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Tip-In, Toronto Raptors' Post-Game Report: Hats off to Triano

It took half the game, but the Raptors' D stepped up when it mattered most.

Frank Gunn - AP

It took half the game, but the Raptors' D stepped up when it mattered most.


After a rough start, the Toronto Raptors got their act together in the second half en route to a 99 to 89 win over the Chicago Bulls.  Franchise breaks things down and in the process, takes his hat off to Jay Triano's coaching job...

Star-divide

If you're a Raptors' fan, you had cause for concern going into last night's game.

The club was leading the league in offensive efficiency yet also leading the league in defensive ineptitude.

It had just come from getting clocked in Dallas, and blowing a winnable game in San Antonio, and on top of this, was one game away from embarking on another tough Western road swing.  It was indeed quite possible that a loss to the Bulls at home would be L number three in a row en route to possibly a whole lot more.

And unfortunately, the first half of last night's affair didn't look like it was going to be any sort of reversal of fortunes.

Toronto came out guns blazing, jacking up 3's and looking to run Chicago right out of the gym.  However the Bulls showed that they could play that style too, and with little to no defensive resistance, the Dinos found themselves down at the half, and looking to be on their way to a loss.

Howland and I were actually at the game last night, grateful recipients of some last-minute ticket offerings via our 9 to 5 jobs, and it was at this point that I exclaimed to him:

"Triano better tear a strip off this team in the locker room.  They can't keep playing this way and expect to win this season!"

Howland echoed my sentiments and noted that the Raps had been nearly allergic to the paint in the first half yet again.  Outside of Chris Bosh, the rest of the team, bench included, seemed quite happy to simply run plays for each other at the top of the key, and heave long-range bombs.

And on the defensive end the Raptors seemed to avoid the paint as well, something underscored by the fact that Taj Gibson, a rookie better known for his defensive work, was Chicago's leading scorer.  Make no mistake about it, Gibson is having an impressive rookie campaign, but he's a great role player, not a primary scoring option.  The problem was, with Toronto so busy chasing the likes of Derrick Rose and Luol Deng around, Gibson was constantly open for lay-ups and short jumpers.  The one thing Toronto wasn't doing defensively in fact, was forcing the Bulls into long-range shots from the perimeter, something they've struggled mightly with in the wake of Ben Gordon's departure.

So how exactly did Toronto end up wrestling the lead back from Chicago in the second half, and winning this game?

In my books, they did three things, the first of these, was to stop chucking.

Look, the Dinos are a flamethrower waiting to go off from downtown.  However just like a flamethrower, the long-range shot isn't always the most efficient offensive weapon.  Long rebounds from said shots lead to run-outs by the opponent, and in particular, when your "bigs" are the guys hoisting up the shots, there's usually nary a rebounder in sight for second chance opps.  The advantage of having someone like Chris Bosh is that he can score from inside AND out.  This season he's been especially aggressive inside, so why not start the offense through him, and if that opens things up for your perimeter shooters, so be it.

And that's what Toronto did.

Suddenly Bosh was being fed down low, and Andrea was looking for post position as well.  The team attempted only four 3-pointers in the half, and aside from a few sloppy passes by Hedo Turkoglu late in the game, did a much more efficient job scoring the ball.

Contrast that with the first half when the Dinos jacked up SIXTEEN 3's!

The second thing Toronto did was step up the D.

Apparently Triano did indeed ring the Raptors' bells in the locker room at half telling his team that they "needed to fix things right now," and it showed.  Suddenly Chicago was forced to take their shots from afar instead of finding easy opportunities around the rim, and their offense ground to a halt.

Of course, helping these first two factors was some miserable shooting by the Bulls.

Even when they did get open looks, they just couldn't knock things down, and foul trouble for Joakim Noah early in the fourth quarter also made things tough for Chi-town.

This combination of improved offensive discipline by Toronto in addition to some improved D, and the horrific chucking by the Bulls late in the game (they went scoreless for six minutes in the fourth quarter) sealed the W for the home side.  It was an important win against a team they'll likely be fighting for a playoff spot with, and a great way to break up the back-to-back Western Conference road swings.

Before we end this though, I really want to emphasize the coaching job done by Jay Triano last night, particularly after half.  He could have simply rolled out Jarrett Jack instead of DeMar DeRozan in crunch time as he had been doing so far this season but last night he decided to switch things up.

Not only did he sub Antoine Wright in for Jack, and have Wright guard Derrick Rose on the perimeter, but he also pulled Andrea and replaced him with Amir Johnson.  Suddenly, Rose was being guarded by a 6-7 forward instead of the laterally-challenged Jose Calderon.  Rose wasn't able to get to his sweet spots on the floor as easily, and you could see Chicago's offense stagnating. 

Then, after Bulls' coach Vinny Del Negro called a time-out to re-group his offense, Triano pulled out the masterstroke with the Amir for Andrea switch.  Del Negro's plan out of the timeout was to free Rose up by running screen and rolls with Rose at the top of the key in order to switch Wright off, and force a Toronto "big" to guard Derrick.  However now, that "big" was Amir Johnson, all arms and legs, and quick enough again to give Rose trouble even on the perimeter.  And Wright at 6-7, could certainly handle Deng, Noah, or whoever he would now have to guard.

The plan worked like a charm and the Bulls found it very hard to get the looks they wanted, often having to settle for fadeaway jumpers.  The plan also gave the Raptors a much better rebounding presence to end the game with both Amir and Antoine helping out CB4.

And for bonus points, to ensure all egos were kept intact, once the win looked secure, Triano subbed Bargs back in to end the game.

