The X Factor Report – Andrea Bargnani
Sixth?
At a base level, it’s hard to imagine the team adding Jermaine O’Neal and not making a jump in the standings…especially considering that Toronto basically fell into the sixth seed last year with their dismal finish.
But admittedly questions such as JO’s health and ability to play with Bosh do surround the Raptors, not to mention the potential improvement of a number of Eastern Conference clubs like Philly, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Miami; yes, perhaps the sixth seed makes sense.
So how then does Toronto get over the hump of the first playoff round and perhaps higher up in the standings?
Well let’s answer that question by starting with a few assumptions:
-That Bosh puts up nearly 20 and 10 a game once more and plays at least 75 games.
-That JO stays healthy and plays at least 70 games, averaging about 16 points, 10 boards and two blocks a game.
-That Calderon can handle the full 82 game season with only minor nicks and scrapes and averages about 12 points and 10 assists.
After those three, things are pretty wide open.
If those assumptions hold true, the Raptors will again be a very competitive group. But it’s the play of the players around Bosh, Calderon and O’Neal that will go a long way in determining if the Raptors end up in sixth or rise to the top of the conference.
And I think the one player from this supporting cast that needs to rise up out of the ashes more than anyone else, is Andrea Bargnani.
It’s hard to believe that only a year ago, Raptors’ fans were praising the drafting of Andrea Bargnani, who fresh off a runner-up to rookie of the year season, seemed poised to explode on the league in his second season.
We all know how things turned out.
To put things really in perspective, we take a look at Dave Berri’s Wages of Wins journal. In an article after the Jermaine O’Neal trade, Berri stated that:
"In addition to being the runner-up MOP, Bargnani was also the L2P (Least Productive Player) of 2007-08. Bargnani - in only 1,861 minutes - produced a (-5.7) wins. Had the Raptors replaced Bargnani with a power forward that produced zero wins, Toronto could have expected to win nearly 54 games this past season."
Reading through the article you see how Berri came up with the statistical basis for his 54 win figure and while Toronto obviously didn’t simply replace one player with the other, the previous paragraph gives you a pretty good idea of just how bad Bargs was last season.
So can this year be different?
We’ve heard reports of a better-conditioned Andrea, one that has been working out in Vegas with specialists, and one that has been attending various "big-man" oriented camps.
But now with JO on board, does Toronto really need him to be that posting up style big man?
It’s an interesting question.
When Bargs was drafted, Bryan Colangelo had every intention of eventually making Andrea into Toronto’s future 5 man; one that could take opponents inside and out, much like Dallas’ Dirk Nowitzki. However Andrea never seemed comfortable in that position through his first two years. His man-to-man defence improved down low, yes, but suddenly last season the very skills that made him so dangerous in his first year, started to regress. Here was a player drafted for his shooting ability and last season he shot a clunky 39 per cent from the field.
39 per cent?
That number was the lowest for any Raptor that played more than 12 minutes a game, and while he did shoot a respectable 35 per cent from beyond the arc, it just looked for most of the season like something was off.
So was he simply playing out of position and now with the arrival of O’Neal, his shooting touch and offensive game will return?
I wish it were that simple.
Because even if Andrea averaged 15 and six next year (he averaged 10 and 3.7 last year and nearly 12 and 4 his rookie year) it would be a huge boost for Toronto. With two powerful low-post options, a player like Bargs who could both draw out defenders and take advantage of mismatches down low, would make for a nightmare third option.
However based on what we saw last year from Il Mago, this scenario seems like a dream one right now and it’s going to be very important that Sam Mitchell makes like a UPS worker and "handles the Bargnani situation with care."
Because let’s face it, this is no Rafael Araujo we’re talking about here. Andrea has plenty of talent and has shown in flashes that he could be a great player in the league.
So my hope is that Mitchell takes a "baby steps" approach with Andrea. That means no random decisions out of training camp to start him at the 3. And it also means using Bargs more effectively based on match-ups and game situations. With O’Neal now as the legit #2 player, Toronto doesn’t need Bargs to come in and put up 20 points a game for the team to win. Now, he should be feeling a lot less pressure in that sense and be able to let the game come to him. Last year we witnessed a player who was rushing his offence, and seemingly making his mind up before making his move with the ball. This resulted in who knows how many traveling calls and a number of turnovers that just didn’t need to happen.
