Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post-Game: Deep Breathing

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Apr 6, 2008 12:00 AM EDT

From celebrity status in Toronto to untradeable in New Jersey - the career of Vince Carter...

This really wasn’t supposed to be the way things went down.

This was supposed to be another strong regular season by the Toronto Raptors, an opportunity to advance beyond the first round of the NBA playoffs, and a chance for further growth and development from the likes of Andrea Bargnani, Chris Bosh and TJ Ford.

Instead, as Raptors’ fans, our patience has been tested to the max lately as we watch a team that looks as rudderless as a broken vessel at sea.

A team we might add, that is slowly sinking as low as it can possibly go in the Eastern Conference playoff standings; eighth spot.

With their 99 to 90 loss to the New Jersey Nets on Saturday night, Toronto suddenly finds itself only two games above Atlanta for the eighth seed, losers of 15 of their past 21, and under .500 for the first time since November.

The expression "backing into the playoffs" is almost an understatement at this point.

So instead of writing an immediate fire and brimstone recap, something which I admittedly was halfway through penning, I decided to take a few steps back and collect my thoughts.

Once again last night we saw a Raptors’ team that came out flat, failed to get any production from its bench, and allowed their perimeter to be breached time and time again by the likes of Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson; the two combined for 60 points on Saturday eve.

In particular, Carter was at the top of his game, miraculously after sitting out the previous match with an ankle injury. For fantasy owners of Vince, they’ve seen a player who suddenly has taken the reins for his club post-Jason Kidd, and watching him play last night made me revisit the Vince Carter era in Toronto. For a while, Carter looked like the key to the promised land before management realized he needed to go and a complete overhaul was in order.

The reality of the NBA is that you don’t retool unless you think you are a piece or two away from doing big things, say like winning the NBA Championship. This is the mentality of current Suns GM Steve Kerr obviously. The Suns were a great team with Nash, Marion and Amare but the thought was obviously that some retooling was required to get over the hump. Hence the Marion for Shaq deal (with spare parts). Whether it works or not we will have to wait and see.

The Suns have a chance.

On the flip side the Nets have none.

Yes they’re still "mathematically alive" for the playoffs but what does that get them – a date with Boston? Therefore it makes no sense to me that New Jersey would deal Kidd for a bunch of spare parts (except for Harris) and draft picks and think this will help them obtain anything but a permanent state of mediocrity.

ie - it only makes sense if they deal Vince Carter…

Well…the trade deadline has long come and gone and Vince remains a Net.

It makes sense for the Nets to rebuild from the ground up. They move to Brooklyn in the near future and if they had dealt Carter for picks and youth (and cap filler) they would have started the process now and increased their chances of building a better product before changing locals. Their version of the big three amounted to very little in terms of playoff success and the team’s inability to find consistent front-court help and production essentially did them in. It had recently become clear that Carter, Jefferson and Kidd were not a true recipe for success. The result of this lack of success was Kidd approaching the front office and asking for a trade.

Former Badger Harris was a nice grab for New Jersey - but what do they do with Vince now?

And Kidd asking for a trade was no real surprise. Even prior to this season there were always rumblings that he was not happy in NJ. On a variety of occasions he called his team-mates out. He went to the press and publicly started that he wanted more help and more consistent effort. Of course many people thought his tough love was intended for the player Toronto fans love to hate, Vince Carter. It seemed well directed as Vince was starting to garner a reputation of not giving 100% all the time, and this newsflash wasn’t coming solely from north of the border for once.

Kidd grew frustrated and who can blame him? We all know that Vince has all the talent in the world. His athleticism is off the charts and when he gets that "look" in his eye he has proven to be unstoppable and one of the few players that can take over a game. The problem is that "look" is often missing as is the killer mentality demonstrated by players with similar skill sets. Players like Kobe Bryant. In many ways over his career Vince has been hesitant to harness his talent. He has shied away from being the "guy" and on more than one occasion has been accused of just not getting it. Carter just has a laisser-faire attitude. It is not something new to Toronto fans and it looks like in the end Kidd realized that this sort of attitude wouldn’t help get him where he so badly wants to go…the Finals.

Which is why watching Carter post-up, attack the rim, work inside and out and finish with 32 points, seven rebounds, five assists, two steal and a block has to be the supreme tease for Lawrence Frank and the New Jersey brain-trust.

These numbers are the type that VC should be putting up on a regular basis, not when it’s essentially "too little, too late" for his team.

