The JO Era Comes to a Quick End

wow...should make things interesting..does banks start at the 1 while Jose is injured? or does AP continue to play the point and kapono start at the 2 again? some interesting decisions to be made for colangelo and triano

it definitely makes sense, but too bad we had to give up moon AND take on banks' crappy contract. moon's a decent backup 3, decent rebounder (when he's focused), would have actually been nice having him backup Marion and then Joey. Oh well, still not a bad move in my mind. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Doug Smith is reporting that "Toronto is also sending a conditional draft pick to the Heat and getting cash considerations in return, according to league sources."

We will need more details on this but if this pick has any value at all I suddenly become less enthused. I hope this is not BC tossing picks around again as he is known to do. Rookie salaries are a God send to teams not willing to pay the luxury tax.

agree with howland - we need our picks!

I agree, there should be NO picks going to the Heat if we gave up Moon also; the only way that makes sense is if we gave them a 2nd rounder and got back Joel Anthony for some Canadian content.

Like I said previously, BC's mindset must be that he wants to retain Marion this summer because taking back Banks sucks; he is going to be the 3rd PG behind Calderon and Ukic, so he's not gonna be a factor on this team, barring injuries.

The question now becomes, how much are you willing to give Marion to stick around? 4 years @ 10-11 million a year?

I mean the two competing considerations are whether Marion can return to old form and put up 18 & 10 and is worth doling out the cash; OR do you see if you can use the space to sign another SF like Odom of Turkoglu, but risk ending up with nothing or having to overpay for one of these guys????

Rob

P.S---somebody asked why Turkoglu would leave the Magic; the answer is that the Magic will not spend the money necessary to keep Turk and he is redundant on that team b/c it should be Rashard playing the 3, not the 4. Same deal with Odom. It's all about cap considerations and whether these guys will take less money to stay with their current teams or come over to the Raps for a pay increase.

As much Heat (pun intended) it will be hard to replace Moon's numbers so cheaply!
We now have 2 rapators in the playoffs lol

Nice work getting this up so fast. It will be nice once this is your job. I can only imagine how good the already great site will be then. If you have not had time to run the financial numbers for the team going forward - check your email. It is in one of my many messages.

How does this affect our team?

Marion's WoW score: .219
Banks: .034

Vs

Moon: .117
O'Neal: .010

Now these scores reflect the first quarter or so of the season, but historically O'Neal hasn't been above average for Wow in quite some time.

Which means we traded a below average center (with injury problems) and his $23M salary along with an average SF for a below average PG in banks and a SF who is twice as good as the average SF in the league in Marion.

Big. Win.

If we can sign Marion to an extension I will officially wet my pants.

Bedhead,

Signing Matrix to an extension could be great, but before we pull out the depends, let's see how much $ he is asking for.

wow!! I am one of the guys that was overly excited of JO coming to TO. But now that he is leaving i feel kinda sad. he was a class act in TO. never complained except to the refs and i will miss his toughness. Bon voyage JO i hope you will go far in the playoff. Welcome matrix.

Taking on Banks salary may be bad but giving up Moon is not a big deal IMO. Yeah, he's cheap but there is no way that Moon belongs as a sometimes starting SF in the league - which is what he was for the Raps. Can we replace him for cheap? Scour the D league and you'll find multiple suitable replacement, James White and Ronald Dupree are couple names that come to mind and remind me of Moon. Besides the New Joey has easily surpassed Moon as a capable backup SF.

Apparently it is a conditional first round pick.

That's a hefty price.

what are the conditions? i wonder. hefty indeed. how can we expect to build a contenda if we keep chucking our draft picks, especially 1st rounders?

i too will miss JO - he's a character guy, class act, imo.

so lets see, BC has essentially turned CV who played the #4 spot as our resident star, into a quality #3 after all of the permutations and combinations. Bravo!!

Just listening to the FAN - knives are out for JO. Calling him a primadonna.
Looks like BC is playing the money game this season as opposed to next. We got Marion for 2 months. Conditional draft pick is part of the package.

Wonder what Marion is feeling, last season traded from the playoff bound Suns to struggling Heat, this season from the playoff bound Heat to our struggling Raps.

We now have a serious lack of depth in the middle.

Get the feeling O'Neal is feeling pretty good right now.

How is it we give up Moon and a 1st for Banks?

According to the South Florida Sun Sentinel;

Should Toronto be in the draft lottery in 2010, in essence not make next season's playoffs, the Heat then would receive a 2010 second-round pick from the Raptors. The first-round pick then would be sent to the Heat in any year, from 2011 through 2014 that it is not among the first 14 selections (the next year Toronto makes the playoffs). Should the Heat not get the first-round pick by 2014, it then would receive a 2015 first-round pick from the Raptors.

