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Tip-In: Toronto Raptors Post-Game Report - Now What?


After not only the worst loss of the season, but perhaps one of the worst in franchise history, the HQ breaks down the grim situation facing the Toronto Raptors...

Star-divide

Before penning this recap this morning, I spent about 30 minutes scouring the net for Raptors news.

In the wake of a ridiculous 146 to 115 loss to the Atlanta Hawks last night, I fully expected to wake up this morning and find that Bosh had been traded, Triano had been fired, Colangelo had resigned, or possibly all of the above.

However unless Twitter has led me astray, things are pretty quiet.

Well...

...that is in regard to any sort of major change in Raptorland.

The fans, as our "Rapid Recap" will attest to, are being anything but quiet.  Here's a sampling of some of last night's best comments via Twitter:

skittlebrau78 Dear Bryan Colangelo, perhaps it's time to start over

RapsFan Im actually cheering for the Hawks to score 150

cuzoogle Man the nets are wishing they could face the raps

sportsguy33 If you're thinking about moving to Toronto, Chris Bosh's house and Bryan Colangelo's house are going on the market any day.

bruce_arthur I'm looking forward to seeing which lucky fan gets to score 10 points in the fourth quarter for Atlanta.

And there there's this killer analogy by one of our readers post-game which does a nice job summing up the job many feel Jay Triano has done so far as the coach of the Raps:

Jay is kind of like that girlfriend your mother likes because she says the right things and comes across as really on the ball. You think to yourself, maybe this will work because she’s been asked out by a cool guy before, even claims to have studied the Kama Sutra and knows what to do in theory. Problem is, you’ve been with her for a year and something just doesn’t work and it hasn’t for a while. When the lights go down and it’s time to get down to action, you suspect she doesn’t quite know what she’s doing, but it’s hard to break up because your mother likes her. Eventually, you’ve got to move on, though because you still haven’t found the one and each day it’s becoming clearer that she’s not it.

So where to start here?

Do we really need to get into the specifics of a complete laugher of a game, or should we head right into the "who can we trade for whom" part of the post?

The truth is I feel a bit like one of the CSI detectives this morning trying to sort through the wreckage of what is slowling becoming a train-wreck of an NBA season for the Toronto Raptors.

But let's start with last night's game.

I'm not going to go into too much detail here, most of us saw the carnage.  But suffice to say that giving up 42 points in the second quarter blew the doors off the hinges, and things just snowballed from there:

-9 Hawks in double figures

-Nearly 60 per cent shooting from the field, 52 per cent from beyond the arc

-A 51 to 29 rebounding advantage for the Hawks

-100 points given up by the Raps well before the fourth quarter even began

-Randolph Morris and Jason Collins played

How's that for ugly with a capital U?

The thing is, the Raps, by their recent standards, played a decent first quarter.  Sure they gave up 33 points, but scored 26 themselves and were hanging around.  But that's when the team's two major flaws reared their ugly heads and things started to go downhill fast.

Problem 1:

Without any sort of defensive ability, this team's margin of error is ridiculously small.  I noted last night that when Toronto was hitting shots, then things were going ok.  The team was essentially trading baskets with the Hawks but were neck-and-neck.  However once those shots started to rim out, suddenly, it was the little things that started to turn the tide.  A Josh Smith rebound here, an open Mike Bibby 3 there, and then Atlanta started to take the lead.  An 8 points deficit early in a game shouldn't be a sink-hole - the NBA game is truly a game of runs.  However Toronto is so porous defensively, that when the offense isn't clicking, they can't keep the opponent at that "8 point advantage" range and suddenly 8 points becomes 12, which becomes 17...game over.  The current group of Toronto starters, Bosh aside, just doesn't make those extra plays and it ends up costing them a few chippy points early on.  And without the ability to make stops, those points are all the opposition needs to start blowing things wide open, in particular when Toronto can't sustain their own offense.

Problem 2:

The other major thing I keep observing is a lack of dribble penetration on offense.  Right now, so much of this team's offense comes from jump shots and 3-pointers that when these stop falling, the well almost completely dries up.  As well, misses on these type of shots lead directly to run-outs by opponents, something we've seen that the Raptors are abysmal at stopping.  This gives the other team easy baskets in transition, and further plays into the first problem; easy baskets that spiral a 6 or 8 point deficit into something much worse.

I thought one of the reasons Toronto stuck around early, is that DeMar DeRozan was able to attack the basket.  This allowed TO to mix things up offensively, and prevented Atlanta from taking off baseline to baseline after possessions.  However there's just not nearly enough of this as evidenced by this stat from 82games.com; so far this season 66% of the Raptors shots are jumpers outside the paint.  That's fine if you're the Orlando Magic (who also shoot that percentage of J's) and have Dwight Howard cleaning up misses, but on a Toronto team that's so poor from a rebounding perspective, it can be disastrous.

So again, where does the team go from here?

Well for starters, nothing.

I don't want to see any major changes before this week is up.  Yes, they got owned last night but if I'm Bryan Colangelo or even Jay Triano, I give the team two more games to show some signs of life.  The club can definitely beat their next two opponents but needs to show a lot more pride, passion and fight, something Chris Bosh commented on post-game:

"We've got to care about it," Bosh said. "That's what it comes down to. Have some pride. Without that pride teams just score at will, like they did tonight.  

"If we did care we wouldn't give up 145 points."

