15 Questions with DraftExpress.com's Jonathan Givony

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Jun 24, 2008 12:00 AM EDT in NBA Draft

The rising star of Alexis Ajinca...just one of the topics discussed by Draftexpress.com's Jonathan Givony...

1. RaptorsHQ: Tell us what's gone on with you over the past year. Last year at this point you were doing a donations campaign and mentioned coming up with a business plan, what has gone on since that time?

Givony: Well there have been a lot of new things with Draft Express (DX). I really think we have finally established ourselves in the niche of the NBA Draft as one of the most reliable voices, if not the most. We have done a lot of travelling, expanding our network and going around the US and Europe attending different events. Some new opportunities have opened up which have shown us that there could be a real future with what we’re doing on the site. People are looking at us differently these days, that’s pretty obvious. The partnership with Yahoo and other media outlets, plus a consulting relationship we signed with a specific NBA team, providing some scouting tools aimed at making their job easier, all these things have shown us that the future could be very bright if we keep it up.

2. RaptorsHQ: You guys have really started to be a mainstream media outlet now as evidenced by your appearances on NBATV. Can you talk about the transition from alternative to mainstream?

Givony: We entered onto the scene at a good time. It was late 2003 when this all got started and the word blog was almost unknown to people in the mainstream. The internet has expanded considerably now—Web 2.0 and all that jazz-- and there is a lot more money streaming in which has allowed people to take things more seriously and make producing content on the internet their job. For us there was certainly an element of being at the right place at the right time, and as we continued to improve our product and learn what works and what doesn’t, we had an opportunity to establish ourselves at the forefront of this very tiny niche. People gradually accepted the fact that we are here to stay, especially the NBA people seeing us at every event-- they eventually realized that we knew what we were talking about and not just throwing stuff out there. We are not just a bunch of kids in their mom’s basements like everyone likes to say. We will see where this will take us. The internet is not going away anytime soon. Hopefully we can get even better and continue to work on doing stuff that no one else is--video content, great reports on all the most interesting players in the world, an incredible statistical database and much more. We want to continue to dig deep and provide things that the mainstream media doesn’t provide. It’s exciting and at the same time a lot of fun. I’m not exactly sure where this is going exactly, but that’s not something we need to be overly concerned about at this point.

3. RaptorsHQ: Do you find that a lot of other people have started to jump on the bandwagon? Was there resistance when you first came on the scene? When you attended a workout were you getting some icey stares and questions like "What are you guys doing here?"

Givony: Absolutely. I remember the first Chicago pre-draft workout I attended. Kirk Snyder was there amongst going up against Marquinhos and the Brazilian construction worker Cleiton Sebastiao, and not everyone was not happy we were there taking pictures and stuff like that. The guys from the Nets and Jazz were cool, but no-one really knew what to make of us. There are still some people who resist, mostly the old school guys who will never admit that they go on the site, but I am talking to at least half the league on a daily basis here, and a lot of them know that what we are doing is legit. They tell us all the time that we’re making their job easier. They know we can help them out and they want to help us out in return. People move up the ladder quickly in this business. Guys I started talking to in 04 and 05 who were lower level scouts, video guys, interns and others are now moving up, and some of them are even GM’s at this point, or will be quite soon.

4. RaptorsHQ: This years draft process has been a little different that years past, where there seem to be more "group" workouts where more than a handful of prospects and teams get together at the same venue to evaluate players rather than individual team workouts. Why do you think that is?

Givony: The window is shorter to evaluate these guys now. You used to be able to work them out all through May and even parts of April, but now you can only work them out after the pre-draft camp. That only leaves you three weeks, and agents don’t want their players working out every day because they want them fresh. They can only do 11-12 workouts at the most because it is a real grind physically. Some agents only allow their guys to do 6 or 7. More teams around at each workout is beneficial to everyone—why does a player need to audition 30 times when he can be seen by every team by doing just 5-6 workouts?

A perfect example of this is Minnesota and Houston. Almost all of their workouts have been together. It makes sense because the T’Wolves have two early second round picks and Houston has number 25. They are basically looking at the same pool of players. The agents also want that safety net for their clients. If a player doesn’t go in the first round then they know they have at least be seen by teams in the early second round too. So they workout for the 25 pick, but have that backstop, and you may even see a trade where Minnesota moves into the late first round.

5. RaptorsHQ: It seems like this year, more than ever players or more particularly their agents are trying to control the draft (i.e. where their clients workout). What are your thoughts on this?

Givony: That’s their job. An agent’s job is to minimize risk, control everything they can, and put their client in the best light possible. I don’t always agree with the way they do it necessarily—I actually think some agents hurt their players by being overly controlling, but they definitely have their players’ best interest at heart. Their job is often the exact opposite of the team’s job and at times the exact opposite of our job. They are trying to get their agenda out there, but if you do this for a few years, you are going to know these guys and how they operate. They are as much a part of the process as anyone. They know we are here to stay and if they lie to us we are not going to take them seriously next year. There are a few agents out there that I just don’t communicate with because I know they aren’t capable of being honest and realistic about their players’ situation. I think that may indirectly hurt their clients. We can provide the kind of exposure for their players that they want. We won’t sell our souls to do that, but we tell the truth. We don’t sugar coat things and we won’t do a 180 on a guy that we don’t like. In the end the agents are just doing what they have to do and that’s why they get paid the big bucks. Teams understand that, and they rely on them for information throughout the process a lot more than you might think.

6. RaptorsHQ: In terms of this year’s draft, you have had Rose on the top of your Mock for a while now. Do you think that is a deserving spot or is there any chance he is taking advantage of the fact that the PG position has suddenly found the spot light again in the NBA?

Givony: I think he is absolutely deserving of that spot. I think Beasley is also deserving of that spot based on raw talent. Timing plays a big part in this process, though, and so do perceptions. I don’t blame Chicago for taking Derrick Rose. Paxon’s job is on the line and he can’t screw up the number one pick. We’re talking about his career, his legacy here—you can’t afford to make a mistake. So that’s why I think Rose is going to go number one…that and obviously the fact that he is an unbelievable talent.

7. RaptorsHQ: A lot of people are saying how deep this draft is, but that much like last year the two best prospects are head and shoulders above the rest. How much better are Rose and Beasley projected to be than say O.J. Mayo or Bayless?

Givony: A lot depends on them to be honest with you, and especially how much they want to work. It also depends on the type of situation they are put in and their team-mates. The draft is an inexact science. We are taking a snapshot of where these guys are right now. Some of the guys have the mental fortitude to workout like crazy in the off-season until they become great players, and some won’t. If you look at Gilbert Arenas and Michael Redd, the common thread there is work ethic. It’s not something we can measure from where we are. It’s hard to project I believe, but it will play a big role in how most of these kids turn out.

If you recall we had some similar concerns about Andrea Bargnani when we first spoke two years ago. Now we don’t know everything, but with the snapshot we have right now, there is no question Rose and Beasley are the top two talents in the draft. A guy like O.J. Mayo, if he does have that maniacal Kobe Bryant like workout ethic he could get there, but I don’t think he has the same physical tools as say a Derrick Rose, which makes things a lot murkier. We all saw the kind of impact Rose can have on a game, and Mayo isn’t on that level yet.

I think there are good players after 1 and 2 and maybe even up to the early twenties. Regardless of where you are picking you can get someone good for sure.

8. RaptorsHQ: What was the Orlando pre-draft camp like this year?

Givony: It was great. I had a blast, met a lot of people, had some great conversations, saw some good players and just enjoyed my time there. The pre-draft camp is what it is, and we’ve learned not to come in there expecting it to be something it’s not. You are not going to see the lottery picks playing out there for four straight days, and that’s fine. We saw the lottery picks so much during the season I’m about ready to see some new guys anyway. I would rather watch players like Lester Hudson who played in a very small conference or Mike Taylor who played in the D-League and we didn’t get to evaluate him that much during the season. I thought all in all it was very helpful. It could be improved, and they will improve it, but I was extremely content. Where else are you going to find every single person in the NBA in one small building running around for four days?

9. RaptorsHQ: Based on everything you have seen this season, who do you think is the most over-rated prospect and who is the most under-rated?

Givony: If you would have asked me this two weeks ago I would have very easily have picked a couple of guys like Anthony Randolph, DeAndre Jordan, JaVale McGee. We’ve been pretty vocal about that I think if people have been reading between the lines. They are three guys I have had some concerns about, but over the past little while people are starting to share that sentiment, or so it seems, and they are now started to slip a little bit. Of course if you get a DeAndre Jordan or McGee in the early twenties, which was almost unthinkable a month ago, then that’s a whole different story. If these guys were to go in the mid to late lottery, from say 6 to 12, I think they will be overvalued. Overrated depends on where they are rated, which we don’t know quite yet, but these are guys I had concerns about based off the way they were being projected by some of our colleagues in the business. They could all turn out to be really good players, but they are just not worth a top ten pick and that was my concern when they were projected to go that high by other scouting services. People were saying that Jordan was Dwight Howard and Randolph should be drafted third, and that made me want to pull my hair out. You have to wonder if those people had actually ever seen these guys play. But hey, we’re just a bunch of hacks on the internet, so what do we know...

Underrated…if it were two weeks ago after some workouts in Vegas I would have said Joe Alexander. We saw him workout and we started to call him the sleeper of the draft. At that point he was projected to go somewhere between 15 to 22, now it looks like he is a top ten pick. So now he’s surely not underrated. We will see what happens with him because his rookie year production may not be good enough for him to go where he is projected to go now, but we will see. When you talk about work ethic you have to talk about Joe Alexander.

Other guys…I think Kosta Koufos. If he goes in the late part of the draft from 18-25 then he is a steal. I don’t see a lot of guys who are 7’1 with a 7’5" wingspan and that kind of skill level. He reminds me of Mehmet Okur. There are definitely some questions off the court like whether he is a good team-mate or humble enough and things of that nature, but if I am picking in the 20’s I am taking Koufos and laughing all the way to the bank.

Another guy is Nicolas Batum. If he were to go in the second round like some projections currently predict because of his heart issues, then he could be a huge steal. I always questioned in the back of my mind whether he was a top 10 or top 12 talent like he was projected to go last year, I always thought he would be a great role player, but in the second round it’s pretty much where do I sign? Same thing with Richard Hendrix. There are some question marks about his size and athleticism and whether he might have a bad wheel, but I love his talent and I think he could be big time and become the Paul Millsap of this draft. The guy produces like a lottery pick and has the intangibles of a champion. You can have your 6-11 jumping jack who can’t play a lick, and I’ll take my 6-8 beast any day and watch him whoop your lottery pick’s ass. Courtney Lee is also another guy that I really like. He’s super versatile and is going to surprise a lot of people. A 6-6 guy with a 6-11 wingspan who can shoot the ball like Shan Foster has to have a place in the league somewhere...It’s too bad Omer Asik likely won’t ever play in the NBA because we had him pegged as a sleeper from a mile away.