All in all, some great work and hopefully Triano continues with this methodology.

I never really understood the "Jack and Jose" combo to finish games in all honesty because Jack's not a good enough shooter at the 2 and Jose's simply isn't a good enough defender at the 1.  And if roles are reveresed so that Jack is guarding the 1 spot, wouldn't it just make more sense to use a bigger defender like Wright or Weems with Jose instead?  If this team wants to win games it's going to have to put egos aside and that means that to close some games maybe it makes sense to use Wright and Calderon, and in others maybe even Wright and Jack, or some completely different combination in the back-court altogether.

And of course the front-court can't be immune from these sort of changes either.

Hedo Turkoglu (who apparently injured his left hip late in the game) was sucking win badly late, looking like he needed a smoke, and I was begging Triano to swap him out as well.

Some of the players on this roster are the benefactors of newly-minted, big money deals.

However if the end goal for this club is a solid playoff spot, Triano's going to have to look past the dollar signs, and make the best use of the skills at his disposal, regardless of their pay-grade.

FRANCHISE

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see what you want to see

Because i’m sure it had nothing to do with the 5 fouls Andrea had (how do i roll my eyes on the internet?)

But if it makes you people feel better to write your own narrative regardless of facts or truth i guess you have every right to. Its just a shame that you can’t get it right. The hate blinders for Andrea on this site is a joke as are the rose-colored glasses when it comes to Bosh.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 7:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

So let me ask you this, right now, without Bosh, can this team win 30 games? Andrea’s not the one getting to the free throw line 12 times a game, or the one pulling down double digit rebounds.

Look, I want Andrea to succeed, but the fact right now is that he’s just not consistently doing the job at both ends of the court.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Nov 12, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s another end of the court besides the offensive end? Man, I need to watch more basketball.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely - why do you even bother?

Of course they would. From what i have seen this year, when Bosh is not one the floor we seem to play well as a cohesive unit and usually end up with a lead.

Now as to your assertion that Andrea does not get to the free throw line i would suggest that if you gave Andrea 30 touches like Bosh you wouldn’t be making such a claim. Which goes into last night and the night before about mismatches. Andrea had a rookie on him but not 1 play was called for him in the first half to take the rookie down low. Regardless of what some want to imagine, Andrea has been really good on the block. The same with the Spurs game.

Now if anyone isn’t doing it on both sides of the court that person would be Chris Bosh and this is what i mean by having rose-colored glasses. I suggest next time don’t focus on watching Andrea on defense. Instead watch Bosh, you will be disappointed by what you see and wonder to yourself, we’re going to pay this guy 130 million? Yes it is that bad!

Andrea has been consistent this year, to suggest otherwise is just letting your own prejudices get in the way of seeing what is going on. You have no facts to back it up only opinion.

Also you fail to give credit to Andrea for probably the game turning moment when he stole the ball from the out of bounds play. That was a five point swing and set the raptors up to win the game, but that’s right, you would have to give credit to Andrea for his defense and that would go against your MO, can’t have that can we.

So do me a favor and watch Bosh on the defensive side of the ball next game and come back and let me know what your thoughts are.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Down Low

Positive that if you watch the first half Andrea spent most of his time frightened of the painted area. Dude will spend multiple possessions and not even come close to the basket. It’s not that he can’t….it’s just that he doesn’t. Also arguing that if Bargs got 30 touches he would spend all day at the line just isn’t an assertion with any merit. He HATES contact. Even when he is out on the perimeter and uses the pump fake he doesn’t use it to create contact.

Although we use facts as much as possible you are quite correct that this is opinion. That’s the whole point…to give opinion. If you just want stats NBA.com would be happy to assist.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Nov 12, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What are you taking about? Andrea has proven he does not shy around from contact, again your projecting your own prejudices on to reality and they do not match up.

‘Look, I want Andrea to succeed, but the fact right now is that he’s just not consistently doing the job at both ends of the court.’

If it is just opinion don’t go around saying it is fact.

Listen, i have no issue’s with you guys being critical of Andrea but please be consistent in your reporting and be fair to all the players. Don’t let Bosh’s lack of D go rewarded, this guy is suppose to be a leader but he’s one of the softest guy’s on the defensive end.

If you feel so confident that Andrea is a poor defensive player please go and review the 16 OR from the Spurs game. Guess what, Andrea had only 1 which was his fault, every single other one was on Bosh and Amir. Go and watch the game again if you don’t believe me.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Adjusted plus/minus

If you want facts (and are progressive enough to consider advanced stats), check out the adjusted plus/minus numbers from Basketballvalue.com:
http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

Or perhaps some more stats from Basketball Reference:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

So Bosh is top 10 in adjusted plus/minus, second in the league in Player Efficiency Rating (behind Chris Paul and ahead of LeBron James), 4th in Win Shares, top 20 in true shooting percentage, among the league leaders in the rebounding categories, etc.

Bargnani does show up among the league leaders in offensive categories like 3-point shooting, free throw percentage, true shooting percentage (because of the 3-pointers), and… ummm… personal fouls.

And I would think that last one deserves a bit more discussion. A seven-foot centre that is fouling a lot is probably one that is constantly being caught out of position on defence and is forced to commit stupid fouls to compensate.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or he actually plays defense and is makin up for his teammates failings?

Yes, lets use stats instead of empirical evidence.

Watch the next game and only watch Bosh on the defensive end and let me know how you feel about his defense.

As for your inducing thoughts on fouls one could counter and simply say that Andrea is left out to dry by his teammates time and time again. Who’s right? I’m actually surprised that you came to the conclusion that you did about fouls with the porous perimeter defense, well no, i’m not surprised.

Its great that the black-hole known as Bosh gets his offensive numbers but if you think that this is helping the team and won’t come back to be a major issue you are sadly mistaken.

Once again Bosh will work to get his numbers. The scary thing is though that we are going to waste an entire basketball season so Bosh can get his numbers and walk at the end of the year. YAY!

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m aware of Bosh’s shortcomings on the defensive end of the floor, but I cringe a helluva lot more watching Bargnani — with his hands by his sides — standing around and not even challenging for rebounds on the defensive end.

Fair enough, he’s bombing away from the outside and won’t be grabbing anything other than a very long offensive rebound. But defensively, he’s supposed to be a seven-foot centre and his rebounding is atrocious.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Again revisionist history

Stop projecting what you think is going on into reality. Can you give specific examples of just when Andrea did this? Because from what my eyes tell me he is boxing out his man on the defensive end. I don’t see him standing around anymore than i see Bosh standing around (and he is your LEADER).

Listen man, i enjoy your passion for the defensive side of the ball but Andrea is not as bad as you maintain and you do not hold other players to the same standards that you hold Andrea to.

The kid has played the Center position in the NBA for about 2 years after never having played there before. People say it is the hardest position to learn so give the kid a break. I think that he has made huge strides already on the defensive side, Your expecting him to play like a seasoned vet and that is not a fair standard to hold him to.

He is not perfect and still has a lot to learn and will still piss off people during a game, hell even i yell at him to move down to the post or to be tighter on his pick and roll defense but he is not the disaster that you guys depict him as. I think this is more to my point, criticize him all you want but please stop with the over the top rhetoric. He is not atrocious, nor horrible or any other of the degrading adjectives people use to describe him.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Specific example? OK, go back to the Orlando game and watch Ryan Anderson fly in for an uncontested putback dunk because someone (*cough*Bargnani*cough*) was not boxing him out… Or the Spurs game where Matt Bonner drove and threw down a two-handed dunk while Bargnani stepped up late and made a half-hearted attempt to contest the shot… Or the Memphis game where Bargs was literally standing around watching other players rebound.

As an aside, welcome aboard and I enjoy the debate…

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot the Cle game Ilgauskas slower and older than dirt beat Bargs for offensive rebounds.

by staylor on Nov 12, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

shakes head

The Matt Bonner drive was all on Wright, the other 2 examples i will give you.

Now can you please let me know what you thought of the very first play of the game last night. You know, the one where Andrea boxed out his man (Gibson) while Bosh just stood there and let Noah grab the OR and putback? How about the one where Gibson took Bosh in the post and Bosh just stood there and watched him lay the ball in the basket.

What about the 5 consecutive shots that Bosh let Dirk get off in the Dallas without even putting an effort into putting a hand up?

See every player has lapses. The point i want to stress is to stop using the sensationalist rhetoric and hold every player to the same standards.

 I just shake my head to think your asking a kid who has played 2 years at the NBA center position to be better than a 4 time all-star at defense. Does that even makes sense to you?

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it’s on Wright to a point. Yes, it’s pretty brutal that goofy-ass Matt Bonner blows by you… but once he’s in the paint and heading toward the rim, why does he have such a clear path to the basket?

Listen, I don’t think Bosh is the greatest one-on-one defender in the world. But at least he’s on the glass, and his numbers reflect that.

In the NBA, there is a proven correlation between rebounding and winning. And the majority of your rebounding needs to come from your bigs. I don’t see how a centre who grabs 4 rebounds in a game (the majority of which have to fall directly into his lap in order to collect them) is going to be the centrepiece of a winning squad.

All the Bosh bashers need to remember the name Pau Gasol, who was supposedly soft as hell in Memphis and then a key piece of a championship in Los Angeles.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why Bosh getting more shine

Field goals Bosh 68-134 Bargs 56-112
22 more attempts of Bosh divide by 8 games
less than 3 more shots a game

Rebounds Bosh 92 28OF Bargs 51 9OF
Bosh 3.5 OF per game Bargs 1.13 OF per game

I don’t hate Bargs (wish he’d improve his rebounding and play tougher) but people talking bout all the plays being run for Bosh, he’s getting all the shots and being the black hole is a load of crap. Think it’s pretty clear why Bosh has more attempts

And Bargs is in his forth year, first overall pick expectations should be high. If Bargs is not scoring he’s basically useless.

by staylor on Nov 12, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No one is saying that Bosh is a great defender, but he’s certainly a better one than Bargnani is. You want specific examples? Look at last night. Bargnani, time and time again, failed to close out on the pick and roll and did nothing as the Chicago player drove to the hoop. It happened with Deng, Rose and Salmons numerous times. Bosh, n the other hand, stepped out enough to stop the penetration most of the times.

And you want to know why Bargnani can never be the scorer Bosh is? Read my primer:
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/2009/10/what-makes-a-great-scorer/

The problem with Bargnani is when his shot isn’t going down, most of the times he’s not only completely useless, he can actually hurt the team. He doesn’t get to the line at a high enough rate to manufacture points like Bosh does, he doesn’t rebound the ball well enough to either help the team on the defensive end, or get putbacks on the offensive end, like Bosh does, his defense is so poor that he consistently hurts the team on that end of the floor.

There is no way in the world the team would do well with Bargnani as the main guy for the above reasons, and you don’t seem to want to believe stats OR specific examples of why.

And no one is asking Bargnani to be a great defender, but since he has less of an offensive burden than Bosh, he should be able to spend a little more energy on that end. He doesn’t. It’s often the case that the team’s best scorer takes plays off on the defensive end to save himself (I’m not defending it, but it happens). Bargnani plays like he is the best offensive player on the team. He should be focusing on defense. She SHOULD be better than Bosh not only because of this, but because he’s bigger and longer than Bosh.

Again, no one is saying Bosh is a defensive monster, but the team played better on defense when he was on the court and Bargnani was off. Bosh was actually able to stop the Chicago players from driving on switches. And by fighting for defensive rebounds, Bosh is keeping the ball out of Chicagos hands for a second chance at a basket.

It’s obvious you like Bargnani, but he will never, ever be the player Bosh is right now.

by Tim W. on Nov 12, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eric, how do you do it? I mean... how do you...

Nuts, i wrote a great rebuttal but just lost it. Even got the ‘jump the shark’ reference in. Oh well.

I will add one thing though. You are being very liberal in your assumption i want Andrea to be the ‘focal point’ of the offense. Simply not true. I want a cohesive offense that takes advantage of mismatches, passes the ball, makes the extra pass for a easy dunk and movement.

More importantly i want them to play as a team. If you include everyone this can only help you win games.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both are piss poor defenders. Period. (CB Defensive Rating = 114 and AB = 116) But so far CB has made up for it in Offence. (CB Simple Rating: CB = 15.8 and AB = 3.4.

This is like arguing which orange is more orange, Florida or California’s. Both are orange and right now both are fairly ugly. But one thing’s for sure. One is right now sweeter than the other, by quite a bit.

by Ustation on Nov 12, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sunshine

With out a doubt the Bosh orange is getting more sunlight than the Andrea orange. I would rather have all the oranges get sunlight instead of just a couple. More productive tree that way.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well if ’Drea gets double digits Rs or his rating comes down or his efficiency goes up, the light will cometh.

by Ustation on Nov 12, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry.. meant defensive rating

by Ustation on Nov 12, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In theory you are correct!

You make a valid point. It would be hard for them to ignore him if that was the case but not a impossible task i have to believe. I have my doubts that Chris is as altruistic as some believe, especially this year.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bosh is a monster at drawing fouls. Andrea is not. These are facts.

Even if Andrea isn’t averse to contact, he doesn’t draw fouls like Bosh.

by bigweeze on Nov 12, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think this is my biggest thing with the Bosh/Andrea debate.

Bosh right now, and last night’s game was a perfect example, is drawing a ton of fouls off of work in the paint, not simply beating his man off the dribble from the wing as he traditionally has. Andrea would definitely average more FT attempts if he were the focal point on O, but they wouldn’t be the same type as he simply doesn’t do the dirty work in the paint that Bosh does. If Bosh weren’t on this team, Andrea might average 7 or 8 FT’s a game, but I feel that’s on the high end because as Big Weeze said, he just doesn’t play a style of game that forces refs to constantly make calls.

Is that his fault? No, that’s just not his basketball-make-up if you will. (At least at this point.)

And do I think Bosh is perfect?

My issue since Andrea was drafted has been more that the two (he and Bosh) just don’t fit well together. I much prefer to see Andrea at the 5, and a Paul Millsap or David West type at the 4, or conversely, Bosh at the 4, and a Chris Kaman type at the 5.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Nov 12, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if Bargnani were the focal point of the offense, he still wouldn’t get a lot of free throws. As I said in my post on the subject, his FGA/FTA ratio is low, and always has been low. This ratio fluctuates very little whether you are the focal point of the offense or the 5th option on the floor. It’s how you play.

And I hated the pick for the very same reason, that he and Bosh didn’t fit well together.

by Tim W. on Nov 12, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You seem, however, not taking into consideration that he(andrea) plays outside because of a team choice. Actually there has been more than a debate on why in hell he is not given the ball when he posts up and his team mates do not do that, lately in spite of good results. You analysis is hence bogus and the fact you put it in your blog, does not make it true. So, while it is still up to Andrea to be more assertive and demand the ball, (frankly, he has all the titles to do that,) it should be also a matter to be taken in the hands of the coaching staff.
The way in which Chris is used, as good as he is, is just wrong and a more distributed load would benefit everyone, Chris included.

by renato on Nov 12, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“The way in which Chris is used, as good as he is, is just wrong and a more distributed load would benefit everyone, Chris included.”

I think that is a good comment and one the team is working towards.

I also think you are much too quick to Bargnani’s defence, as usual.

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

your two last sentences are semantically incompatible, you cannot agree with the post and criticize the poster…..

by renato on Nov 12, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why/ They are both accurate statements.

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Raptor fans made exactly the same argument with Villanueva, and his FGA/FTA ratio didn’t change when he was traded to Milwaukee and played PF. If you read my post, you’ll see that a player doesn’t change the way he draws fouls. Either he does it at a high rate or he doesn’t. Bargnani doesn’t. You’ll notice that Bargnani doesn’t draw many fouls when he posts up. He doesn’t naturally initiate contact in the post, where Bosh gets a lot of fouls.

And it’s not necessarily true that a more balanced attack would benefit the team. They have absolutely no problems offensively. When everyone is hitting, then Bosh defers to whoever is hitting, but when people stop hitting, he takes over. They haven’t had a problem with their offense all year, so I don’t know why you are trying to fix it. It’s their defense and rebounding that need work.

by Tim W. on Nov 12, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great point

It’s like the Chicago Bulls a few years ago — they were great defensively and had a bunch of cap space, so what did they do? They signed Ben Wallace to a huge contract.

Did it make them better defensively? Of course not. They actually got worse. Because there was no room to improve defensively anyway, even if Wallace maintained his production from his Pistons days.

This team is the best in the NBA offensively right now. There is no discussion about how to improve the team’s performance that should be centred around giving Bargnani more looks in the post or expanding DeRozan’s role, etc.

Like Tim said, defence and rebounding need work. End of story.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

" There is no discussion about how to improve the team’s performance that should be centred around giving Bargnani more looks in the post"

Yo are too ultimative in your statements, there IS a point in doing that, if you see there is a pattern of Raptors loosing when Bosh has too many touches. Moreover Bosh is not a"machine" that has been built on a specification and varying the offense will make more opposing players into fouls trouble and, at the same time, keep Bosh with a fresher mind for a game closing moments and can help keeping him healthy and ready to go for later months of the season where, historically, his contribution starts to fade…

by renato on Nov 13, 2009 3:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My whole point is that looking at ways to improve the offence is a waste of time when you are already the best offence in the NBA. The team has to improve defensively. Period.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 13, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re looking at the stats, rather than the game. Bosh gets more touches when the team is struggling offensively. It’’s not that him scoring prevents others from doing the same.

It reminds me of Isiah Thomas talking about the same thing. He had the same stat against him, that when he scored, the Pistons lost. In his own words: “If I’m scoring, you know were in trouble.”

by Tim W. on Nov 13, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

point taken, but that is just a page of the book, not the whole story

by renato on Nov 13, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sure where you are getting this, when he posts (usually a smaller player) he is fauled almost every time. You can turn the statement around: if they were giving him the ball more when he posts, he would draw more fouls.
He does not draw fouls when he shoots from the outside just because if he is guarded by a big they get beaten so badly they are not getting close enough (or high enough) to foul him

by renato on Nov 13, 2009 3:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, when Bargnani posts, he doesn’t draw many fouls, no matter who is guarding him. The reason is because he doesn’t initiate the contact, like Bosh does. He tends to avoid it, trying to score rather than draw the foul. You’re trying to turn him into a player he is not. It’s kind of like all those GM’s who drafted big guards who could dribble, hoping to turn them into PG’s (or drafting players like Ben Gordon, who is the size of a PG, hoping he can become one). It’s incredibly difficult to change a player, and it usually takes years and years, and usually isn’t even successful.

by Tim W. on Nov 13, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where did that comment come from

Good recap.
DeRozan came out motivated and Amir’s work in the fourth won us the game.

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 8:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rose Coloured Glasses

I have to believe that is a joke. We have been pretty even keel with Bosh. We don’t believe his play has warranted a max deal yet, but we have also been highly commendable of his terrific start. Without him this team would be lost at this point.

I’d love to hear your version of last night’s events.

It’s easy to criticize when you don’t have any substance to back it up. Maybe you do….and if so we are all ears.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Nov 12, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

That had to be a joke from one of the “he scores 20 ppg so he must be good” crowd.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even keel?

Laughable. Please direct me to where you have called out Bosh for being the stat whore he is and for the pathetic defense he plays, i would love to read it.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree.

I also don’t see any facts backing that up.

I am sure if you took the time to look back over the articles we have written about Bosh you will see that we are not proponents of just handing him a max deal.

Before I forget, welcome to RHQ!!

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Nov 12, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good to be here

My disagreements are not meant to attack Bosh or the service that you guys provide. I will take the time to review what you guys have written about Bosh.

My concern is the scorn that is heaped upon Andrea for his defense (which has improved and will get better still). How many people here blamed Andrea for the OR’s against the Spurs? Like i have mentioned he gave up 1 and yet i’m sure there are many here that blamed him for the majority of them. Criticize if its true but don’t lie or create revisionist history to suit whatever narrative you have in your head.

Andrea was taken out because he had 5 fouls, not because of a defensive liability like the post-game concludes. This is the revisionist history i’m talking about.

If you guys are going to demand that Andrea can’t make 1 mistake on the defensive side and let the other players escape criticism than you guys will lose your credibility.

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bargnani and Johnson

Bargnani couldn’t guard playes from Sisters of Mercy. To start the game Taj Gibson lit up Bargnani like a Xmas tree on Dec 25th.

Last night was Johnson’s best game as a Raptor on the defensive side of the ball. I saw him come into numerous games with the Pistons the last two years and have that same effect.

No doubt that Triano will and should play Evans once he returns. So the question regarding Johnson is: Will Evans take up all of Johnson’s minutes, or will Triano find a way to give both of them 15-20 minutes a game when Evans returns?

Having both Evans and Johnson on the court together would be interesting from a defensive and rebounding aspect but I am not sure that from the offensive side of the ball that will work.

Stay tuned

by Buddahfan on Nov 12, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think Johnson has some upside defensively. Triano and his staff just need to figure out how to get it out of him on a consistent basis, so he can play more minutes… You probably won’t see Evans and Johnson on the floor together though (unless they style Johnson as a SF).

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

and he also let up Bosh but we won’t tell anyone about that will we.

Let me ask, what did you think when Gibson took bosh on the low post and scored an easy layup while Bosh just stood there? Did you have the same feeling for Bosh that you had for Andrea?

by even flow on Nov 12, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've only watched the first half on the pvr so far

I had to chuckle at times seeing the raptors playing 5 on 2 in the paint and leaving 3 shooting options for the bulls on the perimeter – and still giving up the board or tip back. This team just needs to stay with their men. They were playing pretty hard so to execute that poorly is crazy.

Can’t wait to get home from work tonight and see part two!

by axl t on Nov 12, 2009 9:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Question for the audience, is Jack doing anything to warrant his PT ahead of Belinelli? Marco could part time bring the ball up and he seems to be better as a distributor and as a creator for others, maybe their roles should/could be swapped. Andrea’s play seems to have regressed from last year and even from the beginning of the year, and on top of that he seems to be in a shooting slump at the moment. Let’s hope he ( and Turk) are just a little slower in adjusting to whatever equilibrium they are trying to establish (or maybe to find).

On a side note I would like to remind all the “quick gunners” on this site, this team has so far performed better that they had anticipated as the general consensus among this site authors seemed to be a 2-8 or 2-10 start. With all the flaws this team has they seem to be way better than a 2-8 or 2-10 team and they are cruising trough a tough initial schedule

by renato on Nov 12, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jack looked terrible last night. I’d like to see him really pick it up over the next few weeks. Probably a bit too early to write him off.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not writing him off, but it looks like MArco is being asked to prove something while Jack is given the opportunity to go, maybe Marco was the one JT wrote off?

by renato on Nov 12, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For now, I think part of the problem with Jack is giving him Carte Blanche to shoot right now. He’s not that good of an offensive player, even though the Raptors seem to think he is. For now, I’d rather have Belinelli attempting more of Jack’s shots, but until Triano stops this silly “I must have two starters at any two points in the game” nonsense, I’m not sure what we’ll see from the second unit except more Jack runners and ill advised shots.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 12, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even so, I guess Marco has proven hr can do that as well, pls do not ell me Jack has proven to be a better defender. On the O, at the moment Marco seems to be a more valuable contributor and the one with more upside

by renato on Nov 12, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gotta be D

Sorry Renato but D is the only reason I can think of. As many have noticed the Raps’ O is doing great, so I guess the logic is that Jack brings more of what is needed (D) than Marco, who brings more of something we already have a lot of (O).

by benjibopper on Nov 12, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if Jack is that much better on the defensive side. Marco has shown an ability to stay with a shooter fairly well. I only question his ability to fight through screens at times, but I don’t think Jack is all that better at fighting through screens.

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Nov 12, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re-orienting the Raptors

Honestly I was thinking this BEFORE last night’s game, but do you think the Raps would be more successful this season if they emphasized making Demar DeRozan a focal point of the offense. Talent wise this team should win a lot of games, but I’m starting to appreciate that guard (especially at the 2 and 3) focused teams seem to hold up well regardless of their “big” talent. Think about MIami. Really is Miami comparable talent wise to the Raptors? Even Chicago only has reasonably talented “bigs” and yet they both teams are doing a good job so far competing. Imagine how effective the Raptors would be if they too were guard oriented. Some of you will respond to this by mentioning San Antonio or Boston, but I argue that they are considered elite because of Ginobli and Pierce respectively. What moves them into a different stratosphere is that their bigs are way more talented than most teams they face. I would say the Raptors are doing themselves a disservice by orienting their offense around their “bigs” instead of trying to be more guard oriented. Until this year, the talent wasn’t there, but now that it might be, the team can take major steps in the right direction by emphasizing the right pieces.

The way the game is officiated, in part due to the increased entertainment value of good guard play, suggests that the elite teams will always by default be the ones who “feature” their guards in their game strategy.

by HQ Interloper on Nov 12, 2009 10:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like the approach with DeRozan so far, but agree that this team needs a lot more from the guards given the way the game is officiated.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This probably warrants a whole blog post.

The one thing I didn’t touch on was DeMar’s play last night. He’s such a huge X Factor. Even if he doesn’t score a lot, if he can defend and rebound like he did last night, it gives this team a MAJOR boost.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Nov 12, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bosh

If people can’t appreciate Bosh’s #s now, they’ll never be able to. I don’t get fans who seemingly always want to run the best player in this city out of town.

28.9 PPG, 11.5 Rs, 14.3 FTAs and a 50.8 FG% is simply sick.

No other PF/C is close:

Dirk: 26.5 PPG, 8.9 Rs, 9.4 FTAs, 42.7 FG%
KG: 13.4 PPG, 7.8 Rs, 2.0 FTAs, 49.1 FG%
Chris Kaman: 21.7 PPG, 9.6 Rs, 5.3 FTAs, 53.3 FG%
Dwight Howard: 18.4 PPG, 10.6 R, 9.6 FTA, 64.7 FG%

I know it’s really early, and yes there are defensive issues, but if you guys can’t appreciate this top 3 player type numbers which has never existed in Toronto EVER! Then get off the wagon. Leave this forum or any forum for that matter. Don’t be a fan, cause I don’t want to be associated with you, and go be a Leaf fan or better yet go be a Lakers fan and never come back.

/end rant

by Ustation on Nov 12, 2009 10:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

(Stands up and applauds!)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Sure, Bosh’s 1-on-1 defence could use some work — but at least he’s cleaning up the glass, and his offence is elite at this point.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To me it’s like when the first Caveman discovered how to create fire, and some other jerk comes by and says “ohh.. I dunno.. it’s not as bright as the sun and it’s too easy to put out” and then proceeds to piss on the fire.

by Ustation on Nov 12, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

best. analogy. ever.

by benjibopper on Nov 12, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dying

Completely agree…and laughing out loud here at work.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Nov 12, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We do tend to run stars out of town, don’t we? Can’t live with em, can’t live without em.

The real point to be taken out of history is that it’s time for the other Raps to step up their games. After we’ve blamed the star for our losing ways and shipped him out of town, we then realize how bad the team around him actually was.

We don’t need to sign any more friends of Bosh. We need real basketball players.

by bigweeze on Nov 12, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re Bosh and Bargnani

This is a TEAM, dependent on 12 players contributing, game by game. Nobody is going to perform to the top of their ability every game, Bosh excluded for at least 8 games, has excelled in each game, the only one, who has.

The TEAM still is, and will be for some time a Work in Process on defense and offense, as the coaching staff gets their message across, and the players accept it, and learn to play together as a TEAM.

While Bargnani continues his education on how to bring his unique skill set to the Center position I will glady take his avg 19/20 ppg and 6/7 rpg contribution, to the TEAM..

by Johnn19 on Nov 12, 2009 11:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

A Perfect Example

This game was a perfect example of the importance of playing very tough and good defense in the 4th quarter.

by Buddahfan on Nov 12, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

bargnani bashing

The Bargs bashing has been a little out of control.You complain that he stands outside the 3 point line and chucks shots all day but every time he gets good post position he never gets the ball.so what do you expect him to do?I will also say bosh is a glorified Zack Randolph and while bosh put up good numbers against the grizz he did horrid on defense on Randolph but didn’t hear a peep outa you guys about it.As far as his rebounding goes i don’t think he is hopeless on the boards because if you watch he differs a lot to bosh and almost never gets the easy boards.he also is a better shot blocker than bosh. with all this said i don’t think him and bosh can co exist because its like building a team around Al Harrington and Zack Randolph

by tfulks23 on Nov 12, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Feeling half full

Just a few observations
- Although we stifled Chicago in the second half, they sure looked like they ran out of gas. Agree Triano’s half-time message woke some people up.
- Tired or not, that was the best defence we’ve played all year. A glimmer of hope.
- A lot of criticism was leveled early at Jose, but those with cooler heads knew it would come around. He will never be a defensive stopper – very few PG’s are capable of shutting down their counterparts.
- Although I am confident that Jarrett Jack will eventually be that defensive-minded back-up PG, he has yet to deliver. Anyone questioning who our starting PG should be are wasting (cyber)space.
- Jay Triano has been handling the development of DeRozan extremely well. With the roster we have, at this point of season, there is absolutely no need to rush his development. By season’s end he will have earned more playing time and touches.
- Amir Johnson deserves a chance to succeed or fail. Except for odd matchup, play him before Rasho(who’s skills have diminished but still is a bargain for the $$$).
- Without playing a single regular season game, Reggie Evans has become my favourite Raptor.
- Albeit it is only 8 games in, but Chris Bosh has made me do a complete 180 regarding whether he is a max money player. Can’t name 3 other players playing more inspired ball them him. I don’t see him whining about non-calls anymore.
- Antoine Wright’s addition will pay as many dividends as Hedo Turkoglu’s.
- I don’t know where Sonny Weems fits in but he deserves some burn.
- I fully accept current Bargnani’s defensive limitations. He will grow into an above average defender and there is too much positives from his current game to dwell on this one aspect. I am willing to wait on him because the rewards will be fruitfull.
This team is currently 4 and 4 against tough competition and has yet to reach its stride on both offence and defence. We have seen good and we have seen bad, probably split about 50/50. Two players who stood out in preseason, Evans and Weems, have yet to contribute anything.
I feel better about this team now than I did two weeks ago.

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 12:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, we need more Weems

by bigweeze on Nov 12, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some great points

Especially this one:

-Antoine Wright’s addition will pay as many dividends as Hedo Turkoglu’s.

I completely agree. Hedo played last night like he couldn’t wait to get off the court and have a beer.

by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Nov 12, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kinda makes you think though...

The reality that Wright probably will pay as many dividends (or more) than Hedo. Scary.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No thats not scary

Hedo will fill his role quite nicely, I do not mean for that comment yto be a knock against Hedo. I just like what I see from Wright. Dallas game was a stinker, no-one feels worse than himself, but I think he is a smart player who knows how to play the game.

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did we release Douby? if this is true, is BC up to something?

by Member29 on Nov 12, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rant

You know, postings are pretty upbeat today, are they not? Not bad for a game where we played horrible basketball for 3 and a half quarters.
F and H, and my forgiveness, DQ you all know you have deserved earned the best Raptor’s following out there. Your readers are both thoughtfull and knowledgeable with their postingsand the conversations in the comments are the best going.
And when the Raps lose………………KABOOM!
Granted, they were two stinkers laid in Texas(btw Spurs sans Parker and Duncan beat the Mavs last night) but the venom spewed by Raptors faithfull borders on insanity.
 
Want to take this opportunity to remind everyone that the Toronto Raptors won 33 games last year. This team has managed 4 wins based on the individual offensive skills, for the most part, alone. Players are getting to know each other tendencies better, and although it’s not showing now, I have faith that our defence will improve as the season progresses. Couple that in with our potent offence gaining more confidence and I really do see better things on the horizon.

 Am bracing myself for this upcoming roadtrip because I, the most optimistic fan out there, think it might get rough. Just want to remind everyone to look at their preseason’s predictions for the month of November. The schedule hasn’t changed. If this team is sniffing @ 500 then this team has done better than expected.
Oh yeayh, with the Jekyll and Hyde tendencies of this team, there might well be another stinker or two coming up…..don’t worry, better days are coming..

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 8:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

re Stinkers

Stinkers are not the exclusive property of Toronto Raptors, at 4-4 with a new team, defensive system, and coaching staff , struggling for consistency.

How would you like to be a Knicks, Nets, or New Orleans (who just had their coach fired) FAN?

Or Dallas who beat Rap’s soundly, after losing to New Orleans, who Rap’s beat, and then going into San Antonio and losing by 9 to the Spurs, who had beaten the Rap’s by 6 pts, with no Parker or Duncan for either game.

The NBA, where amazing happens. There are no supposed to win, easy win, expect to win games in the NBA. Any team, on any given night can win, maybe except the Knicks or Nets.

by Johnn19 on Nov 12, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the issue is the way they have lost. They’re the worst team in the league defensively, and on pace to set a record for worst defence of all time. They’re not rebounding or defending the perimeter.

Even the wins haven’t made me terribly excited. They caught a Cleveland team struggling out of the gate. New Orleans and Detroit are whatever. And a Chicago team that is horrible on offence dropped 60 points on the Raps in the first half.

I’d like to think better days are ahead as well, if they can just get the defence up to middle of the pack status.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Apologies Defensive Stance

Meant DS – (funny brought my kids to DQ for dessert, 1/2 price cakes)

by Tinmann on Nov 12, 2009 8:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Haha

I had a good laugh when I read that. My boys love DQ as well :)

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bosh & Bargs -- What's Up

.
Howland,
I’ll acknowledge that Andrea hasn’t upped his defensive game enough, but I also think CB has a long way to go before he can boast "defensive specialist". And yes AB did look lethargic in the early stages of the Bulls game. Part of me wonders if not getting a shot until 4:32 left in the 1st quarter might have something to do with it. Part of me also wonders if the mindset has become "AB is a 2nd half shooter" as Leo alluded to (I believe), hence, let’s just wait until then before we engage him. What would really concern me, is if this attitude started to permeate Bargnani’s thoughts as well.

I think Bosh is playing great, but there are times when I get frustrated by his inability to look to another scorer (like Andrea), when he’s near the basket and being surrounded. I don’t know the stats, but I’d guess 9 out of 10 times he’s going to the net – damn the alternative. He’s a great player, just not worth a Lebron or Wade max in my opinion. And for the simple reason he needs to become a leader not just by scoring, but by directing this Raptor team to reach that level we dream about … as a team. That’s a real MVP.

.
[ "He (Andrea) HATES contact. Even when he is out on the perimeter and uses the pump fake he doesn’t use it to create contact."]
As to above quote, I have to disagree completely. If anything, it’s those pump fakes of his – sometimes repeated twice – that look to me, to be an attempt to generate contact.

.
I know that Bosh is a better player than Bargs – you’d be hard pressed to get a sane opinion that says otherwise. But shouldn’t that be a given for someone who envisions himself a 22 million dollar a year Baller?

I think part of the reason some fans have been favouring Bargs, is the simple fact that he’s signed. Bosh — we all get the feeling he’s going — and how does that play out with the whole team concept we know is needed to get us heading upward. Calling oneself an MVP candidate, and expecting a Max contract (which he’ll get somewhere), just makes Rap fans see themselves heading for a brick wall. Either the airbags work, or the lawsuit (a trade return) makes it more bearable.

RapthoseLeafs

by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 12, 2009 9:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bosh Leaving?

Actually, I don’t get the feeling Bosh is leaving and I don’t understand why anyone else does. Maybe you read too many American sports websites, or perhaps you’re just one of the many insecure Raptor fans that always think the sky is falling.

And there’s a big difference between drawing contact n the perimeter and doing it in the paint. As I said above somewhere, he doesn’t draw many fouls on his postups like Bosh does. Bosh drew fouls at a high rate from day one. Bargnani never has.

by Tim W. on Nov 12, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Bosh leaves, he’d be the first high-profile free agent to jump teams since Shaq went from Orlando to Los Angeles, correct?

I think if he goes anywhere, it would be Miami, where the lack of state taxes might compensate for the money he leaves on the table in Toronto. But yeah, unless this team continues their incompetence on defence and fails to challenge for a playoff spot, I don’t see him shunning the Raps.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Nov 12, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bosh & Bargs -- What's Up

.
[" ….. Bosh — we all get the feeling he’s going …. blah blah blah …" ]

Let me rephrase that, as you’re right … it’s too inclusive.

" …. Bosh — there are a number of us who feel he’s going …. "

Maybe we’re cynical …. or maybe we just feel he’s worth only 17 – 18 million a year. Or maybe we think the Teachers — sorry gang — prefer no extra taxes. 5 million less salary (22-17 mil) x 2 (the tax is the 2 part), means 10 more million is out of the bottom line.

Or maybe I’ve been following the Leafs too long.

.

by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 13, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I can guarantee one thing, and that’s that the `Teachers’ will not prevent Bosh from re-signing with the Raptors. Not only would they not meddle in that, but re-signing Bosh to the max won’t put the Raptors over the luxury tax. Not sure where you’re getting your information.

And me, I don’t even like hockey.

by Tim W. on Nov 13, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you meant ….. in the luxury tax – as opposed to over. And I meant “ownership” in respect to Teachers – those Accountants who affect more basketball decisions then one would think. Like BC’s guy for instance.

But you’re right …….. I really don’t know if it will put them be in that tax spot. Just like I don’t know for Year 2. Or Year 3 of his contract. Or 4 ….

Crystal Ball or not, 5 million more will statistically increase the odds for a luxury tax happening.

At least I think so. I know one thing …………… I can now answer that question I had at University – “Why the f#@k am I taking Stats.”

.

by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 13, 2009 2:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I knew you meant the owners, and, as I said, re-signing Bosh to the max won’t put them over the tax threshold. It won’t be close, as far as I can tell.

by Tim W. on Nov 13, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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