So far it's only the Miami papers reporting the draft pick (And Smith at the Star... but Smith is quoting the Miami guy and I have never thought he was ever really on top of NBA news... always a step behind)

So the big question: is it homer reporting?

Lets hope so, because a 1st rounder is pretty steep.

Also According to the South Florida Sun Sentinel;

In addition, the Heat gained a $4 million trade exception in the transaction, which it can use to balance salaries in a deal for the next 12 months. To complete the transaction, the Heat will send cash to Toronto, with $3 million the maximum allowed by the league in such transactions.

I wasn't much convinced about the trade, but with the conditional first-round now i'm sure i don't like it at all.

I think a contract extension for Marion only takes place if he fits so well that the Raps enter the playoffs, otherwise it's more likely that they use his expiring contract to gain some cap space this summer.

1) Jo got traded. Cap space in 09 baby!(happy)
2) We gave up Moon...guess there was no other way. (grudging acceptance)
3) We gave up a conditional pick...probably a conditional first depending on either JO suffering an injury/Marion resigning with us. (rose coloured glasses)
4)Plus it could be any pick, so the raptors could pick up a low, low first for cheap from another team and convey it (naive)
5) Top 14 protected Raptors first...with only condition being when the Heat get it. (head explodes)
6)(head regenerates)BC BETTER have some sweet, sweet deals lined up, for players that are young enough to be core pieces (bargaining)

Thank you for playing the six stages of JO trade acceptance.

Hollinger is saying that the conditional draft pick was essentially a side trade, exchanged for cash considerations... meaning... hopefully... BC plans to buy a pick this year as I'm sure many teams will be sellers.

If that's the case then fine. More help now is better than potential help later. We need to replenish this bench sooner than later... hopefully with a late first round fire sale pick...

I really hope I'm right... otherwise my faith in BC is starting to really wane.

With Marion, Grahm, Parker and Garbo's contract all coming off the books this summer the Raps can remake their team on the fly.

They get to have a free look at how Marion fits in with Bash, Bargani on the front line and see if they want to resign him (although at much less that the 17 mil that he is getting right now.

If this year's pick is lottery protected, then we have Bosh, Bargs, Calderone, a first round lottery pick (Raps aren't making the playoffs) and a but-load of cap space. Cap space is important for trades as we have the flexibility of taking on players that in these economic times other teams may want to part with (i.e. the Amare fire sale is motivated by economics as much as basketball). After watching this putrid season, its time to remake this beotch and the assets stated above present a good foundation.

Plus, it hasn't exactly "worked" with JO this year. If we came into opening night next year with JO (forcing the three bigs circle jerk line-up of Bargs/Bosh/JO on the front line) we would be in the same position as we are in now... a lottery team.

WOW.....a conditional first rounder to a team that got to dump a bad contract (Banks), add depth at SF, and add the low post presence they would need to do anything in the playoffs.....BC may be a good GM, but Riley is better.

The worst part is that if Marion comes over and this team plays good basketball, it WILL make the playoffs as the 8th seed. The Bucks are currently in that spot @ 26-29 and the teams between the Raps and that spot are:

Nets
Bulls
Knicks
Bobcats
Pacers

Of those teams, only the Bobcats seem like a contender for that 8th spot. If we do make the playoffs (which is good because it means Marion fits in) then we end up losing 15-17th pick; this would be terrible for a team trying to add talent.

Rob

I am a fan of the trade because it needed to happen like Bob McCowan says. However, I get the feeling that BC keeps getting taken to the hole by other GMs. Ultimately, we gave up TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, Jamario Moon, 2 first round picks, and Jermaine O'Neal for a rental player we will get for about two months. Not to mention the fact that we have to take on a bunk contract just to complete the deal. So, am I concerned? Yeah. I only hope BC can pull another couple of moves to redeem himself.

Mixed emotions about things too depending on how this draft pick situation sorts itself out. (We all know how much I love when Colangelo gets rid of picks.)

As many have said, the deal had to be done to clear up space but check these numbers emailed to me by JBen:

Including Banks, the guys we have under contract next year are: Bosh, Jose, Kapono, Bargs, Banks, Hump, and Roko for $45,753,371.

The following year we'll have Jose, Kapono and Banks for sure for 21,293,000 - but crap Hump's may pick up his option for another 3.2 million.

That's not exactly a quality base for a team considering the amount of money being shelled out. Plus, as JBen also noted, the salary cap could actually shrink next year since it's based on league revenue to an extent. That might mean players will to take less on contracts but it also may mean that much less wiggle room for BC.