10. RaptorsHQ: The Raptors, unlike last season are back in the draft. The needs on this team are pretty clear. Based on projections there could be a variety of swingmen and project big-men available. You had the Raps taking Brandon Rush and now Robin Lopez. Why is that?

Givony: That’s a really tough call. I mean either one could be there at 15 or 17, and I pretty much change my mind on who I think Phoenix is going to take every five minutes. It could be Rush, it could be Lopez. All of the teams have one of those two pegged there unless, Rush goes 13.

11. RaptorsHQ: With the draft there is also a lot of trade discussion, have you heard anything on the Raps as of late? Fans expect to see TJ Ford moved, do you have any intel on that front?

Givony: I heard there are some discussions with Portland and the 13th pick for TJ Ford. I think it might have been nixed though because Portland may end up keeping the pick. Toronto is going to be very active in the trade market and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they got something done on draft night. There is no question that they need to get rid of TJ Ford. He’s obviously holding them back.

12. RaptorsHQ: One player the Raps expect to see at training camp this year is Roko Ukic, what are your thoughts on him at this point. Is he NBA ready?

Givony: I watched him a few times last year. He’s a talent but I’m not sure he is anything more than a back-up at best. I am not even sure if he is a rotation minute type guy at this point, especially under Sam Mitchell. He still has some work to do, even though I do like him. The problem is he is a point guard who can’t guard point guards and he is very wild at times with his decision-making. In terms of his shooting, it’s better based on the time he has spent in Italy. Playing for a Croatian coach in Rome was one of the best things that could have happened to him. Whether he is able to make the transition and all that we will see pretty soon. I’m more sceptical these days about European players making the transition—especially when we’re talking about guards. There are so many things that need to fall in place perfectly.

13. RaptorsHQ: There are three prospects that really interest us at the HQ, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Robin Lopez and Alexis Ajinca. Can you talk about each of them?

Givony: CDR is a guy who has slipped a little on some boards because he is not really a workout guy. He’s not a great athlete, he’s not a great defender, he’s not a great shooter-- he’s just a ball player. He’s a first team All-American, and there was a reason for that, even if that is a distant memory at this point. He was in the NCAA Tournament Championship game, and he can flat out put the ball in the net. He’s got moxy to his game that you can’t teach. He’s got good size and length and as a back-up he could be solid. I think the Raps maybe need a little better of a shooter, I’m not sure, but he’s not a consideration at 17 from what I understand, unless I’m completely off base. Maybe if Parker really goes to Greece than things change—I’m not sure.

Robin Lopez is a guy that has moved up a lot lately in the last month or so with workouts. First off he’s big. He is 7 feet tall, he’s long, he’s probably going to fill out, but he needs to add strength. He should be able to get to where he needs to be strength wise. His skill-level is nothing special at all, but he’s going to make a living as a hustle guy, a rebounder and a defender. Teams need that. There are some question marks about his intensity level—can he maintain it over an 82 game season? Sometimes it waivers, his overall awareness, sometimes he can be a bit of a space cadet. When looking at bigs out of the lottery it’s pretty rare to get a player like him if he really does pan out. I can see the appeal in taking a guy like Robin because it looks like he’s a pretty solid back-up at the very worst. He definitely should have stayed another year, though, which you could pretty much say about 8-10 big guys that are going to go outside the lottery.

Alexis Ajinca, he’s a guy who I am happy about seeing move up. His agent sent us his tape back in March, and we took a close look at him and were wowed. I went out and told people they need to take another look and they looked at me as if I were crazy. Look at what he did against Beasley last summer in the U-19s—this guy is no joke. If he were in college basketball he could be a top 10 pick. Easily. You look at his size-- he is 7’1 or 7’2" in shoes, with an unbelievable wingspan, and he’s skilled on top of that. He moves pretty well, he’s definitely not a stiff, he is aware of things going on around him on the court. When you look at a bunch of theses guys who are not in the lottery and are just big—they usually don’t have a clue. He’s not anywhere near a finished product, but he is pretty mobile and agile and could be a great presence defensively with that wingspan. He’s got other skills too-- he can shoot a little, he runs the floor and he can get up and finish. He has to work on his body and he probably will never be a very strong player but he could be ok. I heard his intangibles are fantastic too. He’s a great guy, great in the locker room, solid leadership qualities, and teams have raved about those characteristics. By no means is he a sure thing, but you take a risk on a guy like that. I don’t know if he will be around at 17 because Portland and Charlotte like him, but you have to look at him if he is. He could be there, but we will see. There are teams in the way. I don’t know if he would be a great fit beside Chris Bosh, but I don’t think you will find anyone at 17 who is necessarily going to be perfect.

14. RaptorsHQ: Do you think if CDR had a more traditional shot he would be higher on teams draft boards?

Givony: If he hit his shot more often he would be. It would help him, his shot is a concern. He is not a guy you give the ball to and let him go to work on every other possession like they did in Memphis. Ideally you want him to be able to park out in the corner and hit some 3’s too. Maybe he can do that and maybe he can’t because the NBA line is so much further back. The shot is a concern, but that’s something he can definitely improve on too.

15. RaptorsHQ: Last year you predicted that Boston would deal their pick. Any predictions on what goes down on Draft Night?

Givony: Honestly I am really not sure about what is going to happen between 3-6 at this point. I guess Mayo is going 3 and if he does I think we are ok, but if he doesn’t then forget about it. It will be a wild night. There are a lot of trades on the table and it will be good stuff. I can’t make any predictions on who will trade because it is all up in the air, but I can guarantee it is going to be fun.

Is it still too early to say that BC was wrong by going chosing Bargnani #1 overall?

Note - At this point in time our discussion turned away from the upcoming draft and looked back to that of 2006, when Toronto made Andrea Bargnani the top pick overall.

RaptorsHQ: Looking back at our interview two years ago we talked about Andrea Bargnani. You said he was overrated. Can you comment on where he is as a player right now and whether he can improve his game and play at a level that would be deserving of the number one pick in the draft? The people at Caliper said that his intangibles are off the charts and that’s why they recommended that Toronto draft him. Has that been the case?

Givony: When you looked at Bargnani two years ago you saw what looked to be a decent player. But I didn’t see the number one pick in him, I didn’t see that dog in him to be "that guy." If you are going to be number one, you better be the best player on your team. It shouldn’t even be close really. Just looking at his profile, I know the guys at Caliper who do the psychological testing had a lot of great things to say about him; how his upside was just off the charts and he was going to be one of the top centers in NBA history, and I think that turned out to be a bit of a nightmare for those guys. Because obviously just watching him and talking to people around him, that is not the case. They may have patted themselves on the back a little too early…

He is a bit of a particular guy in terms of what he wants to work on, what shape he is consistently in, and although I don’t want to write the guy off because I think he can be a decent player, I can say without a whole lot of uncertainty that he should not have been the number one overall pick. Whether he should have gone 5 or 10 or 15… that would have been more realistic for the kind of player he is. He is a very skilled player, he is a pretty good athlete with unbelievable size, he can really pass, but obviously he does not have that kind of aggressiveness and toughness that you need from the number one overall pick.

On the site we talk about how you want to wait before you judge a class. If a guy does well in his first year it’s not necessarily an indication that he’s going to be a great pro. If a guy does badly in his first year there is no correlation to the kind of player he is going to be. The jury is obviously still out, but those are my thoughts on Bargnani thus far.

RaptorsHQ: So the natural follow-up question then is "who should have been the number one that year?"

Givony: We were pretty emphatic at the time that Aldridge should have been the number one pick. There was really no question about that in my eyes. Look at our draft report card…I’m still shocked that the Bulls passed up on him too. There is an argument that Roy should have been number one, and it looks like the Blazers may have the top two players in that class, which we talked about the day after the draft. We liked Roy, but Aldridge was our guy.
That being said we loved Morrison and we have to mention that too. You take credit where credit is due and where you make a mistake you need to man up and admit making the mistake. I think that had not torn his ACL he could have shown something more and hopefully he recovers. Based on year one though he didn’t look great, but you want to give it more than one season. The jury is still out and it looks like he should not have been drafted #3, but we will have to wait and see.

A big thanks to Jonathan for the interview and the entire crew at Draftexpress.com for continuing to provide industry-leading coverage for us draft-fanatics. We look forward to chatting again around this time next year.

THE HQ

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Comments

Great job with the interview, and I love to hear Jonathan's take on raptors related questions. He and his team do a great job on their website, but they keep it pretty open (for obvious reasons)

I see a little bit of RaptorsHQ in Draftexpress...starting up a blog, moving up, making connection, getting media a pass. Maybe in a few years you guys will be scouting for the Raptors, and then moving up quickly onto GM.

Cheers Guys

by Scott on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great write up, but I have one question. How do you judge a guy if he did well his first year and badly his second year? I mean, hasn't that been the case with Barney?

by OneandDone on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think the bottom line with Bargs is that he is a bust as a number 1 (or even top five) pick. We Rap fans just have to face that fact and hope that he can at least develop in to a solid bench player/occasional starter.

His passion/work ethic will determine if he ever reaches his potential (as with everyone)...and he doesn't have much, if any. Lets just hope that he can at least fix his friggin' shot in the off-season!!!

by JayElZee on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

parker going to greece???? Did I read that right?

by utes on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

No offence to Givony, but the "Parker going to Greece" thing was just a unsubstantiated rumour which Sportsnet later retracted.

by OneandDone on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

OneandDone, it was in some European paper with a quote from Parker. I don't remember the exact quote, but I posted it a couple of days ago.

by Zona on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Is there anyway the Raps could make a move for the younger Gasol? He is quite different from his brother, a lot more physical than finesse, I like to label him as a poor man's Andrew Bynum. He's been this year's sensation of the spanish league (overall MVP, and topped Sabonis record for 11 Player of the Week awards in a single season). Plus he is young and can be signed quite cheap: he is reportedly looking for a 3 years $9 million contract.

Anyway I guess I'm just daydreaming (I don't see what the Raps could offer to Memphis for his rights) but he'd make a perfect fit for the Raps alongside Bosh.

by Sergi P on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I’m not going to hammer this issue any more (last time I swear) but in yesterday’s post there was a bit of talk about how Colangelo gets a bad rap regarding his favouritism of Euro’s and shooters. Well the comments by Givony simply poored salt on this festering wound. Bargnani was not a top 5 pick in that draft, we as Raptor’s fans new it, the media new it, but more importantly all the experts new it. That is why BC gets a bit of heat (deservedly so in my humble opinion), because he fell in love with a basketball ideology, and closed his eyes to the facts. In fact, so much so, that when he tried to deal down (say to the 4th or 5th pick to take Bargnani there BECAUSE HE WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE) and failed, he said "screw it I’m taking him at No. 1 anyways, because he thought the game had changed so drastically. Problem was that Pheonix Suns style basketball was an aberration and not the wave of the future, an exception to the rule. This was bad judgement. Don’t get me wrong BC’s judgement is usually spot on and he’s an excellent GM, but he (like everyone else) has his flaws.

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

MAS - You make some good points and after the draft and prior to free-agency, we're going to look at this topic a bit more closely.

As for Parker, you really can't just take foreign reports that have been "translated" on places like hoopshype at face value. (That's why we usually ask Sergi to fill us in!) Who knows what context the quote was from and if the translation etc is even correct in some cases.

PS - Surprised Bargsbust isn't all over the last two articles...

by Franchise on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I disagree, MAS. Hindsight is 20/20 MAS. At the time Bargs was drafted #1, there wasn't much outrage among the media or the fans. He was pretty much an unknown entity.

After Bargs' first season, I didn't hear many complaining about the choice of Bargs as #1. In fact, he was lauded for his mental toughness and his unwavering confidence. Its easy to look back now after a disappointing season and say "we all knew it all along that Bargs was an awful choice".

by SonicSuper on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Not buying the "hindsight is 20/20" argument SonicSuper. This is not about hindsight. Name me one draft expert/pundit that had Brgnani as the top talent in that draft other than Colangelo. Why did Colangelo try to deal down to take Bargnani later if he thought he was the legitimately the top talent in the draft class?

Anyway, I think you may be missing my point. My last post was not so much an indictment of Bargnani as how Colangelo’s judgement may at times have been clouded by his personal philosophy and how he thinks basketball ought to be played.

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Mas – I must agree with your comments.
SonicSuper – If my memory serves me correctly, the Bargnani selection was still being questioned after his first season as his skills to play the centre position was openly recognized as very under-developed. How often is #1 pick classified as a long term project? His passion and commitment to improve his game sets him apart from the player he is so often compared… the Caliper psychological test really screwed up in his case.

He may be a more complete player next season but I doubt he comes close to the high standard expected of him. This error still does not diminish my confidence in Colangelo’s management of this team. We are fortunate to have him.

by OldSchool on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

... And another thing, if the freaken guy from some blog (no disrespect to Givony and Draftexpress) knows that insiders were suspicious of Bargani's attitude, work ethic and stuborness, how can we excuse BC for not knowing this? This info was available BEFORE the draft, so this is not hindsight.

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

There was no consensus #1 in Bargs' draft class. Which is why BC could not trade down. No one was putting much value on the # 1 pick.

You guys are making it sound as if it was common knowledge that Bargs had a poor work ethic going into the draft. But I don't recall seeing anybody at all question his commitment or attitude until about half way through last year. In fact, his work ethic used to be praised! This is very much hindsight.

Here are some tidbits from a DraftExpress article I remember reading back in '07:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Andrea-Bargnani-154/

"His strength is underrated and he is not soft. The common conception of European big men always trying to avoid contact does not apply to Bargnani. He is scrappy and has had to work on dialing back his physicality on both sides of the ball... He is a tough player with an obviously competitive attitude that manifests itself in his willingness to be physical with opposing big men."

And this:

"All indications are that he’s a hardworker who is very much dedicated to achieving his goal of becoming an NBA star, which is the type of work ethic you’d expect from a player who was almost a complete unknown even in his home country three years ago. As mentioned, his court demeanor is excellent, as he’s a mature player who understands the game, executes well, plays under control and is relatively mistake free despite his age."

MAS, I totally agree with you on most points. And particularly your point that BC is usually spot on, although he does have his flaws like anyone else. I'm just not convinced yet that his philosophy is fundamentally flawed. It's just that he hasn't been successful in finding the right players in Toronto to properly implement his philosophy.

by SonicSuper on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

J. O'NEAL trade is done!
(according to Yahoo Sports)

TJ+Rasho+#17+bench player for JO.

I like that Colangelo took a risk here -- this team was in serious danger of being 41-41 for 2 more seasons and losing in the first round each time. Whether the Raps go up or down with JO, I like that we're getting a solid rebounder and shot blocker, and that we can actually boast 2 recent All Stars in the starting 5.

by BC on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

if the JO trade is done I just wonder how Bosh will like being the franchise player and getting so much money than JO? Could it be a problem?

by Davl on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AmzquGLJkYwqFZnZVx42Rmc5nYcB?slug=aw-jermaineonealtraded062508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Here's the link to the Yahoo report and while there's nothing else out there yet on the subject, from BC's chat with the media this afternoon it sounded like a few things were pretty close. This might be just the first to come...

by Franchise on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

If the JO trade is true, I really don't understand why we have to give up our pick. I wasn't too excited about the prospects available at 17, but TJ, Rasho, and whomever should be enough to get a guy who has serious injury issues and a MASSIVE contract. Who would offer more?

by the styling assassin on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

OK, I like this deal especially after reading JO interview:
http://slamonline.com/online/2008/04/speaking-with-jermaine-oneal-and-danny-granger/

by OldSchool on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Thrilled to see TJames out of town. Just not happy that we dealt the pick.

Have a feeling BC has more moves up his sleeve? Hopefully one of them nets us a draft pick.

by SonicSuper on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

We do have a problem in that we don’t have any young talent developing to take over in two years for JO or in other key positions.

If you look at the past drafts:

2008 – No pick?
2007 – No pick
2006 – Bargnani
2005 – CV (gone) & Graham (as good as gone)
2004 – Araujo (Russia)
2003 – Bosh
2002 – Kareem Rush (who?)
2001 – Bradley (nice try)

Who are the young guys we are developing? Bosh is a cornerstone but we have missed out on draft after draft. We can no longer afford to trade draft picks. I certainly hope that BC gets back in the draft with another move. Portland bought the hornets 1st round pick, so these options are out there.

by Zona on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Draft shmaft! Looks like that O'neal trade is going down after all! Again, so much for the BC Euro bias, I am sure we could have take Batum at 16.

It is definitely a risk, but I like the move. Really, we are risking our back up PG, our back up C and a mid 1st round pick for an All star C... if healthy. Big if, but that is why we are getting him. I wonder if we'll be getting a 2nd round pick in the deal too...

If the move goes through, it also makes the team better in so many ways. Bargs becomes the gunner, instant offence off the bench - much better situation for him to develop in. Jose is the clear cut starter - much better situation for him and the team. Kapono now makes sense as the starting SF - much better situation for him too. Moon will be coming off the bench - much better. etc.

Since I am a fan, I am going to allow myself to be excited about this and not worry too much about O'Neal getting hurt. I did check out that Indycornrows site, and although many of their fans were looking forward to rebuilding, I read a piece about how hard JO is working this summer and how it is the first off season in a while that he has been fully healthy and able to train. I don't think Bosh will have any problems lining up beside JO, Bosh has his max contract.

BTW I have your back on this debate Supersonic. I admit Bargs was no great prize for a #1 pick, but it was a weak class. I seem to recall the talk of Chicago taking Bargs if Toronto didn't. Aldridge would look good in a Raps uni, but he is exactly like CB4 and we already had CV at the time too. I admit I was interested in seeing these three together in a huge front line, but it didn't work out that way. We should be patient with Bargnani, a lot of people are jumping off the bandwagon now, but even before this season started there were a lot of people on this site that thought he would be better than Bosh. You will learn patience young MAS-hopper! (I hope someone remembers that from Kung Fu)

by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

P.S. The fan has not broken from their CFL talk.

by Zona on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think we gave up the draft pick because we had to. I trust BC didn't just offer it. JO is a much better player than TJ. His contract expires earlier, and will free up some cap room for one hell of a FA year!

Zona, our team is still very young despite not having a 1st rounder last year, or maybe this year too. But no point in having youth for youth's sake. Although I do agree about NO selling their pick, I don't know why every team in the league isn't lined up to buy it. Or how they decide who to sell it to. You would think if it was only money, why not sell it to a team in the East just in case. Maybe BC has another move in him, but I think he just spent most of his chips.

Can we start talking about where the MLE goes now? I'm thinking Duhon, but BC never seems to do what seems obvious. I LOVE THIS TIME OF YEAR!

by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I'm getting too excited here.

Thinking of Jose and bosh running those high pick and rolls, now with JO down on the low post to create more options! Damn I hope he stays healthy! What a help he will be on D! And if you don't think he adds toughness, he'll come into the stands and punch you in the face!

by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I also feel like BC is starting to figure out what type of coach Sam is, and what type of players he likes. JO is a Sam player. Bargnani was not. It might just be how the nba is changing after Boston's success and the decline of the run and gun suns. Either way the team is becoming more Sam like... I'm not his biggest fan, but if you are going to hire a coach for a multi-year contract, it helps to give him the players that best suit his strengths.

by LAs Only on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

STYLING ASSASSIN: I wasn't too excited about the prospects available at 17, but TJ, Rasho, and whomever should be enough to get a guy who has serious injury issues and a MASSIVE contract. Who would offer more?

I couldn't agree more. I like the trade, for many of the reasons cited, such as taking a risk, avoiding mediocrity and the potential upside, but I see no reason for us to include the first rounder for such a question mark. I mean, JO has a lot of miles on the 'ole NBA odometer, having played over 700 games on his wonky knees. As an aside, he's also already banked 109 million dollars. Not too shabby, but perhaps not the greatest for motivation. Bill Simmons did a much better job expressing the worst case scenario during his chat with The Chad (No relation to TJ) Ford:

Ford: We keep reading Jermaine O'Neal is on the block (though I'm not feeling T.J. Ford). What is the best possible deal you can get for him? I was stunned the Heat got Shawn Marion for an overweight, 35-year-old Shaquille O'Neal. Could the Pacers do even better?

Simmons: You're baiting me again. First of all, they took Marcus Banks' awful contract in the deal, which you neglected to mention. Second, the Suns could have absolutely beaten the Spurs in Round One (how does that series turn out if Duncan doesn't make the Miracle 3?), and for all we know, they may have been the best team in the West after the El Foldo that the Lakers pulled in the Finals. Shaq at least brings some stuff to the table; Jermaine hasn't been relevant as a basketball player in three years. I can't imagine that Bryan Colangelo would be dumb enough to deal for him. I just think O'Neal is done -- he's like Antoine Walker to me, a guy who is 31 going on 45.

When it is put that way, the potential poo-poo platter that is the T.J.O'Feal trade would be made all the more bitter if the 17th pick ended up being someone who could've really helped. On the other hand, let's not forget about TJ's alarmingly high potential for employment-related paralysis. At the end of the day, in the worst case scenario I see us being about the same or somewhat worse than this season, with the potential for a high lottery pick if all goes wrong (an added bonus) and a 23 Million dollar contract that will expire at a time when everyone is supposedly dying to have cap space. As we've seen, mediocre talent ain't gonna cut it, so why not role the dice? I also love the potential inside-outside combo with Bosh, not to mention that JO brings defensive help that Rasho, god bless his hard working Slovenian soul, just couldn't. If we didn't include the pick, I'd be ecstatic, but I'll settle for "looking forward to training camp while praying to a non-denominational god that either a: JO's knees hold up or b: stem cell research invents perfect knee replacements".

by RaptorsAddict on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

SonicSuper, I guess we can agree to disagree… nice work on the research regarding the quotes, to back up your argument, kudos. But it can’t be dispute that a little bit of tunnel vision may have crept in with the Bargnani pick, especially sighting the fact that the original plan was to trade down. Especially when the guy your quoting is saying that he and others saw this coming.

However, as I mentioned in my post yesterday, if the O’Neil deal goes through it represents a huge departure for BC on his philosophy of the game and I applaud him for seeing the light and not continuing down the same road. I’m a HUGE fan of this deal. We now have (if the deal is legit) arguably the best starting 4/5 combo in the East, at least on par with Wallace/McDyse or KG/Perkins. Worst case scenario, O’Neil struggles through one season and we then have the biggest expiring contract in the league for trade considerations!

Zona, LOL! Don’t hold out hope for the Fan… Every day on the commute home I tune in to see what the topic of discussion is and it’s like freaking Groundhog day (The movie where the same day gets repeated over and over again)!! The same conversation about the stupid Leafs… pathetic.

LA’s only, couldn’t agree more. The wild card here is that the defensive structure that can be built around O’Neil and Bosh in the paint must have Sam Mitchell DROOLING!!

Man I’m having flash-backs from when O’Neil punched out the guy that looked like Turtle from "Entourage" during the Mallace at the Palace! LOL

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I just read on sportsnet that there were rumors that the raptors were looking at swapping TJ for Rip Hamilton?! Does anyone think that's legit? I would have loved to see him in a raptors uniform.

by Tmac on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think I just wet my pants.

by axl on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Oh and by the way the year that O'Neil comes off the books, 2010 will be the ultimate free agent season of all time:

Notable Players with opt out or early termination options:
Wade, LeBron James, Pierce, Nowitzki, Yao Ming, Kobe Bryant, Richard Jefferson, Michael Redd, Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry (HAHA JUST PLAYING), Amare Stoudemire

Notable Unrestricted Free Agents:
Joe Johnson, Anderson Varejao, Tracy MacGrady, Steve Nash (great way to end his career, Canadian victory tour backing up Calderone)

I'm sure BC has considered this.

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Hey Mas - you forgot to add Bosh to that list. Believe Melo as well.

by Acie on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Acie, I didn't add Bosh because I don't even want to consider the possibility of bosh being a free agent. As for Melo, I believe he signed a long term deal.

by MAS on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Onealtrade-080625

Winners all around apparently.

Bosh stated on the Swirsk show that he would really like to have JO playing on the raptors because of his defence, rebounding and shot blocking.

Calderon will be happy because he'll be the starting PG.

Andrea will hopefully thrive as the first big man off the bench.

If and thats a BIG IF JO's knees stay healthy for the first year then this was a great deal for the Raptors.

If they don't....who are our big men? Bosh, Andrea and Kris?? Thats a scary thought....

The medical staff might actually turn out being more important than our coaching staff.....

This deal will either be a Home Run or an easy out...no base hit here (can't believe I used a baseball analogy here because I really can't stand it)

by wtf on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Oh man BC have guts to gamble. Unfortunately last few GMs who gambled on aging big mans failed pretty miserably.

On another note, we need cheap help pretty bad now. I like Delfino, think he is the first I would like to see of the bench last year. But if he is rumored to be gone, who is our back up 2 since Parker is not exactly young. And who will be our back up point guard.

by JYD on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

so with Bosh and JO playing the 4 5 positions what do We have?????
I figure 1 and 1/2 good knees between them!!

Medical staff indeed could be our biggest asset!

by Davl on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Desperate times call for desperate measures but a trade for JO is way beyond desperate, more like boerdering on lunacy. I'm with Simmons on this and hoped BC was not dumb enough to pull something like this.
JO has bad wheels, bad attitude and too much money to be concerned about playing winning basketball, hell I'd take Jerome James over JO.
This trade just does not sttle well with me. If BC is aiming for cap space he can just let Delfino expire this year by low balling him and find a D league replacement at the min. Next year Baston, Rasho, Parker, Graham and Moon all expire so there is no need to spend 1/3 of the cap on one player who hardly remembers his prime never mind play up to it.
Jo trade is just too stupid to contemplate. Has IT's mind taken over BC's body?
Bag all seven Carlin words and repeat twenty five time.......

by ZoneD on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I'm not a big fan of this trade since the Raptors have traded away all 3 of their biggest trade pieces (Rasho, TJ and their pick)in a trade for 1 player with an injury history. In my opinion, with the Raptors' expiring contracts (Rasho, Parker, Baston, Graham, etc.), TJ, Kapono and their first round pick, the team had an opportunity to make 2 significant trades to acquire 2 players - 1 a wing player to address the team's perimeter defense and scoring and a physical big man.

With those assets, there is no reason why the Raptors could not have put together a package of players and picks between now and next year's trade deadline to get 2 of a group of Diaw, Maggette, Wilcox, Haslem, Outlaw, Dunleavy etc. Personally, I think the additions of players like Maggette and 1 of Haslem/Wilcox would have made this team better then the acquisition of O'Neal.

Another favorable deal would have been a trade for Marion with the same package - I've got to believe that would have interested Miami.

The biggest issue with the O'Neal trade is that the Raptors have still not addressed their glaring need at the SF/SG position. Moon/Kapono/Parker are a weakness which needs to be upgraded.

Unless BC has one other move in the cards, which would seem hard to believe since he's got few remaining assets to move, how exactly are the wing needs addressed.

If BC can pull off another trade to get a better wing player then the O'Neal trade makes sense. Perhaps, the Raptors should think about moving Bargnani and Parker and filler to NJ for Richard Jefferson. The Raptors may as well make one other move since this trade looks to be an "all in" move. Go get a wing player and then this team will be a legitimate contender in the East.

by Bball on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Mas, counter argument:
While I do not want to give the idea I am defending Andrea's last season please remember, from January on 2006 till he got ill he was the second best raptors player and possibly the best in the 2006/7 playoff as a rookie and, at least in that time frame (playoffs) he seemed to have it more than Chris (who did not do wonders in these playoffs either). He came into 2007/8 season with around 20 points and 9 rebounds than something got broken and we just got glimpses of him ever since. MAS note that *nobody* has taken Andrea's game away, just hes started failing things he was doing automatically up to that point. At the same time he has come up with pretty good man to man defense, better than Chris'. Chris is better at help defend, Andrea is (far) better at man to man defense against a center, in his first year of his life he is asked to do so. In a disastrous season he still has a ball handle far better than Chris' and he is a way faster (you can ask Chris to drive to the basket starting from the three point line if you like to have a comparison). I could make more examples but the general point I wanted to make is the guy just had a bad season possibly he had some sort of personality clash with Smitch and rightfully *both* have been told to do something about it and both will be kept on a short leash. I believe if the problem remains, Smitch will be the one shown the door, just because getting another coach is easier than getting another Andrea.

by renato on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Brian did what he had to do,....the only thing that I dont like is giving up the 17th.
We are sending over 4 for 1....I'm the first to admit that we had to toughen up,but I hope he aint chasing anybody down from a wheelchair !! Does this give us any room for a slasher ?
Rumors about Parker,and Delfino are somewhat of some concerne.
Has rucko been firmed up to come over yet ?

by d279 on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Final Trade:

Raps get: O'Neal and the 41st pick

Pacers get: Ford, Nesterovic, Baston and the 17th pick

(*source: ESPN)

by Aaron on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

41 st !!! ...what are we getting a gym bag ?

by d279 on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

biggest concern: if the raptors still want a great second unit we need to have a great long and big backup pg. last season there was no cohesiveness with the second unit and the point guard. also calderon seems to disappear once in a whiel

by thafooz on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

MAS: Ok. DraftExpress knew it, you knew it, all the experts knew it. I guess everyone knew Bargs was an awful pick except for BC and myself. The fact remains that in that draft class you could have asked 5 different GM's who the #1 pick should be and you would have got 5 different answers. The fact BC explored the possibility of trading down doesn't prove squat.

Certain things about this deal concern me. Best case scenario is we have a healthy JO and a great front court. But is that good enough to win a championship? In 2 years, JO's deal will expire, and the Raps will be back to where they are right now. Bosh (hopefully), JC, and money to spend. There are no young guys on this team with upside save Bargs who is a huge question mark. And money to burn doesn't guarantee the right FA signings. The future looks very hazy.

BC used to have an obvious plan to win the championship. Does he still? If he does, I don't see it.

by SonicSuper on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Last year we were 3 deep at every position, mind you it didn't get us anywhere. Right now we are 2 deep at every position if you think Roko is coming over.

C - O'Neal, Bargnani
PF - Bosh, Humphries
SF - Kapono, Moon
SG - Parker, Delfino?
PG - Calderon, Roko?

Looks like we better go back to those Jamario Moon FA Camp articles and see what is there to fill out the roster. I don't think we should be depending on Roko to be a reliable back up, so this is where we should spend the bulk of our mid-level exception. Hopefully we can find a back up point that can play solid D. We also better find a big we can go to if JO does go down. And we are still a little thin on the wings, though I don't think we need a slasher te same way we used to.

Basically we are needing to add depth everywhere and we don't have a lot of cash to do it. Fortunately, I do think BC is very good at finding these type of players. Cheap, unsung, little known Moon types that can come in at little cost. Hopefully we can buy another draft pick too.

by Robert Archibald on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

oops,forgot about Joey G, but can you blame me? Maybe he can have a break out season next year.

by Robert Archibald on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I think bargnani will benefit from having o'neal to practice against rather than fellow softie nesterovic. Hopefully, bargnani takes it as a challenge also and get his fire going a bit.

Going to need another big if baston goes, maybe we can get rasho back if he's waived since they're dumping salaries.

by axl on Jun 26, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions