Tip-In, Toronto Raptors’ Post-Game: A Gift

I completely agree franchise. I personally have always loved Andrea's game but the problem in my eyes is he needs a new start. This kid will be the one in 5 years playing on some other team being a leading or secondary scorer and we will all be like what happened? Two things, one moving to a new team he will no longer carry the burden of number one draft pick (ala kwame brown when he went to LA, noone expected anything anymore) and two he will be able to flourish in a system that has room for him. Andrea is so young he needs that confidence and you only get that by being able to play your game. He has been asked to switch between his original game to post game so many times even the greatest players would start to doubt themselves. Unfortunately for the raptors this is like winning the handicap olympics. I think we are a team caught in nowhere land, not good enough to win now and not bad enough to grab some good lottery picks. Getting off on a tangent. Who here thinks BC has done a good job? Think collectively of what he has done and keep this in mind, doesnt it seem like everytime he makes a mistake he trades that person for another mistake?? Aside from bringing in AP and maybe jorge what good has BC done?? Also who here is getting tired of jose picking the ball up immaturely like he is still in high school. Anyways sorry for being a downer but i couldnt help feel semi depressed that once again we almost let a depleted, bad clipper team back into the game which we had a 20 point lead in. Merry xmas!

Franchise,
I have to disagree on your AB take.

Here's a guy who has shown he has the skills, but needs confidence. So what do we do? We start him, we don't. We play him at the 3 one game, the 4 in another, as well as the 5. And we run minimal plays for him.

Then at the beginning of the season, Mitchell tells him to stop taking 3s. So what do we do now? We position him at the perimeter.

Ever wonder why all the GMs are asking for Bargs? It's because they think he has great potential, and that Toronto's too stupid to figure him out.

Toronto's (major) sports have a history of screwing up draft choices, like it's no tomorrow. It's time to reverse that trend, before we become like the Leafs of past.

Which speaking of them, ever notice how they've changed tactics. No longer relying on the veterans -- they're playing the rookies and new guys, and doing okay too.

Now that would be odd to see the Leafs get it right in the present, while the Raps mimic their past.

Your comments are spot on. I focused on Bargnani in the game and he is not part of the offence. He would post up and his team mates would look at him and pass somewhere else. Not only is he lacking confidence, his team mates lack confidence in him.

interesting too that in the post game scrum with triano, he admitted that he's playing bargs less because when both bosh and o'neal are going, as they were last night, there's just no minutes for the big (third year) rook. and he has to play him away from the basket to give those guys their space.

tough place to be if you're BC. o'neal is rounding into form and I'd say he's actually playing better than he was just before the injury. this a better o'neal anyone could have hoped for. but how much time does he realistically have left in him? if you're BC and triano, can you afford to sit bargs and watch him sink for the next season and half behind o'neal? or do you swallow your pride, and move him knowing full well that he still just might be the player you thought he could be, just not on this team.

or do you move o'neal now and put all your peperoni onto one underdeveloped doughy pizza?

probably wouldn't taste so good, would it? crazy to think, I'm pretty certain BC has no choice now but to move bargs. reluctantly.

hey and good on you guys for getting the '3 in the key' up last night and an early 'tip in'.

happy holidays to everyone in and around the HQ.

A couple of thoughts.

- I really hope that we don't trade JO right now. We are really starting to see that player that we were hoping to see when we jettisoned TJ to Indiana (he has been seemingly unstoppable posting up lately). He really changes the way other teams score on the Raps. In the past, players would score too easily driving the lane. It still happens, but JO makes them think twice. We just need Bosh to produce alongside JO if we want to win games. The key for the Raps here is to do exactly what they did last night. Push the ball to JO and Bosh. When the Clips would close in on them they would send the ball back out. We have seen this only sparingly this year, but as you mentioned Franchise it's what the Raps were expected to do since the start of the season, but have gone away from utilizing one of their perceived strengths. Hopefully, Jay recognizes this and adjusts the offense accordingly.

- I feel bad for Bargs, but he has been so jerked around by this franchise that I doubt we will ever see his full potential...at least as Raps fans. He started the season very confident and was producing, but now we are starting to see the AB from last season. I am not sure if now is the time to move him, but this team showed last night that if it can play to its strengths and properly utilize this roster, they can be a good team. And, yes I know that we were playing a beaten up Clips squad. It's just that the Raps were playing their game against an inferior opponent, which is something that they didn't do against OKC. A Salmons type of player would really open things up for this team and would allow JO and Bosh to be most effective. If is has to be at the expense of Bargs well... Here's hoping that all it would take is a Parker and Hump expiring contract or even Kapono's contract (I believe the terms are similar)...just my thoughts!

You failed to mention no Kaman or Camby. Might have a little to do with our inside dominance. But hey, credit the team for taking advantage of the opportunity.
Andreas looked absolutely lost last night and RT stated the obvious, it looked like his teammates have lost confidence in him. Him getting back to his early season play is a must. Quite the predicament for BC. Do you give up on him, trade him at a discount or continue to wait for him to develope. I, myself, don't know.
Solomon looked like he belonged, and Voshkul, lets just say it looked like Bosh wanted to kiss him last night.
This team is an enigma wrapped in a mystery(I just made that up)!

Franchise, my sincerest apologies, re-read your summary(dedicated reader that I am) and you did mention Kaman and Camby being out. I guess I expected it in the first paragraph instead of an afterthought.

I agree with franchise here too - yes bargs has been jerked around but give me a break, at the most base level, the kid was supposed to be able to score. Playing time up or down, whatever, he should at least be able do that and its not happening. Hes not scoring, not posting up, not really doing anything. Its 4 on 5 offensively for toronot when hes on the court and bc needs to decide what to do. If he could get a rebuilding team collecting assets and looking to dump salary to take him, he might get a great return. I think you guys said earlier this year that seattle had a ton of draft picks, oops okc, so maybe that works...

Interesting that Bosh was the central figure in this morning's ESPN.com "Daily Dime" - and not in the usual "he's leaving Toronto" manner:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081223

I think most will agree that Bargs isn't in the most ideal scenario for a player like him to flourish.

And if last night is any indication, Bosh can play with another big body down low. JO and Bosh have been a good combo this year. If you temper your expectations for a 20 million dollar man and accept that we received a former All-Star, injuries aside, he's been the best player we've ever pair with Bosh down low. From what I've seen Bosh doesn't need a big who can shoot from the outside, he needs a big who can bang with him, a big who can watch his back. I have been pleased with JO, not 20 million dollars pleased, but glad to have him on the court. As far as the rest of the team goes, that's where our problems lie... as everyone knows.

I really think it's time to cut your loses if your BC. Bargs will probably flourish elsewhere... but as I've said before... if Bosh is your priority then Bargs has to go. They don't work together... and it isn't getting any better.

If I'm Bosh, looking at re-signing for 6 years and seeing that I'll have to play next to Bargs for most if not all of those 6 years, I'm going to look at my other options really carefully before I commit to carrying his load on my back, on top of the great expectations I already carry.

Bargs has to go.

I think Bosh said it best (re: Daily Dime)

"As much as the media or fans think it affects them, we're the ones trying," Bosh said. "They have to keep that in mind. It hurts to try your hardest and still come up short sometimes. People have to keep that in mind. Some people ask me, 'Does it hurt you as much as it hurts me to lose?' It's like, 'Yeah, I'm out there playing. What do you think?' I give my effort. I give 100 percent."

I think bargs needs to sit for a while because it's ridiculous to give him all these minutes when he's not producing and playing like a center.

The guy once again just does not know where he should stand on the court in any given offensive situation. I blame that on the crazy things that have been asked of him so far.

At least I'd like to see Triano re-focus on playing him as a center.

Case in point, right after he enters the game, he goes under the hoop and has deep position on a smaller guy. AP has the ball and a great passing angle, but doesn't deliver, if I was bargs, I'd be going wtf??

I have this love hate relationship with Toronto fans. I love the fact that we’re a unqiue fan base – it’s very entertaining, but it can also drive you nuts. T-dotters have a memory like an elephant and a complex. They love their underskilled overachievers, but will turn on a dime on against their superstars. God help you if they think you’re a highly rated underachiever. The worst was the Larry Murphy era. Larry came in with a HOF type resume and was the scapegoat for the Leafs woes. At the end of the day, it wasn’t his performance more so his contract. The insesent booing every time Murphy touched the puck was ridiculous. Fast forward to Bryan McCabe – a pretty average defenceman prior to his contract, but he became the target after his undeserved pay raise. We love our blue collar grinders.

