Tip-In, Toronto Raptors’ Post-Game: Reality Check

JK and Moon had a good run starting! JG and Parker should get the start. Either way Raptors will still be playing 2 bench players against the starting 5 on the other team

Oh yea can't wait to see Kapono win the 3 pt shooting contest again lol

Knew they were losing last night - really, talent just isnt there even against gstate with no jo.

Only hope i think of a trade is if nelson decides he needs to start playing randolph and wright at the expense of otehrs who can then be dealt.

I guess if you project out to 41 games (half point in the season) the Raps could be sitting with 16 - 18 wins. If my math is right ,that means they would need 23 of the remaining games to equal last year's win total. That's do-able and perhaps that would get them into the play offs but it is painfully obvious that this team lacks too much to advance in the play offs. One way to make things better is a "GOOD" trade and why has that not happened? I would guess that there are many obsticles in BC's way which we the fans are unaware of. The most glaring would be management's unwillingness to go over the cap. Boston is away over the cap and it would be interesting to ask their management if being over the cap is worth it. So let's say no meaning full trade is forth coming, what is left? That would be to find some way to boost our player's understanding of the game. Some way to make them play smarter. Some way to get them to understand the complicated things like "boxing out" or
not to "jump in the air when passing or staying out to guard on the perimeter after your player has hit 3 or 4 three's in a row on you.
They do need a "meaning full trade and they do need to fix their fundamentals.

I start to look forward to next season: There will be some money coming off the books and most teams will avoid spending money because of the 2010 FA season. If the Raps can get lucky in draft, maybe there is a significant improvement in the cards for the 2010 season, and really that's what we'll need for Bosh to re-sign.

I wouldn't count on the Raps getting lucky in the draft as BC has yet to show that he can actually draft anyone of substance (at least as a Raptor GM). So even if we get the 1st overall pick (which is a long shot) we would be in a difficult position as currently the top pick is shaping out to be Griffin who is a PF (same position as our current star). That would be fine if it were next year and it looked like Bosh was moving on but we need a wing player and that may be difficult to get in the draft (at least one is ready now).
I really think that the only way we are going to get the help we need on the wing is to make a deal somewhere and I am just not sure who we can get for what we have to give up. The deals I mentioned yesterday were at best questionable from both a likelyhood scenario and whether they would help our team in the long run. The Maggette deal might make sense but as someone pointed out, it leaves the clips short a PG which isn't going to help them (athough with a slight expansion of the deal, maybe GS would trade elis away as we all know they were unhappy with his choice of recreational activities).

That's enough for me. After countless seasons like this, I am going on hiatus this season.

Who's to blame for this mess? The obvious answer is the GM. But I think the problem is a bit more extensive than that. You mention that the raptors biggest problem right now is its lack of wing players. It's easy to blame BC for that, but lest we forget, he almost had John Salmons in the bag. BC essentially lost out on him because he didn't want to play in TO.

And his case is just a drop in the bucket. As long as this franchise is perceived in the league as an undesirable place to play, it will have to pay a premium to bring established players here (i.e., Kapono). If they aren't willing to go over the salary cap, then there really isn't a way to change things.

"unless Bosh starts being the biggest ball-hog this side of JR Rider" ... that's why I read this site! You guys talk my language. :)

Who the F@#@ is CJ Watson??

Thank you Franchise. Great post! I sense a bit of frustration (justified and understandable). On a night when Bosh gets 30 and 14, and Jose goes for 21 and 16 and the Raptors still loose to the then 9 and 23 Warriors, there is no place left for BC to hide.

Regarding Jose, this is the type of game I was hoping to see more of from him this year. While I don’t expect 21 and 16 on a nightly basis, I thought the way he managed the offense and his aggressiveness in getting his own shot was excellent last night. He’s got to look to get to the basket more often than he has been this season, or at least get into the paint and look to get easy baskets for others.