So this year, let’s hope he gets back to the basics, starting with his shooting touch.
If the shots start going down in whatever minutes he plays, this should help his entire game. We saw in Toronto’s playoff series against the Nets, that when Andrea was scoring from outside, suddenly his inside game started to wake up too.
And really, with JO manning the paint now, Andrea just needs to score, the defense and rebounding can come with time. If "the Magician" can be that outside assassin, it not only makes things easier inside for Toronto’s twin towers, it also changes the game for the rest of the Raptors. Suddenly teams are running out to guard Andrea leaving even more deadly long range bombers like Parker and Kapono wide open. And suddenly teams are thinking about putting their bigs up close to him on the perimeter so he can’t shoot, which should allow him to use his superior speed to get into the paint.
Which brings me to my next point – conditioning.
Last season there were rumours that Andrea wasn’t exactly Michael Phelps when he showed up to camp. However with what sounds so far like a successful off-season of training, hopefully that’s not the case this year and from Day 1 of the season, Andrea is ready to go.
Because while I’ve said that on the court there should be less pressure for him, pressure does still exist in a slightly different sense.
It’s the pressure of a former number one overall pick going into his third and pivotal season, looking to try and justify his lofty selection.
It’s not Adam Morrison pressure, but it’s pretty close. For Bargs’ development as an NBA player, he really needs a re-injection of confidence and a good third season will go a long ways towards that.
And we’re not just talking about Bargs’ career here.
With his rookie contract coming soon to a close, the Raptors need to know just what they have in Andrea in order to plan for the team’s future, and a successful third season would go a long ways in terms of some financial forecasting. Toronto will almost certainly pick up the "team option" on his deal for the 2009-10 season but after that? Well the following season is of course when Bosh, O’Neal, Kapono and others have their contracts expire and it would be nice to know by then if Andrea can be a central part of the rebuilding plan.
But we won’t get ahead of ourselves just yet.
This upcoming season holds so much promise and if Andrea can be the difference maker that I think he could be, we as Toronto Raptors’ fans could be in for the best season in franchise history.
FRANCHISE
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The first installment of the X-Factor series? Looks like October can`t come come soon enough.
by Acie on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Excellent writeup especially how replacing Bargs can get us to 54 wins last season :D
Could you add: http://snaptopic.com/sports/nba/toronto-raptors to your list of links on the right please?
Thanks.
by Raptors News on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I couldn't agree more about the importance of Bargnani's development but I also think we need to start Kapono at the three and give him a chance to show why Colangelo signed him the first place. He should get better looks with CB4 and O'Neal working down low. Barg's off the bench can then really mix it up like you say. If both Barg's and Kapono are clicking, then we've got somethin' goin' on!
by Ian Johnson on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
The opinions of Andrea go from one extreme to the other and will surely be the topic of many a conversations in the near future.
My thoughts on him are known and I've never waivored but I'll admit that this is a make or break year for the big guy.
by Tinman on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed - big year for andrea. Reading this though has me starting to think about next year, can't wait. I think too that bargnani should come off the bench and be eased back into things but who knows, maybe he won't need easing after the offseason? Id like to see him average the 15 and 6 you talked about franchise but more than anything, toronto just needs to see continued development in various areas aka no more regression.
by fromlongrange on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I’ve long been a Smitch supporter in my comments on this site and this is the year I hope to be proven right. There have often been criticisms of Smitch’s ability to be creative when conjuring up offensive and defensive schemes. The argument I have always made is that the major factor in the decision making process for Smitch and his staff was the talent level available. That is to say, if your team’s best talent is at Power Forward (Bosh) and Point Guard (Ford and Calderon) then your best option is a steady diet of pick and roll. However, this season with the addition of O’Niel, the landscape has changed and that argument will no longer hold water.
This season, we should see (and Smitch has indicated we will) more inclusion of a double post or High-Low post offense to best utilize this team’s strengths, namely Bosh and O’Niel. It will be interesting to see how Bargs falls into this new scheme. I believe (somewhere deep inside) he has the talent and physical tools to be an excellent option at the high post. He has the size, passing ability and mobility to really carve up a defence from this position. Most importantly is his passing ability. We’ve seen glimpses of brilliant post-to-post passing skills between Bargs and Bosh in the past. Yes Franchise, you are absolutely right, Bargs has to regain his shooting touch to be successful in this league. But I don’t think he has, at this time in his career, developed strong enough ball handling skills to purely attack from beyond the three point line. Also, he has yet to show an inkling of ability as a post up threat. So for my two cents, he should either be positioned in the offence as a pressure releasing three point threat or a worked into a three man High-Low post rotation with O’Niel and Bosh. I’ll then cross my fingers and hold my breath come opening night hoping he has improved over the summer…
by MAS on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
On another topic… I would love to hear people’s thoughts on the pending Zack Randolph trade to Memphis. I just can’t figure this out?!?!? They trade away Gasol, a much more talented player who I believe makes LESS money (and is not a complete HUMP like Randolph) in a fire sale for absolutely nothing, with their only explanation being the need to cut salary. Then in the offseason go after a malcontent, immature, ignoramus making MORE money with less skills!!!??!? Can anyone understand this? I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but that Gasol trade stunk of fish from the get-go! He just happens to end up on the freaking Lakers and makes Kobe happy, gets to the finals and ratings go through the roof… I hope I’m wrong on this one… I can’t believe we didn’t hear more people question this seriously.
Also, for how many more seasons do we have to hear about Allan Houston trying to make a comeback? Seriously this is just sad now! This guy hasn’t played in the league since 04-05 yet for the last three years he keeps showing up to camps trying to make a comeback and then shuts it down halfway through camp. I just don’t get this…
by MAS on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
To paraphrase many a priest "David Stern moves in mysterious ways". I highly doubt there was an actual conspiracy in the Gasol trade. It was more like the Carter trade where the new GM was incompetent and stuck in an impossible situation where his star wanted to be traded to a contender and the NBA rules prevented him from getting anything of use in return (unless you count getting odom back as something of use, by Odom I just mean he was the only player whose salary was close to Gasols that the Lakers would be willing to trade and whose name would be big enough to calm some nerves in Memphis). As much as Stern likes to pretend that the rules he implements are better for the game, they sometimes have an opposite effect and he needs to make changes but then he would need to admit he was wrong and I have yet to see any sign that he can be that altruistic.
It is intersting that Bargs and Oneal now are on the same team. I have been a little hesitant to jump on the "we have Oneal so here comes the 2nd round of the playoffs" bandwagon as his injury history and the lack of depth now on the Raptors combined with Bargs regression scares the crap out of me. I hope my fears are unwarranted and that Bargs takes a step forward to at least his rookie year production and Oneal plays 70 games. If (big if) those things happen and calderon doesnt break down and Bosh also stays healthy then maybe they can take a step forward.
by McGateway on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I don't understand the questions about JO and CB4 meshing. They both have good inside-out games, and should play very nicely off each other.
MAS - The Raps could've done high-low post with CB4 and Bargs last year...doubtful why they would now do it when they already had two excellent players for that.
And Bargs coming off the bench will actually get him more attention. He is going to be one of the focal points of the 2nd-unit, and he won't actually have that much 'room'. He likely will be paired with JO or CB4 at some point, but he was paired with CB4 last year and did squat.
The difference is in Barg's head: if he comes in hungry, competitive, and, yes, angry, then that will translate his remarkable skill set to the useful (if not remarkable) side of the X-factor. If he remains indifferent, then he will remain a detriment to the team...sucking up minutes to figure out he is still a bust.
by JayElZee on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I agree that Bargnani is a potentially crucial part of the Raptors' offence. My question is whether his shot needs to be adjusted. It seemed to me last year that Barg's shot was way too flat -- no arc at all. Without a decent arc, the area in which the ball can drop in the basket is smaller (and the ball is also less likely to get a bounce off the rim that might go in). So unless he increases the arc in his shot, I am very doubtful that he can become a high percentage shooter. Was his shot different in his first year? Is it just me who is worried about his arc? I can't believe that the coaches don't know this.
by Londonfan on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I wouldn't put the raptors ahead of boston, detroit, cleaveland and orlando. I would put raptor on the top of group that will look to over take the four club above if one of them fall apart. Teams like toronto, washington and philly could get a higher rank if something went wrong in one of the top 4 teams. Toronto should get the 5th or at least the 6th seed, and the question is can toronto beat the 4th seed or 3rd seed which are orlando or cleaveland.
By the way, is anybody from the west coast? I recently moved there from ottawa and I want to know if the score or roger's sportnet pacific shows the raptors games.
by JYD on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
last night i felt i discovered something about andrea.do you good people mind if i toss in a super long post about bargnani and his calliper results?
hope those words don't induce violent gagging! i'll try to be as succinct as possible.
only writing this because i'm assuming no one's ever tossed in detailed info of what happens during the test and what specifically they are testing for.
last night i watched BBC Supernatural Science: Physical Feats. during the section on Qi/ Chi and what is mind over matter they were talking about athletes, focus and brain patterns.
what i imagine now for the calliper is that a component they would study are brain patterns as players go thru various basketball movements in a, somehow, simulated high pressure situation.
in the tv show, they were explaining that when marksmen and karate dudes are going about their preparatory action (ie. for taking a shot or breaking bricks) the brain was registering beta rhythm. beta is attributed to mindfulness or thinking thru an action. when both went to perform the action the brain patterns switched to alpha rhythm. alpha is attributed to clear focus. once in alpha you could freely go about doing the action you have trained to do.
now bosh did not too good at the calliper test and bargnani did crazy well right?
what if bargnani's greatest mental asset is that he's able to switch into alpha rhythm very readily? and that the calliper test is designed to reward that over beta rhythm?
it would explain not only his demeanour on the court but also why he did crazy well on that test. because we all know that often he looks "disinterested" or his reaction, time/ effort etc., to recognizing something is off. but as he's also shown, when he's on he can get "phoenix hot" and drop consistent 3's like no ones business.
back to bosh, he's a always comes off as a very strong-minded person. he adds things to his game, he does the little things on the court, he's grown into a leader etc. etc. but in clutch situations, the outcomes haven't been as stellar. what if bosh can't go into alpha rhythm very readily? and he's over-thinking in those situations. again i think the results of the test may have shown this.
now i could toss in a few more observations but i think this post is more than long enough and i'd be interested to know if i'm out in left field with my logic or if the mysteries of bargnani's calliper results have already been elucidated before.
by dileroscoe on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
londonfan - I'm with you on the shot arc, but I highly doubt he spent much time shooting in practice after they moved him to center. From hearing specialists like kapono, steve kerr, even gilbert arenas talk about the volume of shots they put up in practice, I just can't imagine there's enough time in the day for bargs to do the same. He's trying to do it all at once and so every skill is not quite there. I think he's going to be a rock star this year, but that's me assuming he's going to put the work in. Go andrea!!
by axl on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
As Raptor fans we need to let the pesimistic non Raps fans say what they will...But I for one, see the Raptors finish ahead of Orlando and Washington and possible Detroit..which would give them 2nd in the East. Poeple are worried about depth but Boston won the title with little or no Depth, Pierce or Garnett had to be on the court at all times. So we are a way deeper team than we are getting credit for...who did we lose from last year...Ford we have JOse, Delphino ...we have Parker...Rasho we have a 6 time All Star in Jemaine, and we still have Moon and Bargnani whose game I expect to be way better this season than last year and his rookie year. So don't listen to the so called experts, we know what we have here in Toronto and this team will be way better than last years, I expect the Raps to win 50+ games this season...So lets just sit tight for the next few weeks until training camp starts....Raps4Life
by raps4Life on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
bargs was drafted for a reason. this year we will see it.
by adam on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
The only spot the Raps seem to lack depth is at the 2 guard spot.
Most teams will either have one guy who is great that will eat up most of the minutes and a sub who will hardley even be on the court. The raps have that in Bosh and Jose with Roko and Kris backing them up for a few minutes.
We're obviously fine at the center spot with JO and Andrea.
Another option is two decent players at the same spot so you can play whichever guy will give you what you need which we have at the small forward spot with Jamario and Kopono. If we need scoring and shooting we go with JK, if we need athletisism, rebounding and defence we go with Jamario.
At the shooting guard spot all we have is AP. AP is a good player not great by any stretch, if he goes down there is no backup 2 guard on this team. That is where letting go of Delfino could potentially hurt this team. AP will be 33 years old and his productivity will decrease and his injuries will take longer to heal.
With that, the East is really wide open this year and every team has major question marks except for the Celtics and to a lesser degree the Pistons, Magic and Cavs.
The Raps can be great but we could also be bad, however there is absolutely no reason we should not have be able to secure a playoff spot.
by wtf on Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Dileroscoe - Thanks so much for that post, some really interesting info. I think it might even be intriguing to take it one step further. Bosh has at times been saddled in his career by issues surrounding his "clutchness." Perhaps that's why in the end, the pairing of he and Bargs will be so great, and maybe what BC envisioned all along. Bosh will do most of the heavy lifting throughout games but perhaps the ball will be in Andrea's hands when the chips are down.
I agree that his shot was flat last year and that he needs to work on his ball handling but I still think Mitchell could have done a much better job handling his playing time etc. From day one I thought he should be coming off the bench again and all this "starter - benched, starter - benched" stuff couldn't have been good for his development.
As for the Randolph deal...ugh. I don't understand this thought process either, but not just because they dealt a better and cheaper option in Gasol away. If Memphis is looking to rebuild with youth ala Portland, why are they trading FOR Randolph, a player the Blazers jettisoned as quickly as they could so as not to negatively impact their youth movement?
by Franchise on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Dileroscoe, great post, interesting points and subject matter. I have real reservations about putting any value in the results of the calliper test at all. The human mind is a confounding thing that science doesn’t fully comprehend. Therefore, it troubles me that GM’s would allow this to be a huge variable in the decision making process. That being said, if anyone can provide any data that highlights a correlation over time between poor calliper performance and poor performance over a good sized sample of players or vice versa (good calliper performance and good basketball performance) I would be fascinated. If it doesn’t exist… then if there are any Psychology graduate students on this site, here’s a good thesis paper!! LOL
by MAS on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
As for the Memphis/Randolf fiasco… Franchise, great point this guy was excommunicated from Portland because they didn’t even want him in the same State as their young players. I can’t get past this… I argue that with the dubious Gasol trade and the uber-dubious Randolph trade, we have enough to announce a Gate.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Grizzly-Gate:
With the Gasol trade who was helped? Firstly the Lakers. They appeased a malcontent superstar in Kobe Bryant and solidified their chances of reaching the NBA finals. Secondly, and more importantly, the NBA. The league had suffered a decline in ratings, especially in the finals over the last 5 years. This is due to a lack of star power and success in the major metropolis areas and basketball hotbeds: New York (Isaiah Thomas nightmare), Boston, LA and Chicago al struggled this decade. This was also coupled with a small market team like San Antonio repeatedly making it to the Finals. Now, in one Season, you have KG to Boston (finals champs), Gasol to LA (finals) and now you have New York possibly dumping Randolph’s contract (preparing for the Lebron sweepstakes). The latter two instances both involve Memphis, a team that has struggled with success on and off the court since they moved to that backwater burg from Vancouver. Ownership has expressed interest in moving (AGAIN) from Memphis. Is it possible that there is a backroom deal regarding the Randolph and Gasol trades that could see compensation going to Memphis for their help in these one-sided deals? Could it be they are getting financial help from the league? How about first crack at a Seattle franchise when their stadium deal is worked out? Or a league sanctioned move to Las Vegas? Just throwing it out there… Let's face it, ratings determine the amount of money the league gets for television deals, which is in the BILLIONS and by far the leagues most important revenue stream. The league would have much more leverage in negotiating their next TV deal (not sure when it comes up for re-negotiation) if they can say "… over the last few years are ratings have jumped 15%..."
by MAS on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Cool glad it was worthwhile to read.
Do you guys mind if i post another long one? again i'll try to be succinct and clear but my writing typically isn't blessed with those qualities. so bear with me if my language or organization gets a bit obtuse.
IF my connections/ assumptions are valid (and i'm just an animator not some crazy neuroscientist) then i think there's a whole sort of observations you can make and i want to go back the beginning and tell the story as i've seen it play out. i've kept mum on my thoughts about Bargnani for awhile and while my bubble could be completely burst with this alpha thing it's helped crystallize my thoughts on him. it would be really cool if we were able to somehow find out from either the raps or caliper people if we're barking up the right tree.
So from BC's side, i can easily see how he felt the stars were aligned and had to draft him. he's going to the only international team in the nba, he loves international ball, he's got a beta franchise player in Bosh, with the opportunity to compliment him with a uber alpha player in Bargnani, someone that's he's scouted heavily for a long time. And so forth. He had to draft him. We were bringing BC in to be BC and give him free rein to create the ultimate BC team.
MAS, in terms of BC and others using the caliper test I'm all for it. GM's have to have some sort of toolset to offset they're subjective observations with objective data. From the numerous things I've read in physics and philosophy I'm not sure pure objective data actually exists (especially when you go micro) but we can create some pretty good approximations. And I'm sure the caliper people have learnt a few things from the Bargnani case. Remember he was completely off the charts. Otherwise I think they've had pretty positive feedback about their predications.
Now the roadblock, and i'm approaching this is from the purely mental side of the game, I think got in the way of Bargnani's success the most was our surprising success in the beginning and expectations of making another step in challenging for the east.Our success pulled Sam away from Bargnani's development and presented a strain in the second season.
This is unlike Gay in Memphis and LMA & Roy in Portland, whom could endure the first painful season with their head coach on a talent deprived team and be given the confidence and attitude that their day was to come, but they were going to have to work extremely hard at it. IIRC lots of other stars in the league had similar opening experiences in the league.
Instead, Bargnani was put in a situation where he could get away with being deficient on defense and rebounding. His team was enjoying success by him doing the exact same things he was doing previously in FIBA ball. Coupled with lots of compliments on his playoff performance, Bargnani left for the summer extremely confident that he could keep on doing the same things that had gotten him to the NBA. For a young uber alpha player, this was a very dangerous position to put him in.
The unfortunate thing is that BC and especially Sam, didn't confirm and clarify with Andrea that he needed to dramatically reorient his approach to the game that summer in order to succeed the next season and provide him with the tools to do it. And in fairness to Bargnani, who doesn't have the typical disposition of a #1 pick, it would be tough to grapple and implement.
What happened in the second season merely brought all of this to the surface and needed to happen. He needed to be shown that his defense and rebounding were lackluster and because of that he would struggle to be starter in the league. He can't rely on just his offense to make him a starter and accomplish the things he thinks are attainable. If Sam was blessed with the gift of foresight or the scouting instincts of Isiah perhaps he could of drawn the line in the sand earlier in the season and said Bargnani's not ready but he's not experienced enough to have done that. And ultimately as his coach, Sam has done the right things to help Bargnani succeed long term.
It's extremely frustrating that it's occurred like this but it did. But honestly, I feel pretty confident that through the course of the season we're going to see Bargnani show people that he can be a very dangerous and unique player in the league. Now you can paint me a Bargnani apologist and say that he's not deserving of all the excuses but again if he does have this ability to be in alpha pattern more readily than his development and success in the league need to take a unique path and it's fully worth taking the time to develop.
Being the sixth man on this team is a great role for him at this stage. He's not ready to be a starter because as an alpha it will take him longer to develop the need for doing beta things. Quickly thinking about what he needs to do and where he needs to be in order for his team to succeed and be rewarded with alpha scoring opportunities.
Having a coach like Gord Herbert beside him is a smart choice. Someone to relate what Sam wants, translate it for who Bargnani is and what he knows and deliver it. Also, that he can gain the trust of Sam as not being there to dethrone him but to get his wants and needs clearly through to his players.
I have a few more things I could toss in and expand upon but hopefully I said something worthwhile in that huge pool of words.
by dileroscoe on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I can see your point Mas about the NBA benefitting from the Gasol trade in the short term but overall it gives the league a bit of an image issue which was supposed to be addressed by the trading rule changes. Namely, good teams shouldn't be allowed to dump their junk for stars of bad or financially weak teams. In other words, a fire sale. I am shocked that no one has really given Stern a good written pounding for this trade happening in this day in age where trades like that are not suppose to happen. So if we take it one step further from a conspiracy stand point, we would have to include all the media in it as well as even though people talked about the trade being one sided (and now some are suggesting it wasn't as one sided because *trying to suppress laughter* Pau's brother could be legit) but no one has critised the league for what has become an obvious trend, Good/Financially strong teams, dropping crap contracts and little else on bad/financially weak teams. I am not sure when this started but there have been a few good examples (Carter, Iverson, Garnett and Gasol which was the worst of them). Before the rule changes teams could at least raid another team of good young talent but now they are lucky if they get a useful body back never mind a potentially good young player. The fact that no one is saying anything in the media is extremely disturbing. Maybe they are all afraid they will get banned or something.
by McGateway on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
McGateway, I should have included in my post before that I was half joking. But only HALF joking... There probably wasn’t as sinister a plot as the one I outlined before, but… Something stinks with Grizzlies-Gate and I think you have highlighted an important issue and that is the role of the media in this debacle. I found myself asking the same questions the other day when this story was fresh. I surveyed ESPN.com’s basketball site as I find them the go-to source for NBA news but where was the outcry? Where were the obvious questions? For instance "What the hell is Memphis thinking?"
Then I realized, ESPN is a broadcaster of the NBA! They are a major partner in the current broadcast rights deal with the NBA (along with Turner Broadcast corp., and ABC). So in my fictitious charges of conspiracy I’m indicting ESPN and its subsidiaries as well! LOL
The bottom line may be that sports journalists/media and sports organizations share a symbiotic relationship, that is they depend on each other. Its obvious that showing the league, teams, players in a good light are traded for access and sources. That is why unaffiliated websites like this one and the freedom of the internet are so important.
If anything should come of this, McGateway you are correct, the rules and oversight for trades may have to be reviewed.
by MAS on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Very interesting roscoe, or shall I say BC jk.
There are a couple of books out there dealing with roughly similar alpha, beta minds ideas but he refers to them as self 1 and self 2 ( from The Inner Game of Tennis and TIG of Golf).
I have spent time pondering Bargs trials but have kept the noisy caliper test results locked in the basement not really knowing how it comes into play. You have shed some light on the test results and I'll have to give it some time crystalize - thanks.
I've attributed Bargs' problems in year two mostly to the mysteriuos "sophmore slump", the Raps trying to play him in a position other than his natural PF spot and to a large extent to the strengthening program that he did last summer. His muscle shape and structure looked completely different in year two and I believe he struggled to adjust to his new body???? I like simplistic explinations.
by ZoneD on Sep 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Dileroscoe for MVP of this discussion.
Seriously. I enjoyed your thoughts on the Bargnani (the Barnyard). I tend to agree on the differences and pitfalls that ensued from Year one to year two.
On that note I blame both Andrea and Sam. I still can't get over the fact that those two apparently wouldn't even talk to each other for a month last year. That's inexcusable.
As an aside, why did we hear that news at the end of the season and not when it was actually happening? Not great reporting out there I suppose.
Oh well. Getting excited.
by sharpy on Sep 10, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Late the game but I'll throw my 2 cents in there.
First off, agree with much that Franchise and various commenters have put up already. Well thought out to be sure.
Axl, great point about the work pure shooters put in, and not having the time for it while working on other things.
It could be that it was only in his second season that he ran into the kind of problems that a rigorous pregame shooting routine would've corrected before they got worse.
Dilroscoe, good contrast of Bosh and Bargani and possible on court examples of their differing scores.
I also had a concern about the vaunted caliper test, that I put to the back of my mind. It was triggered by reading a line about how he was such a cold-blooded late game performer, since he didn't care what others thought about him. Could this type of mentality extend beyond pundits, to include coaches and fellow players. There was a quote from D.Smith's blog where a "source" said that last season Bargnani was particular about what parts of his game he was willing to work on. Could this be the darker, flip side of the high Caliper score, manifesting itself in the form of stubbornly sticking to what he thinks will work?
Either way, having fallen flat on his face probably made him much more receptive to outside help.
I don't think it's the Raptors fault for asking for too additions to his game too soon. They had a goal for Andreas contribution in year 2, and he proved himself unable to meet it. The exact combination of reasons could very well only be known by Andrea himself. I agree completely with Franchise that now its time to take a step back, shore up strengths, and let his protypical big man skills develop at a more natural pace.
Seconding dilroscoe, my coaching x-factor is Gord Herbert, the new bball skills development coach. Hazarding a guess, I would say that he'll be doing more of the basic skill work with Andrea, Ukic and Jawai, that would be a waste for the other Raptors.
One key thing that scouts talk about when evaluating NBA players is how well their strengths translate to the pro game. In most cases, even a good NCAA post player needs to refine, expand or even reign in their repetoire of moves with an eye towards what they can get away with against NBA competition.
This is why I found the fact Andrea had such a hard time pump-faking and driving alarming. This was a key part of his SF-type game in Italy, and without it, he was nothing more then a standstill shooter.
Hopefully the "building on strong fundamentals approach" will yield an Andrea capable of making a more consistent contribution to the team.
by yardly on Sep 10, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
Wow...just some great well-thought out discussions going on on several fronts. First off, great quote here:
The bottom line may be that sports journalists/media and sports organizations share a symbiotic relationship, that is they depend on each other...
Totally agree and that's why you get a buddy-buddy system between coaches and management and media types like Doug Smith. Sometimes it's a good thing as it gives fans an inside look, at others, it keeps the media from being as critical as they should be. Always a tough balance.
However after some of the comments about the whole "rebirthing of major markets," you do have to wonder if Memphis is almost just a puppet regime don’t you? I mean, the whole dealing away Gasol and then trading for Randolph makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe Stern is playing with the ESPN trade machine and looking for ways to reinvigorate some of the league’s traditionally strong teams. If all of a sudden we see Drew Gooden dealt back to Memphis along with Larry Hughes for essentially a bag of cap-clearing pretzels, we’ll DEFINITELY know something is afoot.
Final thoughts on the Bargs topic as tomorrow we’ll be looking at our next X Factor. The Dark Side of Andrea is something I heard whispers of this summer while I was at the ACC for workouts etc. He’s hardly been a great interview candidate and if he is more of a "I’ll do it, but only if it’s my way" type of person, we’ll probably see the results of this early in the season. That means more pull-up 3’s and less inside post-work etc. I still think though that he’s a big key to this team’s success as there are few others in the league with his combination of size, quickness and shooting ability. If he can get his offensive game going again, then maybe the need for him to be a shot blocker and low-post defender won’t be so great. Bosh and O’Neal can focus on that side of things more and let Andrea pick up the scoring slack.
by Franchise on Sep 10, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
haha, thanks Sharpy.
gotta say it's so refreshing to about Bargnani without people wanting to bite your head off, make you feel dumb or show you how bad his numbers are.
wish i had more time to talk on this but Algonquin calls.
look forward to coming home to full slate of new articles HQ. helps make the wait less painful.
by dileroscoe on Sep 10, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
great posts all around - love this site for the killer comments.
i was just getting a bball fix and checking what was on raptorsTV - the guide has (12:00 am)they have Raptors Game in an Hour - with the Toronto MAPLE LEAFS vs the Indiana Pacers!!!
Sundin has such a sweet jumper!
my 2 cents on Bargs - for what it is worth - remember he got popped in the nose and wore a shield? the media reported that he had his adnoids out. i smashed my nose and had real trouble breathing until i had it fixed. just a thought
by trash on Sep 10, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
I find all of the discussion about AB quite interesting. BUT I feel that he is not going to be the X-factor (assuming Bosh and Jermaine stay healthy) This is not a club that is short on offense. Bosh and Oneal are a great 1-2. kapono can fill it up. Parker is solid from three and Jose has improved his shot. Whether or not Bargs gets 9 ppg, or 15ppg...I don't think that it will make a huge difference. Conversly, having Jose underperform, or constantly be beaten, and Kapono/Parker not perform, those would be deadly. I dont think too many people are making predictions based on Bargs having a great year...or a horrible year. But if Jose/Kapono/Parker fall on their face, there is no one to back them up!
So, I dont think Bargs is the x-factor of the team.
by Scott on Sep 11, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

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