Of course if we travel back in time to when Carter was originally dealt to NJ it looked like a steal for the Nets. Vince was a new man. Right from the get go he started playing with great passion and the chemistry with Kidd was instant.
Fans and critics alike crucified Rob Babcock for dealing Vince for fifty cents on the dollar. Doug Smith has called it arguably the worst trade of all time (a notion I heavily disputed in the past).

Babcock responded to the critics by saying that a deal for Alonzo Mourning (bought out), Eric Williams, Aaron Williams and two first round picks was the best deal on the table. Many wondered how this was possible. The best deal for a multiple time All-Star? It was hard to believe. It was only a few years prior that there were rumblings of a Vince for Allen Iverson deal.

Now looking back with the evidence before us now you have to wonder if that indeed was the best deal on the table. Why? Well first off, why else would you trade your star player to someone in the East, let alone the Atlantic Division? Look at the blockbusters as of late. How many times have you read that teams won’t move guys to other teams in their division? KG changed conferences. Marion changed conferences. Iverson changed conferences. Ray Allen the same.

Second, if you’re Rob Babcock, a new GM, you are undoubtedly looking for the best deal. You are looking under every rock and searching in every place imaginable trying to turn-up the best deal. There is tremendous pressure on you as a new GM who right out of the gate is being forced to deal the best player that had ever donned a Raptors jersey. Further, you have to take that deal to the MLSE Board. Toronto fans know all too well how involved the Board can be in making decisions. You think they didn’t ask Babcock if there was anything better out there?

Last, let’s get back to why fans hated Vince so much in the first place. Prior to being traded he threw in the towel. He dogged it. He gave up. He showed every character flaw possible. He was the anti-franchise player. Did Babcock actually have the foresight to shed his rose coloured glasses, something many of the general public (yes, those same ones who kept voting him in as a starter in the All-Star games) early on could not do? I mean this was the player that put the Toronto Raptors on the map! The 2000 dunk contest. The sick dunk over Fred Weiss in the Olympics. He was our guy and even with his flaws, injuries, and pouty faces we still loved him. We wanted more for the franchise guy. The thing that no one seemed to ask at the time of course was whether indeed Vince Carter WAS a franchise guy. We as fans didn’t want to ask ourselves that question and I, like many, assumed he was.

Is it possible that at the time many NBA GM’s didn’t share those same feelings as the fans in Toronto? Maybe, just maybe, the leagues GMs already knew what Vince Carter was all about. They had no reason to wear rose coloured glasses and maybe those on the inside already knew Vince was never going to be "the guy" and hence the offers were what they were.

And ironically, New Jersey may have recently found themselves in the same situation as Toronto when they looked to see what their options were with Vince. What could they have gotten in return for an on-and-off player with an albatross contract who has never advanced as far as the conference finals?

No suitors for half-man half-amazing?

The question I have is whether Carter could fetch more than two first-round picks, two role players and an aging veteran with a large contract. How did I come up with that formulation? You got it. That’s what the Raps got in return from New Jersey and I would have a hard time believing that the Nets could get more currently for Vince than what Toronto did just a few short years ago.

Think about it this way, did anyone notice that suddenly without the fans’ vote Carter was not even discussed for inclusion in the All-Star game? And that after only a few months after signing that big extension, there was plenty of trade talk concerning his future with the Nets?

So to see him play like he did last night, even as his team underachieves once again, must put the Nets in a bit of pickle. If the team is not careful, an improved Philadelphia, Boston, New York (simply by way of Donnie Walsh’s hiring) and hopefully Toronto, could suddenly have the Nets going from the penthouse to the outhouse in less than two seasons.

The problem is, with the way the Raptors have played lately, Colangelo and co. know they can’t simply rest on their laurels. This club needs help and in many ways, this off-season can’t come soon enough. Toronto is struggling in every sense of the word as even the club’s two traditional go-to weapons fell flat on Saturday. Chris Bosh was curiously ineffective against the much smaller Trenton Hassell (Lawrence Frank should be teaching classes in defending against CB4 at this point) and Toronto’s long-range weaponry, the team’s forte, was a water-gunesque 13.6 per cent effective.

But as we’ve said before, maybe rock bottom is what this team needs?

It’s definitely not an optimum time to hit the lowest of lows but perhaps better that and a clean slate come playoff time than muddling through the rest of the season at a .500 level.

And muddling is perhaps putting it kindly as seeing a Celtics team missing its big three beat a Bobcats’ club that victimized Toronto only a night before doesn’t exactly scream "yes, the Raptors are moving in the right direction!"

So for now, we’re going to take a few deep breaths here at the HQ.

On Tuesday we’ll be providing our latest stock watch with the conclusion of the NCAA tourney tomorrow night, and Wednesday we’ll take a long and hard look at another must-win match, this time against a Milwaukee Bucks team that probably won’t hit 30 wins this year.

Let’s hope the Raptors made good use of its day off today and took a few deep breaths of their own.

Because if they lose the next bunch of matches to Milwaukee, New Jersey, Miami and Chicago, we’re all going to need Lamaze classes.

HOWLAND

Sign Franchise and Howland up for classes if the losing continues into the playoffs...

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Comments

Interesting take Howland. Even better, that post took my mind off the travelling circus known as the Raptors for a minute.

by Branden on Apr 6, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Its getting harder and harder to watch them play. I cant count how many times per game I cringe at a bad shat or mental fart. Bargnani, Bargnani....Im taking deep breaths with this guy he's 22 and Im 23 and I feel pressured at work. Hes an elite athlete under the intense spotlight and scrutiny that comes with being selevted 1st overall. This guy would have progressed alot better imo if he had been selected 5th or so (though I dont think he would have dropped that low,), seems the pressure is understandably killing him. I expected to see flashes of great pontential this year, which I have, but I was hoping for quite alot more of them. Hopefully next year hell be more acustomed to his life/role/status etc. and be able to focus on stepping up his game. This guy has what it takes to be a killer, maybe smitch just need to tie him down and pluck his eyelashes or stick him in a cage and feed him raw meat. Really anything to get this kid to bring that cold-killer intensity. I dream of a Garnett-Bargnani staredown in the conference finals. I also dream of life with Jessica Alba *sighs*

by rogersguy on Apr 6, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

talk about a circus try Denver and Seattle

by Davl on Apr 6, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

You guys are feeling frustrated by Bargnani? I've been frustrated with him since December. I had the reason and logic to see that he ain't good for the team. His underdevelopment is really going to hurt this team. We should trade Kapono, TJ Ford, and Bargnani for a bag of change and an all star. CB4 really needs another all star beside him to take this team to the next level. He can't carry the team for one year because of his injuries.
Boston: KG, Pierce, Allen
Detroit: Billups, Hamilton, Walace
Orland: Howard, Turkoglu
Cleveland: James, Big Z
Washington: Arenas, Jamison, Butler
Philadelphia: Miller, Igudola
Toronto: Injured CB4.
Face the reality guys, out team just ain't that good.
What you're going to say that JC is an all start, nope, he's a near all star that's happy to be a bench player.
FAN 590 said on the radio Saturday night, we need to overhaul our team and that killer instinct can't be taught.
I don't see any killer instinct in Bargnani whatsoever.

by BargsBust on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

what up, everyone! first time poster here...

very interesting take on the VC trade... i'm a grad history student and people in my discipline might interpret that as revisionist history haha... but on the other hand, it has been a few years already since that trade went down, and as time progresses, more and more reassessments of the babcock era will be done in which rob babcock's tenure as GM will be put in a more "objective" light... kinda like how the gov't of china nowadays is portraying chiang kai-shek's role during WWII in a more positive light... ok, off topic here...
anyway, couldn't help but notice sam mitchell being antsy with the media again after last night's game when he was talking about how everyone on the team was "frustrated"... i don't know if i can believe that because if the players were truly frustrated, then you'd think they wouldn't be making the same mistakes over and over again... i mean, sure, they still might be making mistakes, but wouldn't they at least be making different kinds of mistakes? at least that would show that they're trying to improve on the PREVIOUS set of mistakes...

by ted c on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

"I've been frustrated with him since December" didnt this guy say b4 that he knew he was a bust b4 we got him?

by rogersguy on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Times is rough but I guess we have no choise but to 'take a deep breath' and hope for the best at the trade deadline of '09. The major overhaul everyone is talking about will come to through then.

For now - we get to have the season extended...by a bit! I'm personally hoping we slip to 8 now so we can get a chance to watch the Raps play the Celtics? Seeing as how we're out the first round - I'm going for entertainment value and would rather watch them play the Celts than the Pistons; may as well lose to (hopefully) the 2008 NBA champs.

by Bfett on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Agreed. Post took my mind off of things directly related to the raptors poor play of late - which i think was your goal Howland, thanks. I think we might as well play Boston too at this point. Maybe at least set up a nice fight for Bosh against KG and give the team some anger for next season. Looking forward to the draft talk...

by fromlongrange on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Am I crazy for suggesting this? Bosh for the #1 pick that would be Rose. Think Miami or Seattle would do this?

