Tip-In: Toronto Raptors Post Game - A Much Needed W

I agree with your assesment of Oneal. I am impressed with his professionalism and the aggressive attitude he brings to this team. He has a better "back to the basket" game than Bosh. His game suffers when Bosh is in the game because Bosh is the first option on the blocks. He's 31 and if his salary were more realistic, I'd love to see him as the center for 3 more years.

Is it just me or did know one - coach(s) or point guard - recognize that the mismatch of AB and mike miller. How do we not post AB all game on that until they can stop it? Very weird to me.

Secondly, why are we not trading Bosh for Amare - straight up?? Makes sense to me?

so bosh is missing the all-star game.

the spurs amaze me; they turn lead to gold.

Interesting that even though they lose a lot either way, I also like how they play better with O'Neal than with Bosh.

I'm not quite sure Stoudemire for Bosh makes that much sense--he is a terrible defensive player (though better than Bosh), and I'm not sure he would work well with Bargnani anyway. We need to flip Bosh for a freakin' small forward. Do you think Oklahoma City would give up Durant? Probably not for only a year and a half of Bosh, but we need to look for trades in this mold.

A quick list of SF's I would trade Bosh for. I would also want a 1st rounder, and more players would be involved in some cases to match salaries:

Caron Butler
Luol Deng
Kevin Durant
Danny Granger (Indy doesn't need PFs, though)
Josh Howard
Andre Igoudala (they're stuck with Brand already)
Richard Jefferson
Corey Maggette (we'd have to get a young guy too)
Tayshaun Prince
Josh Smith
Al Thornton (this would be PERFECT with a 1st rounder!)
Gerald Wallace (plus a bunch more)
Marvin Williams

That's 13 guys, who does everyone like the best?

I echo Howland's sentiments about JO. He's really the only guy on this team that seems to "get it" in terms of what needs to be done to win games. It was great to hear O'Neal own up to his own shortcomings early on and how about a little PR move by saying that tonight's game was tough but the club had one of the best home crowds in all of basketball behind them??

I thought that was interesting.

Also interesting to see Jason Kapono play decently now that he's got this apparent "green light" to fire away. Defensively he still struggled but at least his offence came to life later in the game.

I really thought though that last night's match showed just how unathletic the Raptors are. Players like Carney and Foye were blowing by Toronto defenders as if they weren't there.

And so yes, yesterday the Raps sent us a media release explaining that Bosh would be missing the All-Star game. I think of course that's the right call and I wonder if he'll continue to sit for very long afterwards. He did seem pretty into the match though last night which was good to see...even though the Target Center was a ghost town.

And can we stop this Bosh trade talk? He's not going anywhere by next Wednesday so I'd prefer to concentrate on seeing how this team closes out the year, and how several players develop - namely Joey Graham. Graham again last night showed his versatility and he's going to be a huge piece of the puzzle tonight if the Raps want to steal a win at home.

Franchise,

I understand you want to stop the Bosh trade comments, and I agree, simply because that trade will not happen.

However, I do think it should happen!...Let me explain why, do you not feel we would be better off keeping oneal and bargniani and getting a Good wing and maybe draft picks for bosh? This would provide us with a true center in oneal, bargniani is really a PF and not a center so he will be able to develop and play his true position and we would have a good wing in place...this along with jose and our role players, we would be an excellent team...

VS.

Trading oneal and getting a wing again, however, bargniani is playing center and bosh at PF... this would mean bargniani is not really at his true postition, and bosh is more of a jumpshooter than oneal so therefore takes away some of the key factors bargniani brings to the table...

With all this said, having a true center and defneisive stopper in oneal (who doesnt jump shoot) actually compliments bargniani much better...bargniani plays his true position...we get a much better wing and trade option by giving up bosh...we lose the whole negativity around him leaving... etc.

Overall, with this said, it is clearly the best option possible to trade bosh... our team would be much more balanced and our players can perform to their best ability.

Thoughts?

I was at the game in Minneapolis last night. Some thoughts, comments, observations.

The announced attendance was about 12,000. In reality, I'd say it was way under 10,000. Not that the Raptors are a draw, but at least Toronto fans are showing up - even if they occasionally boo. What is better as a player? (I'm talking to you Bosh).

Kevin McHale had the widest tie and worst sport coat I've ever seen. He looked like he stepped off the set of Barney Miller.

JO was getting heckled by the fans quite a bit. Had an ongoing dialogue with some court side fans. Stepped on the court in response. Real pro.

Jamario Moon is way too casual on the court. Too much smiling and laughing with the other team's players.

Kevin Love is the exact opposite. All business. Old school. No smiling, just glaring and doing the dirty work. If he ever develops some shooting range, he'll be good.

That said the T Wolves still should have kept Mayo. And Roy.

How would you like Brian Cardinal on your team? Yikes. Looks like the 40 year old former college star who kills it at the Y during pick up games.

Foye would drive me nuts as a T Wolves fan. Last 5 minutes I don't think he passed the ball once. Put up numbers, but in a Mike James kind of way.

How about a trade Hump for Rodney Carney? Minnesota kid, they seem to like him here. Plus they need bigs. Badly.

I watched Will Solomon on 2 time outs. Not sure why. One he was yawning. One he was watching the T Wolves mascot try to sink three behind the back shots from center. I see Europe in his future again.

Nice win for the Raps.

Silverback - Great comments from the game, seemed like there were a bunch of Raps fans there.

I really like Love even if he is undersized etc - just a tenacious rebounder, good basketball IQ and feel for the game, and like you said, all business.

Speaking of T-Wolves, funny breakdown of Marcus Banks for those who still want to see the Marion trade go down, courtesy of Canishoopus:

http://petemarasmitch.blogspot.com/2009/02/ultimate-marcus-banks-scouting-report.html

Blanco - I need to see much more of Bargs and JO together before I even entertain moving Bosh. As D noted yesterday in his preview, Bargs doesn't seem nearly as effective with JO on the court instead of Bosh. Last night was another example as he simply sat on the perimeter most of the time and was a black hole in terms of ball movement. It's a small sample size so we'll see, but right now I wouldn't move CB4.

That being said, if you were sure he could bring you back an All-Star swingman...

Franchise--this "franchise" is clearly going nowhere, so why talk about the rest of this season? It's all meaningless. I wasn't talking about a trade for Bosh now, but rather during the summer/on draft day.

Joey Graham sucks, please stop talking about how he's a solution. He will NEVER be an impact player and I pray to god that we let him and Moon go at the end of the year and trade for a real wing player. Guys, wake up and watch what the forwards on my list do on a nightly basis--24 points isn't a career high, it's a day-in, day-out performance.

Why would we not trade Bosh this week if we could? What does he do to make our team better? And, remind me, how many playoff series have we won with him in his career????

Aaron:

Of the list you gave, Durant is the super star in the making and his team realize it so, he's out and the same with Granger. Of the rest, only two can be "crunch time" players, Butler and Prince. Wished we could get one of those to go with Bargs and Oneal.

Blanco:

Certainly, trading Bosh is a real opportunity but like Franchise and others, the organization still sees Bosh as the player to build around and run the offense through. Oddly enough, it is this attitude that has Toronto in the position they are in. They are most likely to wait until too late and get nothing just like they did with Carter. The worst that could happen in 2010 is to pay 30 million + for Bosh and continue on with a low cost back up cast.

I was wondering Franchise or Howland, How would you rate Andrea's basketball IQ level?

I've watched the past couple of games and the commentators seem to be very reluctant to bring up his deficiencies. An example of this is in his defense: He cannot guard quicker players and always seems to draw fouls by hand checking or holding his opponents. On the offensive end: He is always looking for the harder shot and not using his height properly.
I think that Raptors management is a little too patient when it comes to his development.

Re: Blanco/Aaron's suggestion of trading Bosh...

A. I just don't see it happening.

B. The Bargnani 'true' position argument is IMO bunk. Starting at the five this year with JO on IR Bargs looked more at home than at any other time or position in his career. His best offensive and defensive performances have all come at the five. Say it with me, he's center. See? I knew you could.

On dealing O'Neal...I'd rather not. I'd rather keep him and sign him to a much smaller contract. I like his game a ton when he's healthy. But given that Bargs is our five of the future (and hopefully Bosh our four), O'Neal is the odd man out. So lets bite the bullet and move him at the right time.

Bosh for Amare straight up? Pass. Bosh has spent much of his early career guarding the other teams best bigs - and with his frame he took a pounding. So its not that he doesn't play D, its that he was playing it out of position against stronger guys. Once Rasho arrived that started to change, and Bosh was allowed to guard the 2nd big - and low and behold his D improved (this is the same story with Tim Duncan - guarding the other teams best big he's ok, against the 2nd best he's awesome).

Amare in contrast is simply allergic to defense. He's a me-first-give-me-my-offense guy, someone who made it impossible for Shawn Marion to co-exist with. Bosh on the other hand is a sharp guy with team first attitude and oodles of character. Who did team USA rely on more?

Exactly.

We desperately need to find some wing players to build around Bosh, Calderon and Bargs. Those are the three blocks. Everything else can go.

The other reason BC won't move Bosh until he has to (i.e. next season) is that he would be basically admitting that he was wrong about drafting Bargnani (much like moving Bargnani won't happen). If BC had traded Bosh instead of Charlie V (or both of them) he could have avoided criticism (with a log jam at the 4) instead, if he moves Bosh now he is basically saying he should have drafted a guard in that draft (Roy, Foye etc) to compliment Bosh. By waiting until next year he can say his hands were tied and he had to move Bosh or risk getting nothing when (or if) he bolts. BC has shown he can take risks (firing Smitch when he did instead of waiting until the season was all but done) but I don't think he will willing trade away a player that many fans and pundits believe is the face of the franchise and admit he shouldn't have tried to make Bargnani a 5 to play with Bosh.

Mcgateway,

I disagree with your reasoning that BC wouldnt trade because it made the drafting of bargniani an admitted mistake...I think the exact reason he drafted bargniani is he knew the posibility of losing bosh.. and then drafted bargniani because he can fill in the role for bosh and we would use bosh's money on a wing...

thats what i think was in his mind all the way from that draft day

I think you are giving BC too much Credit. There is no way that BC could forsee that this team would be too crappy for Bosh to want to resign 4 years in the future. In fact, all the evidence up until recently seemed to indicate that Bosh would more than likely resign with the team when his contract came up. Don't forget that BC extended Bosh's contract after he drafted Bargnani not before. If he knew Bosh was going to take a 3 year extension instead of the 5 years that Carmelo took, then why wait until the franchise is going into the toilet to trade him? Last offseason would have been the ideal time to ship him out before anyone thought that Bosh might not want to resign, and his value would be at an all time high (thus, get the max out of him before everyone figures out that he is a goner). Now, as the speculation rages, Bosh's actual value goes down as people are of the perception that Toronto will do anything to get some value for him.

Aaron:

I’m not sure how to respond to your list of players you would trade Bosh for (Luol freak’n Deng!! Richard Jefferson!!??). You are obviously not able to properly value talent and have some sort of man-hate, vendetta against Bosh… Not worth further comments.

Blanco,

Your suggestion seems to revolve around the proposition that Bosh should be traded to allow Bargani to play his "true" position. This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why trade Bosh to allow a lesser player room to play? Why not trade Calderone so Roko can get more minutes??? I suppose you are basing your analysis on the argument that Bargani is going to be a better player than Bosh. This is very questionable if not improbable. I’d rather have Bosh than Bargani any day! And as Bedhead suggested, you are totally off base with your ‘Bargs is better with JO’ argument. The best Bargs has played all year was with Bosh when JO was out!

RT,

The theory of building the Raptors around Bosh is not what got us here, it was the execution. Colangelo has put together the worst wing players and back-up point guards around the league. The team has maybe 3 legit NBA quality starters on it (JO/Bosh and Bargs can not all start on an NBA team that hopes to have any success so its Jose + two of Bosh/JO/Bargs). This is why the Raptors are in the situation they are in.

To echo Bedhead, anyone who would contemplate trading Bosh for Amare Stoudamire doesn’t understand basketball. It’s not even close… Why do you think the Suns are shopping him??!!

Aaron you're crazy.

Bosh for Magette? Sure Bosh is not Duncan, but what the hell has Maggette ever done?

Bosh for Richard Jefferson?? Without JKidd feeding the ball to him at the hoop, Jefferson hasn't done even less than Maggette. Jefferson can't even make an impact in Milwaulkee.

Marvin Williams????? Marvin's got potential, but so does Bargnani. Marvin may never live up to his potential (and he for damn sure will never justify being picked before CP3).

The rest of your list is just as bad.

well said chris - sorry aaron, none of those names make sense. I mean im not sure ok would even deal durant for lebron at this point!

Same goes for half the other guys on the list and the other half i wouldnt move bargs for let alone cb4.

Lets focus on building around bosh instead of suggestions like these pulease!

MAS,

u may be mildly retarted... clearly my point was the overall talent level and balance of the team will be higher if you trade bosh for a high quality wing.. then you will have a high quality center (oneal), high quality PF (and perhpas all star if he comes into his own), high quality wing (all star for bosh), high quality point (calderon), and parker or graham...

VS.

Getting all the same results, however, not a high quality center because bargniani will flourish better learning as a PF and oneal is clearly a better defensive option , and not a high quality wing because you wont get nearly good a wing for oneal... SO...

quite obviously the first scenerio is a much better team....

now to get into more details, the only way the second option is better is if we are simply looking to get money this off season, or go into financial details....

maybe you will be able to read now MAS and understand? or perhaps you need your tutor to do that for you?

How about Bosh and Kapono's salary for Caron Butler and Jamison. Maybe a pick in there too.

Thoughts?

Longtime reader, first time poster who felt so compelled based on some of these ridiculous scenarios.

The idea of dealing Bosh for an All-Star swingman only works if:

a) One is available for trade
b) The team looking to move a wing wants a big in return
c) Salaries match up so that TO doesnt have to take on other bad contracts (remember, CB4 has no small deal)
d) The Raptors are getting back a player for at least two more season, not one they need to try and re-sign soon
e) As was already mentioned, the swingman being obtained has similar age and upside/talent to Bosh
f) Colangelo thinks that Bargs is a 4 not a 5

I could go on and on...

There are just way too many "ifs" about moving a proven star like Bosh. I believe it was Frnachise who wrote on this topic before but moving CB4 is frought with peril unless you're moving a big for another big. (Amare for CB4 is the only rumour that makes any amount of sense frankly.)

And further, if you've watched this team this year you know that simply getting a "quality wing," something that will be difficult as is based on the above, won't fix things completely. There are a lot of holes to fill and moving a proven piece for a few lesser ones to plug things up isn't the answer.

However in some ways I hope Toronto does deal Bosh just so I can then hear fans complain about us lacking any scoring presence down low...

Amen to MAS

I think Aaron have some kind of man hate against Bosh.

Bosh for Richard Jefferson or Corey Maggette is just laughable and not worth justifying why this would be a stupid trade.

Why trade your 24 years old All-star for a guy (Marvin Williams) who is becoming a restricted free agent at the end of the year and we could possible get me if JO is ship out of town before next week.

As for Wallace are you nuts. I like his game but if he is your centre piece for Bosh you got to be crazy. He is an injury prone slasher with no jump shot. He would be a perfect fit with Bosh but to trade Bosh for Wallace is worst then the Gasol deal. Lot worse!!!

I love Josh Smith game but he is not consistence enough on the offense end. His defense and energy is top notch but still need to work on is offensive skill set. Too limited at this point in his career...

Luol Deng for CB4 is ridiculous. Deng is one of few NBA players whose stats decrease every year. He can play on both side of the court but every year since is big break-out season in 06/07 he seem to regression mode.
PPG 18.8 - 17.5 - 14.5
FG% 0.517% - 0.479% - 0.452%
Not the guy who want to trade for.

Is CB4 un-tradeable? No but at this point we would not get the right value for him unless Lebron or Kobe said "I WANT TO PLAY IN TO" Dreaminnnnn. Since we are in dream mode let trade CB4 for Lebron, Wade, Kobe or CP3. No that would be a steal.

Trading CB4 for any of those guys above is like me saying let trade CB4 for Wade. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

Blanco,

You are obviously a young teenaged girl, because you couldn't debate me without taking it personal and getting all pouty and calling names. Chump.

Your argument is still flawed. Jackass. You will get 50 cents on the dollar for any trade involving Bosh. You always do for players of his ilk.

Baragni is best suited to play Centre in this league as his value is brining big centres out of the lane using his mobility and shooting and thereby creating matchup problems for other teams. By moving him to power forward you lessen that advantage. Jack Armstrong, Doug Smith, Grange and most respected pundits have said as much. For some reason you don't seem to get that point. Dope.

Your thinking is ass backwards. Dummy. As you should build on your advantages, for example add MORE talent instead of latteral moves. ADD a player to Bosh/Bargs/Calderone instead of going sideways. Stupid.

There see I can call you names too. Ya big baby

And yes, so what if i am challenged... because in truth, i am challenged and i think it is mean for you to call me that... may god take you down

That last post was not me. Real mature ladies...

ROKO FOR MVP

... next year.

Guys - Enough with the name calling. If you need your fix head to RealGM.

Guess we don't need to look for a backup PG anymore.

Not to rain on your parade bedhead but it is a touch early to designate Roko as the backup. One good game does not a career make. I do like him though.
Let us end the Bosh debate right now. To all the people who think we should trade Bosh right now, you are dreaming. The absolute truth is that players of Bosh's level and age do not get traded in the NBA unless they demand to be traded. I dare you to name one player who was 24 and an annual all-star who was traded away from his team without asking to be traded. I thought about it and the only name I could think of was Arenas (and that is because I do not remember the circumstances of how he got traded to Washington and I am not even sure if he had been to an all-star game yet). BC will not trade Bosh until Bosh says it is ok to do so as it will hurt the Raptors more (from a FA perspective) in the long run than any thing you could get back in a trade for him. Who will want to sign with a team who will trade them without their consent? Until Chris Bosh says "trade me" he will be here even after next season's trade deadline as BC has no choice but to gamble that he can resign him. That was the reason that Grunwald couldn't trade McGrady even though he knew he wasn't going to resign (don't kid yourselves, McGrady may have said all the right things but Grunwald would have been an idiot to not read between the lines).