Tip-In, Toronto Raptors’ Post-Game:  Roko-Motion

Making a trade now isn't about saving our season. It's about saving next season. Finding a taker for Kapono and possibly Oneal, will go a long way to freeing up cap space for this offseason where we can target a free agent who can at least boost the team's wing play. I just do not think anyone is going to take Oneal's contract this offseason unless we are taking long term deals back (think Chicago or NY) and Oneal's value is highest right now as teams who have cap space but are fighting for a playoff spot (said teams above) have more incentive to add a potential all-start Centre without shoving bad contracts back our way. Just my opinion.

Good article Frahcnise, however, I disagree about the trade not happening...I can garuntee a trade of some sort will happen.

100% garuntee...mark my words.

This game shows exactly why Raps fans have been so frustrated this year. Without Bosh and Jose this team beats a healthy spurs. However without Bosh they lose to a Memphis team who is playing without Rudy. This team has been unable to give the same type of effort on a consistant basis regadless of who is playing.

That being said its hard not to get excited about our team going into the allstar break...hopefully Bosh and Jose get enough time off so that their injuries can completely heal up and they don't miss any more games.

If that happens it will be the first time in a long time that we've had out entire team healthy enough to play. Couple that with a weak post allstar break sched. and I think the raps can make a serious run.

However I still wonder is Bosh and Andrea still the future of this team? Can they win a championship without a big bad bruiser starting at one of the frontcourt positions?

If yes then great....if not who gets moved? Especially since we don't know if Bosh will leave...

echo the sentiments by many this morning - how does a team with really 6 guys beat san an and then lose to memphis with more healthy bodies??

Great win but bc has a lot of tough decisions to make now in terms of who should be part of the clubs future.

Agree with McGateway. Trading has nothing to do with saving this season. The Charlotte Bobcats won a lot of games against good teams last year, so to suggest this win means the team should not make moves now is a little faulty. With everybody currently on the roster healthy, the team is not balanced. With an appropriate upgrade at the wing position (through trade at this year's deadline, free agent signing over the summer, or trade using the excess cap room over the summer) all of the other pieces (assuming the likes of Moon, Graham, and Parker resign) would assume their proper position in the hierarchy of what would be a more seriously competitive team. Even an end of season run with a better wing option would give management a sense of how deficient other areas are, giving them a chance to improve them appropriately. If Roko's performance from last night is indicative of what he can contribute regularly next year with more experience, the back-up point guard situation is seemingly resolved. This allows management to focus on augmenting other areas to increase the chance of legitimate championship contention in the short and long term, which is the goal after all.

It was great to see this young kid Roko show his potential. He has a lateral quickness that Jose does not have. I would guess that he will be better than Jose in a few short years.
Coming back to MAS's comments regarding Bosh yesterday. I am not anti Bosh, it is just that when you look at championship teams, their best players have or had skills that Bosh does not have, ball handling, 3 pt shooting and creativity off the dribble. Bosh has been built up as the Raps "franchise" player but he does not have the skill set of a "championship franchise" player. To say he does is to deny the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Wade. etc. So if you want to keep Bosh then you have a problem because you will not have that mobile crunch time scorer. If the Raps go out and get that scorer, Bosh must accept this new lesser role at least in the scoring area. Can he do that?

It's funny that this team is still as much a Babcock team as it is a BC team...Unfortunately for Babcock it took about 3 years before some of his players matured (Calderon, Rocky and Graham). Even I, and advocate for patience am a little stunned by Rocky and Grahams contribution this year. Could you imagine a year or two years ago we'd be saying Three of Babcocks picks were in the starting lineup?

Does anybody think that Smitch would have had a hope in hell of coaching a win in this game?

Gotta hand it to Triano. He's light years better than Smitch, and the development of the three projects (Bargs, Ukic, Graham) has been nothing short of startling.