I just don't see Bosh, TJ, or Jose having the game-dominating skills that you need your star to have to win in the playoffs.

by DaveS on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I'm not ready to give up on Bosh !!!!disapointed YES but not ready to throw in the towel just yet ...I have given up on T.J.Ford ....
Bring on the big boys...why not? weve proven we can't beat the under 500 teams.
If we ever want to win the East,we will have to go through,Detroit or Boston anyway.
Maybe Sam can figure how tall some players are by then.F,,,

by D279 on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great read, Howland, and I'm glad you didn't single out one raptor as the fatal flaw with this team - even AP has been guilty of slumping his shoulders and loping down the court after a missed hoop, while his man is scoring at the rim.

Sure individual mistakes have been made, but it's a team effort and the whole team is just not playing together.

by axl on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

"kinda like how the gov't of china nowadays is portraying chiang kai-shek's role during WWII in a more positive light"

Welcome aboard Ted C - loved the historical reference...

Just wanted to throw this out there but did anyone catch Sam Mitchell's post-game comments on Saturday night? Paul Jones was actually pressing him with some pretty good questions, especially about Bosh not taking a shot in the fourth quarter. Mitchell blurted out that with Bosh passing out of double teams, his team-mates weren't hitting their shots and unfortunately "that's the type of shots our team is comfortable with...we're a jump shooting team." Mitchell usually keeps his cards in close to his chest but to me that sounded like speaking out of frustration about the personnel he's trying to lead into battle each night...

Would love to know what's going through BC's head right now...

by Franchise on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Has anybody else noticed that whenever Rasho scores a lot, the Raps have been losing. It's time to get rid of this guy, he's obviously looking for his shot more and isn't playing team ball.

The above statement is me just be sarcastic. Substitute Rasho's name with TJ and you'll get statements that have been made several times this year.

by Art on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Let's remember that the Rap's (the same ones who are now struggling) were @ 32-24 and Bosh playing his best when he was injured. That along with TJ's selfish refusal to play a back up role that Sam felt was best for the team has created this losing environment.
The change from Jose to TJ starting and finishing has also had mixed results with some careless and lakadasial TJ efforts at critical times. At the same time Jose has been inconsistent in adjusting to the back-up role in looking more to passing and ignoring his shooting/scoring (6.1 ast & 6.4ppg & 41% shooting last 7gms in 23mins)not bad for a back-up, but we need more driving & scoring from him.
The TEAM just needs to forget the losing and REFOCUS on playing TEAM defense 1st and TEAM offense 2nd, moving the ball and attacking the rim, in getting back to RAPTORBALL.
They have done it before and no reason they can't do it again this year.
Definately lot's for BC to do in the off-season as Rap's play has exposed weak areas in defense and offense.

by Johnn19 on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Difference between Rasho and TJ: Rasho is not a point guard.

by observer on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Wow, another year (just like from 2001-02 to 2005-06) that I'm rooting for losses in the final ten games, so we get a higher draft pick.

Colangelo ain't such a saviour now, is he?

This franchise is such a mess. I agree with the suggestion to explore trades for Bosh--he's not a big time player, he's just a big-time scorer on a bad team. Watch every fourth-quarter this season: how many times did Bosh take over? Maybe 3 or 4, and even though it's usually on questionable foul calls that go our way rather that a Lebron-style takeover, where he wills the win.

I would trade Bosh for the #1 pick and a solid rebounder, take Rose and start all over: let's do it!

by Aaron on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Wow,

Two years ago the team won 27 games. Last year it was 47 and BC was a genius. This year the team will probably finish 41-41 and is in the playoffs for the 2nd year in a row. AND BC is a bum? CB4 is no good?

Has the team underperformed this year? Yes. Are the flaws glaringly obvious? Yes. BUT Rome wasn't built in a day.

And the personal attacks on the players. Wow. I might not like how someoen plays but all the "He sucks, that guy suck, he sucks even more" reminds me of my junior high team.

Stop bitchin' and be glad we have expiring contracts next year and aren't on the New York Knicks ten year rebuilding plan.

The babies that ALWAYS complain and make personal attacks have less loyalty than $2 hooker (but enough about they mamas) and more yak than a crooked politician. How's that for personal a attack?

Next year when BC swings a deal and the team is improved they'll all be singing his praises again. Wish these posers would stick to realgm either that or hurry up and graduate to grade 10.

by Todd on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Howland,

Gotta say I disagree with your perspective on the Vince trade for one main reasone, timing. This trade, if I remember correctly was consummated in early December, mainly due to Vince performing on a "work-to-rule" basis. That is, he was obviously not putting forth any effort, sulking more obviously than usual and had approached the media through back channels to make it known he was unhappy and wanted to be traded. Basically what happened is a veteran GM (Rod Thorn) of the Nets took advantage of an inexperienced, ill-prepared rookie GM who was completely overwhelmed by the situation.

The Kid trade is the perfect case study for a couple of reasons, we had a malcontent star who had made his trade demands public (some say as far back as last season) and for good measure we have Rod Thorne involved again. What was the key difference… Thorne waited until almost the last possible moment, drove up Kidd’s value by dangling him to multiple teams and ended up with a pretty darn good deal for an aging point guard who’s best years are behind him. What Babcock did was panic, there was no need at all to make that deal in December with the trade deadline more than 2 months away. Amateur move by an amateur GM who should never have been hired in the first place.

by MAS on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

vc may not have had value when he was being shopped around, but babcock's demise came in the offseason where vc voiced displeasure, and asked for a trade only to remain a raptor.

his stock was much higher and there were grumblings of vc for ray allen.

babcock was only able to get 50 cents on the dollar (i say it was more like a quarter) because he let the situation deteriote beyond repair. had he been proactive in the summer, actually met with carter worked with him, did something other than bring in a blue collar mentality things might have worked out better, and we would have more to show then joey graham for vince carter. i'd rather have the latter, even right now.

by RaptorsTalk on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Raptorstalk:
Let's look at the VC trade in it's entirety.
1st pick (16th) Graham
1st pick (20th) to NYK's in Rose trade clearing 16mil Cap space. One of the key reasons BC came to TO and used for signing:
Anthony Parker, Garbajosa, Slokar, Martin, Jones/Dixon.
Eric Williams used with Bonner in trade for Rasho.
Aaron Williams traded for a 2nd pick used in the deal with Detroit for Delfino. Re the Mourning deal, the buyout was MLSE decision to save $, rather than suspend him because he would not come. Still not a great deal by Babcock but Carter was a cancer on the team and had to go, and as it turned all of the assets rec'd were useful in creating the Raptors who last year made the playoffs for the first time in years. Graham was even usefull last year for the last dozen games starting when Garbajosa went down. This yr Delfino, Moon, & Kapono have taken his mins.

by Johnn19 on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

What is the point to any VC talk? It’s a useless discussion that goes no where, ancient history. We have a very capable general manager and a promising future. Next…

by OldSchool on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Just read that coach Pat Riley has elected to basketball’s hall of fame.
Why would he be selected, not that he not deserving, if he is still an active coach?

by OldSchool on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Posting from Phoenix, and from what I've read so far, I'm glad that I wasn't able to watch any of the games down here. Saw the Suns/Mavs yesterday, Dirk really came through in a must win for Dallas. Great crowd, practically all in orange. They do love Steve Nash and the Suns down here. Go Raps! irregardless!

by tfan on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

For all you Smitch haters out there: David Blatt is looking for work.

http://www.ballineurope.com/national-teams/david-blatt-is-jobless/

by Mazel Tov on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

The VC trade was one of the worst trades in pro sports history despite all of the well thought out responses above.

No supporting argument necessary.

by DayOner on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

The T-Mac giveaway was one of the worst giveaways ever.....just kidding...to the Present time my people!

by DayOner on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

In fact I think the overall franchise blockbuster is something like:

Carter
T-Mac
Camby
Stoudemire
Billups
Alston

For:
Graham
Oakley
K. Anderson = traded for Alvin. Williams

Also tossed away Mike James. D. Christie, Mo Pete, J. Pargo , K. Clark, Alston (first time) and Arroyo for...nothing

But they call me crazy.

by DayOner on Apr 7, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

DayOneR -

The Carter deal was FAR from being the worst trade in sports history, let alone the NBA.

See: http://www.hooplife.ca/raptorshq/viewHQArchive.php?id=191

by HOWLAND on Apr 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Hey Howland,

That was a good article you guys wrote back then...I guess yes those trades would rank up there as being possibly worse....hindsight in trades can be a good chuckle at times.

But....when the VC trade was announced it was just instant "dude are you crazy?" and that feeling has never left me to this day.

The fact that Aaron and Eric Williams might be bagging groceries as we speak while Joey Graham sweeps the dressing room after games and Alonzo Mourning just bosses around the Miami Heat masseuse late night is the main reason why I say the trade sucked.

I'm VC's age and I got nuff left in the tank, I suspect the same might be the case with Vince, like it or not fans.

by DayOner on Apr 8, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions