Stock Watch – February 7th, 2008 Edition

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST in NBA Draft

So Shaq is now a member of the Phoenix Suns. I still don’t see how this is going to work but more pressing a concern for me, is that now with Shawn Marion in tow, I’m no longer thinking Toronto’s next matches against Miami are going to be walks in the park. They should be Raptor wins, but a healthy Haslem, Marion, Wade, and whoever else suddenly isn’t the NBDL team it was days ago. Add in a solid draft pick and some cap room to lure in a key free-agent or two and I really think this is a steal for Miami when all is said and done.

And speaking of the draft, it’s been a wild year in the NCAA.

Last year was a bumper crop for freshman and many predicted that with the exodus of Oden, Durant and the Florida champs, it might be slim pickings for NBA clubs come summer of 08.

That hasn’t been the case at all and in fact, this year’s crew, if indeed all who are expected to declare do, could end up besting their 07 class brethren.

Barring a trade, or a massive collapse, the Toronto Raptors won’t be in the running for one of the top picks, meaning familiar names like Beasley, Rose, Gordon, Mayo, Green and Hibbert probably won’t be around when the Raps are on the clock. But that doesn’t mean there won’t be some quality choices still available when the Dinos select.

For sake of argument, right now we’re guessing that Toronto will be picking between 15 and 20 when all is said and done. So let’s take a look at some of the players who’ve caught our eye for Bryan Colangelo to choose from.

1) Kevin Love. If Love keeps putting up scoring and rebounding numbers like he has of late (22 and 14 over his last six games), then he very well may not be around for Toronto to select. One of the most well-rounded big men to come out of college in years, Love just knows how to play the game. At first glance many will scoff at what resembles Hoffa II (minus the tattoos and bryllcreem) but if you’ve seen UCLA play, you know how key he is to his team. He’s an absolute rebounding machine and while not the most athletic player at his position, he has a nose for the ball, loves the dirty work, and always gets great position. (Sound like something the Raptors could use so far?)

On top of this he’s an exceptional passer (witness his three-quarter court INBOUND CHEST PASSES for break-away lay-ups) and has a feathery soft touch which he can hit all the way out past the college 3 point line. The knocks on him have been his height (6-9) and his athleticism, but he’s showing that his other skills are negating many of these concerns. I think Love will be a mid to late lottery pick when all is said and done, but here’s hoping he falls into the Raptors’ clutches.

2) Chris Douglas-Roberts. Douglas-Roberts has teamed up with point guard Derrick Rose to form a lethal one-two punch at Memphis this season. He’s leading the Tigers in scoring with 17.8 points per game while grabbing 4.7 rebounds. He’s drawn comparisons to Jerry Stackhouse in his North Carolina days and can create off the dribble and get to the rim using his length and explosiveness. He’s not a great jump shooter or foul shooter, preferring to get to the rim…but that shouldn’t bother Raptors’ fans whatsoever.

As a bonus, he’s a junior meaning he’ll be coming into the league with less of a learning curve than some of his draft peers.

3) Tyler Smith. If you haven’t seen Tennessee play this year, try and tune in before the Big Dance. The Vols can get up and down the court and score with the best of them, and Smith is a big part of this offensive attack. Witness his line from Tuesday night as the Volunteers blitzed the Florida Gators:

Smith had 23 points, nine rebounds (six of which were offensive), six assists and a block in 26 minutes of action. Even more unbelievable, was that he only had two points at the half!

At 6-7 he’s the protypical size for an NBA 3 and is one of the most athletic players in the draft.

He’s got to work on his handle, and our compadre the HQ Associate isn’t a fan of how he wears his head-band, but so far Smith is one of the three players I’d like most to see in a Raps uni on draft day.

4) Bill Walker. In high school, Walker looked like the second-coming of Vince Carter, minus the settling for jump shots thing, and he and team-mate OJ Mayo seemed destined for NBA greatness. But a knee injury, strange academic circumstances, and an extremely disappointing Reebok Eurocamp (which he showed up to severely overweight) put him on scouts’ backburners. However this year paired with the monster known as Michael Beasley, Walker has looked like his old self again.