Oh and that Moon play that was pointed out in this post was pathetic. Quick question(s): Has Jemario Moon EVER dunked the basketball in anything that resembles "traffic" in two seasons as a Raptor? Has he ever got an "and 1"? EVER? If he has I can’t remember. His fear of contact has reached pathological levels. What a ninny.

Regrettably, I believe we have reached the point where this team has to trade Bargnani. Not because he’s a bad player (debatable) but as long as we are waiting for him to develop (three years and counting) this Franchise can not move forward. I’m finding it more and more difficult to believe that this team will ever be successful if Bosh is paired with Bargs on a starting frontline. For Bosh to be utilized efficiently and to maximize his talent, his specific skill set needs to be paired with brute force. The ideal partner in the front court for Bosh is a centre that rebounds (offensively would be nice), defends, blocks shots, intimidates, does not need the ball to be effective and has a bit of a mean streak. All of the above are lacking in Andrea Bargnani. I know JO is here now, but for the long term think of a Kendrick Perkins type. That’s why, if an opportunity comes up that could get a return of a youngish wing player that can create his own shot and breakdown a defence, for the sake of all that is holy BC, pull the Gotdam trigger!

This season is not worth fighting for. This team has problems its had for years so it is hard to see things turned around in time for a playoff run.

Here's the trade I'd try to make if I ran things: Bargs and AP for Julian Wright and MoPete's crappy contract. NO has buried Wright on the bench this year but he has potential as a wing. They could use some scoring for their 2nd unit and some size to back up Chandler and West. Not sure NO would do such a deal but it strikes me as vaguely sensible.

And BC needs to hit one out of the park in this year's draft. Frankly, I hope he has a lottery pick to play with.

Oh, and if I ran things, I would seriously consider moving Bosh at a point where his value is highest. Detroit might have pieces. The fanbase would revolt for awhile but, as good a player as Bosh is, I do not think you can build a team around him and go far in the playoffs. He can be an important part of a championship team but not the centrepiece that his is in Toronto.

According to this rumour coming out of Sacramento (see the first linked article on this page) Salmons is available: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

He is a 20pt per game scorer who makes roughly 5.5 mil a year, yes pretty much what we’re paying JASON KAPONO! He’s a decent defender, a play maker and can handle the ball and run an offense in a pinch if our piss-poor back-up PGs are having an "off" game. He shoots over 40% from beyond the arc and almost 50% on a team where he does the heavy lifting.

If we have to give up Bargs in this deal, so be it. If we have to give up our pick this year plus Parker’s expiring contract so be it.

Why do the Raps jack up long bombs whenever they're behind (as in the 3rd quarter)? Why didn't Triano called time outs when longbombitiis occurs? Bargs was shown up by his countryman last night. BC, please make a trade!

I agree with your assessment Mas on Bargs 100 per cent. BC has put himself in a lose-lose situation here because keeping Bargs is obviously not the solution for helping his development, and dealing him now probably means that Colangelo is going to have to accept some sort of low-ball offer.

This is a blog post in itself.

I'd love Salmons on this team but if you're Sacramento, do you even WANT Bargs in return?

Franchise:

I thought the quote about how Hassan Adams should be blogging on this site quite appropriate... and well.. I would appreciate it! The guy really is into 'it' every game from the sideline. He may not make the team - but he's got the heart for it. I guess he just loves his B-Ball.

Regarding the Smith trade talk: I see it more as BC trying to use rampant speculation to increase value of our players. It's been known to do wonders...

BC gambled on Kapono and it hasn't paid off... end of story really as far as wings go. I wouldn't trade any of our bigs really, because Bosh and JO are too good and bargs isn't going to get enough back yet.

Now that my anger has worn off, I have to say I like this team more than I have for the last season and a half. Triano's style promotes creatvity and he's got jose ballin' which are two things lacking for a while. I see plenty of progress that's not going to show up in the win column.

Yes the JO deal was surprising but understandable, then the jawaii drafting was like, really, but BC was already committed to kapono...

The move I would have liked to have seen would have been to fire smitch in the summer.

Great Read as usual; One of the things that you mentioned that I’ve been saying since last season is BC’s scouting doesn’t impress me. Azubuike is a great example, now that’s a guy you give a few extra dollars to come here to be a starter, although to be fair there are a lot of other variables that were not privy to. The point though is "finds" like Solomon, Adams, Moon and even Parker (although I definitely appreciate his contribution over the last couple of years) don’t compare to Nelson, Wilson, Morrow, Azubuike, Bass, etc .etc. His strategy seems focused on bringing in complimentary players from Europe for cheap and surrounding Bosh with them. Although the European leagues produce very good players that would be and have been great fits in the NBA, I wouldn’t say BC has brought those types of players to T.O. His investments in European players, i.e. bringing them over with little or no NBA experience have not paid proper dividends in my opinion. Similarly, his investment in unknown players like Moon and Adams has not worked out any better. I’m not saying he shouldn’t bring in European players or unknown players because quite frankly I think it is a good and cost effective way to build a team around Bosh, but he’s really got to do a better job of evaluating these players before signing them. More importantly, whether from Europe, A,B,C, or D league, other NBA teams or out of a hat he needs to urround Bosh with an acceptable level of talent and athleticism and thus far he’s failed to do that. Having said all of that, I still think this team needs a small injection of talent on the wings plus one rugged big man and we’ll be ok. My somewhat realistic wish list based on what we can probably pry from other teams include: Azubuike, Sefolosha, Barbosa, Balkman, Petro (underrated big), Wilkins, and Warrick. None of these guys are high profile proven scorers yet if you add 3 or 4 of those guys to Bosh, JO and JC, all of a sudden your team is quicker, more talented and most importantly athletic.

I think I have finally cooled down after my frustration level peaked last night (mostly at Kapo-none for missing OPEN threes).

New conversation piece...BC brought in O'neal. Why?

If he wants Bargs to develop why would he bring in another big man? Here's a theory...trade value and ticket sales. O'neal puts way more people in the seats than an unhappy Ford does. Look at it as a temporary fiscal decision which knowingly hurts the depth of the team until you can move O'neal.

Now look at O'neals numbers in the last few games (28ppg 8rpg 2bpg). The guy has been a monster and if BC waits a little longer for other teams looking to make a playoff run he could be looking at WAAAAAAAAAY more value than Ford+Rasho could ever garner.

In all likelihood, he would have explained this to MLSE with the caviat "it could get a little rough, but the seats will be full."

In the meantime, Bargs gets to learn from an all star C and hone his game for when he's back in the starting lineup.

Obviously this is just a theory, but it would explain a few things.

Anyone else got a take on it?

One thing I wanted to point out:

loose = opposite of tight
lose = opposite of win

Why do so many people on so many different blogs make this mistake (loose instead of lose)? Is there an American/Canadian issue that I'm not aware of?

My biggest frustration continues to be the fact our management team faces so many more obstacles than most, if not all the teams in the NBA, so it’s difficult to determine the factors behind the moves or lack of moves made by the GM.

The lack of interest (refusal) of U.S. players coming to play for a non-U.S. team has been understated and is the biggest issue this franchise faces (as dkmo stated above). I believe the Raptors management have and continue to deal with this issue with draft picks, free agents and in potential trades, far more than we know, and is the main reason BC has consistently gone the Euro route (slim pickings of late) or picked players off the scrap-heap (Similar to the Blue Jays developing Dominican players in the 80’s). It’s pretty tough to build a consistent winner when such a high percentage of the players push back.

Frankly, I’m just thankful we have Colangelo on our side, since no other decent GM would ever take this job.