Tomorrow morning we'll be posting our thoughts on things once the deal is made official and all details come to light.

Right now though I feel a bit like yardly in his 6 stages of JO trade acceptance...

Tinman, can you give more detail about what they're saying on the Fan?? JO seemed the consumate pro so I'm curious to hear where all this prima donna stuff is coming from. The deal reminds me a bit of how JO got here...Marion could work, but wasn't there a better option out there, maybe even this summer, then taking on Banks and giving up the pick and Moon?

PS - Going to be participating in the conference call with BC in a few minutes here - if anyone wants me to ask other specifics let me know...

Jamario, Banks and a first rounder to get rid of him? Reeallly?!? I'm beyond angry, I was just screaming like crazy. First we give a first rounder to get JO, and now spend another to get rid of him? What the hell is that? We couldn't have just traded JO for Starbury? Why does BC seem to have such a hard-on for trading away first rounders (please be sure to ask him exactly that in the conference call Franchise)? Between the JO deal, Hump's extension and the Kapono contract, I've lost faith. A cruel twist to an already gutwrenching season. Mark this as the moment the Raps gave up any chance of making a run with this roster. Devastated. And, to top it all off, we're going to make the playoffs and not get a high draft pick. Why? Why? Why? I think I know what it is like to be a fan of the Leafs now. I will never buy any stock of any company in which the Ontario Teacher's are a major stockholder. I"m shorting BCE stock as we speak. Such blatant incompetence on such a major scale in front of an entire nation.

Franchise, please be sure to convey my deep sense of anger to BC.

Franchise,
Probably too late, but you should ask BC why if he learned how to GM from Glen Grunwald? Grunwald lived by the take-a-bad-contract-in-exchange-for-a-good-one philosophy.

Franchise, I'm not sure I am as PO'ed as "Raptors Addict", but the more I look at this trade, the more I wonder about Colangelo. To be fair, there may not have been other offers. NY may not have wanted to pay JO 23 mil in 2009 because they rid themselves of Marbury in a few months. And other teams may not have had the willingness or expiring contracts to make a deal.

However, I think Colangelo could have got more than what he did. Let's say you do have to throw in the pick and Moon, why not try to expand the deal to bring back a young swingman like Cook or Wright? Or push to have a guy like Diawara included because he could have been thrown in and been a perfect replacement for moon; both in terms of salary and what he would bring to the court.

In any case, we need look towards the summer now because the deal is done. BC needs to make a decision on whether he pushes to keep Marion or goes for another SF.

Here's what I know for sure, 100%, no doubt about it.....BC and the Raptors HAVE TO sign a top flight SF this summer. Otherwise, we will all be speculating on where Bosh is going a la Amare.

Rob

Flying J, I don't know which Glen Grunwald you're talking about, but the one I remember made pretty decent draft selections (except for Radojevic) and help build the club into a winner after Isiah left. The worst thing he did was give big contracts to Alvin Williams, Antonio Davis and Jerome Williams; but he was forced into that by Carter holding us by the balls that summer.

All in all, Grunwald is still the BEST GM this team has ever had.

Rob

Very interesting conference call. I'll be discussing things in depth late tonight/early tomorrow morning but safe to say I'm feeling a lot better about the deal now. The pick has a number of conditions attached and probably won't see the light of day unless Toronto suddenly starts dominating over the course of the next two seasons. And on the other side, BC insisted on the cash exchange as it sounds like he's looking to buy picks - if not this year then next.

Trade Kap one for a expiring contract ? Hopefully BC is waiting for kapono to do well in the 3 point comp., so his stock rises. We could use that 6mil a yr this summer.

Im sure everyone has checked out this site but if you missed it.... it saves you a lot of time looking for mock draft sites, like i used to do. Its a NBA mock draft database with 35 sites to check out

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online/?page_id=4

The wild card is Banks. Colangelo has a track record of picking up "busts" at the end of other's benches and turning them into stars. See Boris Diaw. So if Banks surprises, then this is a great trade. If not then the first rounder makes this a bad trade, made because he is scared Bosh will walk - which he will do if that is what he has decided to do anyways. So reserve judgement until we see who the real Marcus Banks is.

Franchise, I'm glad to hear that the pick is that protected. However, did Colangelo say whether there were other deals out there that could have been made or whether he specifically wanted Marion because he thinks he will fit in with the line-up and believes that he can be re-signed???

Franchise... you're in a conference call with BC? Just how connected are you?