But nothing more highly illustrates Toronto fan’s mentality than wrasslin’. I grew up a wrasslin’ fan, but havn’t watched anything on TV for years. Flicked it on last night since the show was in Toronto, and it totally reminded of what I loved about Toronto in the wrestling world has been known to be Bizzaro land, where fans cheer for the bad buys and boo the good. I think this is more due to the fans intimate knowledge of who is a good technical performer vs a good persona. T-dot fans love substance over style – except when it comes to Hulk Hogan (which I never understood). This was not more true than in Wrestlemania 18 in March of 2002 in Skydome where the overwhelming babyface "The Rock" was wrestling the then supposed heal of Hogan, in which The Rock got booed mercilessly. So much so that the plots of those characters were changed after that show. It was entertaining to watch as both performers had to change their personas midway thru the match completely unscripted – that only could have happened here in Toronto.

And last night, 11 years later after the "Montreal Screwjob", T-dot fans were still chanting "you screwed Bret" to Shawn Michaels (I’ll let you guys do the research if you’re interested). We never forget.

So how does all this relate to hoops? I think fans bring the same mentality. Huge complex, highly critical and we never forget. In the short history of the Raps, I think only one player has truly endured himself to the fans, and that’d be JYD. He was our Tie Domi/Wendel Clark. An overperforming, underskilled player. To some extent I think Oak almost makes that list, however I will admit, that’s when I REALLY became a raps fan – I was always a huge Oak fan.

Toronto fans in the hoop world is really separted into two categories. Raptor fans (and those who follow the above tendencies) and Basketball fans, those who grew up a hoops fan before there was a team here. I think the second category watches the games slightly differently and don’t necessarily exude the same tendencies of the common rap fans. Maybe it’s because they had to cheer for other winners/losers before the Raps, maybe it’s because they don’t take it a personally because they enjoy the beauty of the game first and foremost.

Anyways.. it was a slow day at work and felt like writing.

BC made a huge mistake when he took Bargnani over Roy and Aldridge and its time he owns up to it and try and move Andrea to a team that could possible help him out. Raps just can't afford to be waiting 4 years for Andrea to show signs of an NBA player everyone else from his class has gotten over the hump, he seems lost on the court at times, everytime he was in the game last night the Clipps make a run because of the shots that Andrea was missing with no one under the basket to rebound. either move him or bench him and let him watch. Last night I was watching the game on the LA feed and they were calling Voskhul the enforcer the guy has added some seriously needed toughness to the raps. Did you see him just through Zack to the floor, they were calling him protector of the paint. I like his toughness.

I almost forget for all my Raps fans that have Rogers cable their is a little light at the end of the tunnel. I found a site that show full length games online. Last night the game came on the Clippers version of Raptors TV...NBA TV. It was perfect, their commentators were just singing praises for Bosh, JO and Calderone and Parker.

Here is the link...they show all sports..nba, soccer you name it....http://atdhe.net/
so much for TSN2 try this site you guys will love it...Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone and God Bless...Raps4Life

Our Raps needed that win. You could tell that JO and CB were not gonna let us lose to a injury riddled Clippers team. They were SICK of the losing. Bargs is DONE. Guy has the confidence level of an overweight teen girl. His minutes should go to Jake the Snake and Humps. At least they play physical. I hoped for the best with the big veggie but he flat out sucks and is killing our team whenever he's out there.His teammates have zero confidence in him. Trade him please for the sake of Raps fans sanity. Nice win and I agree that we gotta play inside out. Feeding the ball to JO and CB as much as possible. O'Neal has been awesome as of late and I hope he keeps it up.

UStation - Totally agree with your take on the two types of Raps fans. Luckily I think most of us who post here at the HQ were ball fans as well as individually, fans of the Toronto Raptors. I think that's why the discussion is always so in-depth as opposed to just "raps suck" type one-offs.

So do we have a new name for Mr. Voskuhl? Jake the Snake has some serious photo-shop potential to it that's for sure.

Oh - and good to see via the Star this morning that Colangelo laughed off the Bulls.com piece about him "panicking." Not that it was a big surprise. Sam Smith is neck-and-neck with Peter Vescey in terms of "ridiculous rumours and insider tales."

Remember this guy?

Giorgos Printezis.

We bought his rights from the Spurs during the 2007 draft.

Here are his Euro stats:
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=AMM

I don't get where all you Bargnani supporters are coming from. Run plays for him? When he gets the ball he shoots. Or he might make an out of control drive to the basket where he'll dunk if he beat his man but he won't even get off the floor if someone stays decently close to him. You wonder why his teammates ignore him? Have you ever seen him make a pass in to Bosh or hit a cutter or make a quick pass around the horn? Does he make his teammates better? For my money he's a one trick pony and unless someone works hard with him to get his head out his arse out the court, he'll never reach the potential that we all wish he had.

Franchise: Yeah it's pretty easy to spot baller fans vs homer fans. And that's why I'm here too. I know my non-rap specific talk pisses a few people off, but I like to talk about hoops with a Raps slant.

Anyways... I'm calling BS on all ROY vs Bargs talk. Yes we can be upset that we didn't get ROY, but I'm calling BS on those who are saying they thought we should have drafted ROY on draft night. This is more directed to a few people I know that had this conversation in life.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY pegged Roy at #1. I love revisionist history, but come on, if it were up to the fans, we'd probably have Adam Morrison! Can someone at the HQ pull out the old comments?!?! It was 50/50 between him and LaMarcus - and seriously, how much better would be with Aldridge?
Probably mildly -- though Raptornation (c) would be a lot calmer with 5 more wins.

Was it a mistake to draft AB? Probably, but a HUGE mistake not taking Roy? Well 4 other GMs made that same mistake.

I mean, how would we feel if we drafted Shelden Williams? Now THAT's a huge mistake!

Would we have been happier with Tyrus Thomas? (Who was probably the fans #3 pick at the time.)

BC made a calculated gamble and I completely aggree with the decision. I'd roll the dice on a superstar big man anyday. It's why most GMs do - and I've pointed out the importance of a superstar Big in the past.

It's why Bogut went ahead of Deron & Chris Paul. It's why Darko went #2 (could you imagine Detroit with Bosh or Melo or Wade?) and are you going to tell me Dumars doesn't know what he's doing too?

Let's see, others: Kwame Brown over Pau, Brand over Baron, Olowakandi over Carter/Jamison/Pierce, a million people over Kobe Bryant.

Hmmmm if there's a lesson to be learnt is maybe you shouldn't gamble on a big, but every GM in the NBA knows the importance of making the 1 pick for a BIG - even if it means failing 80% of the time.

ustation: solid call. The consensus on Roy at the time was that either a) his knee was a big problem (and it still might be), or b) he was NBA-ready, but already close to his ceiling, and would never be a star.

Aldridge was definitely the choice around here (Thomas being second), because at the time our main need was a big to play with CB4. The reality is that on paper, Bargs was the most interesting talent in the top 10, with Rudy Gay being right up there, but he was considered by many to be unready, and was potentially an underachiever. I still think Gay in going to be the best player from that draft, but NO ONE had him going at the number 1 spot.
We got the number 1 in a draft with no number 1, and we gambled on a guy with the tools to be a monster (those games when he starts dropping 3s and dunking on people show us the potential is there), but who is mentally fragile, and will probably never reach his ceiling or anything approaching it.
For frustrated fans, I suggest you do as I do: Expect NOTHING from Bargs. Forget about him, and when he does something good, just enjoy it in the moment, and then forget about him again. It is much less painful this way.

All you Bargs bashers suffer from Leafitis- a collective collection where you mistreat a young athlete and then throw them under the bus before they become solid players somewhere else. Bargs will be okay with a limited role. He has never gotten an identity in this league and he seems to be the second slowest thinker on the court, first when Moon is on the bench. It will take time to let him refine a few things. He's improved his big man skills around the basket big time. What he is not doing, and it is vital to him, is hit his shots. My question is at what range? He was doing well at the start of the year because he was focussing on his mid-range jumpers. We screwed him up by making him a 3 and sticking him back out beyond the arc. Now, he's lost again. Just tell him one or two things to work on and let him. Don't give up on this guy.

Assasin and Ustation - totally agree (except for Brand over Baron, watching BDiddy last night reminded me of why he's one of the top 5 underachievers that I can think of in NBA history. La-zy.) Roy was my second favourite from the draft behind Tyrus Thomas. I actually thought Roy's ceiling was much lower after watching his college career - he reminded me of a more talented Mo Pete at Michigan State; a solid defender who could play various positions, a guy who could know down the long-range bomb, and while not overly athletic, a player who could get to the rim and dunk on you if let him get by.

Yep, I was SLIGHTLY off.

At the time too, I thought that Tyrus Thomas could give the Raptors the athleticism they needed at both ends of the court (remember, this was even before Jamario Moon) and his play in the NCAA tourney locking down guys really was impressive.

So far, looks like he might be the biggest bust of all behind only Adam Morrison.

And let's not forget other guys like Randy Foye who were supposed to be immediate impact players. Roy, and to a lesser extent Gay and Aldridge, have turned out to be the only gems among those top picks.

Also, from Chad Ford's chat wrap today:

Michele (Granada Hills, CA): Will the Raptors make a deal soon? Losing to the Thunder was not good.

Chad Ford: It's bad, but what do they do. If they trade Jermaine O'Neal, it will be for cap relief, not to win now. Bargnani is a legit chip, but is what they can get in return (a player like John Salmons) worth it? I don't see anyone really turning this team into a contender right now.

I think I might be one of those Bargs backers. I think Bargs is in a great position right now backing up JO and CB. He can do that for the next year and a half, develop. He looked amazing coming off the bench, after a summer big man camps. Then the desperate shift out to the 3? Give him time, Ford is right. You don't trade AB for a guy that might make you a 4th/5th seed in the East. Just wait and don't expect too much, We don't need to expect anything above average from Bargs for another year and a half. Give him a consistent role to grow into.

Now to throw all that under the bus, i'm on the Jake band wagon.

My buddy Phil knew a guy that went to Vegas when Bargnani and O'Neal were there. He managed to meet them at a casino. He asked Jermaine if he was happy to be coming to Canada (cause as you know it not many nba folks fancy Canada.) Jermaine responded absolutly. I love the city so far. I'm excite for the season. Now all that has to be done is to get this guy pumped up (Bargnani). From what Phil's friend noticed, he thinks that Bargnani might be suffering from depression. The guys 4th year psychology so I would assume that he knows what hes talking about. I have to say I agree. Bargnani looks like hes mentally lost and battling personal issues. Lets hope he finds a way to fix it.

Wow, the apologists for Bargnani on this board are impressive in their self-delusion. Just because he has turned out "better" than Morrison, Thomas or SWilliams -- and objectively worse than Aldridge, Roy and Gay -- doesn't make him GOOD.

Some of you are even willing to give him another 1.5 years to prove his worth in the league, or to have "no expectations" at all. Guess what, gang. If he wasn't a first round pick, let alone a #1 overall pick, he'd be right back at Benetton right now. But because he has a guaranteed contract and upside that he has not consistently exhibited for the past season and a half, he's worth the waiting for?

Look, I am all for rationalizing the pick; it was what it was and there was no clear cut #1. But fast forward to TODAY, and giving excuses (i.e. "being jerked around") for continual atrociously bad performances -- that nearly cost his team a win last night against a severly undermanned opposition (especially in their front court) -- is ridiculous.

And, if I may extrapolate, granting more-and-more leeway to a player who is uneven at best, represents Canadians in a nutshell -- being satisfied with mediocrity. And no, unlike BargsBust of last season's posts, I am not throwing him under the bus. But I am throwing those of YOU under the bus who thinks continued coddling, such as a "set role", will make a difference in his 3rd, wait, 4th, ok, 5th year in the league. But I guess when BC brings in Messina, Bargs will explode into the next coming of Dirk, right? Right?

I have to laugh when I hear how CB & JO make a great 2some. Hell, we're 11 & 17. Sounds more like a Leaf hang-over working its' magic.

Never-the-less, today seems to be a ... I hate AB / Give AB a chance debate.