As for the Hamlettian 'to trade or not to trade?' existential question I am for patience - if a trade involving JO to the Bulls gives us back the wing players we need so badly (Nocioni, Sefalosha or gasp Deng) can materialize - do it. If not, O'Neal's trade value only increases as we wait.

Dealing Bosh at this point would just be foolish. The market isn't high on him (especially with an injury), and the possibility of getting an elite wing player in the exchange - especially one who would want to stay and make a career in TO - is low. So why panic and fold the hand on him now?

Unless you believe what Stephen A Smith wrote (and if you do shame on you), and Bosh has expressed he wants out, it would still make more sense to do a deal in the off-season after we've seen what the season and our team looks like.

I am not surprised that someone who has worked as long in the league as Babcock, had some sort of idea what he was doing. What resulted in his firing were a series of big mistakes made within a short period. I as an assistant for a while he lacked confidence in his own decisions and often deferred to more experienced hands. Many have suggested the Araujo drafting was McCloskey's (the former Detroit GM he took on as an advisor) doing. Graham over Granger was a decision made in consideration of injury. Calderon, Ukic, and Charlie V are or will be solid players. The Carter trade was made in haste. A person in a new position making two bad big decisions in short succession really does put himself in a tough spot moving forward. The die was cast and the rest is history, but in retrospect he has to be given some just due.

Just fooling with the trade machine, but would;

Jermaine for Korver and AK 47 make sense at all for the Jazz?

Who you getting crazy with ese? Don't you know I'm Roko!

RE: WTF

In my opinion,

Bosh and Bargs can not coexist unless you get some good rebounders at other positions.

Bargs is an inefficient shooting, perimeter oriented, big man. That's who he is. And with him hanging around on the perimeter, there is only 1 "big" that can contend for a putback/offensive rebound. Which means that Bosh has to fight more than 1 person for a board.

On the defensive end, Bargs is a rebounding liability as well.

So if you aren't getting offensive boards and defensive boards at an acceptable rate, that means the other team has 'X' amount more of possessions. An outcome like that would likely result in a loss.

Given that Bosh is a merely adequate rebounder for his position (a la TJoseford's blog and his discussion of rebounding rate), you need somebody to gobble up those boards.

So, I think both Bosh and Bargs need a strong rebounder for their games to work optimally.

^No that trade wold amke no sense whatsoever from a Jazz perspective; for a multitude of reasons.

I did want to say one thing about all of the trade speculation on this site and others. People have to take it with a grain of salt and not get too upset about ridiculous proposals. Some of the people making them might be young kids, who are big Raps fans, but aren't that sophisticated yet to understand the cap or other variables that go into making a trade. Those of us who are....ahem....sophisticated enough should show that by not going nuts when we see an idiotic proposal; oh and notwithstanding what I said above, some of these proposals have been plainly idiotic.

Statement said: Bosh and Bargs can not coexist unless you get some good rebounders at other positions.

Which I think is half right. The problem is not that they cannont co-exist, its that Bargs game hasn't developed on the rebounding side as much as we need it to - though it is kilometers better than it used to be he still needs to put more work in - especially on the defensive glass. At the offensive end he won't ever have awesome rebounding numbers because he moves to the perimeter so often for his own shot.

So I agree with your solution - we need rebounding SF's and 2Guards to pick up the slack - but I don't agree with the premise that Bosh and Bargs can't coexist.

I will admit though that "fantasy" trade talk is the single though I abhor the most on any forum (basketball or not). It's a bit of a bore really, especially for basketball. Since the inception of this team, how many major trades were done in season? And how many of them were really major ones?

Off the top of my head I can only think of Keon Clark, and VC deal. Antonio Davis version 2 wouldn't really qualify.

Bedhead - How does his trade value increase by waiting? The more likely scenario is that he will get hurt again which will only lower his trade value. Yes he has 20 mil coming off the books at the end of next year but take a look around as teams like NY Portland and Miami are having a hard time moving expiring contracts to get the pieces they need to move forward. Marion has been on the market for month's and the only credible deal they have for them is JO or Amare (as long as Banks isn't included).
RT - You mean a franchise player other than Shaq, Duncan or Wilt Chamberlin? Not that I am saying that Bosh is in their league but your argument is a little short sighted. PF's (even franchise PF's) need help in the wing/guard spots to win championships. Garnett couldn't do it in Minny, do you consider him to not be a franchise player? This arguement that Bosh isn't a franchise player because he can't score through dribble penetration or that you wouldn't give him the ball at the end of games is getting tired. I think yall need to step back and think about it logically, PF/C could never be franchise players in your minds because they don't have the required skill set you talk about and yet Shaq has been to the finals (and won more championships) than Kobe and Lebron have combined. What does that say about that theory? How bout Duncan who made a mockery of King James in their finals? Being able to hit the last shot of a game is a great asset but mostly meaningless if your team loses by 10 points a game. Being able to penetrate and create your own shot is only good when there is someone who can clean up your misses. Basketball is a team game, and there has never been a player in the modern era who has won a championship without other quality players around him, not even MJ.

Re: McGateway

I think you answered the question yourself, his contract comes off the books next year - and cap relief is in and of itself something teams will trade for.

You make the obvious response that JO's potential for getting injured hurts the chances of a real basketball trade - but it does nothing to impair the increasing chances his contract will be traded.

Consider that Keith 'playing with my kids at home' Van Horn's contract was worth something, a JO deal - even if he is hurt, is a likely scenario simply because of the massive relief he offers cash strapped teams looking to chase LeBron et al.

His value as a trade piece this season was clearly hampered by his injury, but his value next will exist regardless - though it would presumably be even better if he were fully healthy and productive.

The reason you trade O'Neal now is two fold. 1) you get a tryout with the player(s) who come back and get to see how you must proceed in the offseason to build around the players who come in and who will be staying around. 2) by having his salary off the books (assuming we get back an expiring deal or two) you get to make a trade with a team who is looking to dump salary in the offseason, and avoid the salary matching provisions in the CBA. And with the economy the way it is, I doubt Phoenix will be the only team trying hard to avoid the luxury tax threshold, so there might be some sweet deals out there if we do the homework.

So, say, if a team wants to give away Allen Iverson and only wants to get back Will Solomon, we can do that without having to throw in a bunch of filler in order to even up the salary exchange. (Random example of players, not to be taken as a serious trade proposal).

So, since O'Neal isn't in our future plans - unless he would like to take a MASSIVE pay cut - I think we need to deal him now. If we do it for Marion - which I think is our best option - it gives us a tryout on the Matrix (who, if he enjoys his time here, may accept a pay cut to stay - he's looking at a pay cut anyway) or if not, we have the option of going after a guy like Lamar Odom, who may be available if the Lakers flame out in the playoffs.

Bottom line, give me cap flexibilty any day.

The problem that we run into next year is that, if we look to deal O'Neal next season, we're going to have an even tougher time trying to match salaries with a team who is looking to dump salaries, as more and more teams will have done that in the offseason in preparation for the 2010/2011 bonanza.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters when we deal O'Neal, but don't expect the deals to be getting any sweeter next season.

The JO debate is interesting, with the trae now camp vs. the 2010 cap relief camp; but I had one question for the latter group:

Can you name for me the last big time free agent that the Raptors attracted?
I can't think of a single one; sure we've re-signed some of our own, but to my knowledge we have NEVER signed a big time UFA. And, who really gives a damn about cap space in 2010, if we end up losing Bosh because JO got hurt or didn't play well in 2009 and the Raps stunk. I'm sure all the big time free agents will be clamouring to sing with a Raptor team featuring Calderon and Bargnani and no one else of note.

I'm sorry to come off so pessimistic, but I have no idea in what dreamworld people are living in where they think Bosh will re-sign if we have a repeat of this year; and if you come back with the same line-up, how can you really expect different results??? That would fit nicely within Einstein's definition of insanity.