Alright, to all those people who are pissed about this deal... are you serious? Has there been one once of reason that suggests O'neal was the missing link here? No way. I loved his attitude, but this deal was coming since the first day of the season and we all know it. I remember blogging before any games saying this was the deal that was going to go down.

It just plain makes sense. You needed to move TJ's contract and the interest was minimal so BC turned TJ and Rasho into an ex-all star. Do you think there is ANY way you could have moved TJ and Rasho for Marion? Not a chance.

This was a good move... and guaranteed not the last one before next Thursday.

Once BC has made his moves, THEN let's say YEA or NAY.... not yet.

And if Marion doesn't end up working out or wanting to stay... no problem! He's off the books and we can look to the FA market. Sweet. If no one's there, then let's bank the cash and hang on until next season when the FA market REALLY heats up.

Worst case scenario, Bosh ends up wanting to leave. He's a stand up guy and I'm almost certain he'll let BC know with enough advanced warning for BC to shop him for something good.

Bosh is great, love him too, but whether we build around him or Bargs, we're gonna be okay.

So far, I'm MUCH happier with a starting lineup of Jose, Parker, Marion, Bosh and Bargs than anything else I've seen all season. This move is the first in the installment of improving the defensive speed of the 1,2 and 3 spots. More to come I'm sure.

RaptorsAddict:

Thanks for writing exactly what i was going to say. Ugh. WHO ARE WE GONNA SIGN NEXT YEAR??? Anyone?

good riddence moon, will miss JO but he was redundant... would not be surprised if BC made another move in the next couple days

Look, it comes down to a very simple reality. Colangelo had to make this deal to have any chance to improve this team next season. Considering how desperate the situation was, I would not say he got taken to the cleaners. The 1st round conditional pick was unfortunate however Colangelo now has options next summer when most other GMs are preparing for the summer of 2010.

If the Raptors fail to make the playoff, (they better fail), they receive a high draft pick, the ability to sign a decent free agent and cash from this deal to possibly purchase a draft pick. Correct me if I’m mistaken but this looks much more positive than before this trade was completed.

Colangelo is going to use the 'cash considerations' to buy an extra pick this year, simply trading a later pick for a pick now.

Makes sense given how few players we have, and our lack of young talent.

McClarky, I love the positivity but you are way off base. If Bosh leaves, this franchise will be set back worse than it was after the Carter trade. Bargnani is a good player lately, but 2 months into the season the kid was looking like a bust, so let's not make him out to be a franchise cornerstone just yet.

We HAVE to sign a premier SF this offseason and still have money for the pick(s), our own FA's and some veteran bench help. PERIOD.

Rob

Um..the team is 20 and 34. They just traded a player who was taking up 23 mil of the team salary while impeding the development of the one young player whose progress is essential to this team being championship competitive in the future. Sometimes I don't get it. It wasn't working so a change was made, why lament? Gives the GM an opportunity to correct sooner rather than later, gives a sense of how a MORE BALANCED roster will perform. The conditional pick might not see the light of day until 2015, 2010 at the earliest and it's lottery protected. I want this team to be good NEXT YEAR. I want it to perform so well that it is picking in th 27 to 30th spot in the draft next year.

Honestly folks, they play the games for a reason so let's wait until some games are played to see how this works out.

This trade was made for one player: Chris Bosh. Without this deal, the team would continue to underachieve and Bosh would be gone at the deadline next season. Colangelo has bought some time and a bit of hope... albeit at the cost of a first rounder .

Franchise-what do you mean the pick will never see the light of day?

If the Raptors suck next season (almost a certainty now), they will be giving up a 1st rounder AND a 2nd rounder--that's goddamn ridiculous. Even if they do scrape into the playoffs, a 1st rounder will be given up eventually. Blech.

What a horrible trade, second only in franchise history to the Carter fiasco.

Franchise, glad to hear that perhaps the pick isn't going to be gone in the next year or two and that BC is looking to add a pick this year. Both of those things make me much happier than the original scenario, which I believed to be: we lose our first rounder as soon as we make the playoffs. If we're losing it between picks 25-30, I"m ok with that. But, if we're giving up pick 15, not so much. Anyways, if it weren't for the pick I would be far more open to the trade, despite Banks' contract. I love the cap space, and I think we're going to be able to pick up a player for nothing, ala Camby this past summer. I'd also be open to Marion at 6-8/4 years, but anything huge I'd be against.

Aaron - The pick is protected... I'm guessing at least top 10, maybe even top 10 protected, meaning that if the Raptors are really bad, they retain the pick.

"maybe even top 10 protected"

Sorry, meant to say maybe even top 15 protected. Nothing is confirmed regarding the pick right now.

