Summer League Recap

What about going for a guy that's already been with the organisation and that has since made strides. PJ Tucker played overseas last year and garnered some success playing for Hapoel Holon wjich defeated Maccabi Tel Aviv in an Israeli league. He's always been a proven defender and offensively he has improved. judging by this article, he's even learned to play many positions on the court and actually be efficient at them : 3shadesofblue.blogspot.com [look for the PJ TUcker artcile]

Heard good things about pj too. Hes not a 1 or a 2 but you could do worse than at least bringing him to training camp for another look. Too bad about benson, wonder if he was hurt that bad or was just out talented by the other players?

about joey and summer league...grange said it best on his last blog post: joey was supposed to dominate. he's a 3 year pro playing with scrubs and rookies. but outside of the decent points and rebounds he put together, he also averaged 6 fouls a game and something like 3 turnovers. not good.

I personally think joey is done. I'm sure we'll see the same stuff next season from him (a good game, a few bad) and then he'll be gone. to europe.

I too think joey is done with the raptors. Mitchell is tired of him and not willing to risk wasting minutes with him. He can play, but he seems more interested in learning to fly planes and pan fry salmon than get to the next level in the NBA.

I'm glad he had some nice games in vegas, because he'd be a nice piece on a bad team and maybe we can get something for him.

Hate to rain on the parade Franchise, but your boy Marcus Williams is now walking like a warrior. He was dealt to Golden State for a future first round pick - probably more than the Raps wanted to give up.

I'd still be up for a Joey for Boone trade from NJ. It wouldn't really solve any problems other than getting Joey off our roster.

Tupac clearly pointed out that Mobb Sleep and Nas were pretenders...just my opinion, I hope he was good live, respect to him, whatever.

Just like I'm going to predict a career season for Graham!!!....so we can package him at the deadline.

Seriously, he could avg. 10 and 5....but his playing time will cut into who's time?

I see Graham as a power forward trapped in a small forwards body on a team that really needs him a shooting guard.

It's no wonder that he often looks lost at both ends of the floor.

In any case, if he works out, great, but as far as trade value goes as it stands he isn't giving us much to work with.

That said, watch as Legomaster trades Graham for Bellinelli or makes some similar epic robbery - and I mean Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown and stuff epic.

Man is it a long off-season. Too long.

Okay,

Maybe I shouldn't be listened to considering that I thought Hoffa was going to turn the corner, but I think we are all crapping unnecessarily on Joey. He has done exactly what was hoped of him in the summer league - go to the hoop. He was driving and making some good decisions on when to pull up and shoot and when to go to the hole.
I like how Bedhead put it (a 4 trapped in a 3, expected to play the 2, but that diminishes him a bit. He has a chance to continue to develop into a good swingman defender who can push some big people around the hoop as well. Considering that he was always a big and then started as a rookie on the wing, he has had 3 years to learn the wing skills that he should have learned in his younger days. He's coming along pretty well and he is going to the hole. More than anything, that is what this team needed last year. If it wasn't Bosh, and occasionally Delfino, going to the line, it was the other team. That was taking a huge toll on Bosh who had to take 4 hits from guys like Dalembert before they even tried to guard him properly. Addams and Graham could really be important to the Raps by going to the bucket and getting some fouls. This is especially true with both Bosh and O'Neal able to pressure defences and pass out or around from a double team.

Last year, it seemed to me that the defences always collapsed into the paint on Bosh, sort of a big man zone, and had the other defenders out to guard the 3 point line. There was never anyone slashing to make the other teams perimeter players move in and out. They would put 2 on Bosh, 1 on the center, and have 2 on the first two guys on the perimeter. By the time the Raps swung it to the 3rd man, the defence could often shift to that side to help. It wasn't until Bosh put him self up there like a slab of meat to the grinder, that things got going. Too much. We needed Jermaine and we need slashers. Hopefully Joey can do that and get Jamario's scared ass into doing it as well. Parker could do it well, but didn't do it often.

I think Graham is a lost cause at this point and is only useful as an "expiring contract". However, I think the criticism of him picking up silly fouls may be a little over the top. Its summer league and I don't think you can foul out of games so it doesn't suprise me that he fouls so much. Its not like he would have access to extensive scouting reports on most of the guys he is playing against (in fact, I wouldn't be suprised if he had never heard of half of them) like he would at the NBA level. That isn't to excuse his play but you have to wonder how serious he took it on the defensive end. I think the real issue is more his mind set (he being so much better than everyone else, maybe he just decided to not go to hard defensively and get injured in meaningless games) which of course is a little worrisome as he has to know his time to make something of himself is drawing to a close.
I can't help but wonder if a stint in the NDBL might wake him up? Maybe getting demoted will finally make him realise how precarious his spot in the NBA really is. I am not sure if he qualifies though as I thought I read somewhere that the NDBL was suppose to be for players who were in their first 3 years, anyone know for sure?

I know everyone has drank a lot of the BC Koolaid in the past (myself included) but is anyone else concerned that BC seems to be a little out of his depth here? I mean there isn't a single significant player on the roster that he has brought in (not including ONeal whose contributions we won't know til the seasons starts). Calderon is Babcocks baby, Bosh came from Grunwald, and that really is all that you can rely on with this team. Parker is too hot and cold at times and his best season was his first. Garbajosa got hurt (which you can't blame BC for), and there are a number of players who BC has brought in whose contributions are both sporadic and suspect. He has now had 3 drafts and has only two active players on the roster to show for it (yes I know he wasn't to blame for the Lamond Murray fiasco but getting a guy from Greece who may never be seen cannot be the best he can do). Even Ukic isn't his player (another Babcock child). Even his trades and Free Agent signings have been weak. Yes he got $1.50 for Arrujo but that is like saying you got a yen for a peso. John Salmons balked, Fred Jones was a bust, the peewee herman he got for Jones didn't work out and Brezec, although midly entertaining, was only useful for his expiring deal. As much Vilan hasn't worked out for Milwaukee, there is no doubt now that trade was a mistake. Kapono looked decent down the stretch last year and that one may turn out ok but no one can deny that he is being overpaid for what he has given so far(anyone remember how the raptor party line after the signing Kapono instead of a swing who can create their own shot, play d and rebound was that if they hit more shots they wouldn't need to rebound as much, how did that work out). The final nail in the coffin is that he extended Graham. I scratched my head last offseason and could only reason that it was standard operating procedure (i.e. everyone reups their 1st rounders). The problem is that if he intended to keep Graham and develop him instead of just dumping his salary then why go out and get Moon, Kapono and Delfino in a trade and thus burying the kid deep on the bench? Maybe he thought the competition would set a fire under Joey but then why extend him? Wouldn't the fear of not being under contract after 3 years have done the same thing and maybe more effectively? If I understand how these things work correctly, even if Joey blew up last year the Raps still would have had the right to match option should other teams show interest. I hate to say this but the Oneal better work out or I will officially be off of the BC bandwagon. I keep thinking back to the first year the Raps made the playoffs against NJ 2 years ago and how I really thought they would have been better of getting another lottery pick instead.

Graham will always be a whipping boy in Toronto. He has no chemistry with the coach. I think he's a player that responds best to encouragement rather than negative. In the right situation with the right coaching he might become a very good role player.Probably best for him to move on. I wish him the best.

McGateway - Some very good points here. In fact, wouldn't it be safe to say that in many ways this year, and I suppose next, could really be the make or break years for BC? If the Jermaine O'Neal experiment is a flop, and Andrea struggles once again, couldn't it very well be "back to the drawing board" for this team? This might really be the case when JO and Bosh's contracts are up. So in the next two seasons, BC needs to ensure some sort of higher level of success because otherwise attracting premiere free agents or even keeping his own may prove to be a challenge...

Good points about BC but aren't we really just arguing with ourselves a bit over him having a 2-year "make or break" window? By that I mean, the turnaround in his 1st year seemed dramatic but in retrospect he turned a dismal franchise into a moderately respectable one. That doesn't make you a "master" GM, it makes you a competent one. He has definitely made some questionable calls with his drafting being the one that concerns me the most. The draft is a crapshoot for everyone though.

What I would say in defence of BC, and this is the reason, that I hope he sticks around even if things don't work out in the JO-Bosh era, is that he seems genuinely able to change direction. He didn't stick with Jones, he's made moves this summer that clearly show he realizes Bargs may not work out. He should be criticized for some of those moves but you have to temper the criticism a bit. I think the team could be better than it is if, for instance, Brandon Roy was playing the 2. But BC isn't one of those GM's who sticks with his mistakes because he refuses to admit mistakes. More importantly, he seems willing to change his own philosophy when it doesn't work. We're emphasizing rebounding when 2 years ago the team wrongly seemed to think it was not that important.

Unless some total hotshot comes along I hope BC's here for the long haul. It would be nice, though, if he lost a bit of his corporate polish - I'm tired of his sound-bite press conferences and would love it if he spoke in a bit more straightforward way about the team.

I know what you are trying to say McGateway, but lets not forget that BC has a huge task coming in and his first assignment was to change the entire culture of the team. He started by bringing in some nice pieces from overseas to compliment the present roster at the time and then had to basically take out the rest of the trash. I don’t think a single poster questioned Parker or Garbajosa’s relevance to the team after their first seasons. Garbo’s injury led to his inevitable buying out and Parker didn’t help his cause by coming into last years season a bit puffier and slower than what we came to expect from him. I don’t think that this should fall on BC. I think this is something that we tend to forget. Every move BC makes is strategic and serves a specific purpose. Salmons agreed in principle and then had some divine inspiration. Fred Jones was the next best thing at the time, but it didn't work out.

The one thing that BC does when things don't work out is to quickly try and fix his error. He isn't ashamed to admit he screwed up. Kapono was brought in to fit a specific need and wasn't played (by the coach) to his strengths. You need to put certain players in the right position to succeed. Remember, Bargs was coming off a pretty good rookie campaign at the time and the roster only needed tweaking.

Being from Europe, my dad follows the Euroleague closely and he says that Printezis is a player. It was also San Antonio that drafted him and then we traded a future second rounder for his rights. San Antonio does make good draft decisions. The jury is still out on Bargs...which brings us to...

...Joey Graham. I know that he doesn't have a high basketball IQ and all, but I still believe that part of the reason that he has never progressed is his lack of development (i.e., coaching). I still remember the last part of two years ago when Joey was playing consistently. We saw more Good Joey than Bad. He has always been forced to walk on eggshells, which makes it very difficult to develop the game mentally. When you are always second guessing yourself because you don't have the coach’s support, it makes it very difficult to just go out and play the game.

I mentioned in a post a few months ago that I ran into BC picking up takeout about a year and a half ago (it was right after we lost a game to the Pistons in February). He was a real dude and talked hoops with me for a good ten minutes while we waited for our order. I was convinced at the time that he wouldn't resign Smitch based on our conversation. It was probably a bit unprofessional (in retrospect), but even though he was openly criticizing many of Smitch's in game decisions, he did it in such a tactful way. For example, he would ask me: Bosh was getting pounded by Wallace all game, don't you think Rasho should have played more? He was posing these questions and then after my reply, he would very eloquently respond to his own question in a sleek manner essentially questioning Smitch in the process. Now back to Joey. I could tell from that conversation that he believed in Joey's potential and talked about how he was underused. BC: "Isn't it strange how Joey plays tough D, gets a steal, and has two big dunks in a few minutes and then never sees the court again (this was in the same Detroit game)? After my response he goes on to expand on Joey. A month later Joey starts to see regular minutes as a starter and actually starts to play well (until he got sick and was ineffective in the playoffs). The next season, he only sees garbage time minutes. I wish I could remember all of the details, but it was an overwhelming experience. We also talked about the Laker game and Smitch’s decision to take Jose out after building a 13 point lead with 3 minutes to play in favour of TJ and how it almost backfired – we barely snuck out a victory). Anyway, sorry for the ramblings, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter and show a different perspective.

While writing my novel, Sam posted a lot of the things that I talked about in my post. Sorry for the repetition!

Nice to know BC will talk ball with non-NBA types (I assume, AGM, you're not currently working in the league). Wish he would talk that way through the press a bit more.

One thing I meant to say in my original post was that Smitch should be in a "make a break" mode. I like the guy and thing he has improved as a coach since he started but he needs to put in a great effort next season or I'm calling for his head.