BC needs to pull the trigger RIGHT NOW on a JO deal for 2009 cap space to sign a legit swingman to play alongside Bosh, Bargnani and Calderon. Otherwise, he might as well start looking at deals for Bosh because doing nothing, and going into the 09-10 season with this same line-up is a crapshoot (just like it was this year). The UFA SG/SF available this summer include: (in no particular order)

1. Odom
2. Marion
3. Al Harrington---he doesn't rebound and shoots tons of 3's so he is a SF.
4. Turkoglu

I would put Odom at the top of my list, immediately followed by Turkoglu because they are bigger SF's and can rebound the ball (especially Odom); and I think the Raps could attract either one. I also think we might be able to get either of these guys below market value because everyone is gearing up for 2010; so maybe 4-5 years at around 10 million might get it done for either player. If that fails, I know we can sign Harrington for under 10 million a year, and Marion might fit into that category also after the year he's had. That would still leave money to bolster the bench with another solid big like an Etan Thoms, Shelden Williams or Joe Smith.

Another scenario that I haven't seen anyone mention is getting JO to opt out of his deal, and then sign him for a couple more years at a more managable salary, if you really think we should keep him. But I don't see him accepting a permanent back-up role with the team.

In any case, I think BC understands that hoping for a bounce back year in order to retain Bosh is not a plan, it's a prayer. SO he needs to get the pieces to make this team better before the start of the next season so the Raps can get back to winning make the playoffs and sell Bosh on the very thing everyone thought a few years ago: That this is an up and coming team that he could help lead to a championship.

Rob

Amen to "2nd Raps fan in LA says". There is an added bonus that more teams are targeting getting under the cap for next year's FA season and the Raptors might be able to lure a decent FA this season if they are willing to pay (and have the room). Next season there could be 15-20 teams under the cap as everyone vies for what amounts to 5 or 6 superior free agents. Do you really think the Raptors can compete with that considering the best FA we have ever signed (in my memory) is Jason Kapono(not including Euros)? It makes more sense to Jkap and Oneal now even if it is just for Cap space and then offer to take on long term contracts of decent players who don't figure into their teams drive to get Lebron (including some nice restricted FA's that we could sign to larger than normal contracts to weaken the field in 2010 if their teams decide to match, David Lee anyone?). Why compete with 15 teams when we can compete with like 8?

Thanks McGateway. I'm with you on this. How can Raps fans talk about 2010 without even a hint of irony; this team doesn't attract high profile free agents. Hell it has a hard enough time keeping its own.

I agree on the point about taking on contracts that run past 2010 from teams looking to clear cap space if the player is one the Raps actually need; hello Richard Jefferson, who has a contract thru 2011.

Would anyone really be averse to a deal like:

to Milwaukee:
O'Neal
Moon

to Toronto:
Jefferson
Villanueva
Damon Jones (whose deal expires in 2010, along with Villanueva's)

This deal would give the raps a good, but not great, SF while still providing some cap space in 2010 when the other 2 contracts come off the books.

I can accept most scenarios (trades, signings, etc.), but the one that scares the crap out of me as a Raptors fan is the one where we sit tight and wait for cap space in 2010. All you have to do is think back to the summer of McGrady, when the Bulls cleared cap space to get him and he signed instead with the Magic. I don't want to be those Bulls in 2010, left holding the bag!

Rob

YES Franchies once again a sick article....and roko was just NASTY and what can I say about Bargs...oh Baby, my thouhgts on this season are that it's done but with a good draft pick and a season of development under our belt (this one) i got a lot of reasons to be optimistic about next season......although it sounds a little bit of leafesque I still believe in BC

I've got a question re: the possibility of moving Bosh:

Firstly, I think most people around the NBA would agree (especially Aschburner from SI) that Amare is an inferior player to Bosh. And I read an interesting rumor regarding Amare and Portland, where the Blazers would send Aldridge, Bayless and Lafrentz to Phoenix in the exchange.

If we all agree that Bosh is regarded as a better player/leader than Amare and this is what Phoenix is being offered, what would do you think an offer for Bosh would look like and at what point (this for the "don't trade Bosh group") do you give in and make a deal???

Would you take Aldridge, Fernandez, Outlaw and Lafrentz for Bosh, Kapono and Moon (or Graham)???

*I'm just asking this because if Portland is willing to part with the first group for Amare, I'm pretty sure they would move the guys I suggested for a superior player in Bosh.

Franchise, you're an astute observer and a guy who doesn't think Bosh should be traded, but at what point (in terms of talent coming our way) would you give in?

Rob

**Franchise lol typed too fast...

Late to the party, some comments

McGateway and 2nd Raps Fan in LA, you guys both make strong arguments.

If anyone hasn't listened to the podcast of Bob McCowon's interview with BC, its on the fan590 website. Longish, one hour or so. I believe the gist of it was posted in a thread of Realgm.

Here are my interpretations (reader beware)

1) He came as close as a GM comes to saying a deal will get done before the deadline. Big or small he's not sure.

2) Provided, Mccowen had some leading questions to set this response up. BC will have a sitdown with Bosh and his reps during the summer and gauge where his head is at. If he won't give us an answer, or says he wants out, the trade discussions commence.

3)Seemed to stress the concept of using capspace in either '09 or 2010 for trades, not just to assume straight up signings.

4) Mentioned how a "solid pick" and a key signing or two could lead to a turn around (ie every other GM he's talked to said we're better then our record...grain of salt)

If anyone else heard the interview, I'd appreciate their take on this and whether I misinterpreted in this or the next rapHq thread.

The complicating factor in any (hypothetical) Bosh trade would be him informally agreeing to sign long term with the team that trades for him.

My take on 2nd rap's question:

If you come out of any deal with a player with all-star potential who is at the end of their rookie deal, that is a win or as close to one as I dare dream.

Renato ,quite a few threads ago, suggested you ask Bosh to resign, if he doesn't he gets traded.

If you put yourself in Bosh's shoes, what do the Raptors need to do in the offseason to get you to stay? This means ignore the chance to team up with a superstar somewhere else. If I'm Bosh, the status quo next year punches my ticket to greener pastures.

Casey - O'Neal will have no choice but to take a massive pay cut his next contract.

2nd LA RAP fan - anybody living in Milwaukee would object to your trade proposal. And if I'm Turkoglu why leave Orlando to come to TO?

Bedhead - our record would be better had coaching change not happened. Do not get me wrong, I'll begrudgingly admit that eventually Sam had to go, but lets be honest, unless we play 700 ball rest of season, Triano is a lame duck coach.

Ustation- I was always a fan of Babcock but Arrujo and the Carter trade are two big albatrosses that will always be around his neck.

I will go on the record by saying, unless another decent player(not named Banks) is involved trading O'Neal for Marion is not the right move for our Raptors. Don't like to rip-off the SportsGuy but Marion stats got inflated by D'Antoni and Nash's system.

Oh yeah, feel a need to add = I miss Swirsky. There I said it.
Anyone have a link to his blog?

Yardly, 2nd Raps fan in LA & McGateway those were some of the most sensible posts I’ve read in a while. I agree completely. The one thing I am sceptical about is whether they will be able to attract good enough free agents this summer to make a real difference next season. Who would they acquire in the off season to make this team much better? Which team is going to do a trade simply to dump salary for 2010 in the summertime; teams my start to dump salary by next yrs trade deadline but not in the summer. So my point is I’m not sure where the Raps are going to find talent this summer to make the situation much better next season.
Tinman, I think you have to accept Banks’ in any trade with Miami because your other option is not to trade with them and enter into next year with the same line up. I agree that Banks’ contract isn’t good but you have to look at the bigger picture and that is the flexibility that having CAP space brings.