Marion's a fine player although I wonder how long he will remain at that level. Once the legs start to go, can he remain effective? Well, he's still got that crazy wingspan, defensive smarts and a real nose for the ball when it comes to rebounding, so I imagine he's got a couple of productive years left him in. Of course, there's no guarantee he'll stay here - that's anyone's guess at this point.

Not happy about potentially losing a first rounder, but I don't really see why people are so upset about losing Moon. As I recall, they didn't give up anything to get him. As a player, he's a tremendous athlete with some ability to rebound, block shots and defend, but he's inconsistent, has no handle and his jump shot is iffy at best. Marion does everything Moon does and at a much higher level (even jump shooting, which is hard to believe given how ugly Marion's shot is).

Have a listen to Colangelo's conference call this afternoon. Here is the link.

http://fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20090213_195929_4536

A couple of observations from BC's conference call:

1. BC is seriously considering re-signing Marion.

2. BC confirmed that the cap space the team would get conceivably from this trade is approximately 10-11 Million - but that would ONLY happen if the team renounces its rights to all of its free agents - ie. it does not re-sign Marion, renounces its rights to Delfino (who has a cap hold against the Raptors cap space for his qualifying offer), doesn't re-sign Parker and renounces its rights to Graham.

3. In reality, BC seems to be suggesting that the team may be better off re-signing some or all of its own players (ie. Graham, Parker), bringing back Delfino - so that it is not under the cap and then use its mid level exception to sign another player.

4. BC thinks Marion will fit well with this team - as a defender and good rebounder at the 3 position.

5. Miami wanted a pick in the earlier discussions but the Raptors refused and only agreed recently when Miami agreed to the cash considerations. BC views the cash considerations as potentially being used to acquire a future first round pick. So he wasn't that concerned about giving up this pick.

6. No other trade discussions came up with more cap space available - ex: a trade for Stephon Marbury.

BC seems to be suggesting that the reasons he made this trade were as follows:

(a) to address a weakness at the wing position with a player who can play strong defense and rebound and complements Bosh and Bargnani on the defensive end;

(b) to create roster flexibility, not cap space - ie. it does not sound like the Raptors will be players in the free agent market because of this trade (unless they make some other move like trading Kapono). Rather, with O'Neal's contract the team was up against the luxury tax and had no ability to add players or improve. With this trade, the Raptors now have an opportunity to re-sign some of their players including Delfino, Graham and Parker if they want to or do sign and trades for those players to take them up to the cap and then they will have the full mid-level exception to sign another player in the offseason.

So much for all of those who thought that this trade would mean cap space making the Raptors significant players in the free agent market. That doesn't seem likely, although with the current economic client it may be that the Raptors could sign a fairly good player with the mid-level exception.

Riley said it is possible Moon starts at small forward, calling him, "somewhat of a facsimile of Shawn Marion."

Now that makes me smile. You know ... like one of those shit eating grins.

Now in regards to this deal, I have to disagree on it being a bad one. A lot of the big wigs in basketball will not be players in 2009. And by that I mean New York, Phoenix, Miami and a few more. Those teams are gunning for the 2010 Sweepstakes. And being the traditional big spenders that they are, along with a focus on 2010 and not 2009, next year’s Free agent opportunities will see weaker demand, which means cheaper prices. Add a new economic reality, and the odds of picking up someone good, gets better. Or at least the price does.

This also means Marion can come back on reasonable terms. And using those Miami cash considerations for a draft pick – a shooting guard most desired – well, who knows what this team can become. With a potentially good back-up PG in Ukic, along with Joey G, plus maybe a Shooting Guard for that mid-level exemptions – rocket science is easier than this damn CBA – then I might think the Raptors have a decent chance to shine.

We could have (with or without Marion), a good front court, but also a good Bench. One that features Ukic, Joey, Humps, and a rookie SG. Maybe even get Moon back as a part-timer.

Part of the reason we’ve had the lowest production from the wing positions, is because we have no TRUE starter wings. And because we have none, we’ve resorted to using our Bench in a way they have no business being.

We ain’t winning the trophy next year, but if BC can make some of these changes that get us to the next level, then maybe we keep Bosh, and move to the next level.

Sometimes we focus too much on the Cap situation, and not the players. I know it’s important, but sometimes it overwhelms. The long and short of it is, we just traded JO for Marion. The rest is all fodder. Yeah it’s a draft pick, and but we don’t have time for that now. Bosh is part of the concept, and we have to face that prospect. And if we can’t keep Shawn, then so be it. But I’d like to think we’d have the best shot of all the teams looking.

Personally, I think this was a trade that benefits both teams.