However. should these next two games result in losses as well, Bryan Colangelo has some major decisions to make.

Many talking heads this morning are already saying that this game signified the proverbial "last straw" for Chris Bosh, and whether that's the case or not, something needs to be done.

As Howland put it to me post-game last night: "either BC needs to believe that this team catches lightning in a bottle and turns it around before Christmas, or they've gotta move Bosh now before the low-ball offers start coming in."

And what about Jay Triano and crew?  I'm not at all convinced that he's the major issue here but there's no question this is now a problem; NBA teams, no matter how absent of talent, don't regularly allow opponents to score 115 points a game.  Said Jarrett Jack post-game in regards to the coaches' approach this season:

"Every time something happens it’s always, `It’s okay, it’s all right.’ It’s not all right," said Jarrett Jack, the reserve guard. "Problems go by without attacking them or challenging them or bringing them to the forefront and getting them solved. We can’t keep keep putting them to the back of the bus and just saying, `That’s okay.’ It’s not all right. Everybody can’t walk on eggshells around here and say, `We’re playing good basketball.’ We’re not."

Yikes.  If Jay hasn't already lost this group, there's no question he's teetering on the brink.  Somehow he needs to get this group back on track.

While I maintain this group of players is overrated for the most part, there's no question they shouldn't be this bad.  Toronto's schedule the rest of the month includes some very winnable games against clubs like Minnesota and New Jersey so if the Raps can somehow dig deep and grab these next two, there's no reason they still can't right the ship.

To do that, maybe it's time to try another starting five?  Maybe you can't start Amir for Andrea, or Doug Smith for Hedo Turkoglu, but let's stop the DeRozan experiment for a minute.  Yes, he was one of the lone bright spots last night but overall this year, he's helping put Toronto in a hole early.  Again, looking at 82games.com, only Sonny Weems, Antoine Wright and Patrick O'Bryant have worse "net production ratings;" that is to say, their own production gets badly outweighed by that of their opponent's.  Try Marco, try Weems, try Wright, try something to shake things up.  This team needs a win badly to stop the bleeding so if even a seemingly minor change like that works, then you've gotta do it.

Put it this way.

We've basically reached the quarter mark on the schedule already and this team looks like a much worse version of the one that ended last season.  I think over the next few games, we'll see if that's indeed the case as it's usually in a team's darkest hour that fans get a glimpse of just what a club is made of.

There's lots of fault to go around, from players to management, but right now instead of pointing fingers, I want to see this club band together and start to put up some fight.

I'm hoping that last night's game represents this season's turning point, and from here, the Raptors use December's schedule to build a bit of momentum heading into the new year.

Because if the 146 to 115 loss doesn't serve as a turning point, it may indeed be the final nail in the playoff coffin, only 20 games into the season.

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Yup

Instead of feeding off each other’s strengths players seem careless because of each other weakness. It gets to a point than you have to do your beast as a matter of personal and team pride. This is the same team that looked good in several victories and there is no reason to let other teams make a fool of you, they are at the moment.

by renato on Dec 3, 2009 9:59 AM EST reply actions  

I'm definitely waiting...

To see JJ start. He’s the king of dribble penetration for the raptors.

by dchoubak on Dec 3, 2009 10:43 AM EST reply actions  

dig deep

i like you say “raps have to dig deep to grab a win against new jersey and minnesota”….speaks volumes about us.

by nannerb on Dec 3, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

Yes it does…because right now, is anyone convinced this team can get a sure-fire win even on clubs like the Nets and Wolves? I was speaking more in general terms of “digging deep” over the next few weeks but this applies to each and every game unfortunately.

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Zero Rebounds

How does a 7 foot center grab zero rebounds? How, in God’s name, HOW????
I am a rabid Raptors fan but last night I was at a total loss for words. There’s good talent on this team but how did things get so bad so quickly?

by OneAndDone on Dec 3, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

I think that’s a major question on everyone’s mind right now. Would love to hear BC’s take on the situation too…wonder if he’ll be on the Fan590 or if he’s keeping a low profile…

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

And remember this is the guy a lot of fans are calling to build around in the event that Bosh leaves. Bargnani is probably a bench player on a decent team.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 3, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe we should be Frank

Does it make sense to hire an 0-16 coach to lead a 7-13 team for the remainder of the season? And then to send your cornerstone player to that coach’s former team for a second year centre and a former 2nd round pick as an early Christmas present. Yup.

Does it make sense to send your highly regarded point guard and your major free agent signing to a team that your free agent signing left at the altar, in exchange for whatever young under used talent that team is willing to give you? Yup.

Should we wait 20 more games to commit to a course of action, only to look back at the first 20 and regret we didn’t act sooner? Nope.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 3, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with JJ

I just want to say that we can’t blow things up. We just rebuilt the team. For like the 5th time.

So what do we do now? We value defence. Like you say, Jay has been saying all the right things, but why is it that we have our 5 worst defensive players starting? Every position has a better defender coming off the bench (if you think Amir is better than Bosh). I think the most glaring dedfensive weakness is Jose – and the biggest improvement we could make by one positional change is to bring Jose off the bench. It also sends a message. I might even consider starting another big that rebounds until Andrea realises that he has to board EVERY game.

It wouldn’t be the end of the world to have those two coming off the bench either. Jose always claimed to be happy to come off the bench. It might hurt Barg’s confidence, but I honestly think he could rebound better than he does. It seems some games he comees out and wants to hit the boards and comes out with 8-11. A wake up call might let him know that a 10mil 7’centre NEEDS to bet at least 7 boards.

As for the starters, you still have Jack’s penetration, Hedo’s playmaking and Bosh’s scoring. DD and Rasho/Amir can both play their roles – non scoring roles. Bosh/hedo/jack should be plenty of scoring. Especially when your bench would bring Bargs, Jose, Bellinelli off the bench. Bring in Wright to replace Hedo and you guarentee that you will always have at leat 2 solid defenders on the floor at one time. Sure we might lose some scoring, but we can afford to – and we can’t afford to be this bad on D.

Besides, if we at least change up the personnel on the floor, we’ll be less likely to lose the wrong people in a trade. Go Raps… hmm

Walker McKenna

by Robert Archibald on Dec 3, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

Here's an idea

Franchise, maybe you and bloggers from other disappointing/under performing teams should start a weekly collaborative feature called “Fixing with the Enemy”, where you discuss tangible trade scenarios for mutually beneficial short and long term futures. Every year we seem to get to this point earlier and earlier. We might as well find a way to make the most of it.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 3, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

I like it

So we start with the Wiz tomorrow then???

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Why Not

I could see some of Washington’s pieces working well in exchange for some of Toronto’s pieces. Or you could wait for Chicago and contemplate Deng/Noah for Bosh/Turkoglu scenarios or whatever makes sense for both sides.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 3, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The key to this mess is underlined in Jarrett Jack’s comment that Triano’s approach is to say that everything is okay. Has Triano been watching the games or knitting socks on the sideline? It is clear from what he said that Jack has no respect for Triano or for his wish upon a star approach. Who can blame him? Lazy passes, no dribble drives, no extra moves, no defensive scheme, no offensive scheme, NO CORRECTIVE ACTION….how is everything going to be alright? Jay needs to go. Pride, motivation, accountability, game plan – you shouldn’t have to tell a coach that saying “it’s alright” doesn’t take care of any of those most basic roles Triano is completely incapable of filling. Wait and see? Are you freaking kidding me? Sit a mop in Jay’s chair – it couldn’t perform any worse.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

So...

Who do you replace him with?

I’m not saying Jay’s not part of the problem but frankly, Phil Jackson couldn’t turn this into a 50 win team. Coaching needs an upgrade, but so does this roster in a major way…

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember doing stats for a CBA team in the ealry 80’s and watching George Karl’s team kill every other team in the league. I see no major difference in his approach toaday from what I saw then. Always a passionate leader. It’s not a matter of who replaces Triano. It’s more a matter of what kind of leader you want at the helm. Is Jay going to turn things around? No. He won’t because he has no fire in his gut and/or no ability to translate that into action. There is no way this team turns it around with Triano. So start onterviewing hungry young guys who aren’t sleep walking. Look at all the young coaches making names for themselves in the NFL this year. The must be someone who fits that mould in ghe upcoming NBA ranks. Triano is not likely to grow a pair, which seems to me to be the key ingredient in a leader. I would take CBA George Karl any day over NBA Triano.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait...

…you’re talking about the same George Karl who was inches from being canned before Chauncey Billups arrived via trade right?

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

One and the same. I am not a Nuggets fan, but have many friends and family who are. They all hate Karl – think he sits guys at the wrong time and don’t agree with much of what he does. But they still go to the games – which they mostly win, by the way. I would not be praying for Triano to be fired if he had any discernible personality to offer. He is about as inspiring as long nap. Love or hate your coach – no problem! Indifference – that’s a problem. Or have the Raptors not seemed to be indifferent to anything that happens on the floor lately?

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, Phil might turn this into a 45 win team and that would be okay

Technically, Triano might actually be competent, but a lot of successful coaching requires players buying into what the coach is telling them. They know what they’re doing and why they’re doing it so the execution is better. Everyone’s on the same page and things look cohesive. Butch was a motherf***er and most players probably didn’t like him, but he had them competitive so the complaints were subtle until the headband thing. Stan Van Gundy is kind of the same way.

The Raps look confused on the defensive end, and the trickle down is that players, losing as badly as their losing, are starting to feel embarrassed. Professional athletes don’t like to be embarrassed. If the team were losing while being competitive, it would be different, it would still be bothersome but the player wouldn’t feel as if they were being laughed at by putting on the jersey. This has the look of an impending mutiny.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 3, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

As I stated Earlier Today

Firing the Coach will not fix this team. Who are you going to replace him with? Lawrence Franks did a decent job when he had RJ, VC and JK on his team but they have been going downhill since then. What makes you think any other coach will do the job better? Last year everyone declared that Smitch was the problem only the team actually go worse when he was fired (they had an 8-9 record when he was fired). It is time to stop blaming the coaches and start blaming the players. If JJ doesn’t like how the other players are playing maybe he should step up and do something other than jack up(if you will forgive the pun) ill advised shots. People who constantly blame the coach lack imagination as it is easy to blame the coach. If Triano truly has lost this team then yes it is time to go but I think the issue here goes much deeper than a failure to come up with a defensive scheme (wasn’t Ivaroni brought in to fix that issue?).
As for trading Turk this year, forget it. No one is going to take on that contract unless they are sending an equally bad one back (can you say Eddy Curry). Bosh is the only trading piece right now so if there is a deal, it will probably be him.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Why blame the coach? Are you kidding? Sure, Sloan is not coming to Toronto. So what? Wanna bet that the words "Everything is alright" have never come out of Sloan’s mouth in response to disaster. That Triaino’s approach seems to be to cross his fingers and hope really hard as he’s saying "it’s alright" while everything crumbles around him just doesn’t cut it. We may not get Sloan himself, but shouldn’t we search for a Sloan, a Van Gundy, a Riley or a Jackson type at least. Why would anyone be happy with the Nero, or captain of the Titanic type we have now? A coach who cannot inspire, motivate and challenge a team needs to find another line of work.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

Smitch rode his players hard everyday and how did that work out? Firing the coach is done because it is an easy thing to do (scapegoating) but it rarely fixes the problem. The problem with this team isn’t that the coach is touchy feely, its that the players themselves are touchy feely. As I said, maybe Jack should shut the hell up and do some challenging himself instead of bitching to the media. Triano could ride them till sunday like Smitch did and they would still be soft. If you recall it wasn’t until Oak was here that the Raps actually started to show some gumption and that is what the players need now. A guy to bust their balls and back up it up on the court.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Change

I heard Lawrence Franks is available..you know…the guy who killed us in the playoffs..the guy who outthinked smitch..the guy who got fired because he was dealt with the seven deuce instead of full house..Just a thought. That or Triano shakes things up.

I also heard Antione Write plays good D…and Hedo can’t..I heard Hedo can make plays and make guys better….I heard our second unit needs someone who can do what Hedo does..and that our first unit is lacking D

Jose starts to facilitate offence with the starters..and Hedo plays point for the second unit..of course this would be a dumb idea since he is our big offseason signing..

Or put Wright in for Derozan. Sucks for the rookie because he plays solid as a rookie..it’s just the team needs more.

Charles Oakley said it best…You don’t put all scorers in your starting five. There is only one ball. You are wasting your scoring talent by putting them all together because some of them won’t e able to score. Need more toughness so put in Wright and Amir..either / or/ both. plug the holes in parts of the lineup. We have a surplus in some parts so share it to the second unit.

by teedotaj on Dec 3, 2009 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed. The team needs to shake up the starting lineup but BC will have to okay it first.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

BTW – If BC does fire Triano now he will using up his last strike if there are no results. Firing Smitch was a walk because he inherited him. Firing Triano who he did hire will count against him in the grand scheme of things. That is why I think he will trade Bosh before he fires Jay. He can claim Bosh forced his hand. If he fires Triano and they still suck or suck more, it will paint a massive target on his back.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

So, you never swing with two strikes against you? Hmmm. I wonder how many big time hitters share that philosophy? Sounds like a recipe for mediocrity. Oh – wait. We already have that in spades in Toronto.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I find it ironic that you bring up mediocrity with Toronto when this team has had almost as many coaches in its history as it has had years. Did it ever occur to you that stability in the coaching position can play a factor in success. Every year multiple teams fire their coaches and do nothing (Washington and Philly both come to mind) while teams like SA and Utah have had the same coach for years. That is ultimately my point about firing the coach, it’s an easy solution but it rarely fixes the problem. I wasn’t a huge fan of firing Smitch last year for the same reason. This team needs stability and an actual long term plan. BC has constantly taken the Maple Leaf approach of selling crap as gold to keep the fan base happy instead of actually having a long term plan and then implementing it. You can fire a coach every day with that formula and you end up with the same result.

P.S. George Karl also worked as an assistant for years (in the NBA) before he got his first job.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And you can cross you fingers and tell yourself everything is alright. Stability only amounts to a hill of beans if your foundations are strong. Triano is no strong foundation. If BC hasn’t got the guts to swing with two strikes against him, maybe he isn’t either. This team has no leadership. Seems to me that a coach is the most logical place to look for leadership. Players come and go for any number of reasons. I wish I saw some kind of spark in Triano. I agree that stability is important – point being that Utah has stability with Sloan and didn’t settle on stability with Barney Rubble. Get the right guy first – the get stable.

PS. I am fully aware that George Karl assisted for years before going to Montana as CBA head coach. Your point being what? As a head head coach in the CBA Karl was all that and a bottle of Coke. Triano barely qualifies as warm, flat root beer.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, and you got all this from 1 season with 2 entirely different teams? Maybe you are right and Triano is the second coming of O’Neill but I prefer to wait to see if that is the case (at least a little while longer) as firing him now will achieve absolutely nothing. Any new coach will have to undo the work done by Triano and his staff and then take time to implement a new system all on the fly. By the time he is done the season will be at the 50 game mark. Franks was fired in NJ not because he sucked but because the franchise is going nowhere anyway so bringing in someone else mid season is no big deal. Toronto is suppose to be a contender and firing Triano now will kill any chance of that happening this season unless the next coach can build off of Triano’s work and improve on it somehow. While I agree that Triano may not be the long term solution at coach, I cannot figure out why you believe firing him will in the middle of the season will help them in any way shape or form. This team is poorly constructed (in your words, it has a poor foundation) but the foundation is the players not the coach.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I got this from his approach and his results. I can be patient with someone I believe even if they fail for a time if I can see where they plan to arrive and how they plan to do it. I do that every day with people who work for me. I also sometimes have to consider that some people just don’t what the hell they are doing and that maybe they should move on. Maybe Triano has a Top Secret Plan and this lackluster, who cares approach is some kind of genius foreplay to the actual orgasm of victory he is moving toward. Illuminate me. Educate me.
If we are passing milestones on the path to wherever the hell it is he plans to get us, Triano should be a decent guy and point a couple of them out. I dount that is the case. So shoot me for wanting to maybe… you know… consider getting a bus driver who won’t fall asleep at the wheel.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I posted this earlier about Karl but I’ll say it again – Karl was on extremely thin ice in Denver before the Billups deal went down and saved him. Yes, coaching has an impact at this level but it’s not the NCAA – the players are the ones that are the difference makers in the end. Even Phil Jackson’s Lakers clubs struggled with only Kobe.

I wasn’t a Mitchell fan but knew when he was canned that it wouldn’t make a difference over the long term – this club still lacks leadership and still has far too many players that are overrated.

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

One Final Thing – Franks can’t coach for the Raptors right now anyway as he is still under contract with NJ.

by McGateway on Dec 3, 2009 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

Hmmm I wonder what the headline will be next year.

Dec 3, 2009 – “Fire the Coach!” (7-13)
Dec 3, 2008 – “Fire the Coach!” (8-9)
Dec 3, 2007 – “Fire the Coach!” (10-8)
Dec 3, 2006 – “Fire the Coach!” (7-10)
Dec 3, 2005 – “Fire the Coach!” (3-15)
Dec 3, 2004 – “Fire the Coach!” (7-11)
Dec 3, 2003 – “Fire the Coach!” (9-8)
Dec 3, 2002 – “Fire the Coach!” (6-11)
Dec 3, 2001 – “Woot!” (11-7)

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

I guess that underlines my point. Until they establish a clear set of criteria for what they are looking for they should expect more of the same. Or is there anyone who thinks Triano did anything more than fall ass backwards into this job by being convenient at the time they fired Sam? Puhlease! When you promote through necessity and convenience that’s what you can expect. Every man on the team has shown that he can play. Triano has had a good seat at the games. That’s about it. I have yet to see Triano have even to a small degree the kind of impact a competent coach can bring. Seems to me that the string of firings point more to not being clear on what they want than anything else. If Triano is the long term solution for the Raps? I gues I will fall into lockstep with Jay’s approach. Cross my fingers, click my heels, and tell myself that everything is okay. Could someone please pass the Kool-Aide ?

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue, it’s the players not the coach. If you really think we have a great talent pool, that’s where I think you’re wrong. I predicted a slow start before watching a game of preseason… but that’s because of my analysis of the players and the schedule.

Forget the Raps for a sec, overall in the entire league, there arn’t that many surprises. For the most part, every teams record (based on their difficulty of their schedule) is exactly what you would guess.

As I keep stating, this has been a very profitable year if you’re gambling on basketball.

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, yeah. All the coaches who don’t make a difference will surely agree with you. So, let me just concede to your point that the coach makes no difference. I refer back to an earlier argument I made: Put a mop in Triano’s chair. It could hardly perform worse. OR find a coach in the system somewhere who has some cojones, a personaility, the will to win, the will to challenge his players to achieve more. My first vote goes to a hungry coach. My second vote goes to the mop. My third to an empty chair and my fourth to Triano.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I say we start a Hire “Smitch” chant. :)

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I stand by the empty chair vote. Sam wasn’t and probably still isn’t ready.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Missing something...

It’s not that your points are wrong – or badly thought out – it’s just that the analysis is clearly missing a piece of the puzzle if it can’t explain why some coaches over the course of very long careers produce FAR superior win-loss records.

It’s not a fluke the best coaches win – consistently – over long, long periods of time. There are good reasons for it. You’re just basically saying you have trouble identifying the reasons.

by teamd on Dec 3, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Answer: Coaches with good coaching records have great players.

Look if you’re asking me whether coaches make great teams/players or players make great coaches? I’d choose #2. Again.. this is in the NBA world. I’ll give my reasoning tomorrow.

All NBA coaches are the same.

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

How do you explain

Houston coming out to compete every night with or without Ming or MacGrady?

by Posterized on Dec 4, 2009 7:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Golden State twice, Thunder Twice, Clippers Once, Kings Once, Timberwolves once, Grizzlies once.

Acknowledged Big wins: Lakers, Portland

by Ustation on Dec 4, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Not just this season, last season as well. Adelman has that team prepped to compete regardless of roster.

by Posterized on Dec 4, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

The team, even well coached, is not a championship team. I agree. And I could take the losing record if they seemed to working on a plan. Every game I watch, I wait for that quarter when they are going to stop playing and give the game away. It happens every time. It IS the coach’s responsibility to have a team on the floor for the entire game. Also, whose responsibility is to to FORCE the team to stop passing around the perimeter? Whose responsibility is to sit guys who are too lazy or unsure to drive to the rim so they just throw up bricks from the cheap seats? Whose repsonsibility is it to sit guys who can’t be bothered to challenge on the boards? There is no accountability or consequences for players who play like heroes one night and bums the next. So they are embarrassed. And that is supposed to make things better. Someone needs to pull their head out of …..the sand and start making some decisions – a plan – a set of expectations – guidelines – SOMETHING..ANYTHING.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahhh the frustrated fan… I feel for you buddy.

All I can say is, I missed guessing the Raptor record by 1 game. And let me tell you the coach wasn’t part of the consideration. In fact, October has been so profitable across the NBA, I just booked a trip courtesy of the profits.

Put it this way, I don’t trust the analysis from bloggers, newspaper writers, heck even other coaches or former players.. I do trust people who wage on games for a living. THEY know! And I know you’re frustrated, but this team is almost exactly .. umm in the famous words of Dennis Greene, who we think they are.

Soooo.. unless the NBA changes the Cap rules (not that I’m in favour of that), you’re stuck watching a team based on where the lotto balls fall and whether your scouting staff was any good. Even then, the luck factor depends on who’s in the lotto: (see my why the Raps will never win a Championship arguement http://www.raptorshq.com/2009/11/20/1166431/raptors-will-never-win-a)

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

So what I’m saying is..

This team wasn’t projected to be that good.. and well.. they arn’t.

And I know I know.. some of you think Tom Thibadeau is god, but I still would have the same Win/Loss rec.

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s how they’re doing the losing rather than the actual record that has us concerned. I think some of us are now worried beyond this season as well. But you are correct. Vegas and such have the best statisticians for a reason.

And are you Bob Mccown? lol

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 3, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

And...

…lest we forget that at one point, there was another assistant coach that fans were DYING for…

…right…Marc Iavaroni…

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

you beat me to it.

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

This I totally agree with however...

…while I’m arguing that firing the coach won’t solve anything, it IS extremely disconcerting to see the team fold like clockwork every game. And that I would say has to do with coaching.

My biggest worry in all of this is that Triano doesn’t have the power to make the changes he wants to make. I talked with him post-game Sunday and he had some great ideas about game-plans but really, is Colangelo going to let him do something like pull Bargs from the starting line-up or bench Hedo?

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Surely

A “great basket ball mind” (not my words) like Colangelo’s could see that having Turk and or Bargs come off the bench could change the whole dynamic of the team. We may be arguing over wehter or not to fire Triano, but I think we all agree that a lineup shakeup could be beneficial.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong, I was never a fan of the Triano hiring while the average fan was celebrating the dismissal of Smitch. All I’m saying is Triano’s not having affecting their record positively or negatively to date, and neither did Smitch. The call for Smitch’s firing from these same fans were premature, as is the same now.

For the record, I wanted Eddie Jordan and the Princeton.

by Ustation on Dec 3, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I was going to post something along those lines because it should be obvious from Jacks and Wrights comments that at least one or more of the 3 starters are being singled out by their comments. Calderon is the prime suspect but Turk and Bargs are right there as well. We all saw what happened to Smitch when he didn’t follow the program so Triano is left with doing nothing more than coddling those three when a good benching would do them some good. BC will of course say Tri is the coach but we all know his leash is short as he is a career assistant at the NBA level.

by McGateway on Dec 4, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

But by the logic that Triano “fell into it,” then didn’t D’Antoni do the same thing? In fact didn’t MOST of the coaches in the league eventually “fall into it?” At some point inexperienced coaches get a shot, and a lot of the time it’s because their predecessor gets the boot.

Look, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Triano’s done a great job – but it’s the players here that are the major issue. Even with an experienced NBA coach this team would still be lousy on the defensive end and underperform, I’m 100 per cent certain of that.

I don’t think Triano’s the long-term solution, but I don’t think firing him fixes everything here.

And you know what’s REALLY scary? Colangelo GUSHED on media day about the preparedness of Triano and his crew…

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

out there !!!

Laugh out loud if you so choose,but can we not bring in some pshyco ex players a la Oak or Rodman for that manner to teach these guys how to play with heart and balls !!! obviously the present coaching crew cannot get their point acrross or the students are mentally challenged !!!

by d279 on Dec 3, 2009 2:37 PM EST reply actions  

Just tossing in my 2 cents...

Triano himself, I don’t think is going to get most of the blame on this, even though the players interact with him the most and he’s the guy at the top of the ladder giving orders. Problem is, is a fundamental problem with the philosophy of this team from top to bottom. It was going to be a problem no matter how you look at it, but choosing to play certain players over others has exasperated the issue. The best thing to do for this team for now is to shake up this lineup a lot. If you don’t play D and aren’t aggressive, you’re going to sit. That’s all. Learn by enforcing rules. That’s how you’re going to get this team back on track for now. That’s just about all you can do when we’re locked into so many contracts.

There has to be a change in philosophy on this team to commit it to winning rather than development of their ideas and players. Until that happens, this team isn’t going anywhere.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 3, 2009 4:23 PM EST reply actions  

2 cents

I agree,but the only way that works is if everybody is held to the same standard regardless of the pedigree or country of origin…

by d279 on Dec 3, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

2 cents

If Triano has the character and courage to sit players who are not performing I will be the first to eat my words about firing him. What I have observed from Triano, however, makes me doubt that expectations are clearly articulated to the team, that a plan is in place with goals associated to the plan, or that performance is measured on a dialy basis and adjustments made to keep the focus on the systematic achievement of the goal. The team seems comletely lost, without a rudder to guide it and without the grit to take a hard look in the mirror and admit that everything is NOT alright and that it won’t be until direction is clearly provided by SOMEONE – ANYONE. If that ends up being a player who steps up and takes the lead then good for that player and shame on BC and Triano. Leaders should lead. If they are not leading, aren’t they just getting in the way?

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how much of that has to do with keep Colangelo happy on some level. A lot of face will be lost if Bargs or Turk have to have shortened games, or if DeRozan is out of the starting rotation I think. Do I think he has the cojones to do it? I do actually believe so, if his clipboard crackin’ impulses are any indication. I just don’t know if this team has that leadership anymore. Remember, Anthony Parker left, and I still don’t know who took over his captaincy on this team. Bosh seems like he’s tired of preaching the same thing for yet another year… So who will do it? Calderon can, but like everyone has said, people can only point other people out if they are playing well.

So what now? Coaches, right? Alvin Williams? lol.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 3, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I've often wondered

if the lack of experimentation in the lineups this season was the result of Colangelo playing the role of the heavy handed GM. It wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened in sports.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh God, please don’t tell me BC is the Al Davis of the NBA. I can’t take it – I am also a die hard Raiders fan. At least my flames are looking good.

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe we should suit up Iginla

He may not score a basket, but he’d probably have put a foot up Pierce’s arse. ; )

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, but you can’t tell me he doesn’t have a bit of an ego and reputation at stake here. He decided not to resign Marion at a cheaper price than Turk, promised us this team will get tougher and stronger and made certain commitments to the fanbase about what to expect for this upcoming year.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 3, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, BC needs to shut up

Two years running now he has over hyped underperforming teams.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Flames fan too...

Good call – taking some solace in that.

And yes…I worry a lot about Colangelo being the Al Davis type truthfully…but an Al Davis in a big-collared shirt and french cuffs.

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t DeRozan is starting because BC believes he fits best as much as they do not want him to get lost in the rotation. He is a project and it is easy to push him to the end of the bench and forget about him (much like Smitch wanted to do with Bargnani). Starting him isn’t an issue if you keep his minutes limited but TurCaldagni is a massive defensive black hole and benching the rookie isn’t going to change that.

by McGateway on Dec 4, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Coaching problem???

Problems with the Raptors.

-We have a leader who five years ago was relishing the chance to make the Raptors “his team” with the departure of Vince Carter. Yet, has done nothing in terms of leadership since. Sure he puts up good numbers, but he doesn’t yell. Yelling takes energy. He needs to conserve his energy. It also takes energy to pad your stats. He’s in a contract year you know.

-We have a back up point guard pointing the finger at the coach off the court. Meanwhile, on the court, he’s putting up ill advised shots and racking up a whopping eight points and three assists in twenty four minutes of playing time a game. All to the tune of five million a year.

-We have a veteran savvy clutch off season free agent acquisition who has shown us very little veteran savvy or late game “clutchness” if you will.

-We have a seven foot center who seems completely ambivalent to rebounding.

-We have a “defensive stopper” wingman who hasn’t really stopped anyone, but questions the teams “defensive identity”.

-We have a point guard who acts as a turnstile on defense, then throws his hands up in the air in disbelief when he is benched.

-We have (and I said this earlier, but I will say it again) a grit and toughness guy who laughs when his star player takes a hit to the cubies.

Fact: When said hit took place, Triano and the coaching staff were the only ones to react, while the rest of the players stood around with their tails between their legs. Obviously, Triano is lacking guts and heart and balls and whatever else.

Clearly their is a coaching issue and we must “Fire Jay Triano”.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 4:58 PM EST reply actions  

In two games turk’s got the opportunity to tie the game and the ball slid out of his hands. i mean seriously, if you’re clutch the least you can do is to hold the ball.

by dchoubak on Dec 3, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

That is Jay Triano’s fault.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Great discussion

Laughing at the last comment but Posterized, in all seriousness, band on assessment of this team.

It’s unfotunate, but toss in an inexperienced head coach and this current situation is the reality check we’re left with as fans.

by Adam Francis on Dec 3, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

I can concede that Triano’s inexperience as an NBA coach does have something to do with our current situation. However, I think it is a small part of a larger problem. I’m getting all mixed up going back and forth trying to keep up with all the new posts, but I think it was you who posted not too long ago that Triano sounded like he had some interesting ideas but seemed like his hands were tied. Before we fire the newbie coach, I think we have to at least consider some line up changes. Balance out the starting unit. There is nothing wrong with highly paid players coming off the bench to provide some scoring on the second unit. Provided BC allows it.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Coaching PROBLEM

You know you’ve got a problem when the coach won’t even ACKNOWLEDGE that he’s got the worst defense in the NBA.

Someone who knew what they were doing would be the first to bring it up and the first to outline specifically what they were going to do to fix it.

If you have players who can’t trust the expertise of the coach to show them the way, of course you’re going to start getting a lot of problems with motivation etc.

This is one of the most head-in-the-sand excuses for leadership I’ve ever seen. If you’ve ever played on a team, you wouldn’t be surprised that all the cracks are starting to show.

Why there is such a huge amount of sympathy for Triano is beyond me – people seem to be giving him the benefit of the doubt that they would give no other coach – why?

The job is to get results. Good coaches get the best results they can from what they’ve got to work with. If anyone thinks he’s getting the best results from the current roster, they’re high. This is not a championship roster, but it is a 45-47 win roster.

Instead this team is on its way to becoming a laughingstock; certainly a defensive one.

by teamd on Dec 3, 2009 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. WELL SAID

by firejaytriano on Dec 3, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly when do the players get held accountable then? They are thye ones making the money. They are the ones on the court, in the spot light. When do we say it’s time for the players to put up or shut up?

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point, but...

The coaches are the ones who need to hold the players accountable. That’s their job. When the players are saying the coaches are too afraid to show tape of players screwing up on defense that is a huge lack of accountability. And if players aren’t held accountable they’re going to have problems…accountability is in reality guidance. A player with no guidance is playing as an individual. It’s not up to the players to define their role in the team (past a certain point), it’s the coaches…The coaches see the forest. The players see the trees. If the coaches aren’t doing the job, you’ll just have a lot of trees doing they’re own thing…sound familiar…Then the players look bad because they’re not able to fit into any larger plan and the team sucks.

by teamd on Dec 3, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

If what’s being said about the lack of accountability is true, then yes I agree that that falls squarely on the coaches. You can’t coddle egos in professional sports. Having said that, I am still a Triano fan and eagerly await to see how he responds to this. Hopefully he pulls some magic out because I tell you, it’s getting pretty lonely on the Triano bandwagon.

by Posterized on Dec 3, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

jose must go

jose is probably the worse defender in the nba he needs to take some pride and play defence seriously jose needs to leave

by raptors_run_the_show on Dec 3, 2009 7:05 PM EST reply actions  

Two more cents

VD – Marion did not want to resign here in Toronto. Can’t blame that on BC.

Last few games it’s getting hard not to start blaming Triano.

You know, its not easy to criticize Bosh with the numbers he’s putting up, but you’ve seen the games. He’s as responsible as any for our poor defence. Seems every night he gets lit up, yet it goes unmentioned. Lately he’s been getting stripped at key times as well.. That has hurt us before. He’s a key part of our recent struggles yet not much mention.
Bargnani on the other hand, gets blasted. Would be curious to compare plus/minus between the two. Which line-ups do better. Without knowing any of these stats, I think it might be surprising.
Is Bosh a bum? No. Bargnani neither. I said this before, there is no chemistry between the two at all. They don’t seem to like each other at all.

Haven’t reached the point of demanding trades, or firing Triano. A change in the line-up might help, but still am not convinced it’s necessary. But another week of this shit, and I’ll pull out my blowhorn.

by Tinmann on Dec 3, 2009 9:37 PM EST reply actions  

I don’t remember Marion indicating he wouldn’t sign with Toronto. My understanding was that BC told him that they would be going in a different direction and lowballed him a salary offer just in case Hedo flew to Portland. Of course, I could be wrong…

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 3, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Two (Euro) cents

I gave up, it is a lost cause, there was even a specific thread on Realgm the other day (against Washington), following each Andrea’s defensive play in order to blast him out of the water. It went dry as they could not find all that much. Now, again, my point is not to come at Andrea’s rescue but the fact he is single pointed out (together with JC) as the problem is laughable. In the debacle against Atlanta he scored 13 points in 25 minutes and we was crucified, well Bosh scored 4 and you would not know it by reading this blog. There are problems in this team that go beyond individual deficiencies, otherwise you would not understand how last year’s team less JO (Injured) less Marion was performing and defending better than this.

Taking sides is not going to help and I am a bit tired to come and point at Chris’ deficiencies like it seems I can’t stand the guy, where what I find disturbing instead is the kind of pedestal some (most) Raptors fans have put him on to. By doing that, they do not help him or this team. A team, any team, to work well has to find an equilibrium, well you know what, there currently isn’t one and by the dynamic I see, likely there can’t be one at this stage.

I do not see BC trading Andrea now, when you do not know whether CB would want to stay (but do you really think you are going anywhere having max money invested in him? who do you pair him with to be successful? Some realistic name here pls). Nor I see CB wanting to stay (if not for the additional money). If you want to explore a CB trade scenario, would it make more sense trading him immediately or throw away the season and wait till the end? I saw a trade (proposed on this blog) with NJ (lopez + spares) that would be interesting from Toronto’s side, not so sure about why they would do it (if they do not have the new ownership and they do not already know they are going after Lebron or something), keep in mind Chris’ stock, outside Toronto, is not as high as many here would like to believe.

Before anybody fires up the comparison with KG in Minnesota, KG was known even back then as a defensive presence that would elevate also his team mates around him , CB, coming out of Toronto does not have such name. I believe the guy needs and deserves a fresh start but so does the Team. And before anyone cries about doom day scenarios, would it be easier to find further pieces for this team with Andrea 10M or Chris at 20 (not to mention Andrea has stated he wants to be here, Chris… meeh)? For example, would this team be worse with, I do not know, Chandler in place of Bosh? How much does Chandler cost (even now), how much Chris does ? Would we loose much on O (with the other guys we have on board now) would we gain anything on D? Would a Chandler like player help to mask JC struggles on D?

by renato on Dec 4, 2009 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Weather

I recall a couple of quotes, main being he really hated the cold. Also, quite simply, better opportunities elsewhere. The interview or quotes came after his signing with Dallas. And I honestly can’t remember where I read it, probablly SI or ESPN.

by Tinmann on Dec 3, 2009 10:16 PM EST reply actions  

Hmm.. I dunno. I know a lot of people say things when they leave and have signed. But sure… If that was the case, then I guess it was false hope.Of course, he could have burned that extra million to stay warm… :p

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 4, 2009 4:10 AM EST up reply actions  

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