As Chad Ford has stated, what exactly do we expect from an AB trade. I think GM's are lining up, licking their chops. I just hope BC doesn't fall prey to that type of big smile that Danny Ainge had when he pulled his sucker trade.

Then again, this is Toronto, where we seem to everybody's whipping boy.

Sometimes i think there is too much time between games and some posters here have too much time to think too hard. This bargs bashing is funny, two weeks ago people were signing his praises now he is dog shit. One week ago bosh was the most over rated player ever and should be traded. I feel sorry for who ever has an off game next.

I don't understand why so many people spend so much time "calling out" an entire site's commenters as if they are one person.

Bargnani has to stop playing like a girl. He needs to step up, enough is enough. Driving with his head down, I saw this in year 1, it's year 3 and he has no excuses, none. He has to play better. Don't take a three until you make a couple regular shots, isn't that the normal way to do things. He's getting nice chances to show his stuff, and it shouldn't matter where he plays, it should matter how bad he wants it.
I've always wondered, why not put Bosh at the 3 if you are going to play all the bigs at once. Why not have a nimbler Bosh around the perimeter and Bargs down lower? Anyways, it's been long enough, he's got no excuses, not another 1.5 years crap, play Defence and bump and grind down low and have fun doing it. Your 7 feet playing in the NBA with two All Stars right there to learn from, No Excuses anymore.

I honestly haven`t seen enough games this year to fully apppreciate everyone`s specific roles (in a way different time zone), though once again, we have three really good PFs and trying to mold them together is a major pain. This O`Neal/Bosh tandem is far from the Twin Towers that people have been hoping for and it seems one always has to be the "Go To Guy" as their offensive games don`t mesh together. With Bargs, he`s good enough to be a starting PF, though it was the wrong pick when you`re already built around a starting PF.

Hey, the Raps and Leafs won on the same night! Any bets whether we`ll see that again for a while?

I am not exactly singing the praises of Andrea, although I have admittedy been a backer. My point is that I would be very careful what I got back for Andrea. Bargs has shown flashes of his potential, it is these flashes that prove that he still has potential. If we look at posts from early on in the season, everyone was clamoring how he had arrived. I think Andrea has improved steadily and still has the potential to be a uniquely excellent player in the A. He is also in a position right now to back up two former all stars while developing his game.

Dare I say the Andrea at SF experiment was a desperate act by a coach on his way out. Andrea is a big, he is developing well as a big. Who would have guessed that he could be so strong defensively?

I am not desperately blowing sunshine up his arse. He does need to toughen up and he can sit on the bench if others are outperforming him. But I am not sending him home because he didn't play well enough in a win. I am more than willing to be patient rather than replace him with a journeyman combo guard that doesn't want to be here.

Just to quickly weigh in on the Bargs debate. He seems to be most comfortable at the 4, and obviously that will keep him out of the starting lineup. As for Bargs at the 3, I can see it being useful as a "last resort" kind of scenario, but it's just too much to ask of him on a regular basis.

My big question for those closer to the team is .... what is the locker room sentiment on Bargs? Does he have a good attitude? Will he be happy as a bench guy if they start winning? I'm curious to know what's going on in his head and to know what he's like as a teammate.

Franchise? Vicious? Anyone?

jjdynomite i totally agree with you. That is the same reason the Leafs have gone 42 years without a championship because the Toronto fans always settle for mediocrity. Bargs is lost on the court this is not the Euro league this is the best basketball league in the world and you can't be babysitting the number 1 overall pick for 4 or 5 years for productivity. I say BC uses Barg to get what he can right now. I have no confidence that his game will ever improved, a mistake is a mistake and taking Bargs number 1 was a huge mistake by the GM that needs to be corrected....Raps4Life.

Franchise, I remember that Duke/UConn game very well; definitely one of the great NCAA finals. Duke was stacked, but UConn wasn't exactly a pushover squad, with El-Amin, Voskuhl, Rip Hamilton etc.

Probably no one will believe me, but I was one of the few pushing for Brandon Roy with that pick. I know the knee is a concern, but he's tough as nails and he doesn't really have a weakness to his game as far as I can see. Sometimes I wonder if the guys who make the personnel decisions actually watch NCAA basketball. I have my doubts.

I'm almost ready to pull the plug on the Bargnani experiment. I think the bottom line is this: Big men have to play big. A 7 footer who doesn't rebound or post up is about as useful as tits on a bull.

Ok, so if BC's truly interested in a trade, like reports are saying, I'm betting he's been in touch with Gstate. Apparently everyone wants out of Gstate. Would any of you take some pickings from G?

I wouldn't mind Stephen Jackson. Kalena Azubieke (sp?) sounds intriguing at the 3.

Bargnani with his current skillset = Steve Novak from the Clippers with a worse FG%. Keep in mind, Novak was a "specialty" player when he was drafted as a 2nd round pick back with Houston.

Bargnani's "best case scenario" -- which used to be Nowitzki -- is probably someone like Tom Gugliotta / Tim Thomas / Donyell Marshall / Christian Laettner... guys that scored 15-18 ppg at their peak, grabbed 5-8 rbs/game, and generally were considered role players for most of their careers.

(I know that Gugliotta was an All-Star one year, and Laettner was an All-Star plus on the dream team, but I'm talking total career averages)

So - if Laettner and Gugliotta are Bargnani's best-case scenario, I'd say his worst-case scenario is that he stays the same and has a career like Matt Bullard or Pat Garrity. That would make him hands down the worst #1 pick in the history of the NBA. I mean, even Sam Bowie played 10 years and averaged over 10 ppg and 7 rpg.

I totally forgot that Sam Bowie was #2 behind Hakeem.

I guess that Olowokandi and Kwame would be the worst #1 picks of all time... but at least they were starters on their teams for a while!

BC - Great post. I actually turned to my sister at one point during the game and said "look at Andrea, if you didn't know he was a top pick, there'd be basically no difference between him and Novak. He's like a slightly more athletic and tall Nick Fazekas."

I'd be thrilled if he even got to the Keith Van Horn level at this point.

The depression angle is interesting, especially from what I saw around the team at Media Day and training camp etc. There was SUCH an emphasis by Colangelo and others about how Bargs' attitude had improved, and I remember the RaptorsTV folks discussing how much more "smiley" he was and how much more willing he was to talk to reporters etc.

That always made me shake my head.

I mean, language barriers aside, which by the way have never really been a MAJOR hurdle for Bargs compared to others, why on earth would this be such a big deal? Was he REALLY that anti-social in years one and two?

And again, I think Andrea will be a good player in the league; I just think he needs to be on another team in order to really develop.

Finally Nick - love to have either Jackson or Azubuike (especially the latter because of his contract.) I still don't understand why BC didn't make a major play for him this off-season considering his low price-tag for the talent he brings.
Jackson's new deal would be tough to swallow long-term, but he'd give the team a swagger and toughness it's lacked forever, not to mention a great wing defender.

It's easy for us to put down Bargnani as an underachiever but I agree with Rob A. that I'd sooner try to tutor him than trade him for a journeyman of any sort. I have to keep reminding myself that he's a relative neophyte to basketball and really doesn't understand the game except for catch and shoot. He has beefed up, he's blocked a few shots, he has worked on a pull up midrange jumper and he has dunked on some drives. That's progress and shows that he's willing to develop his game. As much as he drives me nuts, I can see a big man front line with O'Neal, Bosh and Bargnani that could be awesome. Just don't ask him to guard someone 25 ft away from the basketball. Bosh couldn't do it either. And I love Bosh so don't think I'm knocking him.

something like bargnani/kapono for stephen jackson would be awesome... I wonder what JO would think about the reunion

Re: Trading for Stephen Jackson

If we trade for Stephen Jackson, you kinda have to at least initiate talks with Houston for Artest... Don't you? I mean the opportunity to have the three major participants of the "Malace at the Palace" re-united would be too funny an oportunity to pass up.
I keed, I keed...

As for Bargnani, I too am concerned about mental make-up of this kid, specifically the depression angle that was mentioned before. It would definitely explain a lot. It would also definitely damage the credibility of that ridiculous calliper test. How ironic that one of the reason’s listed for his draft selection was that his calliper test (the psychological test used to gauge the psychological make-up of players entering the NBA draft) scores were "off the charts" and now his mental stability (more accurately fragility) is being called to question. I’ve always been a strong believer that personality/psychological tests are wholly unscientific, subjective and irrelevant. The case of Andrea Bargani is just another example. Maybe he was all smiles in pre-season, but he looked absolutely mentally shattered in the Clipper game when he helped key that Clipper run in the third.

How low can it get with Bargs? Well if Jake "the Snake" Voskuhl is deservedly getting your minutes, you have to wonder if it can get any worse…

big time AB discussion going on here.

the depression stuff to me is ridiculous. not that it's not possibly real, it very well could be. I just think the kid's in a tough spot right now that I don't think anybody would be too joyous about. he was asked to learn a completely new position last year playing the 5. he'd never done that before. think about that people. the 5, in the NBA. it's not easy. but he went out through the summer and somehow managed to bring back some game with him.

he obviously has talent. now whether he can continue to progress or not, is up to him as much as it is up to his coaches. a steady role with steady minutes would help, no doubt. so would another off-season of big man camps.

I'm with franchise - I think the kid will be fine. probably even better than fine. just not on this team.

In all honesty, does Bargs even have any value to move? I'm not sure you would get enough for him to make it a better scenario than keeping him and developing him slowly.

It's been said before and I'll say it again... it takes YEARS for big men to develop in the NBA. We all know that.

As a basketball fan who's had glimpses of his talent, I really hope he can reach his full potential as a Raptor. As a realist, I can't help but agree that it will only happen on another team where the expectations aren't so great. I mean seriously, it's like we expect him to be the greatest SF, the greatest PF and the greatest C after three seasons in the NBA. And for anyone that wants to argue that THAT is the kind of pressure he's under, just check the game logs to see how much time he's spent at each (please dont check that... I cant actually back that up....LOL)

Love the hq - xmas eve and a huge bargnani discussion going down!

I think he'll be ok but bc REALLY jumped the gun on him. Hes mike miller but taller to me, and he's going to be frustrating as hell for another year and a half. So our old boy Colange really put all his eggs in one basket by thinking he was going to help carry the team this year with jose, bosh and jo.

Again, I think he'll be ok but it's going to take more time and he's not going to become an All-Star type, just a solid sixth man guy so BC needs to draft and draft well this coming year.

With Bargnani, I'm apt to take a "set it and forget it" approach. This is the approach we'd take if instead of a number one pick, he was the 20th overall. Where someone get's picked should not influence how they are treated, in and of itself. In Barg's case, the Raptors saw great potential, and have tried to provide the conditions for his development. Some bumps to be sure, but his development can't always trump the needs of the team. If he was the best option at the 3, then so be it. It's not like we parachuted him into the DMZ for a few weeks. If there is a consensus its that, at this point, the difference between trading him now and hanging on to him is minimal. The perimeter shooting PF is no longer a rare breed, take a look at the previous few drafts. Bargs hasn't distinguished himself from that pack, why should another team give up a good asset for him? Cause he was the number 1 pick in a weak draft?

Whether we decide to move him or keep him, its gonna require an extended period of consistent play on his part, either good or bad. He came back from the summer with noticeable changes to his game, so I'm not in the "Trade him for a Gatorade Dispenser" camp. Let's bide our time on this, and hold out for some value, both from him and other teams.

In the mean time, BC get us under the cap!!! A team as devoid of assets such as ours has no excuse not to sign a few D-leaguers and have them develop while retaining their rights. I know the odds of them developing are slim, but they are better by far then having two empty seats at the end of the roster.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL MY HQ STAFF AND POSTERS AND ALL RAPS FANS EVERYWHERE. AND A BIG MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ANDREA BARGNANI AND ALL THE RAPTORS PLAYERS AND STAFF...GOD BLESS....LETS TURN IT AROUND ITS TIME NOW....PICK IT UP AB...TORONTO TRULY LOVE YOU....RAPS4LIFE

Merry Christmas Raptors brothers (and sisters if any women read this forum). Here's to a win in Sac-town and a New Years turn-around. Have a great time ladies and gents!

Greeting. You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
I am from Bangladesh and too poorly know English, please tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "Mary kay answers first similar about the few success of the system as it can, active sales force."

THX :D, Ken.