Tip-In: Toronto Raptors Post Game Report - What Now?
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 17, 2009 8:36 AM EST
53 comments
The Raptors were in the Magic Kingdon last night but there was nothing magical in how they played.
Another blow-out loss for the Raps leaves Howland grasping at straws.
Oh my.
It's getting pretty tough to watch at this point.
In fact talking about the lack of effort, the bad defense and the constant mental errors is getting tiring. There is actually very little to talk about after the 118-99 loss to the Orlando that everyone has not read and talked about before.
Last night was no different than many other nights this season. You have heard this story before:
- The Raps allowed their opponent to score over 100 points.
- The effort just wasn't good enough and when the team fell behind they showed no fight.
- The Raps were dominated in almost every facet of the game and allowed their opponent to shoot well over 50% from the field.
- The result was another lopsided Raptors loss.
After last night I am left wondering whether anything is actually changing. Sure there has been a lot of talk but there has been nothing to back up the spoken word.
We are now close to 30 games into the season and I can honestly say I have seen no improvement since the first pre-season game at the John Labatt Centre in London Ontario.
That was more than two and a half months ago.
The question that has to be asked is when, if ever, will things change?
My guess is that things are not going to change with the status quo and I don't think we are far from the point where BC has to acknowledge this. How many more blow-out losses are required before something has to give?
RIght now the Raps have to be turning into the laughing stock of the league. There are few teams who can make Anthony Johnson look like he's 25 again and right now the opponents starters know that they will likely spend the fourth quarter chilling on the bench with a comfortable lead.
The problem is I just don't see many options for BC. He can't fire Triano as there is no chance that MLSE will pay THREE coaches at one time, the market for Turkoglu is going to be limited give his age, contract and production (who knew?!), and trading arguably the best young PF in the league would be a tough pill to swallow.
I don't envy the position the Legomaster has put himself in. He has collected some pretty poor pieces that just don't add up to much. Soon the spotlight is going to shine squarely on Colangelo and he will have to answer for the bind he has put this franchise in.
It's not that this team doesn't have talent. There is talent on this team. The biggest issue is that they are not working as a unit and they are not playing for each other. That is bad, but it gets worse. There is nothing to point to that would suggest the team is about to "turn the corner".
Just how bad were things last night? Well as pointed out in the Game Day Thread Marcin Gortat had 7 rebounds which would have be a team high for the Raptors last night and he only played 10 minutes. That's pathetic and a damning statement for Mr. Bargnani and Mr. Bosh.
The most disappointing performance last night however, was that of Mr. Turkoglu. On a night when he was matched up against his old mates in Orlando you would have thought he would come out with some serious energy. Not so. Once again Turk was underwhelming. What was telling was that the Orlando fans seemed to greet him with a laissez-faire attitude. He has been easily replaced and forgotten.
To be honest, right now might be the lowest I have ever felt about this team. Rather than being a pleasure to come home and watch a game it is starting to feel like a chore. It's just not that fun to see these guys get trampled and do nothing to stop it. It's disheatening. At least when we went through the dark ages (after Vince was traded) guys showed some fight.
The only positive for the Raps right now is that they face the New Jersey Nets on Friday. Not only is that the most winnable game in the league right now but I get to see Terrence Williams.
I have to ask though, what happens if they lose that game?
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if we get beat by the Nets ?
Thats a real possibility !!!
I would jump on the lets get “John” now !!!
The Heat tanked years ago….and got Beezley its now our turn to tank !!!! we may not have to try too hard.
I’m a fan of trying to get a higher pick depending on a team’s situation but this is BY FAR the earliest into a Raptors’ season I’ve felt this way.
Speaks volumes about the state of affairs.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with the draft is
We don’t draft well.
Let’s look at our record,
04 drafted Rafael Araújo, could have drafted Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin
05 drafted Charlie V, could have drafted Andrew Bynum, Danny Granger
06 drafted Andrea Bargnani could have drafted Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, lamarcus ald.
07 drafted we didn’t have a draft pick, but in the second round there was Marc Gasol, and carl landry
08 drafted Nathan Jawai could have drafted Goarn Drajic
09 drafted demar derozan could have drafted brandon jennings
My point is that year after year as a franchise we have shown that we pass up on good players that you can build a core on. For us the draft is not a is place where we can acquire talent well because we as a team are horrible at drafting. I think that the people to blame are the scouting staff and the GM. Yes, you could argue, now wait a minute if we had those players then our teams total number of won games would have gone up considerably and we probable would be out of the lottery the first year. What you need to recognize is that
Al Jefferson, Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Andrew Bynum, and Marc Gasol were all brought along slowly for their teams. Remember Al Jefferson was part of the Boston Celtics team that tanked and had one of the lowest records in that year.
Anyway, my point is that this Toronto Raptors team is not good in the drafts. So, we try to catch lightning in a bottle. But it’s hard to create a team in one year to build a championship. And each year we are mediocre year after year after year. If you look at our record over 15 years I bet the average place that you will find us is around the middle of the Eastern Conference. Fans are sold from the marketing side of the game. But, I’m not sold anymore. The Raptors team just sucks.
Great point
When you look back at the draft history vs. where the team is at today, you realize that they only needed to come away with a couple of those players you mentioned. Then you’re looking at a core of talented guys that you can surround with the role players necessary to contend for a playoff spot.
This team literally has to be broken down to the ground floor again and built in a way that wil sustain success over a longer period of time (think of organizations like the Spurs or Trail Blazers).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 17, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
BARGS BUST!
We missed you!
Especially since most of the site’s been particularly rough on Bargs lately…
And I agree – in the post Grunwald era the Raps have been pretty horrid in the draft which as a college nut and draft junkie, REALLY gets frustrating.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, it’s turning into a chore to watch these games for sure. at least back in the mike james days, they would lose but somehow make it interesting. at least you could count on a good game with some effort from below average players making the most of their situations. this team? possibly the most talented raps team I’ve seen that simply plays like crap. hard to watch, for sure. and like you pointed out: the worst part is that there really aren’t very many options to fix it. we’re just going to have to ride this one out. ugh.
Lottery
I too am getting tired of watching this team play, cause like you said, its the same thing every night…when i got home from work last night, turned on the game…and wouldnt you know it..its the 3rd quarter and our beloeved raps are down by 17…seems to be the norm these days…I am almost hoping for a loss on friday just so the wheels actually come off instead of just dangling from the axel
Too early to get a John Wall jersey??
I can't even start....
to think about John Wall. The problem is (like every year it seems) the Raps are not good enough to do anything but scrape into the playoffs and not bad enough to have a real shot at the first pick.
Could they at least be good at something?
John Wall – Just amazing.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 17, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
On the bright side...
… this Raptor team is great for my work life. If I see them down by more than 10 at any point after halftime, I know they’re not going to come back so I can just go to bed early. Right now I’m hoping BC has some secret plan to tank the season and Bosh is in on it so he’ll re-sign.
I am really not surprised by the results this team is posting. Sure they suck but BC has continuously tried to catch lightning in a bottle and failed miserably every time. True he cannot control chemistry issues but he can certainly see what is happening here and he needs to make a strong statement that change will come. He could start by “suggesting” to Jay that he give the bench guys some run for a few games. How long do you think Hedo and Bargnani will sit there before the message is made clear to them? Then again, maybe neither cares enough. The Raptors are run exactly the same as the Leafs so I am not sure why anyone is disappointed in their season. You cannot constantly rebuild through trade and expect to get anywhere. This team needs to start from scratch but the problem is that you risk alienating a much smaller fan base by doing it. So get used to these kind of teams folks as this is your Raptor future.
Great call on the “lighting in a bottle” analogy. I listened to the Fan590 last night post game and almost every caller was alluding to that (and calling for BC’s head.) Very interesting turn of events.
So get used to these kind of teams folks as this is your Raptor future.
Think that’s something some of us at the site have been saying for a while now. BC needs to check his ego and move some of the core problems on this roster. For me, that would start with a player that’s 7 feet tall and grabs about 5 rebounds a night in 30 minutes as a “starting center.”
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Umm..why not the injured point guard
I can just see it..Bargnani is moved, the other team puts him at power forward and he excels as a primary option with game changing skills. We lose Bosh anyway, and have to start our rebuilding process with an aging Jose & Turkoglu and an uncertain DeRozan.
The approach to developing their Number 1 overall pick was a recipe for disaster. If he had simply been given the opportunity to make his mistakes in year 1, we wouldn’t be proposing that he be dealt now. He would be established and almost fully realized. Now, it’s a holding pattern. DeRozan could be wasted in a similar fashion. Play the guy 40 minutes a night and let him make his mistakes. This team as is, is not playing that well.
If financials are an issue:
1. Fire Jay Triano, Alex English, and Iavaroni
2. Install Micah Nori as the interim head, with Alvin Williams and the player development coach as his lead assistants and go with an all out youth movement. Move Bosh, Move Turkoglu to any team that might need him to make that push and move Calderon (Portland).
Every year of late we’ve been coming to a point of asking the team to start from scratch. We’re here again. Hopefully this time, it happens.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 17, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
BargsBust is right on the money..
See Franchise, this is why I said not last year, but the year before I said that Bargs was a) a bad draft pick, and b) a waste of a player to build around as a core piece to the team. Although his rebounding numbers have gotten better over the years he’s still too soft and the better centers in the league will run right over him.
welcome back from the dead
and you added talking about you in third person… classy :))
For the record, both Howland and I were against drafting Andrea, and never thought he’d fit with Bosh.
However my choice that year was Tyrus Thomas…not exactly Roy or Gay.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
And mine...
was aldridge
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 17, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I thought if they were going to go the “twin towers” route, Aldridge was the choice. Roy and Gay were riskier with the first overall pick.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 17, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Another for Aldridge and pondering Bargs fate.
If we didn’t have Bosh, I would’ve drafted Tyrus Thomas in the hopes that he did a little ben wallace impression for us. Too bad he turned out to be a knucklehead, although the signs were there during the pre-draft ramp up period and that awkward interview with Draftexpress. Someone with that level of defensiveness in response to simple pre-draft questioning, well how will they hold up to a coach calling them out during a 4th quarter time out.
I figured a bet on Aldridge, even if he was similar to Bosh was worth it. Let him develop as first big man off the bench, and if you end up with Bosh-lite, that’s a good problem to have.
With Bargnani the question in my mind was, exactly how much change can you BANK on from a fellow that’s played like a 7foot sg for most of his career. Expecting him to turn into a prototypical bigman, even in terms of mindset, was a gamble that’s not worth taking that early in any draft. And make no mistake, if your sharing the court with Chris Bosh, you need to be capable of doing the heavy lifting in terms of defending the stronger opposition big. Even if Bosh could do that, you wouldn’t want him wasting too much energy and risking foul trouble. The fact Bargnani has evolved this much in terms of his physique is astounding, and credit to him for using his offseason productively. I would be singing a different tune if we had a kendrick perkins or tyson chandler already. Ok then, drafting him as a offense first bigman is somewhat defensible. I would see where you were going with that. And if the expectation was that he would never change…that your frontcourt would always be one made midrange shot ahead of pesky things like rebounding and toughness. That’s like the shoot-first pg, in that its an basketball archetype that doesn’t lead to sustainable success.
After LA, I thought that Rudy Gay was the way to go. He had the tools and the size at SF that would be useful against SF. And he supposedly was commited to defense. Brandon Roy was never on my radar. Seeing Anthony parker cited on the draftexpress best case made me say forget that, I’ve get the genuine article right here!
Andrea is not the starting center on this team
So can we please stop with the revisionist history. Chris Bosh is the Center on this team and the game plan from the beginning of the year was for Bosh to be the defensive anchor for this team, hence his high rebound rate. If Andrea was playing the role of Center he would be averaging 7-8 rebounds so please enough of the complaining about rebounds. As well he was not, I REPEAT was NOT GUARDING Howard all game (which personally i think was stupid). He was stuck guarding Lewis all game out at the 3 point line. Why Jay decided this tactic is beyond me, he essentially put the team in mismatches that worked to the benefit of the Magic, same thing with the Heat.
So the question is why did Jay make Bosh the Defensive Anchor (Center) for this team? I don’t know? Last year when Andrea played Center we were something like 21st in defensive ratings, this year with Bosh as the Center we have the worst defensive rating than any other team in the history of the NBA – could we really be worst with Andrea a playing the center position?
utes
Raptors are on notice. I can’t even watch a full game anymore. I used to watch every minute – even during the Mike James era, but lately I’m tuning out. I feel like I want my money back and I haven’t paid for anything except 4$ a month. Maybe I’ll cancel RaptorsTV to prove a point.
That made me laugh out loud – if it wasn’t for the ability to watch OTHER teams on Raps TV I’d do the same.
(For instance, I stayed up to watch Tyreke Evans and Sacto last night because they play like a REAL team. Yes, Sacto that won about 2 games last season.)
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
The only thing that makes sense
Dealing Bosh to Golden State for Anthony Randolph and Andris Biedrins — which is the only deal where you’re going to get anything resembling a younger version of CB4. Otherwise, you’re waiting until the offseason when Bosh has a gun to your head, and you’re forced to take back a Beasley from Miami or whatever (and you thought the Bosh-Bargnani frontcourt was bad defensively?).
Try to deal as much of this roster as possible, outside of maybe Amir Johnson. Tank the season and make a run at the first overall pick (John Wall). And then build around Biedrins, Randolph and Wall going forward.
No matter what happens, we’re stuck with that albatross of a contract in Hedo Turkoglu. That was just stupidity.
This current team is a joke.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 17, 2009 10:42 AM EST reply actions
I do not recognise you anymore
Go and ask the GSW fans and they will confirm Biedrinis cannot guard anybody…
Was thinking more along the lines of Randolph as the centrepiece of a Bosh deal. I guarantee Biedrins would play better D than almost anyone on the Raptors right now (remember, we are HISTORICALLY awful… not just awful — the WORST in NBA history).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 17, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Not really a high bar.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 17, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
wnad how exactly adding more of the same would be an improvement?
BTW Randolph is not having a good season, I do not follow GSW enough to know whether it is a Randolph problem or a team problem though
If the Raptors lose to the Nets?
Then all hope is lost. If you can’t stop the worst team in the league, then you don’t deserve to make the playoffs.
I thought, even before the season began, that Turkoglu was going to be Colangelo’s Vernon Wells. A terrible contract that is close to untradeable. This is why I wished Turkoglu signed with the Trail Blazers and didn’t turn around to sign with the Raptors.
5 years ago...
As Doug Smith pointed out in his blog, today marks the 5 year anniversary of the VC trade. Interesting to see discussion about trading our current best player (notice I didn’t use franchise player).
Funny thing is, last night post-game I got the same sort of vibe as I did in that “dead zone” before VC was dealt…not good times.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Well, at some point, this team will have to figure out how much of a chance it has to keep Bosh, because I think all of us fans believe the writing is on the wall. If he waits too long, Bosh’s market value will fall through the floor because everyone will hold a gun to Colangelo’s head, including Bosh.
We are now in the middle of some serious trouble and you know, when a team keeps displaying the same problems over and over again, it doesn’t matter what the record shows in wins and losses. It just matters on the court in individual games. This team doesn’t even have the mental fortitude to battle back from being down some points in a game anymore. Belinelli says it’s hard to battle back from 10 points. Of course it is, but every team in the league seems to at least want to try. Even last year’s O’Neal team did that. It seems like if this team can’t get an easy win, it just stops trying.
And that’s not going to change with just trading Bosh, or firing Triano. The culture of this team is just all wrong.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 17, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions
What can a fan do?
After paying double face value to go to game 5 of the Raps Nets series, I swore I would never do that again. So, thinking I would enjoy at least a round in the playoffs, I bought season seats. But we whiffed on the playoffs last year…
And foolishly…
I re-upped this season… thinking I would get to enjoy the guaranteed playoff seat perk of my season ticket package…
Not looking like a smart move.
Now I got to about 80% of the games. I have no business I can write this off under, and I thoroughly enjoy the games as events… but this team is really wearing on me. It’s not the losing… it’s how we lose.
I was watching the Bucks Lakers and Thunder Mavs last night… and both games saw teams fighting until the end. I forgot how a good game was played…
So what is a fan to do? I don’t think booing is ever really productive… and Toronto fans like to boo whenever the opportunity presents itself… warranted or not… cancel my season seats next year? I’m sure my 2 seats in the Grays will really wake up management.
The fact remains the Raps are a near model NBA franchise. They do everything but win on a consistent basis. The product I pay for, the event I buy tickets to, is always well presented… it’s just the salaries I’m paying that don’t seem to be worth it.
Fans are left without any real option to voice their displeasure. I don’t want to see the Raps become a Milwaukee or Indiana of the NBA (in terms of market and stability), I don’t want to see fair weather fans… so I’ll probably re-new… but the saddest thing for me, as a paying fan, is that I may be out of options for how I can show the organization how I feel… but it appears that BC is just as cornered. And for the first time as a fan… I don’t see any hope on the horizon. Dark days indeed.
Glass Half Full Post
they are only 1 game out of playoff spot thanks to the other weak teams in the east.
Still hate to watch them!!!
Reggie Evans
I think the Raptors do not play good defense what so ever they lack hustle, grit and a sense of ergency. But all those will hopefully improve when Reggie gets back, that guy brings the toughness, grit and energy we lack defensively.
Now Reggie is not enough for the Raps to be an top 4 team but he will give the Raps what they need to be at least a 6th place team. Second round in the playoffs probably not but you never know.
The Raps need to really hang their hat on defense as sold defense will lead to more fb points, energy etc. I think thats where it has to start as their offense can not be relied on night in night out.
I agree....
That Reggie will bring something but he won’t change things. He will only play 12-18 minutes a night and the issues are way bigger than Reggie Evans.
I like him, I like him on the Raps. I don’t think he is necessarily a big difference maker, let alone a miracle worker.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 17, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
It depends
If you think this is a talent issue you are right, if (as you said) this is an effort/ mental issue it can change overnight. It is not that the effort/ D quality is consistently not there, we have seen them defending well with good effort. It is however clear there is some sand on that team gears and I do not feel like speculating on what it is.
Given the contractual situation if a chip is going to fall it is likely to be Chris (this independent of the player value) if that was the case one can hope you can get a Chandler / Lopez kind of player.
I worry about Reggie for a few reasons.
1 – By the time he steps on the court, that’s half a season gone almost. Pretty hard to get up to speed at that point, especially so quickly.
2 – He’s not a starter. Hell, he wasn’t even a regular rotation guy on a VERY mediocre Philly team last year.
Translation – I think he’ll help a bit, but he’s not the solution.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
also, we have to keep in mind that what BC has done, since he got here, is exactly what most of us fans were looking for. a guy who wasn’t afraid to swing deals. now hindsight is 20/20 and obviously it hasn’t worked out but I still give him credit for tyring. he’s swung for the fences and missed.
though, one could argue it all started with bargs. he (BC) has been trying to work the team around that pick for a while.
You nailed it
BC seems more interested in working around a failed #1 overall pick than properly building a team. The sooner he checks his ego and makes moves to correct the mistake, the sooner this franchise can turn things around.
At this point, you’ve lost Bosh and have to deal him — but I would send Bargnani out either with Bosh or in a seperate deal.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 17, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Bargs
I’ve been rooting for him to become a dominant first-overall type player for over 3 years now and he’s just not doing it. It’s like a more talented version of Joey Graham. There are flashes sure, but at this stage of his career, he should be able to go out and dominate.
And who knows, as some of you have pointed out, maybe he can in a different situation? I’m starting to have serious doubts but I’ve always conceded that he and Bosh aren’t a great pairing.
So if BC is bent on keeping Bosh, I’m convinced it’s time to let Bargs explore greener pastures.
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Dec 17, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
A more talented version of Graham?
I’d take Graham anytime over Bargnani. Graham has more heart. Too bad he wasn’t given a chance like what the coaches are giving Bargnani.
~Why worry? We'll all die anyway~
re: Bargs
I’m not saying Bargnani is a failure or waste of an NBA player. In a offense first role of the bench, perhaps like Charlie V in Detroit (how ironic), I’m sure he could complement a stable of bigmen who compensate for his weaknesses. We’re not that team with Bosh. And we may not be that team without Bosh either. I advocated holding on to him until he showed us something, anything, and could garner a decent return if the long term fit wasn’t there. A team trading for him has cost certainty at 10 million even for 5 years. They also have a fellow that can be a perimeter threat, and also drive the hoop. Whether he’s starting material or suited to first featured big off the bench is a murky area.
Having Bargnani AND Bosh leave is alot of turmoil for one offseason. However, it may be the most efficient way to change the focus of the team’s building efforts while moving pieces that will bring value in return. With Jose and Hedo here for the next four years, the plan should be to bring in bigmen that protect the paint and clean the glass. This may be a pipe dream, but how else can you retain Jose and Hedo without resenting them for their flaws?
What happens if they loose to NJ?
Like I said in the chat last night, if they loose to NJ and something major does not happen (major, like a Bargani trade, Triano firing or BC resignation) there should be an angry mob walking down Yonge Street Saturday night with torches and pickaxes!
Seriously though, the sad thing is the Raps now play New Jersey, New Orleans, Detroit, Detroit and Charlotte and could (possibly) win 4 out of those 5 games. That is the absolute worst case scenario, because it just prolongs the inevitable because the next time they play a decent opponent they will just get blown out again as this is the absolute weakest team mentally in the league. The moment they are challenged they fold up like origami.
We can talk about the responsibility of the players and coaches, but ultimately this farce of a roster rests on BC. Like Franchise stated, there is some talent on this squad, but collectively this team does not compliment each other and plays terribly together. And after last night’s action, it is now apparent (to me anyways) that these guys LOATH each other (just watch Bosh and/or Jack’s expressions after Bargani misses a defensive rotation).
Just think about this (and try not to claw your own brain out of your head through your nose with a coat hanger): over the next 5 years the Raptors are obligated to pay over $130 MILION DOLLARS to Calderon, Bargani and Turkoglu. (Again for affect) $130 MILLION. Over the next three they have $28 MIL of their cap tied to these jump shooting ballerinas. How can you expect to be a successful franchise with that amount of cake devoted to three players that only play on one end of the court? Rant done…
Just how far would you go?
Do you think the Raptors should execute a controlled demolition of sections of the roster, not unlike the current and previous Blue Jays Gms?
Your points about being tied to Hedo and Calderon are sound. I think Bargs is moveable, but it would be a shallow pool of suitors. And at his salary there would be some garbage coming back in any deal. However, the time for any philosophy change is now. Spend the rest of the year gauging value, and planning how you’d allocate the money freed up via expiring contracts both this year and next. And the best plan for some of that capspace may be no plan at all. Retain some breathing room under the cap, because our problems run far deeper then any MLE free agent. If your going through an identify crisis (which is EXACTLY what this is) better to do it with less commitments then you had going in. Trade Bosh in a package for a marginal 20ppg scorer, and you’re just slapping a different sticker on the same sorry product.
Bargnani is a wasted #1 pick
Michael Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Pervis Ellison, Joe Smith….. I say Bargnani ranks among those guys. The problem is Colangelo will not trade him because he’s his pick. So expect Bosh to leave the team, either through free agency or via trade. I see him getting traded in the middle of this season. I just hope the Raptors get value for him, unlike the Carter trade. Bargnani will be the focal point of the team, so brace yourself, people. It’s gonna be an ugly next 5 seasons because I don’t think any other team will trade for Bargnani. Who would want a 7-foot 260-pound stiff who’s got no defense at all?
~Why worry? We'll all die anyway~
As Grange pointed out today, they won’t do anything for at least a month.
I believe, though, that this can work out for us, as long as BC isn’t deluded that this team is great. My hope is that a good next month or so will show off some assets and make our team more valuable than it currently is. At least, that’s the hope.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 17, 2009 5:02 PM EST reply actions
WTF?
A loss on a back to back to an NBA championship finalist and suddenly it’s all Bargnani’s fault? Sound and reasonable people whose opinions I respect piling it on and making statements like he’s a more talented Joey Graham? To borrow from Saturday night live, “Seriously?”
Questions:
Is Bargnani more talented than Bosh?
Is his lack of development as a player the consequence of his having to change his physique and mindset to play a position he hadn’t played before entering the NBA? I mean most centres in this league have spent at least a decade playing the position prior to turning professional.
Have we as fans seen the real Andrea Bargnani at all, the one that had more than just Raptors talent evaluators considering him the best long term choice in the draft?
I think Reggie's career might be over
Hopefully Colangelo’s too. (I just read a fine book by Bill Simmons, “The Book of Basketball,” that in one section outlines how horrible a job he did while in Phoenix.) If anyone wants, I could post the whole page-long section here or as a separate article somehow.
They should have traded Bosh after last season’s debacle and gone after Wall. I said it all along, and I won’t stop: Bosh in the MAIN reason this team sucks. Again, Simmons’ book outlines how good leaders (alpha dogs he calls them) have historically led their teams with competitiveness, force of will, and genuine willingness to kill themselves to play D and make their teammates better. Bosh fails on all accounts and needs to be shipped the hell away from here. Move Bargnani to PF, surround him with 4 defensive minded players and let’s see what happens. I guarantee we win more than with Bosh and his bunch of tired-ass losers.
LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a long one....
Trading Bosh before he bolts is Colangelo’s last and likely best chance of changing the culture of this team. With all due respect to the rest of the players on this team, they won’t fetch you the kind of player that we need to change the culture.
So the question becomes: What kind of player do we want in return?
In my opinion, we need:
-A vocal leader and a leader by example
-Someone that’s super competitive
-Someone that can defend
-Someone that you can build with
Notice that I didn’t say “a scorer” or “an all-star”. We do not need another scorer, and we are not going to get an all-star….why trade for Bosh if you have to give up an all-star?
Next, we have to look at the teams that Bosh would possibly sign a long-term deal with. This narrows things down alot. That’s why I don’t think much about the Golden State rumours….there’s no chance Bosh is signing long-term there, so why would G.S. make that deal?
Teams that have a shot at Bosh (in my opinion):
Houston
Dallas
Miami
New York
L.A. Clippers
Chicago
Who do we want from those teams that we can build with? I don’t see a deal with Dallas. Houston has some nice role players, but not the kind of guy I referred to above. Miami and New York have some interesting options (Beasley, Lee) but again, not the kind of guy that we need (no defense or leadership). That leaves the Clippers and Chicago. The only deal that I’d do with LA is one that included Griffin. He doesn’t necessarily match my criteria, but you can’t say no to that kind of talent. But I don’t think they’d deal him. Which leaves us with Chicago. You’re not getting Derek Rose from them, and I don’t have alot of interest in the rest of the roster, except for one guy.
Joakim Noah
Not an elite talent by any stretch, but he’s exactly what this team needs if they are at all interested in changing the culture. To make the deal work, you’d have to throw in alot of contracts to make the numbers work, but he’d be the guy that I’d have to get in a Bosh deal.
This team is seriously flawed and needs a change in attitude. We really only have one shot at doing this in the near future, and that’s through trading Bosh. Ideally, we could acquire that sort of player while keeping Bosh, but that doesn’t look likely. So we have to make the best out of him while we still can.
Blueprint for the Toronto Raptors
I don’t understand why we need to make quick changes in the near future. I think the best plan is to stick to the players that we already have and build through the draft. But, of course this will never happen because there are too many fans that just don’t have the patience to see a losing team year after year. We should really wait for the next great generation player in the draft. The reason why we are in the position that we are in today is because we constantly try to make quick fixes.
If you go through the NBA and look at the championship teams Shaq and Tim Duncan have won most of the championships in the past decade. Kobe has won some too. These players mentioned are the best players of the last decade beside Lebron.
Lakers 08-09, Celtics 07-08, Spurs 06-07, Miami 05-06, Spurs 04-05, Spurs 02-03, Lakers 01-02, Lakers 00-01. Lakers 99-00, Spurs 98-99.
It has been proven over and over again that teams who have won championships have won with dominant players on the offensive end and defensive end of the court. Particularly they have won with dominant teams built on defense and a center who can dominate on the defensive and offensive end of the court.
If you look at the teams that are qualifying for playoff spots you will see teams who have their franchine player picked from the draft.
Boston – Paul Pierce, Orlando – Dwight Howard, Cleveland – Lebron James
Atlanta – Josh Smith, Miami – Dwayne Wade, Milwaukee – Brandon Jennings
Detroit – Charlotte – Gerarld Wallace
Lakers – Kobe Braynt, Denver – Carmelo Anthony, Dallas – Dirk Nowitzki, Phoenix – Steve Nash, Utah – Deron Williams, – Brandon Roy, San Antonio – Tim Duncan, Houston, Carl Landry.
Teams that play defense year after year are the teams that make the playoffs year after year. Defense doesn’t mean those years of Kevin O’neal winding down the shot clock to 5 seconds to take a shot defense means to create turnover, rebounds, get in front of their man to challenge shots, communication etc.
My point is that the Raptors should not make a quick fix to this team. They should tank. Allow Bosh to walk away, get nothing in return and build by the draft to wait for the next superstar. Bosh is not even a top 5 player in the league so he is not a superstar.
I don’t see anything wrong with a team waiting for the next Lebron James or the next Kobe Bryant or the next Tim Duncan or the next Shaq or the next Dwight Howard. These are all players that any team would love to have. And with having these types of players the franchise will be winning for years to come.
The marketing team of the Toronto Raptors just needs to market to a fan base that is young and sell potential.
You’re right. Building through the draft is always the best way to go. The problem we have is that we won’t be bad enough to get that next superstar unless we can manage to unload Bargs, Hedo and Jose as well. In an ideal world, I’d get rid of all of them and load up on draft picks. But I don’t think we’d get a decent 1st round pick for any of these guys. So you’re left with the option of dealing these guys away for crap, or being a “treadmill team” while waiting for these contracts to expire.
Even if we manage to accomplish all of that, and manage to land a top pick, there’s no guarantee that the next Lebron or the next Kobe will be in those drafts or that our GM will be sharp enough to recognize them if they are.
Just wait until we can get the high draft picks that we need. Just look at the Timberwolves.
My point is to wait to be bad enough to unload players and wait for the next superstar. Wait until Bosh, Hedo, Bargs, and Jose contracts run out. Then keep on getting draft picks. What we must remember is that Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, and Tim Duncan were all advertised as being amazing players even before they played their first game in the NBA. Yes, there’s no guarntee, but I’d rather tank each season and have fun with the draft knowing that the draft is the best way to build a team rather than bandage our team each season and market our team as a winning 50 games in the season only to see our team suck.
Already, Derozan was advertised on ESPN as could be the best player in this draft based on potential. He doesn’t have a killer instinct. We know that he is not going to be a top 50 player of all time in basketball. But nontheless, I would play him 40 minutes a game to see what his real potential is, let him play though his mistakes.
Derozan
We can agree on that. How Triano has handled Derozan so far is atrocious. Why he sits him when we’re down 20, I’ll never understand. I’d be fine playing him 40 mins a game. It’s not like we have anything good behind him anyway. Play him till he drops!
I’m not saying that dealing Bosh is a must, but if you do, you need to make sure that you get something back that’s worthwhile. If you’re just going to get a bunch of guys that will maintain the status quo, I’d rather keep Bosh here, let him walk, and take the cap space.
The problem with this team isn’t a lack of talent, it’s a lack of willingness to do what it takes to win. That means doing the things that other guys won’t: Diving for loose balls, taking the charge, fighting for rebounds, etc. etc. etc.
This team needs to grasp the concept that loading up on slightly above average finesse players and throwing them on the floor together won’t work. Once they wrap their heads around that, they can go about building a proper team with guys that are committed to winning.
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