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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Tip-In: Raptors Post-Game Report - Perception vs. Reality

After losing yet another winnable game, Franchise takes a moment before looking ahead to tonight's match against Atlanta, to contemplate the idea of perceived value...

Star-divide

"I don't get a vibe that they're scratching and clawing and that they're close...they gotta get it turned around, and turned around real quick here."

These were the words uttered by the one and only Jack Armstrong, after the Toronto Raptors dropped a 106 to 102 decision to the Washington Wizards last night, their eighth loss in the past 10 games.

On a one-off basis, it wasn't a bad loss.

This was two teams fighting to the finish with the Raps coming up short.  Toronto simply couldn't maintain whatever small lead they had during the match, and despite big offensive games from Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon and Chris Bosh, another L was the result.

The problem is, this wasn't two good teams going at it; no, this wasn't the Lakers and Magic in May.

This was two teams that looked like strong lottery contenders, trading bad shot for bad shot, poor defensive set for poor defensive set, and turnover for turnover.

It wasn't pretty.

And while Toronto got pummeled by Charlotte, relented to Boston's bullying tactics, and allowed Phoenix to run wild, this was the first game where I really sat back and said to myself:

"wow - these guys suck!"

And getting back to Jack's statement which I used to set off this recap, I'm not sure how even the most optimistic fan can say they don't.  The stats were good warning signs (last in most of the defensive categories and a 7 and 12 record to start with) but the proof was in last night's aptly coloured brown pudding shall we say.

That's not to say that the potential isn't there for the Raptors to be a playoff team, I still believe it is.  However the way this club is currently playing is closer to the D League playoffs than anything else.  And now with a daunting foe tonight in Atlanta, then back-to-backs against a Wizards team they just lost to and a solid defensive club in the Bulls, both on the road, it's not inconceivable that we're talking a 7 and 15 record by the time next week rolls around.

So what does this team need to do to get back on track?

Some of the media post-game asked about making changes to the starting line-up, to which Jay replied, "did you see any problems with our starters tonight?...we were fine in the first and third quarters this evening..."

Some asked about tactical changes on the second day of back-to-backs.

I say throw it all out the window.

This isn't on Jay.

Perhaps a few tweaks on his end would have won an extra game or two but the reality here is that he can't make Andrea do a better job defensively.  And he can't ensure that Hedo takes good shots in the flow of the game.  Sure, he can try to harp on those points, but the players playing the game are the ones who have to execute on his demands.

And this is my major problem; the players just aren't doing this right now and I'm not sure if they can.

I've been extremely critical of most of the players on this roster for a while now and last night's game did little to sway my belief that Bryan Colangelo holds most of these guys in too high a regard.  Everyone knows my take on Andrea, and even on DeMar DeRozan, but the real Bulls-eye for me is Hedo Turkoglu.  BC is paying Turk approximately $55 Million over the next five years to be a clutch player down the stretch for Toronto in close games.  The ROI so far on that investment?  Not good, and last night was Exhibit A.  Sure Hedo filled the box score, but he failed to make a single key play when it counted most; from grabbing a rebound in traffic to scoring with the game clock winding down...

...unless of course you count his buzzer-beater which thankfully secured pizza for a season low 15,766 ACC faithful.

Let's stick with Hedo for a minute, because I believe he's at the root of this team's current problems.  It blew my mind from day one that the Raptors were so keen on signing him.  Statistically Turk had been in a regression, he's hardly a "spring chicken," and while he can create for others and is a multi-skilled individual, he's a sub-par defender (and that might be generous) and shooter, and not the aggressive "basket attacker" I always felt the Raps really needed to complement Jose.

I would have preferred the Raptors held onto Shawn Marion, and I even went so far as to say that Hedo was barely an upgrade over Carlos Delfino.

"But Franchise, what about his vaunted playoff run last year?  Has he really fallen so far from that?"

My answer would be no he hasn't.

I really believed that both fans and management were victims of the Magic's televised playoff run, one that helped shape this "greater than life" image of Turkoglu, and helped to reinforce this perception of him as a clutch player.  The reality was that statistically, his playoff numbers were worse than his regular season ones, and in terms of "clutch" ability, according to 82games.com, he was actually a sub-par "clutch player," with both Chris Bosh and Anthony Parker having better numbers last year in this regard.

However seeing Hedo hit some game-winners and clutch shots on prime time seemed to sway the general public's opinon of Mr. Turk, and suddenly he was being hailed as a huge off-season coup.

What about Courtney Lee in New Jersey?

Wasn't his acquisition in the Vince Carter trade with Orlando viewed as a big source of relief for all 10 Nets' fans?  I bring this up in comparison to Hedo because after all, wasn't the playoffs his big break-out as well?  Didn't he seem destined to be at the very least, a very solid starter in this league?

Perhaps...however ask yourself how Lee's fared this year.

In fact, has anyone even heard anything about Lee?  Sure he plays in the netherlands of New Jersey and has been injured, but for a player viewed as a key piece for the Nets to get back in the Carter deal, shouldn't we be hearing more about him?

My answer to this query would be, "no, not if he's not playing well."

And that would be the correct answer Alex.

I looked at Lee's PER to date and granted, it's a small sample size due to injury, but currently Lee is 199th in the league at 12.25.  The league average is about 15.  And our buddy Hedo is barely above that!  His PER sits at 13.81.  Contrast that with Shawn Marion who sits at 16.24.

Granted PER isn't the silver bullet in terms of proving that one player is necessarily better, or playing at a higher level than another, but it's not something you can completely discount as a performance measurement tool.  The stats don't lie, both Lee and Hedo have underachieved relative to the perception of fans and management regarding what each player was bringing to the table. 

(Sidebar - Lee isn't even the go-to wing on the Nets...to my chagrin it's Chris Douglas-Roberts, a player I openly begged Bryan Colangelo to take a flyer on when he inexplicably fell into the second round of the draft the year before last.  Nope, apparently the Raps were fine with Nathan Jawai later on.)

And Hedo is certainly not alone in this respect.

Outside of Chris Bosh, Amir Johnson and maybe Marco Belinelli or Sonny Weems, it's hard to argue that every other player on this Raptors' roster hasn't underperformed.

And what scares me is this is at least the second (arguably the third) season under Colangelo's management where this has been the case.  BC's perception of player value has simply not become reality most of the time and the results can be seen on the court night in and night out.  Post-game Jay looked a tad too much like Sam Mitchell, standing at the podium, realizing that he had no answers for the media because he's stuck with these players; players who've been built up by management as the solution when he knows deep down that they're part of the problem.  I'd love to put Triano on a truth serum because I'm sure he'd vote to move half of these guys, even for lessor talented ones willing to do the dirty work.

Last night's match was one decided by "dirty work," a key rebound here, a made 3 there, a stop here...and Toronto was unable to get the job done.  In fact I thought it spoke volumes that Earl Boykins and Brendan Haywood were key players for the Wizards in the win; the two perhaps least talented yet grittiest options for Washington.  Toronto just didn't have enough of that.

So can we as fans chalk tonight's match up as an automatic L?  I've already said this team isn't as good as most people thought and now tonight they have to play an Atlanta team on the road on the second night of a back-to-back that is better than everyone thought!  Can we pencil in a 7 and 13 record?

Unfortunately I think so.

Until this Raptors' club starts showing some consistency, even in terms of the amount of fight brought to each game, it's hard to see many W's in the future.  However if a miracle were to happen tonight and Toronto were to steal a match, here would be my three keys to getting it done:

1)  Get Aggressive in the paint.

The Hawks are one of the best rebounding, shot-blocking and interior teams in the league.  Al Horford clogs the lane while Josh Smith roams from just outside, looking to reject any shot that enters his zone.  Add in the ruggedness of Zaza Pachulia, and smooth veteran savvy of Joe Smith, and Atlanta has a nice interior mix.  However they haven't been consistent in this regard.  Earlier this week, Ben Wallace essentially out-rebounded the entire Atlanta team himself en route to a Pistons win.  Not only does Toronto need a big game as usual from CB4, but guys like Andrea Bargnani and Amir Johnson need to dig in as well and fight the Hawks tooth and nail in this regard.

2)  Force the Hawks to the rim.

Atlanta is a very balanced team.  They're not far behind the Raptors in terms of offensive metrics, and are one of the better defensive teams as well.  There's simply not one glaring area to look at and ask the Raps to exploit.  However this isn't a team that gets to the free-throw line very often.  The Hawks rank 22nd in the league in this department, doing most of their scoring damage from afar; either off of 3-pointers or mid-range jump shots.  Players like Marvin Williams and Jamal Crawford excel in this capacity so tonight, instead of Toronto's usual defensive MO, I'm hoping Jay Triano instructs his troops to stick close on the perimeter, giving up the drive if necessary but ensuring that Toronto's bigs know this and are ready to help funnel attackers in this fashion.  To win this game guys like Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby just can't be allowed to drain open 3 after open 3.  I'm not suggesting a parade to the foul line either but to have a shot at a win tonight, Toronto needs to force the Hawks to put the ball on the deck.

3)  Get production from the bench.

Last night again was a struggle for Marco Belinelli and Antoine Wright.  While Jarrett Jack did a good job offensively, and Amir Johnson was his usual pogo-stick self, it's the former two that need to start stepping up if TO wants to hang around in games despite its porous defence.  Against a Hawks team that is ninth in the league in scoring, and a fraction behind Toronto in terms of offensive efficiency rating, this is especially true.  The Raps are going to need all hands on deck in this one - from starting five to perhaps even guys like Sonny Weems and Rasho Nesterovic.

 

We'll be live-blogging the affair as usual however we may be directing folks to SB Nation's Atlanta Hawks blog, Peachtree Hoops, to start this one as it sounds like some of us will be late to the party this evening.

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Sad But True

I am sure there are plenty of people who predicted a 50 + win team that are disappointed but the Raps are still ahead of my schedule (I believe I predicted a 5-14 November) so I am still in the happy box (okay I am being a little facetious here). I jumped off the BC bandwagon 2 years ago so this team is hardly shocking to me. The real issue is, what is the solution. At the beginning of the year I predicted that trading Bosh might be the cure to the problem in Toronto (it still might be) but I am less sure of that now as Turk has been even worse then I thought he would be. Jack hasn’t been as good as some people thought but at the price Toronto got him at he has met my expectations so far (you cannot argue that he has been better than the crap rolled out last year). It would be nice if he were better but what are you going to do. The real issue here is a line of bad decisions and bad luck that all lead back to BC. It was his decision to sit back and let CDR go to NJ one pick in front (really, you will trade a future 1st rounder to dump Oneal but you won’t trade a future second rounder to get a solid 2 guard?). It was his decision to draft a project in DD instead of a backup PG (I won’t name the number of PGs drafted after 9 who are better players already then DD is). It was his decision to sign Turk. Yes he stole Johnson from the Bucks (who filled his spot with someone they liked more) but if you look back at his record, he has made more bad moves than good and you have wonder how much the first season was a fluke (a bad one as it cost us a draft pick)?

by McGateway on Dec 2, 2009 8:59 AM EST reply actions  

Completely agree

I know you’ve been saying it for a while on the site too McGateway.

Unfortunately unless DeMar takes a giant step forward next year or later this season, where is the improvement goign to come from? This is pretty much the squad for the next few seasons and if Bosh leaves, then it REALLY gets ugly…

by Adam Francis on Dec 2, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Not necessarily Denver got better unloading what at the time was their 1a player

It would depend upon what comes our way and something will given the fact the S&T gives the other team the possibility to pay part of the money by unloading another player. I must say however that Bosh stock around the league is not as high as some people here believe. He has been described as an average defender and his pick list at the moment is 4 or 5 (at the very least, behind Lebron Dwade and Amare). I find it funny he is behind Amare (and the justification to that would be Bosh being a poor defender) given the fact Amare has a reputation to be terrible at it.

by renato on Dec 2, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

This is especially retarded when you consider that Bosh’s numbers are better on a crappier team and he doesn’t have a hall of fame (ok Nash may make the hall of fame) PG feeding him the ball. Take a look.

Amar’e Stoudemire -(Pho – PF,C)
         Min GP FGA FGM FTA FTM TPM PTS/G ORB TRB Ast ST BL TO
        33:43 18 12.4 7.3 6.6 4.9 0.0 19.4 2.0 6.8 1.1 0.6 1.2 2.9
FG% – .585 FT% – .746
Chris Bosh (Tor – PF,C)
36:03 19 17.4 8.4 10.7 8.2 0.3 25.2 3.7 12.3 1.6 0.5 1.1 1.9
FG % – .494 FT% .760 (Down a bit)
As you Can see, other than in FG% Bosh is kicking Stoudemire’s ass in almost every single stat category that matters. The reality is that Bosh’s stock is hurt not by his defense but by him playing in Canada. Sux but its true.
You have to be an insider to get the PER numbers so if someone can post those that would be super swell.

by McGateway on Dec 2, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

My Dad and I watched last night game...

For the first time this season since he went on vacation and just got back sunday.
He didn’t like the team overall, he said that last year team was better ( when we had marion and Bargnani on fire) it doesn’t have that fast pacing that it had last year!

all in all we need something that will get thiese guys fired up and quick!

by elpikiman on Dec 2, 2009 9:38 AM EST reply actions  

Few things I noticed

I caught most of the second half at a pub while hanging out with my friends. Needless to say I was less than focued on the game. However, what I did notice between beers and conversation was this…
-Bosh getting blocked twice in the low post in the last six minutes.
-Bosh getting stripped of the ball in the low post while holding onto the ball too long.
-Calderone dribbling like he was playing a game of keep away and thus eating up the shot clock several times in the last six minutes.
-Hedo forcing up low percentage shots.

On the bright side I did notice a couple of decent stops in the last half of the fourth quarter. I think if we had actually moved the ball a bit and found the open man (instead of feeding it to Bosh who was being double teamed) we might have actually taken this one.

by Posterized on Dec 2, 2009 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

Haywood absolutely owned Bosh last night. Outside of that little 18-point burst in the first half, Haywood was forcing Bosh to take low percentage jumpers or give up the ball in frustration. When he did get it inside at the end of the game, he got it sent back. Just a poor performance (but hey, the box score looks good!).

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm starting to think...

That that is all Bosh is worried about, is padding his stats. He seems a little too OK with this loosing streak we are on.

by Posterized on Dec 2, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I have been thinking that for some time

a lot of poor shot selections. but as our great announcers will point out again and again
and again He leads the league in this and that! Tthe raptors are only X games out of 5th place! It means so much when they constantly give up 53 plus points every half. 35-37 wins is all I see this team getting. Can they make playoffs in the east with that?

by Davl on Dec 2, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

So sick of the sell job by Devlin and Leo – that’s why it was great to hear Jack post-game rip into them a bit and why I lead off the post with the quote.

by Adam Francis on Dec 2, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately ...

yes the Raps can limp into to play offs with that record in the East.

I was at the game, in great seats mind you, and I was impressed in the first half but the raps had a problem closing out the game in the last few minutes. The raps need to get that done and find out how to do it in a hurry or the season could begin to spiral out of control.

PS, Hedo taking those outside jumpers late may not have been the best idea since he made very few of them in the game. All I could think off when he missed his shots, that he made as the clutch guy in Orlando, was how much each shot cost the team dollar wise.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on Dec 2, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure that’s a concern a lot of people have (that Bosh is pulling the “good stats on a bad team”). But I think once he leaves — and make no mistake, at this point he is as good as gone — it’s going to be shades of Pau Gasol leaving Memphis to join the Lakers.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you mean we are going to give him away for free?

Just keep i mind he is not a victim of this (so far) disaster, but a protagonist. Since you mentioned GasoL, do you feel Gasol dedense and Chris’ belong to the same league?

by renato on Dec 2, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Gasol was perceived as a soft player before being dealt to the Lakers. I see a lot of similarities.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Or to a lesser extent KG going the Boston and playing with actually good teammates who have hart and know how to compete.

by staylor on Dec 2, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Swap Chris and Bosh

do you think the rest of the team would be in the same position? that should also answer to whether Bosh is a Max player

by renato on Dec 2, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Bosh had an absolutely horrible 4th quarter

You’ve got to love the effort that Bosh is bringing and I give him full credit for that, but my argument against giving Bosh max money has always been, when the game is on the line and you need a bucket or you need a stop, can Bosh deliver that bucket/stop. And the answer remains no.

The way Bargnani was rolling, I would have preferred they went to him in the fourth quarter. This team desperately needs a closer.

This team also needs offensive production from the two spot. I’ll cut DeRozan some slack for now because he’s only a rookie and EXTREMELY raw, Colangelo’s in trouble if DeRozan doesn’t improve.

by CalexanderJ on Dec 2, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

But here’s the deal… At what point do the Raptors start playing who they believe will get the job done for any particular game rather than playing players that they know need to develop either individually or as a group (chemistry). There has to be a rapidly approaching breaking point I think. It will be interesting to see what decisions are made.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 2, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a bit crazy....

But if I were Jay and the coaching staff right now, I would be playing the players who are showing more effort more minutes as oppose to being stuck in rotations with who’s a starters, role player, etc… I’m in favour of bring out a line up of Jack, Seems, Wright, Evans (when he comes back), and Johnson to play some minutes together and see what I consider a more grittier/aggressive line up then what Jay has been using. Something has to change because whatever is being done now isn’t working.

by 6264 on Dec 2, 2009 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not sure

That starting line would really be all that productive as Jack would really be the only offensive minded person on the court. However, I am all for some of those guys getting more playing time. I would be all for moving at least some of those players to the starting line up. Right now we have too much offense in our starting five and too much “grit” in our second unit.

by Posterized on Dec 2, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the memories

Goodbye Chris, thanks for the memories. All the best.

by Oldskewl on Dec 2, 2009 12:22 PM EST reply actions  

In every interview, you can just see Bosh saying, “see ya”

by CalexanderJ on Dec 3, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

What is the deal with the media?

Post-game Triano is there with the media posing questions (looking and sounding confused and bewildered) and the media, pathetically, doesn’t ask one question – i.e. what are you going to do about the fact that this team is last in the NBA in terms of defense (and close to last in almost every defensive category) – instead the media plays along with the nonsensical game of pretending its about a couple of missed baskets here or some other nonsense.

C’mon guys – get a backbone – for God’s sakes – ask the tough questions. What are you the coaches going to do about the worst defense in the NBA? Does the fact that you have the worst defense in the NBA bother you given you were preaching defense above all in training camp. Hey coach, do you honestly think the Raptors have the worst defensive players in the NBA or, wait, maybe YOU have some responsibility…it’s absolutely pathetic to watch the media too scared to ask about the real issues…

Are you going to just take this Triano nonsense that “few tweaks” is all it’s going to take.

I’ve never seen any heads-in-the-sand more than with this team and the media that follows it.

First thing you’ve got to do is acknowledge the problem coach – if you can’t do that – you should be out.

by teamd on Dec 2, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions  

As much as the coaches are to blame...

and they are, the players need to take some responsibilty as well. I see a lot of half assed effort on the court in regards to defense. Our system may be flawed, but our players are just as flawed. Let’s not hang Triano out to dry before we’ve seen what he has to offer.

by Posterized on Dec 2, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The team might be better WITHOUT Bosh

As I mentioned last night, the team concedes too much to Bosh and Bosh, because he has been anointed the face of the franchise, takes it upon himself to live up to that label. There are two possible outcomes if Bosh leaves,

1. The players being better than they have shown themselves to be thus far, given the Bosh focused hierarchy will play better as a TEAM, actually perform better in roles suited to their skills I could see DeMar taking off with MORE responsibility placed on him, instead of the role he is being asked to play now. Jose might actually PASS THE BALL TO ANDREA, and you know what, Amir, given that he is younger than Bosh, could be a nice complementary player that suits the other starters better. On a team of equals I think this could work but it’s not set up that way currently with CB4 around.

2. Things get uglier next year and we have to start all over again.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 2, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions  

You think this is bad?

Wait for this team minus Bosh, with the majority of its cap space devoted to Bargnani, Turkoglu and Calderon. Have you seen the Nets play lately?

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope, but I've seen the Rockets play

And I think the parts here could achieve something similar. The first step to being a good team is being a hard team to beat, night in and night out. Right now, the book on the Raptors is that you can get to them psychologically and they might concede and make the rest of the night easier for you. My sister made the comment that teams come in knowing the Raptors have a reputation as a bad defensive team, so even the bench players are looking forward to getting some numbers up. Success is visualized against the Raps before the game even starts. A lot of the better teams in the league win many games BEFORE tip off.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 2, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Raptors aren't even close to the Rockets

The Rockets are comprised of a lot of guys who — while they aren’t necessarily household names — are advanced stats darlings. Guys like Scola, Hayes, Battier, Budinger, etc.

The Raptors probably have two guys that fall into that category: Bosh and Amir Johnson.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Good coaching could have this team at 11 and 8 instead of the reverse.

I couldn’t disagree more with the general sentiment that Triano’s doing a great job and the players are the wrong players.

BC put together a very good group using the tools he had available. This team is fourth in the NBA in terms of scoring and has won every game where it has kept the opponent under 100 points. So Turkoglu had a bad game…big deal. The defense has been bad EVERY game except the first game against Cleveland.

Unfortunately BC doesn’t seem to have good judgement with coaches. Giving Mitchell a contract was crazy, and then Triano too – who has never demonstrated an ability to win consistently at any level he’s coached. A nice guy, sure, but results?

by teamd on Dec 2, 2009 12:31 PM EST reply actions  

sorry teamd, I know we had it out on your fanshot, but I’d really like you to find me anyone on the planet that predicted 11&8.

by Ustation on Dec 2, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

i do have an idea for defence though… two words.. “roller” “skates”! bling

by Ustation on Dec 2, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Extreme sure - just making the point

Ya, ya. Fair enough…it’s a stretch.

But I really don’t think the players are as a bad a group, OR as bad defensively as a lot of people are saying.

Most players put in serious effort day in and day out, they’re not lazy, they try hard and work their asses off. There are exceptions, sure, but not that many.

So it’s either effort or skill or system/coaching. I don’t think it’s effort – I don’t think lazy players can put up those kinds of numbers offensively – I also don’t think these players all come to Raptors and suddenly get lazy. I also don’t think it’s skill (okay nobody say Calderon) Why? Because these guys have shown they can play good D that works (e.g. first game against Cavaliers). So what does that leave….

As for the numbers – with the offensive stats these guys have been putting up – if you go game by game – with a little good D – there are suddenly a lot of wins that would have possible. You take the blown leads alone…

by teamd on Dec 2, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

???

I’m not sure where you are seing this “serious effort” on D. Just because they put all kinds of effort into scoring doesn’t automatically qualify their effort on D. Outside the the mirage that was the Cleveland game, I have yet to see a signle game in which total team effort on D was strong. And I would go so far as to say that Cleveland lost that game more than we won it.

by Posterized on Dec 2, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Coaching

Not sure about 11-8, but I do think something’s not right in the coaching department. Not sure if it’s Triano himself or orders from BC, but the lineups and PT just don’t make sense. Why can’t DD develop off the bench? Why don’t the hard workers get rewarded with minutes? Why do we always have to have at least two of our starters on at all times (which has to mess with chemistry of first and second units both)? Why the bizarre JJ & JC experiment that won’t end?

Why not a starting lineup of Jack, Belz, Johnson, Bosh and Bargs; backed up a needed by Calderon, DeRozan/Wright, Turk, Pops, and Rasho?

The choices have just been poor.

by benjibopper on Dec 2, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

the best lineup by far has been beli playing in place of DD

by tfulks23 on Dec 2, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Waiting on Thibodeau

I think you’re right. Also I think this team would really benefit from a head coach with a defensive reputation/proven defensive schemes, since the offense is natural aspect to many of these player’s games.

I mean Triano has had a full season’s worth to move this team in the right direction, unless the thought is his progress will be similar to that of Mike Woodson’s in Atlanta, why isn’t he being criticized more for the on the court results.

The players are different, the feeling of inevitable under performance and disappointment is the same.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 2, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions  

Thib’s will not go to a team without some legit stars. I think his years in New York had scarred him. The Kings job was all his this year.

by Ustation on Dec 2, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Chris bosh

WOW i can’t believe you never alluded to the fact that bosh was non existent in the second half ..this guy is supposed to be the franchise but time and time again he gets out played by other franchise guy’s..It’s great he has been more aggressive and has been getting to the line but who cares if those foul shots are in the second quarter..last nights loss goes on bosh.

by tfulks23 on Dec 2, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

Bosh

If he doesn’t make those foul shots in the second quarter the games not close anyway. And here’s novel concept …How about having teammates that can pick up the slack when he’s having an off night.

by staylor on Dec 2, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Picking up the slack

Calderon with 20 points & Jack with 18 were picking up the slack, at the beginning and end when Bosh and Turkuglu were struggling to score.

by Johnn19 on Dec 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

What about blocking out, rebounding down the stretch…why only mentioning pts scored? Bargs had 11 rebound no big ones at crunch time. He only gets rebound that basically fall into his lap.

by staylor on Dec 2, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Haywood had a massive effect on Bosh last night, with CB4 resorting to jumpers instead of attacking the basket. And when he did attack, he got his shot sent back or altered.

The scoring burst in the 1st half made it look like he had a decent game from a box score perspective.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say that even though he showed a good game against phoenix in the box score, a lot of his decision making was questionable in the second half.

In fact, a lot of decision making with just about everyone has been questionable in the second halves.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 2, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting comments about Andrea from the (now former) Italian NT

Andrea would have the talent (allowing him) to have that kind of freedom (on the court) that let you have a leadership recognized by his team mates. The next step for Andrea is to stop auto limiting himself in doing just what he is asked to by the coach. If he wants to become a great player he has to learn to enter the court and make plays, independently from the team he is on the field with (surrounding him), and beyond what he is asked (by the coach).

by renato on Dec 2, 2009 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

Andrea is still a follower, on the Raptors. Don’t know if he has it in him to be a leader.
Maybe as he grows, in experience, and confidence, especially if Bosh leaves, we will find out.

by Johnn19 on Dec 2, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Why did Rap's lose ???

4th quarter
Jamison & Arenas scored 22 pts combined of 34
Bosh & Turkoglu scored 6 points on 2/13 shooting

Nothing else matters, when your 2 best players are so outplayed
by your opponents 2 best, you do not win !!!

by Johnn19 on Dec 2, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

Turk is not one of our two best players.

by benjibopper on Dec 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a radical idea.

What if we moved Turk to the bench and started Bellinelli (moving DD over to SF). I realise that would be putting up the white flag on the season but maybe Turk would get motivated to play himself back into the starting lineup.

by McGateway on Dec 2, 2009 4:40 PM EST reply actions  

Might be viable, IF Doug Smith didn’t just report that it’d be an impossibility right now. (check his blog today). I’d like to see some more tinkering with lineups right now. Things aren’t good and the Raptors have a couple other players.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 2, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's another radical idea

If Turk really is a problem and doesn’t project to really add much to the Raptor’s situation, find a team that’ seems just a little less than it should be at the moment (Portland) and move pieces from the Raps that might help them (Turk & Calderon). See how far the team gets with younger pieces and a better cap situation.

Yes, it’s crazy. Yes, it might be too soon for something so “radical”, (I call it proactive) but honestly, the horse died a long time ago. The beatings have to stop. This is a treadmill team if I ever did see one.

by HQ Interloper on Dec 2, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe the Raptors should shop outside the bargain basement for a head coach. Raptors have a great roster. I hate the guy but Van Gundy would either have this roster winning games or he and they would be killing each other and themselves. The team looks like they are asleep on the floor – I have not seen them play 4 quarters of basketball in any game this year…and Jay smilin’ and patting the guys on the butt. With all the talent this team has why doesn’t anyone but Bosh drive to the hoop? No one even passes into the paint. I swear when the Raptors are throwing games away I have read Jay’s lips in the crunch time timeouts…"Okay guys, it’s not whether you win or lose – have some fun out there." Smile, smile, pat-a-butt, pat-a-butt.

by firejaytriano on Dec 2, 2009 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

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