Franchise you couldn't have said it better. I totally understand your frustration and after watching 3 quarters last night I did something I have never done at a Raptor game. I turned off the TV because I thought it was my negative vibe that was causing the Raps to miss so much WIDE OPEN looks. GState players were nailing there open 3's and the Raps best shooters were missing there's my frustration level was off the charts so I shut it down and went to bed hoping that when i wake up things might be different.It wasn't and from hearing Bosh's comments it seems that the our best shooters went on to miss 4 more WIDE OPEN LOOKS.... The Raptors need to go in the gym and just put up shots, whenever they shoot they shoot not to miss instead of shooting to make a basket, there is a big difference, if you shoot not to miss 90% of the time you are aiming you shots and that's a miss..Leo always talk about it. Which bring be back to Franchise frustration. We have been waiting for Dec 15 to see if BC was going to get a wing player, well its been 15 days and we are still waiting. This will burn out Bosh and JC, there is too much stress and pressure on those players to hold the fort and keep the Raps in games when there is not production from the supporting players. Its time for a block buster deal to shake this team up. Trade everyone except for Bosh, jose, O'Neal and Roko. I AM SO FRUSTRATED WITH THE SITUATION WITH BC RIGHT NOW. PLEASE MR GM OF THE YEAR THERE MUST BE A TEAM OUT THERE WITH A WING THAT YOU CAN GET....RAPS4LIFE

I dont even no where to begin, i mean even with the current roster this team should be doing way better than this! it seem to me that its the players fault not going out there doing the little things like putting a body on someone, diving for loose ball,they shooting too much,i dont understand why the whole team is scared to drive the ball,even though there not all that talented at some position, they should still go out and give a 100% and i sure dont see that happenning.

i've been messing around with the ESPN Trade Machine and even though a lot of outlandish trade proposals work, at the end of the day the Raptors don't have much other teams would want. (let's be honest here) this trade proposal makes some sense though:

Chris Bosh
+filler

for

Rodney Stuckey
Tayshawn Prince
1st round draft pick

PROS
- Chris Bosh's value is near its all-time high right now.. if the Raptors are to lose him, it might as well be for 2 studs and a 1st rounder
- Andrea Bargnani becomes the starting PF (alongside O'Neal and Prince)
- Rodney Stuckey can play the point, defend, and drive to the net.. our PG situation all of a sudden reverts back to top3 in the league

CONS
- Andrea Bargnani becomes the starting PF
- the team is left without a go-to guy/scorer (it can't be worse than it is now; worse case scenario we finish with a terrible record and draft Stephen Curry)

thoughts?

I love watching the Raptors but I also turned it off early last night. I couldn't stand watching Golden State pass the ball around and have w-i-d-e o-p-e-n shots, time and time again. Puh-lease, I know they're an offensively oriented team but outside of the Harlem Globetrotters, I've never seen anyone toy with another team like GS did last night. When do Raptors play Boston again? It might the biggest loss in Toronto's history

Pugalug, I was thinking of much the same Bosh trade. Doubt Detroit will part with Stuckey but how about Amir Johnson and Prince plus a pick for Bosh and Moon? Wonder if BC has the stones?

And I'm not dissing Bosh. He's an excellent player but I think the last 3 years indicate he's more likely a Scottie Pippen than a Michael Jordan. Pippen was still a great player.

I'd still hit the Hornets up in a Bargs & an expiring for Julian Wright plus one of their not-so-great contracts. Hollinger at ESPN seems to agree the Hornets need frontcourt help and could deal Wright.

No trades and stop worrying about the playoffs. I see it this way: We continue to vaguely suck this year and finally get a lottery pick instead of going out in the 1st round again. JO is a rental at the tail-end of his career. His contract comes off the books in 2010, we get the cap space, and Bargs gets a chance to learn while backing up (maybe not the original plan, but whatever). We get 2 years to figure out if Bargs can play - if not, deal him. BC has shown himself to be ruthless when necessary. Forget about the wings this year - we suck and will continue to suck. This off-season, bring someone in who will shore up that position, make CB4 happier, and make us better next year (i.e. upward trajectory). Finally, don't deal JKap - if Ukic continues to develop, his slash to the basket style will better suit JKap on the second unit anyway. Also, RO gives me hope as a back-up PG - hopefully he can learn to shoot and finish in off-season al la Calderon.

In other words, patience is the virtue this year (which I know we've been saying for a long time and we all had higher expectations this year, but again, I'd rather be lottery than one and done in playoffs again).

I agree with Nfan. This is no team to make the playoff with and if Raps do get in with the current roaster they will surely be one and done and that would ruin our chance of getting a lottery pick this off season. So what do the Raps do keep the same team, lower the expectation like we did with the Leafs and tank the rest of the season for a lottery pick...Unless BC can make a deal that put some decent players on the court with CB4, JO and Jose. Those are the only choice that is out there Lego master get some players or start giving major minutes to our bench players and we are gauranteed a decent pick in draft.....raps4life

Great, its December and already Raptors fans are "fantanking" for a lottery pick... What a disapointment this season has been.

For the love of Pete. Trade Bosh again? Jesus pull your heads out of the sand. He is not the problem. Nor is Jose. We potentially have 2 allstar level players and spine in the form of Jermaine. Those 3 are the building blocks. Consider them a tripod. Build around them. For some strange reason I have a feeling that Jermaine will resign in 2010 but at a much lower cost. And whats this about tanking the season already? Give them a break guys. I was a negative thinker too but I saw some improvements on defence since Jay has taken over. You can't just teach a system in a matter of a month or two. This team will take babysteps for awhile but hey thats how championship teams are built (that and trading.). Look at Cleveland. Its taken them a good 5 years or so to really build a winner that will contend for a title. And don't you dare say they were good back when they made the finals either. This team is a key player or two away from really being among the best. Bargnani is one of those pieces. Hes shown flashes of brilliance on the court. Just remember, Nash took quite awhile to really develop into his MVP form. As for the Kings trade, well Franchise, the Kings did take Sheldon Williams. Maybe we could package something for Salmons and Miller for Bargnani, Parker and a draft pick (yeah I know I said don't trade Bargnani but hey playing GM is fun.). I haven't given up on this team yet. As a Leaf fan, I've learnt to keep the faith.

Thor: i agree with you to a certain extent, but you ruined it for me when you wrote 'As a Leaf fan, I've learnt to keep the faith'.. ugh. =)

it's true that all of us hyper-rabid Raptor fans need to chill a bit and have more patience. i have seen many improvements since Jay Triano took over and my gut tells me that for the first time in years, someone is actually coaching the team and the players are getting better over time.

however.. whichever way you look at it, this current Raptors team has some key glaring holes:

- backup PG
- two wing players that can drive to the net, defend (and rebound!)
- a defensive leader, someone who gets the 5 players on the court to play team defense

..which is why I mentioned the Bosh trade. If they can get 2 studs and a 1st rounder, why not? I'd rather have a younger, more complete team than a team with an all-star and below average players at the other positions. This current team is a 7th or 8th seed, at best.. with no chance of a first-round playoff series win. The last thing Raptors fans need is another sports team that suffers in mediocrity.

that said.. i like Bosh, and would love it if Colangelo could find some way to rebuild and keep Bosh at the same time. we'll find out soon enough =)

REBOUNDING,REBOUNDING,REBOUNDING

Great Post Franchise,
You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I'll tell you the biggest problem with our Raptors analysts are that they don't speak their mind. Our wings constantly let the team down time and time again. Screw the politically correct jargon... If Parker or Kapono could have made one three or a two (for that matter) the Raptors would've been in a better situation. At this point, I would even take an Alvin Robertson.
As for trading Bosh talks: I don't agree with it because they would lose their fan base. Getting rid of a corner stone player again (a la Damon and VC) would hurt the team in the long run... It's a gamble. But at the same time, I would not be surprised if Bryan does execute that trade because he still has a false sense of hope that Barney's game will eventually develop. Which it won't.