are not, in any way shape or form, the types of wings you want doing most of the heavy lifting.

Agree with AGM , chemistry just wasn't there with the big 3.
Do not think I like this deal. Really depends on how BC handles the offseason. I'll reserve judgement.

Always liked the thought of having JO's expiring contract as an asset, my initial feel is BC got fleeced on this deal. The best player in this deal was O'Neal, the best player for the dollar is Moon, who's contract is minimal, and we give up a first rounder? Not saying Marion is a bad player but his best stats came playing in a D'Antoni coached system with the best PG suited for such system in Steve Nash. And who knows if he resigns?

I'm happy to see the deal go down, although admittedly, kind of like I was glad when Smitch got canned.

Ok, this will be my last prediction of all time if this doesn't happen:

Kapono gets his third crown tonight, blasting him to his highest ever perceived value around the league.....and we finally find a sucker to bite on a trade.

Maybe Kapono and Marcus Banks for a lump of shit.....at least it would improve the team. (Sorry JK)

One thing I like about BC is that he doesn't sit back and wait. Whether good or bad (postivies to both), BC will make moves.

Woke up this morning feeling a little less happy about the trade. After posting this article at about 3 AM, I went to bed thinking that Marion was an upgrade over JO in terms of the team's starting line-up chemistry (allowing Bosh and Bargs to play their natural positions.) The other big piece as I mentioned in the post, was that BC had more options this off-season, both big pluses over having JO around as a cap-killer.

But this morning as I lay in bed pondering the basketball fiesta of today, I started worrying about Colangelo's infatuation with former players. If he keeps Marion as it sounds like he intends to do, and as discussed, seems bound and determined to keep Parker and Graham, and bring back Delfino, how is this team really going to be any different from last season? They might be a bit better, but unless Graham or Roko (the only two upside players on this roster currently) take their games to completely new levels, I'm not sure how this is going to result in a top team in the East. There's always the hope that Colangelo hits a home run in the draft, but so far his history hasn't given fans much hope.

It seems that Michael Grange had similar concerns in his blog, and he makes a good point about keeping Marion happy in Toronto:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090214.RAPTORS14/TPStory/Sports

That being said, we've still go the rest of the season to go through here, and perhaps the Marion experiment doesn't work and BC looks at other options. Even if that's not the case, I think he's fooling himself if he thinks Delfino and Parker are the answers to getting into the second round, especially as Grange points out, because the team is going to need some back-up help up front and there's not a lot of money to go around.

The best thing still may be for this team to fall as far as possible in the standings...it might be the wake-up call Colangelo needs in terms of both realizing that the talent surrounding Bosh, Andrea and Jose isn't good enough, and that he needs to score in this upcoming draft - maybe more than once.

Tinman said:

Always liked the thought of having JO's expiring contract as an asset, my initial feel is BC got fleeced on this deal. The best player in this deal was O'Neal,

- Are you kidding me? O'Neal is frequently injured, past his prime offensively, and statistically has been below average for several years now. The Matrix on the other hand is statistically still one of the top SF in the league - despite a decline in his offense (which has more to do with the slower pace and fewer touches he gets than any decline in his skill set). BY FAR the best player in this deal is the Matrix.

Tinamna: the best player for the dollar is Moon, who's contract is minimal, and we give up a first rounder?

- Moon is at best average for his position and I think we all agree that is his ceiling. I for one won't miss him.

This team had two glaring needs; 1. a wing defender and 2. a back up point guard, and we had one very trade-able chip who also happened to be redundant for his position now that Bargs has found his groove; Jermaine O'Neal.

So BC trades our one asset and gets back to the two things we need. He also trades a top 14 protected pick for cash considerations that can be used to buy a pick.

And yet there is this gnashing of teeth everywhere! Am I missing something? The team is clearly better with the Matrix and Banks than with O'Neal, and the pick isn't going to be one that breaks us. We also will likely have Delfino back next year and he can backup three positions, so why all the negativity in Raptorland?

I can be accused of being pollyanaesque at times, but we just dealt an aging, breakind down center with a massive contract for one of the best defenders in the league at a position where we desperately needed a defender.

Clearly BC is a terrible GM. Not.

Read an interesting quote from that Cleveland Blog "Waiting for Next Year".

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=7844

"Personally, second-year forward Jamario Moon may wind up being Miami’s biggest prize in this whole deal. Give it a year or two. Once that kid polishes his offensive game, he has the makings of a younger Marion."

It always amazes me how our southern neighbours make judgments – igloos being a good example – based upon never having been here, or never having paid attention to what goes on in the "frozen tundra up north". Okay, maybe it’s been a little cold lately, but I don’t imagine Cleveland is so nice at this time either.

In 2 years time (2011), Moon will be turning 31. To say he’s a kid, would only be true if you defined years spent in the NBA. But to say he has the "makings of a younger Marion" – Please! What is this fascination with Moon? Have I been watching something that was not? Have I really been watching Miami, thinking it was the Raps? Damn … when Wade passes to that Marion dude, I mean Moon guy, that’s like poetry in motion.

This is why I can’t for the life of me, understand how we can critique this trade, when so many opinions are all over the map. Or based on "what have you done for me lately".

As for this whole "up in arms" mentality, regarding 1st round picks, if we can buy a late round choice for a few million bucks, what does that say about the pick we gave to Miami? Maybe we can buy it back, sometime in the future. It just surprises me that they have such little value, that mere money can pull one away.

what's not being mentioned, and maybe rightly so, is how bargs is going to benefit from this trade. not just the rest of this year by being the undisputed 5, but what he does this summer to get better.

is it not possible he comes back next year with better low post moves, maybe even a bit stronger, perhaps with a better mid range game, more feel for the game, and become a legit, above average C??

maybe he and bosh become the dynamic duo next year (and possibly even at this year's end) we've all been waiting for?

and what of roko's progress to next year? can he add a jump shot and come back with a more well rounded game and be the legit second option off the bench at the 1?

and what of jawai next year?

I just think we're looking forward to a lot of scenarios that might play out but not work out, but none of them factor in the raptors own development. which I'm pretty sure BC is.

now it might not work out that way, but it should at this point with all the speculation flying around, at least be included.

so we take a $4 million player in banks who is bust. we give up a future 1st round pick and give up moon. also we take marion (if we play well for the rest of the season our draft pick will be less intriguing and marion will obviously ask for more money if the team it playing better, which will cut out the cap room we expect to have which will likely be used to pay for graham and ap back) which in my opinons sucks. from my view, im not really thrilled about this trade, its nice to see change but im really having a tough time indulging what may be the most important trade in raps history to date.

is marion that much beeter than moon? also moon was payed less than a million, where as marion is making more than 16 times his paycheck.

i understnad where BC is coming from and we do need cap relief inored to have a different looking team next year since oneals contract was burdening our future (nest year) but we are taking banks' contract which makes me upset aswell.

im expecting BC to make at least abnother trade before the deadline, possible kapono because he and banks' salray added together is a waste for this organization paying bench players who dont play way too much money. just read this article http://raptors.realgm.com/articles/55/20090214/burnt_on_the_edges_of_the_page/ from realgm.

ive been a huge BC supporter ever since he landed here but now im really questioning his moves. we traded away CV31 and matt bonner basically for shawn marion and a bad contract in banks, whio will likely never play...at all. they were both raptorfan favorites and they are both playing at a high level on good/better team than the raps. BC better fix this team fast or im gonna freak. im willing to trade bosh and possible calderon...if this teams continues to fail. will portland make a deal for calderon, and would gs make one for bosh. these are two teams that can land us some good promisin gyoung players and if this team is still playing the way it has, im expecting big moves before that special free agency of stars.

also i believe oneal had a great impact on this team especially on bargs. do you think bargnani would be this good if it werent for oneal. it seems like bargs is learning how to take charges and block more shots, and where did he learn it from, by watching oneal and by playing alongside him. for those of you who think bargs is going to improve greatly from this deal, think again because oneal was the catalysts to bargnani imporvements. bargs' defense and rebounding all have shown promise after the arrival of oneal. im sure il mago will improve but i believe playing with oneal would have likely taken his game to new heights, and improve drastically. seems like bargs is taking note of the swagger oneal possess and uses in his game to excel in this league. cheers to oneal and wish him the greatest in his future with miami.

Who was the last NBA team to win it all or even get close (conference championships let's say) with so many doubts surrounding their core and bench. We are so utterly far from the elite and will need a true Portland-esque rebuilding phase to dig ourselves out of this one. Ultimately, how far has anything Colangelo himself done taken us in a generally positive development direction? After next year, we may actually find ourselves in a worse spot then when Babcock was mercifully relieved of his duties. I am totally aware that Colangelo will definitely have until the off-season of 2010, so that MLSE can leverage his familiarity with Bosh as a tool for retaining his services, but I would personally fire him today. To have been drawn into including the pick, protected or not, Moon, and not Solomon; not to mention, the fact he exclusively sought the services of aging former players as a means of improvement perfectly illustrates his at best, average, at worst, embarrassing, management skills.

Put me firmly in the optimist side of this trade. We all have to sit back and see how they play. This team has been screaming out for an athletic perimeter defender for years. Ever since we drafted Bargs, we have needed a rebounding SF to compensate for Bargnani's weakness on the glass. We now have perhaps the best rebounding SF in the league, and one of the top defenders at his position.

Having the Matrix has a huge knock on effect on our awful perimeter defence. Parker now slides over and covers the second threat, or even the opposing PG. This in turn means Jose's is guarding the third 'small' option. Now Bargs and Bosh can play man without worrying about the constant penetration.

With respect to Marion's poor attitude, wanting to be the first option in PHX, I somewhat welcome it. When O'Neal came to TO he made it clear that he knew it was Bosh's team. I don't think it does CB4 and harm to have another legit player pushing his top dog status.

Hell, even Banks is a tough defender that likes to drive to the hoop. Don't get me wrong, I still think Ukic is the one being groomed, but I'm willing to give Banks a chance.

End of the day we are all fans, we all want the Raps to do well. We have put up with loads of disappointment, but that shouldn't prevent us from hoping for the best. There is potential for this trade to really improve our club, I just don't get why everyone is so keen to throw BC under the bus before a single game has been played.

What do you think, if we pick up Gerald Henderson from Duke in the upcoming draft. This kid looks to be just what the doctor ordered.

Check him out, Blocking shots and taking to hole. nasty!

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/gerald-henderson

PS Moon sucks. Has for ages, if this was a week ago we all would be bitching about him. Now he is traded and we all agree that he is the second coming of Marion?!?! With Marion on board, and JG developing we had no need for him.

Reading people's comments bodes well in one way that JO never really benefited from. When JO came in we were all expecting the twin towers, Smitch was watching tape of the Admiral and Duncan. If people's expectations of Marion are as low as 'a slightly better Moon', then I dare say there are a lot of fans that are in for a very pleasant surprise.

Yeah I would fire the BC too. But if you stand at some MLSE's excutive point of view, this trade is awesome. First, you don't have to pay O'neal's 21 million dollars next year. Every body assume BC would either re-sign Marion or use his salary to sign somebody that just as good, meaning making just as much money. With enconomy like this maybe they just want to save some money period. Second, it really give raptor fans reasons to watch the last games of a brutal season. That is a lot of revenue, and attendance is down for a lot of teams.

Now on a basketball point of view this trade is not really that good. But besiness wise it saves millions of dollars in salary, and generates another millions of dollars in increase revenue, and I forgot to mention the 3 million Miami gives us. So is BC going to get fired? Not until bosh leaves in 2010.

also, what's occurred to me is what does this mean for a nash acquisition? does it mean anything? not sure it does, but it certainly adds another layer to the 'bring nash home' tangent.

Here’s a post (from PalmBeachPost.com), that puts a fanatical Rap fan in perspective.
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So, who cares about then. 2010 is 2010.

Where are the Heat now?
Now, they have Jermaine O’Neal, a rickety 31-yr old half court slow-it-down center with a career touch rate (Usg%) of 26%.
.
.
Shorter: The typical fools who expect O’Neal to add his 14/7 to Miami’s production without any disruption, loss or decrease in touches + flow to high-touch players like Wade or Beasley if/when/whenever they’re on the floor together, are probably the same fools who "really" expect James, Wade or Bosh to leave $30-$35 million on the table for browner pastures.
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I’m not sure if this is a Heat fan’s post – whatever – but this perspective is one that we fail to appreciate from our side (as a Rap fan). That by getting Marion, we improve our chances of keeping Bosh, and Miami not so much at getting him. This "Miami" fan takes the tact (indirectly), that Riley has just made his job that much harder of pulling Bosh away. An odd, but not so odd perspective. But since I’m on this, I have to disagree with matching James & Re-signing in the same sentence.

The article (by Chris Perkins of Palm Beach Post) that generated the above comment, started off its’ report with this gem:

"Count on newly-acquired Jamario Moon, not rookie Michael Beasley, becoming the eventual starter at small forward. That’s the job vacated by Shawn Marion ........ "

I kinda feel sorry for Miami. Can you imagine having Moon and Marion on a Raptor team, and Jay showing up for a media scrum, to say he`s starting Moon tonight. I can imagine the comments on this site.

Then again, maybe it’s good nobody knows who we are, and where Toronto is. If our 3 point man does well during the All-Star festivities, we might see a Kapono for Stoudemire ...... straight up. :-)

Papa,
After reading your post, I realized there was one more point with this Marion trade.

Nash.

If one was to open a Crystal Ball, and look into the year 2010, might it be possible that the Raptors could consist of the following:

Calderon & Nash (at a Canadian discount – he will be 36)
A prime SG (part of a Ukic trade – assuming he excels), and a sophomore back-up (from the 2009 draft class)
Marion, and Joey
Bosh, and a quality backup
Bargnani, and a quality backup (maybe Nesterovic)

If not that, then maybe a close facsimile.

Hopefully all this talk of only being able to resign guys, inlcuding Kapono is just so the fans are not chanting for BC's head if he can not deliver. Howland and Franchise, I have attached a list of notable FAs and different teams cap room to an email I sent you - if you want to use it for anything.

Sorry, I just read what I wrote, and it did not make any sense. I meant hopefully, we will be able to do more than resign our current guys + Delfino (don't know why I wrote Kapono - probably because I am always thinking about how little I like him).

I'm not sad to see Moon go; will Joey step it up from the bench? Now, we can't blame Moon for defensive lapses and softness in driving to the hoop. Hoping this will increase the chances for Joey to prove his worth (but, sheesh, how many chances is this guy going to take?).

JC, Bosh and Marion form a pretty good top three. As Archibald said and I concur completely, having Marion allows a switch on D: Marion covers the best scorer, Parker switches to #2, and JC can get a bit of help covering his man. Bosh and Bargs (who is playing better D over the last month) can cover the middle.

We now have a legit backup to third-stringer (Solomon, buh-bye)...overall, I kinda like this; JO was too often injured, and obstructed Bargs' development. Marion is a more versatile defender, and this *could* mean a better over-all defensive team approach on the court, as mentioned above.

Regarding draft picks: after top 3 or 4, it gets to be a crap shoot. I would rather have a proven player than a highly-rated prospect who can blow up in the big time.

Marion wanted a long-term contract, so I doubt we will see him in a Raps uniform next year.

But, the proof is on the court: agreed, how will the Raps respond against the Cavs?

Well written blog. One thing Nash and Phoenix never ran anything for Marion. everything was out of the pick and roll w/ Stoudemire, which was one of Marion's biggest whines at Phoenix.

Well...that was probably the worst All-Star Saturday night in my opinion since the year Ceballos won the dunk contest.

Rudy got robbed (can we stop with the biased judging yet??), Nate and Dwight put on a fun show for sure (Nate over Dwight was unreal) but the rest of the night? I mean, if that wasn't the worst 3-point shooting contest ever...how about picking REAL SHOOTERS next year? Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk, Peja...these are the types who should have been competing with Kapono, not Rashard Lewis and Mike Bibby.

In fact, I found the D League game to be the best event so far. Can BC put a call in and get James White up here please? Toronto had him in the camp which resulted in Hassan Adams' signing but he's a million times better (and more mature) now. We actually interviewed him and while he had a bad rep in Cincinnati, I'm not sure at this stage why the Dinos wouldn't try to bring some of these kids up for cheap. (It's not like we don't have the roster spots thanks to injuries.) Sure, it might mean going a bit over the cap...but frankly new talent has to come from somewhere and White is the explosive athlete and scorer this team needs. Here's a great write-up on him from Draftexpress:

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/D-League-Blog/#James-White-Knocking-on-the-NBAs-Door-Again-3106

Also, interesing note from the Miami papers today:

• An Eastern Conference scout said, for now, Jamario Moon is the best option at starting small forward, over Jones and injured Dorell Wright: ``Moon's offensive game is limited, but he's a defender with toughness and much better than Yakhouba Diawara. He's more than serviceable. This trade was highway robbery for Miami.''

• Moon, who is shooting 47.3 percent and had the best on-court/off-court differential of any Raptors player...

It's going to be VERY interesting to see how Moon does in Miami. Like many posters here, I think the US has no idea about the REAL Jamario and while he is a great help defender thanks to his athleticism, if they think Beasley can't guard his man one-on-one, Moon's making like Jack Nicholson as the Joker:

"Wait till they get a load of me..."

Finally - Eitan B, we're big fans of Gerald Henderson here at the HQ, but I'm not sure he's exactly the slasher the team needs. As a huge Duke fan, it's tough for me to criticize but for all of Henderson's ridiculous hops, he's not really a slasher. He's got a certain smoothness to his game that actually reminds me of a much more athletic Anthony Parker. Do I think he'd help Toronto next year? For sure. But right now I'd rather have a kid like Evan Turner from Ohio State.

Sometimes I wonder how much work some scouts are actually doing to justify continued employment by their teams. I suppose we can't expect someone to be watching Jamario Moon play all the time, but honestly...why the sudden Moon love? I'm starting to suspect that what happens is opinions are formed early, say based on his initial good stretch of games last year, and no one takes the time to revisit them. This year on the Fan 590 I heard a U.S. based basketball reporter who they have on the morning show regularly comment on how Bargs has always been horrible defensively and concluded that he hadn't watched any Raptors games this year. It gets ridiculous sometimes and that's why the guys who actually put in the work get a load of respect from me.

Also, I have never in my life seen Marcus Banks play a game, so I have no idea whether he is a good player or a bad player. Last year Joey Graham was so far buried on the bench that an outside observer would be quick to label him a bust. Do we really know for sure until he is maybe given a chance to play in a system that works for him? I mean Jamario Moon wasn't even in the league until last year, so it's hard to say what we really know until we see it for ourselves.

I keep reading that we need to draft a wing, preferably a SG. Well, if we re-sign Marion, AP and Joey and bring back Delfino (with a cap hold of $5.4 mill) we are set at the wing positions: AP, Delfino, Kapono, Marion and Joey. We will be paper thin in the bigs dept: Hump, Voskhul and Jawai? Hump and Jawai are intriguing howevre they are no stalwarts for the future. I'd draft a big to shore up our bench, preferably a PF with Bosh's knees (which is another concern in regards to signing him to a max contract...).

THE TRADE, a GOOD, necessary move to create maximum in flexibility, short, mid, and long term to adjust a roster that for whatever reason was not performing as expected.

Does anyone think that BC has not talked, unoficially to Bosh, re his thoughts on resigning, and Marion on coming to TO, and possibly resigning, if it's a good fit, even tho he cannot comment on either ? He is fully aware of Marion thru having drafted him, and his relatioship in Phoenix.

Some Numbers to consider, in simple arithmetic re future.

Current CAP $58.680mil
Current TAX $71.150mil
Rap's Now $70.900mil
incl Marion/Banks
As BC mentioned the guessing now is the BRI will be less this year and the nubers may go down.

'09/10 contracts $46.189mil
JC,CB,AB, Ukic, JK, Jawai,
Humph, Banks - 8 Players

Leaves $24.961mil available to sign a minimum 5/6 players
in real $$$$$, excluding Cap holds and Qualifying offers to Delfino and Graham, who are RFA's this year, and any other cap holds.

Marion, AP, Graham, Voskuhl, Solomon, #1 Pick, etc. , or replacement players if available as FA's. Rap's have their #1 this year and $3mil from the deal for a 2nd this year or next if a benefit to their needs.

Even tho BC has given a road map in his media phone call its just todays vision, subject to change, and a lot of time till the summer and next year.

The focus now is the next 27 games, and how Marion and Banks contribute to the results.

Here’s more ammunition to reinforce how Toronto is off everybody’s radar – specifically those down south.

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/basketball/nba/article976082.ece

Toronto Raptors
Wasn't this team supposed to challenge in the Eastern Conference? Instead, it is last in the Atlantic Division, fired its coach (Sam Vincent) and traded its best player (Jermaine O'Neal). Yep, the Raptors are even worse than the Knicks.

I really don't see why everyone is talking about Toronto getting taken in this deal. Yall are forgetting how this deal really shakes out.
1. Miami gets Oneal. Hmmm, a player who has missed an average of about 25 games a season over the last like 4 years and who is over 30. Oh, and let us not forget that they are stuck with him for next year. Carlos Boozer is going to be a FA this offseason, maybe Miami can sign him..... oh wait. Does anyone think that adding Oneal is going to allow Miami to go beyond the 2nd round (hell they may not get by the first round) so I would hardly say they won this deal because Oneal is the best player. That is like saying you won the marriage game because you got the smarter of Britney Spears over Jessica Simpson.
2. Moon goes to Miami. Did Moon have a really good game on Wednesday? This was nothing more than throw in so Miami could have a player at the SF to make up for Marion get shipped out.
3. The first round pick. This pick is so meaningless. Name a player drafted by raptors outside of the lottery (and not named Mo Pete) who ever contributed? Joey Graham is about the only one and even he has a lot of detractors. True, Miami can draft better than Toronto but after the lottery, it becomes a crap shoot and if the Raptors suck until 2015 we will have bigger issues than the fact we lose a lottery pick then.
Toronto
1. Marion. I am not a huge Marion fan. He was very good in Phoenix but Toronto isn't as free wheeling as the Suns so I am just hoping for some rebounds and 12 points from him. His true gift to Toronto will be in the offseason. As long as BC doesn't do something stupid like re-up him to a max deal, this is a win.
2. Marcus Banks. His contract is too much and for too long (for what you will get from him) but I do not see him being an issue. Even if he ends up being a complete waste of a roster position we can always buy him out near the end of the next year and take the cap hit then and free up his salary for 2010. That is the worst case scenario, his best case scenario is he can contribute 10-20 minutes per game and provide some defense.
3. 3 Mill in cash. If the Raptors don't make the playoffs this year, we will have a lottery pick plus money to buy a pick from someone which could help down the road. Maybe they can package it with Kapono to get him off the books too.

At the end of the day, Oneal was stealing minutes from AB and Bosh and it is no suprise that when all three were playing the Raptors had a hard time winning. I don't think it is a coincedence that Toronto won most of their games after Smitches firing when only 2 of the 3 were playing. From my view point, this is a net positive trade as pointed out by others, Bargnani gets more minutes and Bosh and AB both don't have to wait until Oneal gets out of the paint to attack the rim (it may not make a difference but at least they can no longer use that as an excuse).

Re: RapthoseLeafs,

Sam VINCENT Lol

I'm surprised they didn't go all the way with their ignorance and state his name as Sam Vincent Lamar Carter

A lot of interesting takes on this deal, but I think the best point was made above (I think Franchise) about whether Marion is really the dribble penetration/crunch time swing man this team needs. This has to be the most salient point, with respect to what needs this trade is supposed to address. I think the problem may be compounded by the fact that BC will probably overpay to keep Marion (I think BC has already made up his mind to re-sign Marion). The problem with this scenario is that (provided Parker is re-signed also) it continues to leave us without a bona fide clutch performer, since Marion is not that.

My personal sentiment is that, all things being equal, I put Odom and Turkoglu ahead of Marion if you're going to pay 12 million per season for their services at SF. I would even have Big Al Harrington ahead of Marion on a wish list if he wasn't so damn allergic to rebounds, and provided he could be had for around 7-8 million.

However, all that question marks aside, if BC can re-sign Marion for around 9-10 mil per, and bolster the bench the Raptors will be in the playoffs again in 2010; meaning Bosh will likely re-sign. Which leaves us a good mid to late round draft pick (Ginobili) from being a contender.

Rob

P.S-Those people who question whether Bosh is a legit Franchise cornerstone are clinically insane! Please name for me the players who you would rather build around, then sprinkle in some realism (ie. whether they can be had) and see who you're left with; and then tell me who on that pared down list is a better building block for a franchise than a 24 year old, all star power forward, who gives you 20/10 and is a bona fide leader who displays all of the character traits you want in the guy representing your team.

Good luck with that!

I think the jury should remain out on this trade until we see what BC does this summer.

I am all for singing Marion (the number thrown around, because of a shrinking cap, greater fiscal prudency, and a lack of teams with cap space... is 8 million/3yrs... totally fair) and our other free agents to reasonable contacts (Delfino included) drafting a solid prospect (need dependent on Marion signing or not), and singing a quality MLE player.

The most important thing to remember is that the Raptors now have options this summer, where last week they had none. That alone is something to get excited about (whether or not you like the assets moved and acquired in the trade).

I actually love the 3 million in cash. If a player BC likes drops he can be acquired at a lower cap hit. Sure drafting higher gets you a better chance at what you want, but having cash to buy in at the poker table known as the draft has it's advantages. I fully expect BC to do this sooner than later to help our depth.

I think the real debate right now, as it relates to this season, is whether or not BC is done dealing. If he can unload Kapono for a big the Raps will have better balanced bench for a push for the 8th (I say this because I believe no professional competitor will ever voluntarily tank a season until it the math says their effort is in vain).

Now... is it too much of a pipe dream to think BC can send Kapono to OKC for Collison? We need a big, and eat an extra year of salary... and he's rumored to be on the block. If not Collison then a similar big...I think that is the most pressing need of this team as it stands today.

all star weekend has to be the biggest waste of a fans time. Glad its over

When does Hump come back?

I have been doing a lot of research on the cap. What Franchise said he heard during the conference call is true, we will not have cap space despite getting Marion's expiring contract. (CBA rules explaining this are quite complex). If we wanto to though, we will be able to resign any of our current players, resign Delfino, sign our draft pick, and bring in a player/some players using our MLE (we can use our bi annual exception if we have it - not sure if we used it last year or not). If BC is careful with how much he resigns guys for and for how long, he can hopefully do so in a way not to jeopardize too much cap flexibility beyond next year.

Nigel - I believe it was six weeks after his injury, which I believe was the 21st

Just another interesting coaching change as Terry Porter is fired in Phoenix. Never liked the appointment, but man, I can't believe that's yet another mid-season coaching change.

Since Day 1, I was not a fan of the O`Neal trade and my love for all things Raps has been seriously tested. Of late, I even stopped checking this site as it`s just too depressing. This trade makes it worse.

I always thought having three natural PFs starting was a bad idea. While I was in favour of an O`Neal/Marion trade, the Raps once again gave up too much. Packaged together, Jamario and a first rounder are trade assets in their own right. Basically trading them for Marcus Banks sucks. We now $10 mill in crappy contracts tied up now in 2010 with Kapono/Banks.

I`m happier to have Marion over O`Neal plus I think he should be a good fit with Calderon at the point. However, having him possibly for only 20+ games, once again, does not mean throwing away Moon and a first rounder.

Looking at future options, who are we going to get if we don`t resign Marion? Artest? Could have gotten him cheap last summer and, on paper at least, would have filled that SF void in every area in which the Raps were in need (Off/Def/toughness). For started quality players, we would have one PG and two PFs. I would like to think that BC has a trick up his sleeve, though unless Bargs or Marion is involved, I don`t see anything happening this week. Now Marion and Garbs for Garbs ex-numbersake? This is just ridiculous....

Thanks D.

Another question, Who are the glue players in the NBA? Parker seems to be the glue guy for the Raptors right now. Is there anyone similar in stature to Barkley out there?