SHAQ is a Raptor!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Breaking-news-Shaq-traded-to-Raptors-;_ylt=AjiiC8U9kwIgWrPTKxFfOxS8vLYF?urn=nba,94979

Some excellent discussion going on!

McGateway, I agree with many of the points you brought up regarding the BC era. Mainly that a bulk of the players that have been brought in by BC to surround Bosh have either been suspect, inconsistent or in Kapono’s case over paid. However, Sam was absolutely spot on, in that BC has shown the ability to be agile and adapt when things don’t work out. BC was at an absolute low point in my books after this season ended, and then the JO trade happened. After digesting the JO trade it was obvious to me that BC had realized that this team’s Achilles heal was interior play (defence, rebounding, lane intimidation, post-up game). If the JO trade doesn’t work out, at least it shows that BC isn’t afraid to pull the trigger and step outside of his comfort zone. Until this trade I was afraid that he was absolutely committed to the now debunked strategy of Euro/Pheonix ball and would not be able to change direction. As I see it BC has definitely done way more good than bad for this franchise, but there is always more work to be done.

Assistant GM, not sure how much I can take from your comments. No disrespect to you, but you’ll understand that as this is an internet message board I have to question your credibility in regards to your VERY open conversation with BC while waiting for take-out… I mean, either your making the story up or BC is completely unprofessional!

To pick up on something that MAS said - what's exciting about the JO trade, despite its deep downside, is that it's a change in philosophy without being a total rejection of the "Euroball" approach BC brought to Toronto. I like watching guys hit shots and making it look easy. There was a game against Charlotte this year when Kapono was on fire and I swear he volleyed a 3-pointer for nothing but net. That element of the game is still strong with this team but there's a chance we've got enough interior presence not to get bullied out of our ball-movement, perimeter-heavy game. I'm actually looking forward (kind of) to seeing if this revives Bargs. Although I'd still trade him to Portland for Roy in a heartbeat . . .

It would be great if things fall together this year.

McGateway, you make some good points aobut BC's calls so far. They looked good when Bargs was the second best rookie. Truth was, Babcock had a plan and it was a slow, solid, development plan. I'm not sure the organization could complete if before the fans forgot about the team, though. Most of the talent that has come from Babcock, but BC has a winning record in this town, which makes him an only amongst gm's of major sports franchises in this city.

I think Joey does need a little more help. Sam does, by his own accord, motivate one way. Only those guys who had the core (Bosh, Calderon) anyway are succeeding. I think Joey can contribute, especially by slashing. JO is going to make Sam look a lot smarter than he was this year.

MAS. Believe me I know where you're coming from. First off, I am a teacher by trade and do not work for the Raps. One day I was craving Greek food on the Danforth and much to my surprise BC and his son were waiting in line at a popular restaurant. What made the experience so cool was the fact that I simply went up to him and thanked him for turning around our franchise. I even apologized for approaching him and didn't even extend my hand. BC made a point of shaking my hand, told me he was not offended, but thankful for my compliment and then proceeded to talk ball with me. I was like a giddy little kid, but tried to stay composed and sound intelligent. After my 10 minutes of fame, the first thing I said to my wife when I got into the car was that Smitch was done as coach of the Raps. I am a pretty intelligent guy and can read into someone's innuendo. I was surprised that he was so open to discussion. I agree that it was unprofessional and I actually felt a bit bad afterwards because I was convinced that Sam was finished in T.O. I may be negative about Smitch's shortcomings in many of my posts, but I genuinely like the guy and hope that he makes strides with this line up this year and proves me wrong. The thing is, he had a way of discussing these issues with me without actually pointing the finger at Sam directly, but his thoughts were as clear as day (it's really difficult to explain.) The situation is what it is, regardless of how far-fetched it may sound. My cousin works at a nice restaurant on the Danforth and when I mentioned my meeting with BC, he mentioned to me that BC frequents the Danforth quite regularly and likes to talk shop with the common folk. This alone makes him really unique (and cool) in my eyes.

weird, AGM. Just weird. If BC had so little confidence in Sam, and second-guessed what he did, why did he renew HIS contract? On this blog, we did that a lot - and Marcia would come storming in and all hell would break loose (she once said my rants about Sam were like banning my drum alone in the forest - she had an active fantasy life, I guess).

Point is, why did he re-sign Sam? A lot of you point to coaching as the key for Barg's development, and Joey's. BC in that alleged conversation questioned Sam's gametime decisions as well.

What gives? There is not much left to over to put stock into, to justify re-signing the guy to be your coach.

BC resigned sam because he was coach of they year. wouldnt he look stupid if he didnt resign him. even though the east was extremely weak, we managed to get an above .500 season, BC basically HAD to resign mitchell, because of the award he was given. anyways there wasnt much other choices to sign any other significant coaches. mitchell won the award and therefore earned himself another chance at trying to improve this team

Very interseting discussion, but myself I think we're lucky to have a respectable team, with a tough, hard-working coach and players that don't think canada is a joke. Making the playoffs two years in a row is a byproduct of that consistency. I don't see how bailing on the GM would now help anything. Look at teams that have maintained respectibility, even through rebuilding phases and injury bugs, they've also maintained personnel and the systems they have created (spurs, jazz). It's chumps like the nets (byron scott) and the bucks (terry porter) who barely even let good coaches get things in place before they start from scratch just because some growing pains or injuries tank a season or two (and impatient media and fans).

Yes, but what is wrong with hiring an experienced coach with a winning track record?

Have the Raps EVER had an experienced coach? I wonder how Butch Carter would do with this group.

Wow gerry, comparing me to Marcia...nice! I tell a single story in the one and a half years that I have been member of this blog about a very interesting encounter I had and all of a sudden I am a fantastic storyteller. What I have always loved about this blog is the fact that we can share our thoughts and criticisms of the Raptors in a friendly and non-threatening environment. From my end, whether you believe me or not doesn't really matter because my first name isn't Assistant and my last isn't GM. I am actually an anonymous poster who you will probably never meet in your lifetime. We are a group of nameless and faceless fans that converse about our team on this open forum. I have no reason to impress you or anyone else. I actually never wanted to post that conversation in the past because I found that whole experience...just weird. I mean, the experience was awesome, but believing at the time that our coach was not impressing his boss and hearing him getting deconstructed was a bit tough to swallow. I truly believed that I was one of the few people that knew for a fact that time was running out on good old Smitch. It was for this reason that I never posted that conversation to begin with. Why would I goat at what appeared to be another person's demise? It had nothing to do with credibility or self-satisfaction. Frankly, I don't need validation from an unknown like yourself. I thought that a year and a half removed from this experience was a good time to mention it openly. I thought you guys would get a kick out of knowing how down to earth and bluntly honest BC was with me. I guess I was wrong. Again, although he criticized Smitch, he did it in a very sleek and almost unintentional sort of way. Anyway, I am through discussing this experience. I lived it, you didn't, case closed. I think you also missed the point about the conversation. Obviously he re-upped Smitch's contract, which is why I said that I was convinced at the time that he would be released. The Raps that year finished the season strong as tea time mentioned, Sam won coach of the year, which I'm really sure forced BC's hand a bit. I am sure many of us on this blog are pretty confident based on certain events that have transpired that BC and Smitch aren't exactly on the same page. In the future, I will keep these delusions to myself. Have a good night!

gerry says:
July 23rd, 2008
Yes, but what is wrong with hiring an experienced coach with a winning track record?

Have the Raps EVER had an experienced coach? I wonder how Butch Carter would do with this group.

Best U go back and see who the Raptors had as coaches before U say something like that!

I guess someone has never heard of a certain Lenny Wilkins before...you know that dude who coached the most wins in NBA history and ironically, most losses..

Tea time is right, BC had no choice but to resign Smitch. You simply cannot fire a guy who has just won the coach of the year.

I also think that BC and Smitch have worked out a lot of their differences. To me the JO trade was really about coach and GM getting on the same page as to what the team needed to do to win the important stuff. Also, Smitch has been getting better. I'm not saying that he doesn't still have issues, but he is learning.

oooops.

Sorry, AGM, I can see how you thought I was comparing you to Marcia. No, I merely meant that discussions about coaching were usually punctuated with her comments.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. And I agree with the comments you made about the coaching, BTW.

Yup, Davl, you are right. The comment about coaching was made off the top of my head. It has been so long since MLSE has had experienced coaches for any of its teams, that I made the innacurate conclusion.

Apologies all around.

Excellent conversations going on around here today!

Ease my Pain, I totally agree with you that Babcock was working to a plan and got cut off at the knees half way through it. He was accumulating draft picks and dumping salary. Before we hired BC we traded Rose and a 1st rounder to speed the plan up, but we would have accumulated more assets and had more cap room if we waited one more year. Turns out Babcock had a decent eye for talent (Aroujo was picked by that old Mick from Detroit).

I will however sing the praises of BC as I have many times here before. I don't think that every move he makes is brilliant - as McGateway clearly pointed out. But I do think he gives this Raps team solid leadership at the top and keeps those MLSE fools away. No GM is perfect, better to evaluate them not on 'how good they are' but on 'how bad they aren't'. Would you like to replace BC with Kerr, think Suns fans would like to have BC back? My point is that we could be doing (and have done) a lot worse.

AssistantGM - I enjoyed your story the first time a few months ago, and was valid to bring up again. I think BC knows that talking to some dude in the souvlaki line isn't going to lead to headlines. He works the media very well and has a genuine love for the game and can relate to fans. Dare I say he might have had a few drinks at the game too, which does also loosen lips.
Ages ago I was a bartender in Mississauga and we regularly had Cliff Fletcher come in for martinis. He wasn't exactly chatty, but was willing to talk shop quite candidly at the bar while he waited for his drink.

As for Smitch, I also have been a big critic. I do feel like this is a team that he should be able to coach. On paper it looks like a Smitch team - and it is good that we know what a Sam team should look like!

Gerry - I will never forget the Wilkins years, they were soul destroying. He was brutal and sucked the life out of the VC era. I don't care how experienced a coach is, I just want a winner. Smitch has proven to be a battler, but has a long way to go before he is labeled a winner.

David Blatt is my next choice for Raps coach should Sam fail this year. He has won all around world, in different leagues, playing different styles. HE is American but has great international experience. He seems to perfectly fit into the identity that BC is trying to build aroud the Raps. His background also reminds me a little of D'Antoni. That said, this is Sam's team now and I expect him to do much better than last year.

No worries gerry. I may have misinterpreted the Marcia comment. Mind you, I am curious to see if she is still following the Raps or has jumped onto the Pacers bandwagon.

I completely forgot about Lenny as well (I am not quite sure how, but...)

As for Babcock, I've said it a few times in the past, other than the VC trade, I didn't think that he did a bad job. I know the Carter trade was BRUTAL, but I still felt that VC forced his hand. Rob believed that the sooner you can eliminate the cancer, the better. The timing of it wasn't the best and trading for a player who tells you that he will never wear your team colours and would inevitably have to be bought out (for a ridiculous amount that will count against your salary cap) was absurd to say the least, but at this point, it is what it is.

I know that he didn't have a say in the Araujo decision. Hoffa was Jack McCloskey's pick from day one. He sold him to the Rap's brass as the incarnation of Bill Laimbeer. Rob was a bit of a scapegoat here. He didn't have the same control of the team that BC has. Could Babcock really go against one of the Raptor's advisers? I agree that you always pick the best player available, but I don't think he had any say here. The fact that Sloan stated that he would have drafted Hoffa as well took the sting off it a bit. I also respect Rob for taking the entire blame for that draft pick. He never once pointed the finger at anyone else. Babcock's other decisions weren't so bad either (except for Joey Graham). Mind you, I really think he has potential (maybe it’s the homer in me talking). I still remember that draft, waiting to hear Danny Granger’s name get called...but I digress. Anyway, Babcock had a plan, made it clear to the brass and fans what was involved, but wasn't given the opportunity to execute it. In the end, I am happy about this because it led us to getting BC. Whether we like it or not, he has built a winning culture around the team, and like Robert Archibald and others have stated, the JO deal was designed to satisfy his coach and put him in a better position to succeed. Did you see the smile on Smitch’s face at the JO presser? PRICELESS! I really hope I don’t have to hear Smitch as the FAN’s insider every Wednesday morning this year talking about the team just not making enough shats.......

With his scoring and defense & the Raps need for a starting SF why isn't Farmer being considered?

Is Giles coming to camp?