He’s averaging nearly 16 points and seven rebounds a game for K State and is shooting solid percentages in all areas. He still doesn’t have all of his explosiveness back, but with each game he’s looking more and more dominant. In Kansas State’s upset win over arch-rival Kansas, then ranked number 2 in the nation, Walker was dominant scoring 22 points on nine of 18 shooting and last night against Nebraska he went for 17 points and nine boards (seven being offensive.) With his length, scoring and athletic ability, Walker could easily end up being a lottery pick when all is said and done. But he could also simmer under the radar and be a nice option for the Raptors in the first round.

5) Hasheem Thabeet. Thanks to Rogers’ sports pack which seems to favour Big East and Big 12 games, I’ve seen a ton of Thabeet this year and have mixed thoughts about him as a prospect.

On one hand, he’s extremely rigid on the court, especially on the defensive end where he struggles to guard one-on-one. His touch around the basket is rough, his feel for the game is still developing and he has very little offensive game to speak of.

That being said, he’s 7-2 with a huge wingspan, has only been playing basketball for about five years, and is already an incredible shot-blocker and help defender.

So with Thabeet, assuming he comes out, you have to decide what you’re looking for when you draft him. If you want someone to come in and help your team right away, forget it. However if you’re looking for someone with incredible upside, the magic word, who could be a game-changer on the defensive end, there isn’t a better option available.

Case in point; last night against Syracuse Thabeet got in early foul trouble and had to sit for a good chunk of the first half. With him out of the game, the Orangemen immediately started attacking the rim and looked like they were headed towards an upset of the ranked Huskies. However that all changed when Thabeet was reinserted. He blocked seven shots and altered many others forcing Syracuse to settle for outside jumpers and UConn escaped with the victory. On the stat sheet his numbers don’t jump out at you, but when you watch how he single-handedly alters other teams’ offences, you begin to see just why UConn coach Jim Calhoun has begun comparing his development to another great former Husky – Emeka Okafor.

Lofty comparisons indeed, especially considering Calhoun has stated that Thabeet is improving more quickly (his free throw percentage is up almost 20 per cent from last season) and has fewer bad habits due to his lack of basketball experience.

Right now I believe that Thabeet would benefit from another year of school and come back to be a high lottery pick in 2009 but who knows. This is no Saer Sene and if he comes out and is around when Toronto picks, his rebounding and shot-blocking potential alone may be enough for Bryan Colangelo to take a flyer on him.

It also may be enough to drive Sam Mitchell right off the deep end.

Thabeet - Bust or late-round bargain?

Others Players the HQ Is Keeping An Eye On:

1) Devon Hardin – C: The next Nene or the next Patrick O’Bryant? Tough to say right now and depending on workouts could either be a top 15 pick, or fall into the second round.

2) Joey Dorsey – PF/C: Perhaps not worthy of a mid first round pick but a perfect fit for the Raptors as a Ben Wallace clone. Dorsey however may be even more athletic and a better scorer. Not many players in the NCAA his size can block a guard’s shot on one end and beat him down the court dribbling the ball for a dunk at the other…

3) DJ White – SF/PF: Another tough prospect to gauge – a great rebounder at his position who is a double-double threat on any given night, but also a player who seems to lack a position at the NBA level.

4) Patrick Patterson – SF/PF: Similar to White, there are worries that Patterson’s game may not translate at the next level. However his length and aggressiveness may negate these concerns.

5) Courtney Lee – SF/SF: Interestingly compared to Anthony Parker by Draftexpress, Lee could be this year’s Kevin Martin; a great prospect playing in a non-so-great conference (The Sun Belt.) Like Martin, Lee isn’t the most explosive or athletic player prospect but he can flat out score averaging 21 points a game for Western Kentucky. He’s a great leader and a senior to boot, something Toronto may covet instead of a developmental project.

Joey Dorsey's rebounding, strength and energy could really help the Raptors

Players at Present the Raptors Should Avoid Drafting at All Costs:

1) Chase Budinger – The HQ Associate put it best to me last weekend after his Bruins trounced Budinger’s Wildcats. "Chase is like that guy you went to high school with who dominated everyone because he was bigger, faster and more athletic. Therefore he looked like he was going to go far with his skills. But against other top level players, he just sort of disappears."

I couldn’t have said it better and after seeing him get locked down defensively by a much shorter series of UCLA defenders last Saturday, I came away thinking the same thing. A former volleyball player and great leaper, he settles far too often for jump shots making him a more athletic, less accurate version of Steve Novak. Until he starts showing more willingness to attack the basket, buyer beware.

2) Kostas Koufos – It’s no sure bet this seven-foot Greg Oden replacement for the Buckeyes will even come out but I’m hoping he doesn’t. Yes he’s got great size, good hands, and a nice touch around the basket…but he’s just not ready. Physically he needs at least another year in my opinion and while some have seen him as being another potential Big Z, he isn’t nearly as good a rebounder at this point. Nope, not exactly something the Raptors need.

Some final non-draft related thoughts, the NBA announced its line-up for the 3-point contest at the upcoming All-Star game and there were curious selections in my opinion, especially Kobe Bryant and Richard Hamilton. Hamilton is shooting a great percentage from long-range and has added that element to his game but I don’t really see him as being the type of player who excels in these types of contests. And Kobe? This seems more like a ploy for ratings than anything else. Kobe is as competitive as they come though so perhaps he makes things interesting. I would have preferred obviously to see Anthony Parker’s name on the final list and a head to head match with him and Jason Kapono would have been great for Raptors fans…but perhaps not for the rest of the league.

And finally over at Jamario-MoonHQ we’ve added a poll and have received our first Youtube submission sent in by reader Darren Bondy. It’s a great collection of Moon highlights set to Jay-Z and Just Blaze...

FRANCHISE

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Comments

two quickies:

1. I'm a big Kyle Weaver fan and think he could be an excellent slasher for the Raps if he's still around at #15-20.

2. In response to Franchise's comment about the potential to trade for Artest: can you sign an extension after a trade in the NBA (a la Johan Santana)? I can't remember this ever happening, so maybe it's not allowed in the CBA. Anybody know?

by Aaron on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

I have seen Hibbert place around the 12th pick in mock drafts. Is there are possibility Raptors would move up, and if so, is Hibbert a good option to cure the rebounding woes of our team?

by Mike Rapfan on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Quick note about the Shaq trade which was discussed in the first paragraph, since it has a small bit of relevance to the Raptors.

Shawn Marion may opt out of his contract at the end of the season, creating 17 mil of cap space for the Heat, a team that could really use a point guard, to spend in free agency. O_O;

I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

by Costa on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Costa, you can't seriously be thinking what you are thinking with Rose available, can you?

by Erezona on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

I can't wait for GM Colangelo to package Bargnani for a defensive center. It won't happen this year, but it'll happen at the right time.

If the GM does this, it means that he's serious about winning a championship.

Bargnani is not the answer for us, but a player that we can develop and trade at high value for a player who can bring us a championship. The sooner we can develop Bargnani the sooner we can get to a championship.

The Lakers, Suns, and Spurs are all favorites, why? Because they have Gasol, Duncan, and Shaq.
We need a defensive center. We can score enough points without Bargnani.
Enough said.

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

BargsBust says:

So you are finally admitting it indirectly that Bargniani is not a bust then?

"a player that we can develop and trade at high value for a player "

I mean surely he's not a bust if he's a player we can develop and trade at high value.
Defensively he's not our answer you are correct..but that's not why he was drafted.

In that sense, he's not a bust since he wasn't drafted to be a defensive stopper.
At this point, you are now playing the "buy low sell high" cards with Bargs. You won't admit he's special offensively..so you highlight his defensive lapses in your argument to trade him.

Weak.

by Aaron on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

One Gasol is not a strong defensive center by any stretch of the imagination. Phil Jackson left him a msg on his cell phone in spansish to welcome him to LA and then also mentioned to reporters that although this is a tremendous addition he is going to have to work on his defence.

THe spurs were considered a championship contender long before they had a defensive center who is likely no longer a defensive center.

THe mavs are also considered championship contenders and they dont'have a defensive center. Diop and Dampier can take up space and grab rebounds however they don't anchor a defence like a Tim Duncan or KG does. Same thing applies to Kendrick Perkins.

Defensive centers that can hold their own on offence are a rare find. If Colo can do something to better this team I'm sure he will do it.

And to close....Bargs was not, is not and will not be a bust.

by wtf on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Could've sworn the Suns were championship contenders before Shaq came to town. Not even gonna mention the point about Gasol.

Not sure if Bargsbust is really this much of an idiot or just trying to bait everyone into an argument to get attention. I think its a combination of the two. Just gonna ignore you from now on. I hope everyone else does the same.

by SonicSuper on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

When you draft a number 1 pick, you are supposed to draft a franchise player or, you're supposed to draft the best player available, which we didn't do. Yes, the jury is still out. And we have to wait on this.

If you don't draft a franchise player then its a waste of a pick. e.g. Kwame brown, non franchise player. Bargnani is not a franchise player and therefore is a bust for that pick. Yes he has talent, but if a point guard, small forward, or power forward can grab more rebounds he's pathetic and has very little athleticism.

How are we supposed to put the franchise on his 7 ft shoulders when he's not even the best player on the team? You can't.

Sure, the guy can score points, but when you're outscoring teams by 20 plus points, it makes it irrelevant on how many points Bargnani scores, therefore who cares if Bargnani can score points.

Look at Dallas and Dirk Nowitzki. Nowitzki last year had an MVP season, one of the best offensive machines in the league, but he chocked in the playoffs last year. He's not a defensive stopper and solely relies on his offense. How many experts believe this choke expert can still win a championship, hardly anybody.

Most people believe that the Spurs will still win the championship. Why? Because they didn't draft Bargnani, they drafted Duncan as a number one pick. Compare each other's production at the same age. It's not even comparable.

BTW if we were in the Western Conference our team would be out of the playoffs. We would be ranked 11th in the Western Conference. The fact that Hollinger ranks us as the 5th seed is such a joke!

In the NBA, we're still behind teams like
Orlando
Denver
Spurs
Houston
etc etc.
These are the teams with the best centers in the league.

Final note: Defense wins championships, not scoring. Just look at New England Patriots offense lose in the SuperBowl, Do you want the Raptors to win in the regular season to only lose when it counts?

If not, admit it Bargnani is a bust!

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Ok, I'll bite. How is it a bad thing to outscore teams by 20? Do you understand what you are writing?

by bluenoser on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Final note: Defense wins championships, not scoring. Just look at New England Patriots offense lose in the SuperBowl, Do you want the Raptors to win in the regular season to only lose when it counts?

Lol

go Oilers go

by Davl on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Allright, I've had it.

Bargsbust said;

When you draft a number 1 pick, you are supposed to draft a franchise player or, you're supposed to draft the best player available, which we didn't do.

Bedhead: Says who? It's a tad early to be critical of the pick given Bargs finished 2nd in rookie voting last year and we are only half way through the season this year.

bargsbust: Yes, the jury is still out. And we have to wait on this.

bedhead: So which is it? He's a bust or it's too soon to tell? You only get to pick one.

bargsbust:
If you don't draft a franchise player then its a waste of a pick. e.g. Kwame brown, non franchise player.

Bedhead: It's not a waste if you get a decent player. Bargnani's draft year was considered weak by all the experts and it was also considered to lack a definite franchise centre. So Colangelo went 'outside the box' and looked for a talented 7ft pivot overseas.

Also, if you mention Kwame Brown in the same breath as Bargnani again as if they had any resemblance to each other, I will punch you in the mouth.

bargsbust: Bargnani is not a franchise player and therefore is a bust for that pick.

bedhead: False. Bargs could still be the best player from his draft year and yet not be a franchise player. Sometimes the drafts are just weak. Also, you don't get to conclude he is a bust if you are still waiting for the jury. Focus buddy, focus.

bargsbust:

Yes he has talent, but if a point guard, small forward, or power forward can grab more rebounds he's pathetic and has very little athleticism.

bedhead: Bargnani gets his share of defensive boards, but offensively he isn't the glass cleaner people hoped for because he plays a perimeter game. Given he's spent his entire career till last season as a small forward or 2 guard, I'm willing to cut him some slack regarding offensive floor positioning.

bargsbust:

How are we supposed to put the franchise on his 7 ft shoulders when he's not even the best player on the team? You can't.

bedhead: When San Antonio picked Duncan first overall he was not as good as the Admiral. So what if Bargnani isn't as good as Bosh yet? What does that prove except that Bosh is really freaking good?

Bargsbust: Sure, the guy can score points,

Bedhead: Finally some evidence you have actually watched him play.

bargsbust:

...but when you're outscoring teams by 20 plus points, it makes it irrelevant on how many points Bargnani scores, therefore who cares if Bargnani can score points.

Bedhead: Well we care that he can score points because we want to outscore everybody. It's sort of the point.

bargsbust: Look at Dallas and Dirk Nowitzki. Nowitzki last year had an MVP season, one of the best offensive machines in the league, but he chocked in the playoffs last year.

Bedhead: Ah I see, it's not just Bargnani you don't like, it's 7 footers who combine size, mobility and scoring ability.

Bargsbust: He's (Nowitzki) not a defensive stopper and solely relies on his offense. How many experts believe this choke expert can still win a
championship, hardly anybody.

Bedhead: Yeah, I was just thinking how terrible a team the Mavericks have been these last few years what with making the finals and getting robbed by the refs and all.

Bargsbust: Most people believe that the Spurs will still win the championship. Why? Because they didn't draft Bargnani, they drafted Duncan as a number one pick.

Bedhead: I am now convinced you are too retarded to be bothered with. Toronto did not have the opportunity to draft Tim Duncan. We had the top pick in a weak draft year, and we got an intriguing (and admittedly flawed) player with tremendous potential. I call that a win.

bargsbust; Compare each other's production at the same age. It's not even comparable.

Bedhead: Hey let's throw in Shaw for comparison too, afterall, he's just as irrelevant to the argument, so why not?

BTW if we were in the Western Conference our team would be out of the playoffs. We would be ranked 11th in the Western Conference. The fact that Hollinger ranks us as the 5th seed is such a joke!

Bedhead: I bet you scream at the microwave to hurry up. Dude, Colangelo has had one draft and one and a half seasons to fix the team, and you are all aflutter because we don't have Tim Duncan and arent't the top team in the West? Were you repeatedly dropped on your head as a child?

bargsbust:

In the NBA, we're still behind teams like
Orlando
Denver
Spurs
Houston
etc etc.
These are the teams with the best centers in the league.

Bedhead: I think the Raptors have better chemistry and depth than Houston or Denver. Orlando is comparable, and the Spurs are the league's model franchise. Boo hoo we aren't number one yet.

Barbsbust; Final note: Defense wins championships, not scoring. Just look at New England Patriots offense lose in the SuperBowl,

Bedhead: Yeah, that New England team (3 Superbowls!) is really stupid to rely on offense like that.

Bargsbust: Do you want the Raptors to win in the regular season to only lose when it counts?

Bedhead: Wow, talk about running before you learn to walk. Newsflash for you, but until last year (that would be Bargnani's rookie season) we weren't even MAKING the playoffs. Now that we have Bargnani we win the division and get a ticket to the big dance.

Bargsbust:
If not, admit it Bargnani is a bust!

Bedhead: Congratulations Bargsbust because that was quite possibly the worst argued post I have ever encountered.

by bedhead on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Funny out of the teams you mention with the best centers in the league only one is considered a legit champsionship contender.

Secondly if you compare Bargs to other first round picks then obviously he doens't look as good because it was a weak draft even though we still dont'know how good Bargs will be. Also if a player is going to be labelled a bust (and it usually takes more than a year and a half for that to happen) you compare him to other people taken in the same draft. The only player I'd take over Bargs right now is Brandon Roy.

Using your starategy of determining a bust you could say that Yao Ming was a bust because he hasn't been as good as Duncan, Shaq or Lebron.

I'd say (1)Yao has been pretty good and (3)Mike Dunleavy, (4) Drew Gooden and (5) Tskitishvili were the busts.

Although Yao hasn't dominated he has certainly been better than those guys.

I don't see why you mention football especially since it doesn't help your case at all. First its a totally different sport, secondly the offensive minded colts were easily able to beat the defensive bears prior to the Giants winning it.

by wtf on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Gonna take some flack for this... but here goes: Bargsbust has a point. The whole develop Bargs and trade him blah blah Bargs sucks blah blah isn’t logical… However, the point about strong defensive teams winning championships is rock solid. Let’s look at the champs over the last couple of decades (1987 – 2006): Chicago Bulls – 6 Chips, Lakers – 5 Chips, San Antonio – 3 Chips, Detroit Pistons – 3 Chips, Houston Rockets – 2 Chips, Miami Heat – 1 Chip.

No one can argue that any of those teams was not a strong defensive team (Spurs, Detroit and Houston were arguably the best defensive teams in the league when they won). Furthermore, the Celtics and Lakers championship teams of the 80’s were stellar defensive teams. Further still, the fact that both Dallas and Pheonix have failed to win a chip in the last 5 years is more proof of the old adage: DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Why has phoenix made a deal with the devil and traded for Shaq? Because they know they wouldn’t be able to deal with the Spurs and Lakers in the playoffs without someone to man the middle. SHAQ HOWEVER WAS NOT THE ANSWER!

So while teams like the Suns may be more entertaining and will win more regular season games, they are not built to win championships. While I am a huge fan of Colangelo, and respect his knowledge of the game, ability to evaluate talent and build successful NBA teams, I hope (pray) he realizes what is really required to win a championship going forward.

by MAS on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

I do agree that defence wins championships.

However I do not agree with statements such as Bargnani is a bust. Its a flat out wrong statement and the previous posts show that.

Just because Bargs will not be a great defender does not mean he is a bust.

However I'd also like to say this.....there are reasons why sayings are sayings.....its because they're true.

And as the old sayin goes...theres a first time for everything...

by wtf on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

BargsBust is a bust.

You heard it here first.

I know he's only been commenting for 4 months, but I think we made the wrong pick in the commenter draft.
Experience commenters know that in order to be successful and make salient points, you have to be at least marginally logical.
I know some people think that he's shown flashes of potential, but goddamnit people I want great commenting on this site NOW!
I have a short attention span and I'm not prepared to watch him develop....besides he's no Bethlehem Shoals, and we all know you can't have a great site without Shoals.
I think its time we all just admitted that BargsBust is a bust and move on.
I've been using ESPN's commenter trade machine, and I think we should send BargsBust to Red's Army in exchange for SCALABRINESBALLSAK_89.

We will of course have to throw in Marcia for salary cap reasons.

by the styling assassin on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Stylin Assasin, post of the week for sure LOL!

by MAS on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

As a die-hard fan, I had to take the time and put my two cents in on the BARGNANI debate.

If the entertainment value alone of those soft effortless 3's is not enough, how about the fact that he recently rediscovered the ugly looking BUT effective drive to the basket.

Mind you he is the clumsiest looking Raptor, but he doesn't seem out of control, just chicken-like when he puts the ball on the floor.

Maybe that's why he doesn't do it too often, except for that up fake, one dribble stop and pop J in the lane...

Not to mention completing his all around offensive arsenal with above average passing ability and super-soft hands.

PS Didn't Bosh just admit that most of Bargnani's sloppy looking inside dishes to #4 were Bosh's fault for not being ready to receive the pass...

WHO are we kidding when we say TRADE HIM or HE'S A BUST

he is one of the most complete offensive big men in the league today... His struggles were to do with confidence... all mental... the kid has GAME and he is back

now if he could only rebound, oh wait he only has a year and a bit under his belt, IT'S CALLED DEVELOPMENT PEOPLE

thanks, GO RED GO RAPS

BLEED RED!!!!!

by sniper on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Bargsbust... wow you define the word idiot to a T. You made so many oxymorons with your arguements. You basically proved yourself wrong. Now with Dirk, incase you havent noticed, hes actually playind defence this year AND even bigger hes rebounding! Mavs got screwed in the finals and everybody knows it. The refs made so many bad calls to favour Wade. Bargsbust have some valid points next time you post. You indeed are an invalid.

by Thor on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Bedhead - If your post fit into our comment of the week section on the front page, I'd put it in. You touched on everything and in particular, great point about Duncan.

DUNCAN WASN'T IN ANDREA'S DRAFT.

Look at the top 15 picks in 06. Of them, Roy and Gay are obviously head and shoulders over Bargnani right now, no one's denying that. And MAYBE you could say Aldridge, although I have him in fantasy and he's HARDLY been dominant lately. The only other player of the top 15 picks who is having as much or more of an impact on his team as Bargs is Ronnie Brewer, and his ceiling just isn't as high. So right now, maybe Bargs is fifth out of the top 15. And a lot of that is because of his horrid start to the season, his SECOND SEASON. I just don't understand Bargsbust how you're willing to write him off so soon. It's not like Hoffa where you're not even getting four points and four rebounds a game in year two?! If Andrea keeps playing like he has the past few games, I'd probably jump him up to third with Aldridge in terms of the draft.

Look at the rest of that group; Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams, Randy Foye, Patrick O'Bryant, Saer Sene...do we need to keep going? As Bedhead mentions, maybe Andrea doesn't become the next Dirk but maybe one of the top 3 of his draft class? Does that mean he's a bust? Hardly considering what else BC was working with. Maybe the 2006 draft when all is said and done simply turns out like that of 2000. Yeah, the one that brought us perennial All-Stars like Darius Miles, Marcus Fizer, DerMarr Johnson and Chris Mihm...

PS - Phoenix Assistant coach Phil Webber is on Hoops right now on RapsTV/Fan 590 defending the Shaq trade. I swear the guy is on cocaine or speed the way he's rambling and out of breath...might have to discuss this tomorrow...

by Franchise on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

You guys are funny. I love how people react so emotionally to my comments.
I'll concede that I may not be the most logical person. But, I'm also not trying to write in a slanted fashion. I'm trying to write from a balanced perspective.

Anyway,I thought this was a website where people are supposed to express their thoughts and feelings about basketball. Not get pissed off at one another.

As for bedhead, you totally didn't understand my points.

The whole point of playing in the NBA is to win a championship. True winners want that more than anything.
My second point is to get that championship you have to play defence. But, as of right now, Bargnani is not a defensive player so I don't think he will be winning any championships soon. Which is why as of right now he's not good for the team and we should trade him as soon as he gets more talented.

Can you really teach defence? Aren't most players that come into the NBA defensive or offence minded? If you could teach defence, why doesn't Steve Nash play any?

We'll just have to wait and see what happens to the Raptors. It'll be interesting to see how the team develops.

Again, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, if Bargnani can get two straight double doubles, rebounds and points, he's not a bust.

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Great post as usual Franchise. I felt the same as you about Parker being left out of the 3 point competition, but Doug Smith had a great point. Does a player really need to be making a weekend trip just to take part in a 10 minute shooting drill instead of just taking the weekend off to rest? Other than Kapono, the defending champ, the rest of the field is involved in other aspects of the weekend, or from Orleans. And to that point, apparently Parker said no last year. Maybe the league gauges interest from the best shooters behind closed doors and makes the best logistical choices. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but that makes sense to me.

As for draft prospects. If there's a way to get Tyler Smith and Joey Dorsey, I'm all for it. I've seen a couple a lot of Memphis games between last year and this year and a couple of Tennessee games and the toughness of Dorsey combined with the athleticism and kick-ass all-around game (minus spot up shooting) of Smith would be exciting as hell. Hump will have to play out of his mind to even sniff the court.

As for the guy talking about Bargnani being a bust...man...your argument isn't that Bargnani is a bust its that you don't like his style of play. He's 21! A year and a half in the league and he's shown me and a lot of other people glimpses of what he can do. But you're right. Hey we should've drafted Bill Russell instead! What was BC thinking?

One thing I would like to ask the general populous. Remember all the charges Bargs was taking last year? I loved that. Why isn't that happening anymore. Are they asking different things of him defensively, is he lacking in focus on the defensive end? I can't put my finger on it, but he's just not putting himself in position to take charges like he was last year.

by Briggs on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Oh, one more thing, I know that Duncan and Bargnani were not in the same draft. I also know that the draft class was weak. But we should have chosen the better player in Roy or Aldridge, which I've said in the past.
And the fact that the Spurs don't have a player like Bargnani, just makes the Spurs better. And in 97-98, Duncan and the Admiral had comparable, almost identical stat line which is just incredible! Bargnani gets like 4 rebounds or something while Duncan gets 12! And if you guys still want to argue, all I got to say is, just wait and see.
I do trust Colangelo's judgment.

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

"If you could teach defence, why doesn't Steve Nash play any?
"

Does that make Nash a bust? Is he not great because he can't play D?

by Aaron on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Aaron, it just means that if he's on your team then your team is less likely to win a championship. So the favorites to win are always teams that have great defence.

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

If that's the case, then it's not necessarily Bargs being a bust that makes the raps a non-championship team. It just means they are offensive minded. Like the suns.

What does the team's style of play have to do with a player's skill? What you should be arguing instead is the style of play we chose to adopt is not something that would bring championship, not that Bargs is a bust.

If Bargs was picked first to play D and he's showing lack of D right now, then I concede he is a bust. But that's not the case.

Therefore, Bargs is not a bust.

by Aaron on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Aaron, I think you have some good points. Perhaps it is a team identity and not a player, but I still believe its Bargs responsibility to play defence and get rebounds. I believe that its the centers job to get the rebounds. He's the closest one to the basket on defence and offence.
I also think that CB4, Moon, Parker, Ford and others on the team can play defense. Bargs can't play defense. It's unfortunate that he plays right under the hoop. Amare can't guard Duncan. Bargs basically can't guard any decent center in the league. We have similar problems to Phoenix. Look what Phoenix did, they went to get a defensive center. We need one of those.
This argument won't be put to rest to night. Aasron, we'll just have to wait and see how the Raptors team unfolds

by BargsBust on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Great draft stock watch!

I don't think this will be a draft where you hope the two players you want drop, or else you have to reach.

As long as your in the top 20, you are coming out a winner.

The high ceiling players are showing that they have some game right now, and the upperclassman still have room for improvement.

If I'm BC, I see Douglas-Roberts as that elusive second scorer.
Also think Tyler Smith and Devon Hardin would bring unique things to the table.

Love sounds like he's capable of a MUCH bigger role then the Raptors can offer in the short and long term. I'd draft him and trade down for extra assets if he was available.

by yardly on Feb 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Bargsbust - Stop acting like you are clever for inciting people's outrage. You make a lot of stupid points, back them up with sweeping truths (defence wins). If you were playing devil's advocate, then why have you been doing it for 4 months? We get your point, we drafted Bargs a year and a half ago, let it go. I feel like a sucker for even replying to you. Bedhead already undressed you, but I think the Stylin Assassin played you best.

When talking old sayings, there are others we should keep in mind when talking about Bargs...

Bigs take time to develop: look how long it took Camby to be a defensive player of the year candidate, when he was with the raps I never would have seen hat coming.

Draft Big/You can't teach size: Roy looks good, but there are LOADS of talented 2 guards in the league. There are VERY few 7 footers that can do what AB does. Dirk and...

I think everyone understands the attraction of having that big dominant defensive C. The raps really have never had one. Just because AB isn't in that mold doesn't mean he is a bust. He is a wild card, we have to wait and see how this team can use and take advantage of.

I think down the road he even has the potential to at least be a solid defender. Even if he doesn't rebound as much as the guys 2 feet from the hoop. Look how many reebs guys like Parker and Delfino get, long rebounds from deep shooters. It should balance out when it is all sorted out.

by Robert Archibald on Feb 8, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Nice looking prospects, franchise. I don't have much time to watch NCAA, so I appreciate the analysis. Seems like Thabeet's one of those players that some team will pick up early on potential alone. If he's available, might be a passable rasho replacment.

BargsbuttHQ-
I actually think bargs plays good defence. He's had problems with twos and threes throwing themselves at him, he gets caught out of position too much, but when he's there, he blocks shots, changes shots, moves his feet, does the sly little body bump garbo-style. And over the past few weeks especially, he is learning when to help and when not to.

There are deeper issues to question about him, but I'm not going to mention them if you haven't figured them out.

Stylin' - omg lol

by axl on Feb 8, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Franchise - why not create a thread about AB? Then Bargsabust can go and debate Andrea ad nauseum with whomever chooses to read his crap. It's crazy that you have a great post about the upcoming draft and it gets sidetracked because people feel the need to respond to Bargsabust.

by Clawed on Feb 8, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions

Marreese Speights is someone the Raptors should strongly consider grabbing at the 16-19 spot. He received tutelage from Horford and Noah and is coming into his own. At 6-10 250lbs he has the size the Raptors desperately need to shore up their rebounding and D, and rescue Bosh from having to bang every game with so many of the NBA's boehemiths.

by Caninbul on Feb 9, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions