The Legomaster – Bad Building Blocks or a Lack of Pieces?

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT in Feature Stories

BC - Overrated or being examined within too small a time period?

"Bryan Colangelo hasn't done a thing without his daddy there to show him the way. Yeah he turned the Phoenix Suns from a 30-win team to a contender. But he's also the one who turned them into that 30 win team. Past gems include moving fan favourite Dan Majerle and a 1st for a washed up Hot Rod Williams. Don't forget that he initially traded Nash away too. He flipped Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury- nuff said there. He lowballed Joe Johnson and was forced to trade him away. Yeah everyone loved Diaw and the picks at first but now they're trying their hardest to dump Diaw. Imagine the Suns the last 2 years with J.J. He dumped multiple picks to save money- one of those picks amounted to Luol Deng!! Then he spends the money he saved by throwing ridiculous contracts at Quentin Richardson, Boris Diaw and Marcus Banks!! What a complete joke!!

Yeah he's done a great job in TO. Came in with huge cap space (thanks to Rob Babcock ironically) and a 1st overall pick and turned TO into a team that will be lucky to make the 8th spot in the East next year. Would you trade TO's roster right now for Philly's, Atlanta's, Chicago's or Miami's? Unless you’re incredibly biased you do that in a second. These are all teams that have passed/will pass TO on Colangelo's watch.

Please explain how any of the above moves show that Colangelo is a great GM. I think it speaks more to how pathetic the Exec. of the year and COY awards are (yes S. Mitchell I'm talking to you).

Any response Doug?

Bryan Colangelo is as overrated as JP Ricciardi and we all know how that's turned out.

Unkle Zeke"

This was a comment posted to Doug Smith’s blog a few months ago after Toronto’s second straight early playoff exit. One of Doug’s readers had questioned some of Bryan Colangelo’s recent decisions, and Doug had responded explaining the many ways in which BC had turned this franchise around.

Now while I agreed with Mr. Smith in terms of the impact BC has had with regard to changing the team’s culture, chemistry and marketability, I wasn’t quite sold on his take on the various on-court personnel moves. I never quite understood the Joey Graham extension, was questioning the handling of the Andrea Bargnani and TJ Ford situations (although who knows who was really pulling the strings in those cases), and therefore scanned the comment section to see if anyone else out there in blog-land was scratching their head a bit.

Much to my surprise, there were in fact a good number of posts which articulated my feelings and therefore I decided to do the old cut and paste, thinking that at some point I’d want to discuss this issue in more detail this off-season.

With the recent talks on the site, now seems about as good a time as any.

At first glance, I found it tough not to agree with almost all of "Unkle Zeke’s" comment.

Remember, this was prior to any Jermaine O’Neal trades, Elton Brand signings or Josh Childress Greece defections. Put yourself back in your own shoes as of June 1 and think about the Raptors, especially in comparison to squads like the 76ers or Hawks. (Even with the top pick I’m not sure would have wanted to swap places with the Bulls but that’s another story.)

Would you have swapped teams?

Weren’t you somewhat confused about the direction of the club?

I know I was.

When Colangelo came in he preached an up-and-down style and while I thought the whole Phoenix East thing was a bit much, the team was looking to run-and-gun more than in previous years. Players were signed, drafted and traded for to support this plan (Ford, Kapono, Delfino and Bargnani in particular) and yet after less than two seasons, it was painfully obvious that things weren’t quite working as planned.

On top of this, the TJ Ford situation was still looming large, Toronto was obviously suffering from a lack of talent around Chris Bosh, and all of a sudden Andrea was looking like a suspect top pick. You had to ask yourself just what Colangelo was going to do to get this team back to the caliber of play he had surely envisioned upon coming to Toronto.

So I guess my question to everyone now is, have things changed? Is the Jermaine O’Neal trade enough to silence the critics? And furthermore, does Colangelo really deserve the criticism he now finds himself getting?

Almost a month ago Yahoo Sports’ Kelly Dwyer drew his own line in the sand and took the latter position; the position that yes BC has had some blips on his radar, but generally he’s done a great job with what he’s had to work with.

This line of thought could further be backed-up by arguing that Kapono and Bargnani were simply never used correctly, that Ford was given too long a leash, and that bad luck struck in terms of the injury to Garbo. So in that sense, and as many of our readers mentioned recently, the real culprit here could very well be Sam Mitchell couldn’t it?

However before we transfer the blame or start up that discussion, I think it’s worth digging a bit deeper into BC’s past moves. One of our readers on Wednesday made some very interesting observations about the current Toronto make-up that I think are worth repeating:

"I know everyone has drank a lot of the BC Kool-aid in the past (myself included) but is anyone else concerned that BC seems to be a little out of his depth here? I mean there isn't a single significant player on the roster that he has brought in (not including O’Neal whose contributions we won't know til the seasons starts). Calderon is Babcock’s baby, Bosh came from Grunwald, and that really is all that you can rely on with this team. Parker is too hot and cold at times and his best season was his first. Garbajosa got hurt (which you can't blame BC for), and there are a number of players who BC has brought in whose contributions are both sporadic and suspect. He has now had three drafts and has only two active players on the roster to show for it (yes I know he wasn't to blame for the Lamond Murray fiasco but getting a guy from Greece who may never be seen cannot be the best he can do). Even Ukic isn't his player (another Babcock child). Even his trades and free agent signings have been weak. Yes he got $1.50 for Araujo but that is like saying you got a yen for a peso. John Salmons balked, Fred Jones was a bust, the Peewee Herman he got for Jones didn't work out and Brezec, although midly entertaining, was only useful for his expiring deal. As much Vilanueva hasn't worked out for Milwaukee, there is no doubt now that trade was a mistake. Kapono looked decent down the stretch last year and that one may turn out ok but no one can deny that he is being overpaid for what he has given so far (anyone remember how the Raptor party line after the signing Kapono instead of a swing who can create their own shot, play d and rebound was that if they hit more shots, they wouldn't need to rebound as much, how did that work out). The final nail in the coffin is that he extended Graham. I scratched my head last off-season and could only reason that it was standard operating procedure (i.e. everyone re-ups their 1st rounders). The problem is that if he intended to keep Graham and develop him instead of just dumping his salary, then why go out and get Moon, and Kapono and Delfino in a trade, thus burying the kid deep on the bench? Maybe he thought the competition would set a fire under Joey but then why extend him? Wouldn't the fear of not being under contract after 3 years have done the same thing and maybe more effectively? If I understand how these things work correctly, even if Joey blew up last year, the Raps still would have had the right to match option should other teams show interest..."

Some great points and whether you are completely in BC’s corner or not, there are some irrefutable facts here, especially in terms of his success with player acquisitions. There’s no question he’s struck out on a few personnel moves in Toronto…but how about prior to this in Phoenix? Everyone remembers the Nash and Kidd deals, but let’s take a closer look at some of the main transactions that went on under his watch in Arizona:

-In 1996 he was involved in dealing Charles Barkley to Houston for Robert Horry, Mark Bryant, Chucky Brown and Sam Cassell. The same year he also grabbed Jason Kidd, Tony Dumas and Loren Meyer for Cassell, AC Green, and Michael Finley. And of course that year, he also drafted one Steve Nash.

-In 1997 he dealt the same Bob Horry along with Joe Kleine to reacquire former Slam Dunk champ Cedric Ceballos and Rumeal Robinson. In an even bigger move that year, he acquired Denver’s Antonio McDyess in a 3-way trade with the Nuggets and Cavs, giving up Tony Dumas, Wesley Person, two first round and two second round picks. The first round picks turned out to be Tyronn Lue and Brevin Knight and the second rounders being Greg Buckner and Dan McClintock. Finally in 1997, Phoenix drafted high school star Stephen Jackson. (However BC and co. waived the former McDonald’s All-Star before the season began.)

-In 1998, BC dealt Ceballos to Dallas for Dennis Scott. His moves with Dallas didn’t stop there as he dealt Steve Nash for the ill-fated trio of Pat Garrity, Martin Muursepp and Bubba Wells. However a first-round pick was also involved in this deal and with it, BC grabbed UNLV standout Shawn Marion. Wells and Muursepp didn’t last long however. The next year they were dealt with Mark Bryant for former Bull Luc Longley. The other player from the Nash deal, Pat Garrity didn’t last long either. In August of 1999, he and Danny Manning were sent to Orlando along with two first round picks for Penny Hardaway.

-2001 marked the year that BC made the infamous Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury swap with Clifford Robinson being thrown in exchange for John Wallace and Jud Buechler.

-In 2002, the Suns acquired Joe Johnson, Milt Palacio and Randy Brown from the Celtics in exchange for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers. Oh, and he even got Boston to throw a first-round pick (which turned out to be Casey Jacobsen.) Also, BC made the astute choice of Amare Stoudemire in that summer’s draft.

-2003 was much quieter in terms of major personnel moves but BC did draft Zarko Cabarkapa and acquire the draft rights to Leandro Barbosa.

-In 2004, BC reacquired Antonio McDyess in addition to Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward and Maciej Lampe while jettisoning Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway. He also signed Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson that off-season.

-Faced with salary issues BC dealt Joe Johnson in 2005 for Boris Diaw and two first round picks (Rajon Rondo and Robin Lopez.) He also moved the team’s first-round pick to Chicago which turned out to be Luol Deng. Quentin Richardson and a first-round pick (Nate Robinson) were then dealt for Kurt Thomas, and Raja Bell, and then later in the season Tim Thomas, were signed.

Nash and Starbury - The dichotomy that is Bryan Colangelo

After perusing this list of transactions, a few main things stand out for me:

1) First of all, with the draft being a fairly large crapshoot half the time, Colangelo has done an above average job of identifying high quality talent. Having the foresight to grab Nash, Stoudemire, Jackson and Marion in the draft (none of whom were popular choices by fans or critics when they were selected) alone is worth a round of applause. And considering a stat Howland mentioned to me last night (that 25 per cent of all first round picks since 2005 end up playing in the D League) Colangelo, except in a few cases, has been able to acquire players via the draft who contribute immediately.

2) Secondly, BC likes his shooters. During his tenure in Phoenix he made moves to get Robert Horry, George McLoud, Dennis Scott, Pat Garrity, Rex Chapman, Vinny Del Negro, Jud Buechler, Dan Majerle, and the list goes on and on. Even Rodney Rogers, a power forward he traded for in 1999, was one of the premier shooters at his position.

3) Finally, what really sticks out when you look at the Legomaster’s moves in both Phoenix (and now Toronto) is that he doesn’t sit on his hands if something isn’t working. You’ll notice numerous times under his tenure with the Suns that within a year or sometimes months, Colangelo turned around and dealt players he had only recently traded for!

We’ve seen this in Toronto as well and I think that’s the most encouraging thing about BC. He doesn’t hesitate to try and fix a mistake and so I imagine that several of the Raptors (including the coach) are currently on a very short leash.

So getting back to our original questions now that we’ve taken a more microscopic look at Colangelo’s career, has, as Kelly Dwyer put it, "the luster rubbed off of Colangelo?" Or after seeing the highs and lows, do you now think that yes BC has made some mistakes, but that he’ll continue to be quick in correcting things and consistently improving the club?

I’d have to say I’m solidly in the latter camp, with the recent Jermaine O'Neal trade paving the way.

The Joey Graham extension may have represented a lack of prescience on his behalf and Andrea no doubt looks like a top 10 pick in 2006 as opposed to THE top pick…but who’s to say Bargs can’t turn it around next year when he’s slotted at his correct position?

And having seen his dealings in Phoenix, it seems pretty certain that if both don’t step things up this year, they’ll find themselves jettisoned quicker than you can say Hoffa.

I think the other thing we’re all forgetting here is that from an analytical perspective, we’re talking about a fairly small "sample size" when examining BC’s work in Toronto to date. He’s only been with the club for about two and a half seasons and if you were to grab the same time period from his tenure in Phoenix, the results could have been even worse.

Say for instance we looked at only Colangelo’s moves from 1998 to 2001 with Phoenix? During that time he dealt Steve Nash and Jason Kidd for essentially a broken down Penny Hardaway and Stephon Marbury. The lone bright spot in that era was the drafting of Shawn Marion. However the following year he grabbed Joe Johnson and soon began to get the Suns back on the upswing. I’m thinking we’ll see the same thing in Toronto, with Jermaine O’Neal being the launch pad to the next era of BC basketball.

The first one hasn’t worked out so bad, and I think we all need to see what comes from the Jermaine O’Neal epoch before jumping ship.

After all, having all the talent in the world on a team doesn’t mean a thing if you don’t have management that can keep it together and consistently fine tune a franchise’s performance. Joe Dumars struck out badly on Darko but simply swallowed his pride, moved his former top 3 pick for the best deal possible, and ended up with Rodney Stuckey, not a bad consolation prize.

And for the preeminent example of the "we have lots of talent but can’t keep it" theory, look at the Atlanta Hawks. We originally started this post off with a comment from a Star.com reader who was willing to trade the post-2008 playoffs edition of the Raptors for said Atlanta team.

Now would you say that?

Hardly.

In only about 3 months the Hawks have gone from a team of great promise to one that could be right back in contention for worst squad in the league.

Maybe things didn’t go quite as smoothly in Toronto as fans and management alike would have hoped…

…but looking around at Chris Wallace, Kevin McHale, Michael Jordan, John Paxon and numerous other GM’s, Raptors fans have had it pretty good in the Colangelo era.

On that note, I think another comment from earlier this week does a nice job of finishing things off:

…aren't we really just arguing with ourselves a bit over him having a 2-year "make or break" window? By that I mean, the turnaround in his 1st year seemed dramatic but in retrospect he turned a dismal franchise into a moderately respectable one. That doesn't make you a "master" GM, it makes you a competent one...

Well put and I think that's the final point that needs to be made. Toronto's media (and that includes us here at the HQ) and the team's fans were probably guilty in over-hyping Colangelo, which was somewhat inevitable after the recent dismal seasons by the Raptors.

The reality is that Colangelo is one of the better NBA executives in the league but is by no means some sort of all-knowing savant. BC needs a bit of luck and for the cards to fall a certain way just like every other GM.

He'll make his share of mistakes running the show, but will also be quick to make corrections after realizing the error of his ways.

Does the Jermaine O'Neal trade undo some of his previous miscues?

We'll see starting in October but regardless you can be sure that Colangelo will all the while be hunting for that next Antonio McDyess for Tony Dumas type swap...

FRANCHISE

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Comments

I think what Colangelo's reign will all boil down to is the next two seasons of Bargnani's career. You just can't totally whiff on a first overall pick, even if a so-called bad draft. I like the JO trade, but we have to see this for what it is: a two year rental to convince Bosh to extend his contract after the 2009-10 season. Even if O'Neal shines, the chances are that he will jump ship when his contract is up.

The most interesting point from the above article is that none of the building blocks of this franchise have much to do with Colangelo. (although turning the team around enough to make Bosh and Calderon stay here should not be overlooked).

I was hoping you guys could run an article on the summer of Lebron . . . I'll get the ball rolling with a list of free agent after that year.

I have no faith in Andrea right now, but maybe something could happen . . . as a Raptors fan, you have to pray.

by Aaron on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

(this is my own list, so there might be a few small errors)

Free Agents After the 2009-10 season: (x-player option; y- team option; r- right to match)

Lebron James (x)
Tracy McGrady
Amare Stoudemire (x)
Dwayne Wade (x)
Chris Bosh (x)
Jermaine O'Neal
Carlos Boozer
Richard Jefferson (x)
Steve Nash (y)
Shaquille O'Neal
LaMarcus Aldridge (y)
Brandon Roy (y)
Manu Ginobili
Joe Johnson
Ray Allen
Zydrunaus Ilgauskas
Marcus Camby
Antonio McDyess
Al Harrington
Stephen Jackson
Rafer Alston
Shane Battier
Rudy Gay (y)
Kyle Lowry (y)
Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem
Raja Bell
Greg Oden (y)
Brad Miller
Al Horford (y)
Rajon Rondo (y)
Anderson Varejao
Al Thornton (y)
Fabricio Oberto
Andrea Bargnani (r)
TJ Ford (x)

That's not everyone, but it is most of the players who will make an impact for their new teams. What a crazy list! (I also found a site that lists Nowitzki, Redd, Josh Howard, Chandler, and potentially Kobe Bryant as free agents that year, but I can't confirm it elsewhere.)

by Aaron on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Aaron is right about Bargs being a big piece of the puzzle for the Raptors - GM, coach, equipment manager, everyone. At some point this summer, since there's no actual basketball happening, I'd encourage you guys to do an in-depth examination of Bargs. One thing that jumps out about Bargs at this point is what if he does work out this year and finds his niche? Doesn't it look like Bargs and Bosh reproduce each other's strengths (offensively) to a large extent. Unless one of them becomes a centre do we keep them both?

I'll probably chime in about BC later on but figured I'd lobby for a future post. I'm new here so maybe you've done it before but what's the summer for but rehashing "crucial" debates among the hardcore fans.

by Sam on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Lets look at some other current GM's from around the league:

Ainge had been useless (and Doc Rivers a laughing stock) until he finally found a worse GM than himself in McHale and stole a premiere talent.

Rick Sund has destroyed Atlanta.

Rod Higgins (and MJ) have not done anything significant during their time with Charlotte (Adam Morrison? Swing and a miss!)

John Paxon? He's about to lose Luol Deng and was going to throw $10 mil a season at Ben Gordon prior to last year.

Danny Ferry? He's done nothing to surround LeBron with any talent. Larry hughes? Ben Wallace? Wally Sczerbiak? Are you kidding me?

Donnie Nelson (Marc Cuban)? Antawn Jamison for Jerry Stackhouse? Devin Harris and two first round picks for Kidd? Signed Raef Lafrentz to a 7 year deal? Ouch!

Mark Warkentien? - Dumping Marcus Camby for nothing?

Larry Bird? Indiana became one of the worst teams in the league (with the worst attendance) all on his watch.

Elgin Baylor? 22 years, 1 Olowakandi, 3 playoff appearances...nuff said!

Chris Wallace? Chris Wallace with unlimited cap space is like a mule with a spinning wheel. No one knows how he got it (Kwame Brown) and damned if he knows what to do with it.

Randy Pfund? I believe he owes Steve Kerr a fruit basket.

Kevin McHale? Sam Cassel and a 1st round pick for Marco Yaric? Brandon Roy for Randy Foye? The Joe Smith Fiasco? Cherokee Parks? Ray Allen and a 1st round pick for Starbury?

Rod Thorn - Jefferson for Yi and Simmons? Sticking with the Big Three long after it was clear they could never win? However, he did fleece us for VC, but that was more a product of Babcock and dumb luck.

Donnie Walsh? The only GM worse than McHale.

Steve Kerr? Is waiting on his fruit basket from Miami.

Kevin O'Connor? Traded FOR Hoffa.

Ernie Grunfeld? Cassell for Anthony Peeler? Ray Allen for Gary Payton?

With the exception of maybe Kevin Pritchard and his furious season and a half, R.C. Buford in San Antonio, Joe Dumars in Detroit, I'm curious to knwo what G.M. you would rather have?

B.C. has some skeletons in his closet, but so does every GM who's been around.

by Casey on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Hey guys,

Just a comment that I would like to make and it relates to BC being succesful or not... It does indeed all revolve around Bargniani. I believe that BC knew that keeping Bosh here would be a big challenge when his contract is up. HE drafted bargniani knowing that he plays the same position as Bosh..because he didnt care about initial impact. He was/is hoping that bargniani turns into an all star by the time bosh is gone because his plan was to let bosh go, have barniani replace him. It makes poerfect sense because bargiani (if became a great playeR) is one of the few that would want to stay in Toronto because of the european supprt etc. Bargniani would be easier to keep as an all star etc.

With all this in mind... Bargniani is 100% his axe of failure or success....

by Blanco on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Bargs and Bosh have different skills that are not necessarily redundant. They also bring a different dynamic to the team.

I think it's not fair to judge BC's drafting of Bargs in a weak draft even if he doesn’t pan out. The fact is, in an NBA poll taken that same year of all NBA GM's, Roy was taken to win ROY that year, but Bargs was chosen as the best player from this class in either 3 or 5 years (I can't remember which one it was). This is very telling because it tells us that it wasn't just BC and his Italian roots that had Bargs ranked so high, but all the other GM's as well. This poll was also taken early-mid season when Bargs was still struggling in his rookie campaign. Remember, hindsight is 20/20. Brandon Roy was drafted 6th that year and then was traded for Foye. Knowing now how the cards have fallen, would Roy not have been the consensus #1 pick.

by Assistant GM on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Amazing Article

In fairness to Utah's GM the move he made to get Hoffa didn't cost him much. He didn't give up much in Kris and he didn't get much back in Hoffa who is no longer in the league.

However he did manage to get his hands on Deron Williams, Okor and Boozer. Ronnie Brewer was also a steal and a guy the Magic should have taken. Basically tripled his scoring avg (12 ppg) from his rookie to sophmore season and became the starting 2 guard which is not easy for a mid first rounder to do on a contending team.

Back to the article: THe best point you made was that Colo is a proactive GM he doesn't sit around waiting. Thats why it will be interesting to watch the JO situation and Andrea situation.

A lot of people are saying that if JO doesn't workout then the Raps have 22 million coming off the books in the summer of 2010. What happens if this experiment sucks from the get go? Is Colo going to wait 2 years?

In regards to Andrea if he keeps flopping and struggling how long will Colo keep him around? He did say he continues to support and believe in Andrea however it is not a position he will support forever....interesting comments

Overall though Colo has been better than he has been bad, some people will just never see the glass as half full I guess. He's turned them into a consistant lottary team into a playoff team. People say the Suns never won with Colo there.....true but wouldn't you much rather be talking every year whether or not you will win the championship compared to whether or not you will make the playoffs?

Thanks for posting that list Aaron:

I've seen Varejeo in person and he's much bigger than Bosh in height and size so we could get away with him at center. If Andrea continues to suck use the JO money to bring in JJ and Anderson. So many great possibilities with that list and the amount of cap space we will have.

by wtf on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

as overrated as JP? seriously? a guy who drafted stoudamire, nash, marion and jackson is over-rated? a guy who took a team that won 27 games and with a little cap space (not enough to sign a max player and a team that NO NBA free agents would come to because the carter debacle) and turned it into a 47 win team. signing guys anyone could have like parker and garbo.
and does anyone think you could trade villaneuva today for oneal and that cap space in 2010? i don't think so. what will the knicks give up next year for oneal's expiring contract to take a run at lebron or wade? oneal's contract is gold.
anyone who doubts BC has an extremely short memory of how crappy this franchise was just three years ago.
this city just has to criticize everything. we have a fantastic GM, and that's not good enough. its ridiculous.

by stik on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

whops I meant to say he turned them into a playoff team from a lottary team

by wtf on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I, for one, would like to think that we have a strategy in place, and that our moves, both on the court and off, reflect that strategy. It seems that our current situation is more a result of make the next best available move. Negotiation is important, but I thought we were getting a top-tier GM who has a strategy. Run and gun lasted a month; our team nucleus is no more...let's hope that we don't soon look back at the JO move as yet another 'strategy' that needs replacement.

by JK on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Screw talking about BC, let's examine Bargs now.

AGM, I agree Bargs and Bosh are different players but are their skill sets capable of being complimentary? I don't have a firm answer in my mind but tend to think that both of them need to play alongside a banger - a guy like O'Neal can be and like I hope Jawai develops into. Your offence with Bosh and a banger looks different than Bargs and a banger (although both alliterate very well) but either way it looks better than an offence with both on the floor for extended minutes. I also tend to think that no amount of creative offensive coaching maximizes both guys' talents unless one or the other learns to bang. Bosh has it in his mentality but I don't think he could handle the pounding game after game. Bargs is a bit bigger but he's a finesse player.

That all sounds critical of Bargs so I'd like to add that I hope he works out. I just think that he or Bosh aren't on this team for long if we make it into the elite. And I would hold onto Bosh of the 2. The only way it works is if Bargs is content as a 6th man. He may well be and as long as he is content to be paid as such I would be happy to see him in a Raptors jersey for a long time. But much like our PG situation, I lean towards thinking that if he progresses this year he might be most valuable to us in a trade. He might fetch the quality wing player we are likely to need at some point.

Oh, and to get back to the point of this thread, not only do I feel confident BC has the ability to see this posibility, I believe he is capable of trading either guy for genuine value. As bold as he is in the moves he's recently made he has kept a great degree of flexibility to remould the team in the not-too-distant future. That makes him a quality GM.

by Sam on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

It's a little unfair to blame the Kidd for Marbury trade on him. Remember that the trade happened right after J. Kidd had a domestic violence incident with his wife at the time. Moving Kidd was as more about PR than it was about basketball. That said, the trade didn't really work out all that well, which is ultimately on him.

What I like about Colangelo is exactly what you said Franchise, he doesn't waste time if something isn't working. He doesn't seem to be too caught up in protecting his guys.

What I don't like is his treatment of the draft. It's cheap labour, you have got to keep your picks and turn them into something useful. Look at what Portland's doing. They will be a powerhouse for the next 10 years because of all the draft picks that Pritchard has picked up. Presti is doing the same thing in Seattle/O.K. City. Meanwhile, we're moving draft picks and when we keep them, picking guys that won't be able to help for at least 4 or 5 years.

This team is stuck in the NBA's version of No Man's Land....good enough to make the playoffs, and end up with a 15 - 22 draft pick, but not good enough to actually contend for anything. The J.O. move works for me because it will either work, and we'll be a true contender, or it won't and we'll be in the lottery, hopefully getting a cheap, quality young player that will be ready to help us for years down the line. So we will add a piece or two to add to the boatload of cap space we'll have when J.O. comes off the books.

My hope is the Colangelo is waiting for Bargnani to bounce back...not because he'll be a big part of this team, but because he'll have more trade value when he does. Bargnani and Bosh cannot play together. While their skills aren't redundant, they don't compliment each other either. Both are face up players with little skill back to the basket (although Bosh is better). Bargs doesn't rebound or defend particularily well, and while Bosh is again better, he's isn't making up for what Bargnani isn't doing. Based on track record, I have to believe that BC recognizes this and will look to sell high instead of low.

It's also worth noting that Bargnani is restricted in 09-10. How much are we prepared to pay him? I ask because I'm pretty sure that there's an Italian League Team out there that would offer a small fortune to have him head back to Europe. Are we prepared to pay him star money? Because it may take close to that to keep him here. So we have 2 years to decide whether he's a max-money player, or to move him before the summer of 09-10, because we'll get nothing for him if he bolts.

by Jeff on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Some great posts here as usual.

First up, Aaron, great list. Good idea for a future post too so we'll put that in the queue.

Second, Casey, your post is killing me here, I can't stop laughing. The parts about the fruit basket and Baylor especially...

And Jeff, you raise a very interesting point about Bargs and the threat of an Italian team overpaying. I think Howland is going to get into this a bit more next week but suddenly with Biedrins, Delonte West and Carl Landry all possible flight risks, the game certainly has changed.

The good thing as many of you have mentioned, is that BC now has another period of observation to see what works. Andrea is obviously the biggest X factor here besides the health of JO and while I'm not convinced of his "fit" yet either with Bosh, he at least needs to show that he can shoot again. This is an article for later this summer but his progress could go a very long way in determing how successful next year's team is.

by Franchise on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Have we already forgotten what this team was like three years ago that we run a post wondering about BC's skills?

A. From 27 wins to 47 and the playoffs.

B. From a weak draft he had the guts to take a Euro first overall, and given that the only guy who makes us feel bad about that was taken at #6, I can't say as I feel we exactly got burned with Bargs.

C. His additions were all players anyone could have had (as Stik mentions above). Parker, Garbo, etc. could have been had by anyone - yet it was BC who brought them over and used them to stabilize the team.

D. The Rasho signing. Pure gold. The guy came in (at a hefty price) and helped lock down the teams biggest weakness.

E. Chuck V becomes Ford becomes O'Neal. That is called spinning straw into gold. An injury prone power forward without a rebounding or back to the basket game becomes a pass first point guard becomes an All-Star at centre. Even if you take O'Neal out of the equation and just compare Ford vs Chuck V (and I love me my Charlie Smooth) and how they have done the last two years.

F. He didn't mess up Calderone. How many Gms would have screwed the pooch by flipping Calderone as soon as he got Ford?

G. The draft. Bargs isn't a home-run, but it doesn't look to me like there was a home-run to hit in that draft outside of Roy - and there wasn't a scout alive who would have told you to take him first overall. Would you rather have Tyrus Thomas?

Jawai already looks to be something most Gms don't find in the second round - an NBA caliber big.

H. Joey's extension, and Delphino for two 2nd rnd picks. Of all the criticisms leveled at BC these are the only two that I think are legit. I would not have re-upped Joey for that price tag, and 2 2nd rnd picks is a steep price for a guy who couldn't be re-signed (largely a casualty of the O'Neal deal - because I strongly suspect Delphino would have been re-upped otherwise).

But those last two items are hardly stains on BC's tie worth worrying about.

In my mind the majority of the criticism boils down to his pick of Bargnani, when what should be at issue is how good the team is with him at the helm.

I think he has clearly and obviously made the Raptors better, and this off-season he has continued to do so.

All of which just makes me want to punch his whining detractors in the grill.

As for Bargnani, I'm convinced that his problems aren't a lack of skill, but a lack of having a true position. Much of the commentary above centers around the idea that he is now a power forward. Thinking back to his Euro days he would guard other bigs but was essentially a 2 guard offensively. Does he duplicate Bosh? Hardly. Bosh is better in the post, better on the glass, and more physical on defense. Bargs can shoot the lights out, is a better passer (no-look-one-touch!), and still raw in the post and on D.

Is he a bust? I have argued (repeatedly) that the answer is 'no'. Kwame Brown is a bust. Michael Olowakandi is a bust. Darko is a bust. Whereas Bargs is going to be a useful NBA player - probably with the Raptors - for a long time.

by Bedhead on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Couple points speaking of Darko how is the guy still 23 years old.....perhaps he still has time to turn into a decent player (obviously not worthy of the 2nd pick especially in that draft).

There are others in addition to Brandon Roy who have played exceptionally well though not an allstar level.

Lamarcus Aldridge averaged 18 points and 7.5 boards on 48% from the field. (He is being overlooked with Roy and Oden on the team)

Rudy averaged 20 points and 6 boards on 46% shooting.

I'm sure if the Raps fans and perhaps management had a time machine but couldn't pick Roy a lot of them would go with Aldridge or Rudy.

However other than those 3 the 2006 draft doesn't look to promising. Other guys taken in the lottary include Shelden Williams, Patrick O'Bryant, Tyrus Thomas, Adam Morrison, Saer Sene and so on haven't done much.

Compared to those guys Andrea has been more productive and has a lot more potential so I'm willing to be patient. However this would be the last year I'd give Andrea if I were in charge.

A quick look back at the draft shows that you can add really key guys (not superstars) to your team at the end of the 1st round and 2nd round.

Guys like Rando, Farmar, Leon Powe and Gibson were all taken late in the 1st and 2nd and have already contributed significantly. Others like Boone, Lowry, Rodriguez and Leon Powe look to be significant contributors down the road.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but I just can't get over the idea that our starting lineup could have been

Calderon, AP, Rudy, Bosh and JO or Calderon Roy, Kopono, Bosh and JO with AP coming off the bench.

by wtf on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think another thing we should all look at is his age...
He can't be over 50 and saying he isn't...He's got a long road ahead of him if he decides to stay in the business...
The more experience he gains, the better Colangelo will become...

by Philip on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Good point about BC being young. While guys like Pritchard and Presti look good now, let's see if they can realize the admittedly awesome potential (in Portland's case) of their young squads. While age doesn't make a good GM, it certainly strikes me as a business where experience matters particularly if you're the type to learn from your mistakes. And there seems to be a growing consensus here that BC learns quickly from his mistakes.

GM's have to be the long-term thinkers in an organization. Coaches and players live or die season to season but the best franchises in the NBA are able to reinvent themselves over and over.

One last thing: the NBA is probably the hardest league in pro sports in which to win a championship. Very few franchises have done it. While I think San Antonio's brain trust is excellent luck - in the form of the ping pong balls that became Tim Duncan - plays a role in their rise and continued elite status. Franchise's review of BC's career puts him in the above average category of GM's with plenty of good years left. Whatever happens in the next 2 years, I would hope he continues to guide the team.

by Sam on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Like others have said, I think it's too early to tell. Still, even with all the issues we may have with Bargs' pick or the current roster, converting an awfully bad team into two straight playoff appearances is no small feat.

By the way Garbajosa just signed for the rich russian club Khimki, the same team that signed Delfino just a few days ago. The deal is rumored to be about $4-$5m/year and a three-year length.

by Sergi P on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

BC is the man. nobody cared much about this team when rob babcock took over (his signing of hoofa over igoudala still haunts me, and vc trade for graham) but when BC arrived, there was so much hope and promise to this team, with packed home games. everyone needs to give BC more time. u have to give props for him always being active and trying to make this team better. also, give bargnani some time. most mock drafts had adam morrison going first and even tyrus thomas. no one expected roy to be roy and la marcus and rudy to be great players quickly. also rudy plays for a horrible team and recieved more minutes which just made him a better player. bargnani was the best choice cause of his skill set and his height. he played better than dirk in his first yrs, and seriously, who would have taken roy first overall pick. and we didnt take lamarcus because we had bosh. BC signed great players in ap and garbo and the jo trade looks phenomenal. if jo fails this year and gets injured we go to the lottery. if u dont wanna wait for two years BC can trade him for another great player because everyone wants to have cap during that awesome free agent yr. fail or win this season with jo, our future will still be bright. Go BC!!!

by tea time on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Casey, I think you're onto something. I mean really how good did the GMs of the champs and the runner-ups have to be to make those deals. Hardly masterpieces of talent evaluation, long-term planning or masterful cap manipulation.

How realistic is it to expect a GM to have a "midas touch" anyways? Really, who was midas and what did he know about bball? And if drafting is a crapshoot, then trading really can't be much better. Who knows how a player is going to respond to a new team/country/city/coach/etc/etc.? All you can do is try to match your players with a coach and I think BC's done that. I know lots of journalists and commenters say BC wanted toronto to be phoenix east, but I never heard BC or sam say that. "100 shats" Yes, I know, but of course they want to run, all teams, especially young ones need to get easy baskets this way. Hell, atlanta and philly did some playoff damage this way. Are they phoenix southeast and northwest or wherever the hell they are?

Also I take issue with a discussion about how a gm traded a pick who turned into player x. That's like a compound crapshoot and that player has nothing to do with the original gm.

Anyways this is a blog post and comments for the ages... nice work all. Got to go lose some money at poker now.

by axl on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

After the wilderness before him BC was a huge improvement. He's not God neither the Devil - he's just a highly competent GM who surrounds himself with smart and efficient people and understands the business at all levels.
I personally like him for the way he improves his team after real or perceived mistakes. I really believe that starting this year we'll be contenders in the East and in 2 years we'll be contenders for the title.
He wants to put an entertaining product on the floor (his love for shooters) and he's an out of the box thinker: influx of Euro's the first summer, emphasizing the strengths (Kapono), absolute respect for players.
I have no doubt the guy is in first tier GM's in professional sports and at the same level with Bouchard (spelling?), Dumars, Pritchard amongst active NBA GM's.

by Daniel on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great post, man this site keeps the off season less painful. I pray to god every night that we arent on here in three years talking about bargs as another mcgrady who got away. he will play better this year, he's gonna see time on the floor with both bosh and jo, and us fans are gonna see the second round

by adam on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Seriously it pains me to hear this BS

BC has done a great job.

Has been perfect? NO, but even Joe Dumars drafted Darko over Bosh, Wade and Carmello. I just don't get the expectations it's not like he took over a great situation. It looked bleak and he has done very well, 2 plaoff seasons out of 2. This year we make noise and all you nay sayers will be praising Raps and BC

We are good!!
Are we guranteed a title? NO.

Are we guranteed a 1 st round win? NO.
There are a lot of good teams in the NBA and we are one of them before BC we were not.

Lets rexamine all GM's, and be thankful we have a good (if not great) one.

Give some respect to BC.
Last time I checked he is the best GM we ever had and the best in this City by miles.

by raptorize blog master on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

On yesterday topic here is the team I would take:

PG Calderon/Ford/M Jackson
SG Carter/Parker/Curry
SF T Mac/Christie/JYD
PF Bosh/Oakley/Camby
C Oneal/Davis/Rasho

GM BC
Coach (We have not had a good one yet)
If I had to pick it would be Jay Triano

by raptorize blog master shayne on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I am fully behind BC. Everything he has done so far suggest to me that he is the right man to run this team for many years to come. There are several reasons why I think this.

As far as I'm concerned BC best attributes is his willingness to collaborate. Since he has come to TO, he has actively sought out the best available basketball minds and brought them aboard. Together these men can make much better decisions than any individual could.

BC is not afraid to make big moves. He hasn't really had a chance to do anything to dramatic yet in TO, but his history in Phoenix definitely shows this.

BC is adaptable. He came to TO and it looked like he was going to turn them into Phoenix East. Clearly that didn't work out and was never going to work out. So what does he do? Stubbornly stick it out for a few more years. No, he recognizes that the team needs a new direction and he goes for it. Even better, he doesn't try to half-ass it. With the JO trade, BC really showed that he is capable of understanding the strengths and limitations of his coach and roster. Whether or not the JO trade works out, it was the only available option that gives the Raptors a chance to be an elite team. Trading for Gerrald Wallace would have been a sideways move at best. Diaw would have been even worse.

Since BC has arrived he has made only two real "mistakes". One was drafting Bargnani and the other signing Kapono.

Let's face it, the year the Raps won the lottery was the worst possible year to be in that position. So far Brandon Roy looks like the best player from the draft, but he was hardly a sure thing. Neither Aldridge or Gay is worthy of being a #1 overall pick. I kind of understand where BC was coming from with Bargs. If he develops the way he should, he would be completely unguardable. Also, Bargs rated extremely high in the psych testing that they did. Clearly Bargs has a long way to go, but the potential is still there.

The other thing people tend to forget is that having the first pick is no sure thing. Just check the draft history. Plenty of #1 overall picks have been average players or complete busts. The name Kwame Brown ring a bell or how about kenyon Martin or Michael Olowokandi.

As for Kapono. I do think that he was paid too much. Unless he suddenly learns how to defend at a fairly high level. However, he showed in the playoffs just how devastating he can be on offence. That is, if he is put in the right position. It's really hard to complain too much about having the best 3-point shooter in the league on your team, even if he should be making about 1-1.5 million less a season.

So let's summerize.
Reasons to like BC:
-He's decisive
-He's not afraid of big decisions
-He's flexible

Reasons to not like him:
-He sometimes makes mistakes.

If you look around the league. Many teams would kill to have a GM who is as generally competent as BC. So, let's just settle down and enjoy the ride. Our lovely city may never see an NBA championship, but BC is more likely to bring one than any of the GMs that we've had or would be likely to attract if he left.

by Sorael on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I still feel confident in BC, despite the shine of that first season wearing off. You described it well, that we the fans are definitely guilty of overhyping him. Even though they were clearly still far from being contenders, it was hard not to get hyped up about the huge turn around, which was mostly a change in culture (as BC always says).
Seeing how Bosh/O'Neal/Calderon work together along with whatever improvement Bargnani can muster are going to define this season. I think the trade of TJ for O'Neal shows BC's willingness to change his on court plans, as well as his commitment to the general plans of the mindset of this franchise as far as attitude.
As far as specifically for Bargnani, I'm at a point where I could still see him work out if he can build on flashes, but also realistically accepting that he could very well be a bust (as he looked last season).

Great articles guys, keep up the good work

by Dan on Jul 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

26 July 2008, 0649 hrs: it all depends on the Rap's 13th man - the one yet to come.

by Richard on Jul 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Again,
I have to ask the crowd to ease up on Bargs and Joey. Both have gone through some huge learning in the last few years. Joey probably never had to play the wing in his life until he became a starting 3 in the NBA. Those are a lot of small ball skills to learn. All in all, he's done some growing, about as much as you can while sitting your ass on the bench.He can play the 2-4 positions to some extent, now, and may even see the floor this year. It is confusing how he'll get out on the floor, do some good things, and then get sat on the bench. Other days, he looks totally lost and that is when Sam decides to leave him in for 20. If HE, "HE" meaning Sam and Joey together, can put all of his skills together, he becomes an important piece and nasty post up against smaller wings trying to defend him.

For Bargs, we have to admit that no one was complaining at this time last year. In that time, he has come a long way in learning to battle under the boards. He is hardly a low block rock, but he's better. The big difference for him all around is that he was not hitting his shot. Simple. Everything else in his game is acceptable if he hits his open shots. That means the other teams bigs do have to come out to him on the perimeter, rather than wait for him at the basket. If he hits his shots, his improvement on other aspects fo the big man game will be more obvious. He is young and on schedule.

We lack patience. Babcock had a patient plan in place with the Raps. One that the suits at MLSE signed off on, only to decry the lack of direction under Babcock when they threw him under the bus. The true value of Colangelo to the Raps is that he came in with the authority and cache to get the suits to let the sports people manage the sports team.

As a direction, Babcock wanted draft picks and would have continued to do well with them. Other than Hoffa, he drafted CV way higher than expected, saw him become a runner up for ROY, and then get moved for a significant piece (by BC). Joey and Roko may not have panned out yet, but they are both on the team, at least. As for Hoffa, well, he had been here for 3 weeks when he did that pick and apparently went with the advise of his staff. He really wanted Jameer Nelson. Hindsight would take Igoudala. BC may not have made that pick just because he would have had the respect in the organization to allow hime to do what he saw as best, whereas Babcock was trying to show faith in his new people. If Babcock were here, we'd have a load of young talent here, but probably a pissed off star in Bosh and more destructive medling from Peddie. Be patient with Joey and Bargs and thankful that BC means no Peddie.

by EaseMyPain on Jul 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

easemypain said "We lack patience. Babcock had a patient plan in place with the Raps. One that the suits at MLSE signed off on, only to decry the lack of direction under Babcock when they threw him under the bus. The true value of Colangelo to the Raps is that he came in with the authority and cache to get the suits to let the sports people manage the sports team."

well said, have to wonder if the mlse suits know anything about basketball at all

by axl on Jul 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

To emphysize the importance and rarity of BC's ability and flexibility to see his mistakes and correct them can be seen in the extreme opposite with Washington's GM Ernie Grunfeld locks up 2 "core" injury prone offensive no-grit players who (injuries aside) have continually shown that they do not have what it takes to be successful in this league for 18.5mill/year (Arenas) and 12.5mill/year (Jamison). Imagine what damage they could have done if they let both guys walk and use that money to sign 2 or 3 top restricted free agents? They are kidding themselves with this championship level B.S. Best put by Einstein:

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

BC is a top 5 GM in this league and if MLSE was smart they would lock him up until his social security kicks in.

by Edgar on Jul 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

some encouraging bargnani inof. from raps site though so take with bag of salt

http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/ulmer_bargnani_072508.html

by axl on Jul 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

interesting point in this article is the idea of playing Bargs at the 3. Playing defence would be hard, Bargs says, but what if the team played zone, and all Bargs had to do was steer his man into the middle to face Bosh and JO?

As Ulmer says, Bargs could shoot at will from that position, with CB and JO picking up the offreb from different sides.

Franchise, Howland, what do you think? I have asked this twice now before, third time the charm? Any comment on this offence / defence strategy?

by gerry on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I like th idea of mixing it up, having Andrea playing the three for stretches, together with Zone defense and then having him playing a mix of high post - Low post with Chris when Jo is out or playing the 4 when Chris is out. I like playing with the idea of having opposite teams having to adapt to our system/game plan when we have the possibility to change our offensive/defensive outlook so much. So far, unfortunately we have been the one trying to adapt our game to our opponent one. Let's hope this year is going to be different.

by renato on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I have been against playing Bargs at the 2 and there are a few reasons why in addition to the obvious he can't play man to man on a sf.

Even if Bargs leads his man into the center of the zone to face JO the rest of the team would have to be scrambling around to find the open man because Bargs would not be able to leave his man until the exact moment JO got there. That leaves us double teaming one guy for a second meaning the opposition has a man open which leads to scramble which means we are not in good position to rebound either.

On offence Bargs has an advantage (or at least he did as a rookie) about being able to shoot from the outside and go around big men on the perimeter. If you match him up against a small forward then the sfs can come out on the perimiter to guard him and he certaintly won't be able to get around them.

Now this is just a general rule I'm sure there will be opportunities were playing all 3 will work and there will be times when all 3 on together will be horrible so you probably have to pick and choose yoru spots. If Bargs showed us one thing last year it is that his position is at the Powerforward Spot. He's not a center and he's certainly not a small forward.

For his long terms development's sake I think the best thing you can do is put him in a position to do well so he can get his confidence up. Playing him against bigger stronger guys at center isn't good for that and neither is playing him against smaller faster guys especially since he isn't a bruising big man who would be able to beat up on smaller players.

Bring him off the bench whenever Bosh/JO need a sub or are in foul trouble so he gets to work against 2nd tier players and get his confidence back up. Then when he has his confidence and improves his rebounding and defence play him with Bosh (won't happen this year).

by wtf on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

WTF said: If Bargs showed us one thing last year it is that his position is at the Powerforward Spot. He's not a center and he's certainly not a small forward.

- I respectfully disagree. Bargs played centre at a high level for the first time in his career last season and by the time the playoffs rolled around he wasn't terrible at it - especially defensively where it was a bit of a revelation that Bargs could be reasonably asked to guard Howard.

A year of adding more strength and practicing his back to the basket game with mobile bigs like Bosh and O'Neal can only help him adapt to the position.

I suspect the long term plan is still to have him develop as a mismatch-creating centre, but one who is versatile enough to play the four or even the three.

by Bedhead on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Bedhead,
I agree with your assessment of Barg's development at center. He is still way ahead of Dirk at this point in his careet. Big guys take time. He seemed to do a reasonable job against Howard. His biggest problem seemed to be the refereeing disparity. Bargs seemed to get fouls for taking elbows to the head. Howard couldn't get a foul until it was committed on Garnett. I hope the league deals with some integrity on the refereeing issue soon.

by EaseMyPain on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

"Even if Bargs leads his man into the center of the zone to face JO the rest of the team would have to be scrambling around to find the open man because Bargs would not be able to leave his man until the exact moment JO got there."

WTF, zone defence dude. You are still thinking man-to-man. In the zone, Bargs faces up to his man, and forces him into the middle where Bosh and JO are. There is no scrambling, because that is where BOJO always are!

by gerry on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

But if Bargs is forcing his man into the middle he has to stay close to him and if he is forcing the guy to Jermaine then wouldn't that mean that Bargs and JO will be meeting the same guy then Bargs will have to scramble back out into his position.

Zone defences work sometimes however they certainly have their weaknesses and can be exploited very easily by teams with guys who can get into the lane and guys who are shooters, you see it time and time again.

And I would disagree at no point in time during last season did Bargs look like a solid defender at the center position.

I think he is in a really good position now where he will come off the bench and not have to worry about being a "starter".

Although pretty rudimentary this video shows some ways to break the zone. In the fist case watch how no.15 (blue)does not know whether to go under the basket and defend or go to the outside shooter.

On every clip you will see that even if the defender gets there in time to stop the ball (this video clip didn't show that happening) however there would still be open men on the outside.

I don't like the zone defence at all because its much eaiser to get open shots and its harder to rebound depending on who you have out on the floor and who the other team has out. I'd only use it to give an occasional different look if needed.

Bargs could not play center and he stands even less of a chance to play smallforward. Too many people want to see the home run play....and putting Bargs at the sf position is a major gamble and people are not looking at the downside.

Once again it is set up nicely now where he can come off the bench for JO or Bosh. As time goes and he gets more comfortable, gets his confidence backs, adjusts to putting the ball on the floor, becomes a better defender and rebounder then he will start.
Fortunately with the addition of JO we don't have to worry about starting him right now.

by wtf on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tG0tske33Q&feature=related

by wtf on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

ok, here is one back...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=3XkKHxkREYM

The vid you show to me shows zone defenders who are being asked to defend the perimter, and they get pulled out. The center guy is almost always out of position, not following around on the play. Not a good zone defence. And, those were little guys, it seemed, so the court looked a lot bigger; put the long arms of Bosh, JO, and Bargs in there, and you will not see the open spaces that were in your vid.

On the other hand, the greek offence against the zone is pretty much what I had in mind: restricting the shooters, daring them, to make the perimeter shot, a game of percentages that TO should win. The PG tries to penetrate and has to back out again. BTW, look at the score from that game.

by gerry on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think the problem with both our videos is that they do not represent what will actually happen with the Raptors.

Basically I'm saying that the zone defence while it can be effective has its flaws and can be beat. It is harder to put a body on the opposition when a shot goes up because you might not be near the opponent. Too often players get mixed up and switched up.

With Bargs although he does have great length the guy is lost on the defensive end. He can defend his man straight up more effectively than he can defend as part of a system. He continued to get lost on back screens last season and would end up standing around staring while the rest of the guys on the floor tried to get the ball.

Not to mention the fact that even though he does have the height advantage there is no way he would be able to guard smallforwards, and shooting guards on the wing spot. He wouldn't be able to lead anyone towards JO. The guy would blow by Andrea and as Andrea tried to catch up Jermaine would have to come over to help leaving someone else open. The opposition could just send a 2 guard or small foward to whatever side of the floor Andrea was on (whichever position for that team has the more dynamic offensive player).

If you think at this point Andrea can be part of a successful defensive strategy you've got another thing coming. He has to make up for his lack of defence with an increased output on offence. That is what he did in his rookie season so nobody cared. When his offence struggled you saw how many people started picking apart his defence.

Andrea cannot/will not/should not be playing the 3 for the Raptors. The first big off the bench is the best spot for him right now. If he improves which I think he will there is no reason he can't start.

As fans we want to always see the glass as half full but with Andrea on the defensive end....the glass is completely empty.

by wtf on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

"As fans we want to always see the glass as half full but with Andrea on the defensive end....the glass is completely empty."

That is making me thirsy! Gonna get my coffee now (they don't serve beer at my workplace! wonder why), and stop dreaming about fantasy options.

Yeah, I think you're right: if we wanted to throw a little scare into teams, we could try to have segments of a game with zone thrown in for a change of pace, but only occasionally (if ever). Bargs being lost, have to agree. Let's get his offensive stroke going before dreaming up defensive sets... sigh...

by gerry on Jul 28, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Two things have struck me the most in the BC era. First of all, BC's moves always seem to come from left field. Sometimes they are little known Euro guys, other times they are former all-stars. I can't really remember the last time BC made a move that fans and media thought he should do. The big thing is that these moves seem to pan out more or less, and thus each new move he makes I tend to put more trust in. Secondly, I have noticed that info really doesn't leak out to often. It seems that no one really knows what he does until things are already set in motion. I truly respect what BC has done for the Raptors and for the way he runs the organization. Hey, and one thing we can all thank BC for is switching to the new logo and game floor. I actually feel some pride watching our team play at the ACC instead of cringe every few seconds seeing Barney at centre court.

by Carl on Jul 29, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions