Tip In, Raptors' Post Game: Shootout in San Antonio

It's funnny Vicious D (almost shortened it to VD but then realized that just doesn't sound right) I had the same sentiments. Fairly ok with the loss as the expectations are now well-adjusted and I am feeling calmer about our troubles in general. I would love for a trained psychologist to review the progression of the general sentiments expressed by the authors and posters of this blog. I think for a long time we were stuck in the denial stage of dealing with a tragedy (maybe a little dramatic to call this a tragedy, but for the sake of argument, and lack of a better word, I'll call it that). Now it seems as though some, if not all of us, are in the acceptance phase, willing to accept any sort of progress in team deficiencies as a small victory. Oh, how the times have changed.

I was just happy to watch a game in HD again - HATING tsn2...

raps looked alright though, calderon finally looking for his own offense. moon and kapono are the real problems

Vicious D,
Thanks for taking a positive approach to the game last night. I was less positive.
It has been a failing of Toronto teams, not just the Raps, to not give time and instruction to players so that they can develop into contributors. Note the play in the starting line up of Mason and Bonner. If Bonner were here we'd be lamenting about his lack of athleticism. Instead, we have a 3 point shooting big in Andrea who has gotten worse at that aspect of his game in the time he's been here. Read about Bonner's struggles with confidence in the Star today and substitute Graham or Bargnani in for looking over at the bench during the game. We have to develop players here and stop whining about the games today, because we are not a championship contender. Playing a bunch of cap soaking veteran players is not working! Bargs, Graham, Ukic, Bosh,Hump, and Jawai need to play and be looked at as part of a winning team of 2011. Yes, this is the Babcock plan from some time ago.

I still support the acquisition of O'Neal because we had to get Bosh some help. The cost was steep, but it was a shot worth taking at this point, especially since Ford was a problem. However, we have flipped a ROY runner up in Charlie V. into Ford and then into O'Neal. We need to draft well and develop. Show some faith in our guys, Toronto. And get some patience.

There's one thing I forgot to mention, but the Raptors need to work on their end of game scenarios more. Too often lately, Bosh is jacking up a 3 or the Raptors look disorganized or rushed. They had some opportunities to execute in the final 2 minutes, but only really found Jermaine O'Neal once in the post.

Branden - Haha. Well, I think I grew into acceptance by following this streak via radio, and post game stuff rather going out to a bar and making an effort to see every game live. I can't speak for Howland or Franchise, but for me, it's always been about how to fix things from here, and not about lamenting too much. I do talk a lot about the recent past, but I use it more as an example of what is right, what is wrong now, and what we need to do to get back things that we have lost. It also really helps that I doubted this whole Jermaine O'Neal thing for the longest time. Even though I love the guy as a person, I just think that the Raptors put themselves in this position by relying on some pretty sub par talent.

I almost died of laughter reading the posts from the OKC fiasco. I mean people saying, that for the most part, they miss Smitch is hilarious. What is even funnier are the people sticking to their guns and are still blaming him.
Now that Smitch is gone people are blaming Bosh. And when Bosh is gone people will blame the Raptor Mascot. Maybe we should trade our mascot. I bet if we trade our mascot, we can get a couple of really good mascots and build for next year. IDIOTS.
I am not going to sit here and argue and compare the Sharrif to Bosh. Sharrifs biggest failing was that he would score his 20 in the first 3 quarters then completely disappear at the end of the game. Bosh has not consistently done that. In fact more often then not Bosh has carried this team even in the 4th quarter. The problem with him being a PF is that he can't control the distribution of the ball so if the other players freeze him out (which happened a lot in previous years) it is going to affect his play.

I agree that the moon thing is dead. Stick him deep on the bench and let's see what Joey can do as a starter. Maybe Moon needs to sit on the pine for a game or 2 to scare the crap out of him (NBA dream coming to an end and all that). The problem is, this team is so shallow that there is really no one to take his minutes. All they have is Parker, Kapono, Joey and Moon. Hardly a deep position the wing. I am starting to wonder if all this team really needs is to sign someone from the d-league to play in the 2/3 as a deep bench option. I know it sounds crazy but I think our lack of bodies may be what is hurting us not neccessarily a lack of talent. After all, as our 4 wings know they are going to get minutes as there is no one else on the roster who can play that spot, why would they push themselves.

I'm curious why people are saying that the O'Neal trade is such a disaster...

I mean, the first-round pick hurt, but let's look at the details:

- TJ Ford was the most hated man in town, and played 1-on-5 most times he was on the floor.

- Rasho was a great backup Center, but his 6-8 pts/game and 4-5 rbs/game meant that the team relied 100% on Bosh and the guards for points.

Now, JO:
- 13+ pts/game
- 7+ rbs/game
- actually blocks some shots
- can actually create a shot when the offense breaks down (sometimes with 3-4 steps, but the refs don't call that apparently)

As far as the game goes -- the only reason the Raps were ahead in the first is because the Spurs missed a ton of wide open 3's.

I'll be honest -- this loss almost seemed like a victory compared to the OKC game.

Triano got the team to actually stick to the strategy (force jumpers on D, and feed the post on Offense).

Now - if Triano could insert a couple extra plays for Kapono, Parker, and Bargnani instead of only having them shoot on broken plays -- and get Moon's D-League game off the court -- then the game might have been even closer.

BC - I've posted at length about it, but it comes down to contract. You're paying a guy $21 million a year for blocked shots, rebounds and points that are only marginally better than Nesterovic. But the problem is that with such a massive contracted linked to one player, he becomes that much more difficult to move. Yeah, the Raptors saved a little on getting out from TJ's length of contract, but you only get marginal improvement at the center position but end up diverting a lot of your budget into a position that wasn't in that much trouble to begin with.

But, well, maybe the Raptors toss this season in the tank, draft high, unload O'Neal's contract next year and look like a championship team. If that's the long term outlook, maybe that's not so bad.

About OKC and AC/DC fans:

We got THUNDERSTRUCK!

So at bare minimum the Oklahoma fans got something out of it.
I mean the tears of joy were flowing in OKC. There was talk of trading to bring back 'homeboy' Joey Graham, and frantic celebrations the likes of which one sees around World Cup soccer victories!

I'd lose like that any day - compared to getting caned by jersey or boston.

Oh and yes! I love the talk about trading the Raptor Mascot! He's a top notch asset. Think about it: 'The Raptor' has been League MVM (most valuable mascot) for several years running; That, and countless All-Star appearances.

I think getting LeBron and Clevelands first and second rounders for 'The Raptor' would be a fair trade.

Years ago I went to a basketball clinic that featured Morgan Wooten, the famous coach of Dematha high school in Washington DC. He told the story of being down at half time and nobody was playing well. He went up to his center and said " Great half Jonesy, you worked your butt off, great defense, great offense, that's the way to rebound. I want you to go out there in the second half and with that same intensity, get a second rebound and a second basket". I'm reminded of that story when I read Bargnani's line for last night's game, 17min, 2 rebs, 2 pts, 1 foul. Nice of him to show up. When he was drafted, they talked in terms of a Nowitzki. I think we'd all settle for a Bill Lambeer. Undeveloped and undevelopable.

I've said it before, but Bargnani's development does not mirror the situation of a lot of #1 overall picks because he came in playing the same position as the established star on the team and wasn't just given the ball and told to go with it. Honestly, how many shot attempts does he get in comparison to other more celebrated members of his draft class? What is the most shot attempts he has ever had in a single game? Even when starting alongside Bosh, Calderon has never been one to give him the ball in a position he feels comfortable shooting it (he often calls for it but is ignored). The O'Neal trade poses a problem for his development because he is taking away shot opportunities. I don't know how he will turn out or whether the situation is salvageable at this point, but his not being allowed to just get the ball in his hands and work out his deficiencies early in his career is now compounding the issue. Joey Graham's recent play is actually a good example of how this organization has a tendency to waste development time for its own picks going as far back as T-Mac. I don't know why they seem to give such a small window to their players. I stand by previous statements when I say Bosh was lucky because Kevin O'Neil just played him for large chunks of minutes his rookie year. Given how this season is going, why not just mandate that Bargnani, Ukic, and even Graham get some considerable burn the rest of the way...I almost went an entire post without harping on Calderon but I have to say it...sometimes a smooth flowing, dangerous offense comes down to fractions of seconds. Even if Calderon is now more inclined to run the ball up the court a little quicker, he still hesitates to make the key pass to a cutter who has worked his way into the lane and has a little opening for an easier basket. I see it too often in games now, where once that opportunity is missed, he has to pull the ball back out and set up something that is more difficult than it should have been. He has gotten away with it in some sense with Bosh because at the beginning of the year Bosh seemed to accommodate having to work so hard to get a basket once he got the ball in his hands. But it's added up quickly. The little things matter and Calderon doesn't "get" it as much I thought he would as a starter. Rant over.

Interloper,
I’m with you on this. I realize BC was in a tough position (from last year), with the TJ thing, as well as AB’s sophomore performance. But with O’Neal – who I do like, but not at 20+ million – I see that trade move as appeasing Rap fans (and Bosh), rather than focusing on player development.

Whenever I look around the league, I’m amazed at the talent we had, that is now elsewhere. Some player losses have been beyond our control, but others have not. So do we panic and trade away guys like AB because we’re frustrated. And you’re right about Joey. He’s a classic example of someone who – in true Toronto sports apathy – would normally have moved on by now. And maybe to better things. Why he doesn’t start games is beyond me. I think Moon is a nice guy, but I prefer Joey’s play.

As I’ve said before, I’ll always look at this year as a training (and development) year. Ukic, AB, and Joey need court time. And AB needs to get some shots. Check out that stat. There are many who will trash him – and want whatever we can get for him – but he needs to be encouraged to shoot more. Just as Ukic needs to be encouraged to slash and take it to the rim, while Joey more so.

And as I’ve said many times in past posts, we ain’t going nowhere this year. Time to focus on making next year more palatable – and possibly a nice surprise.

Weird not covering a Sunday game today...anyways, some really good thoughts here about the team.

First off, the patience things is huge. It takes time to develop talent and you've got to be willing to withstand the lean years. The weird thing is, I don't think anyone was expecting these to be lean years from 2008 to 2010 at least.

Part of me though is slightly happy about this losing simply because it shows that the players through all of this, are still the root of the problem.

That being said, two guys who suddenly shouldn't be going anywhere are Joey Graham and Roko Ukic. Neither may be stars, but both look to be true assets in at least back-up roles for the club for years to come.

And as I mentioned in my OKC recap - it's getting about that time of the season where Colangelo and co. need to decide whether to play for playoffs, or play for development. If the club continues to struggle in January, it may be time to get Bargs back in the starting line-up along with Joey Graham, and cut Jose's minutes down by using more Roko.

Bosh might not be happy with it but some short term pain and a solid draft could go a long way towards a huge rebound year in 2009-10 thus making it that much more palatable for CB4 to stick around.

I almost can't believe we went from talking about this team as a top 4 in the east just a few short months ago, to talking about them potentially being in the lottery!

just goes to show you that putting together a team in this sport is not an easy thing to do. so many variables at play. and for all those cracking down on BC, I still say at least we have a guy at the helm that's willing to try stuff out, and think outside the box a little. it hasn't paid off yet (at all) but nobody can say he isn't trying to win. this is probably killing him more than anyone surrounding the team.

and just as good shooters keep shooting while in a funk, I'm pretty sure BC is going to keep up his antics to try and get himself out of his recent funky choices.

I personally think we're going to rebound this season, probably even make the playoffs just because the sched gets better - hopefully if that does happen, we still get an upgrade at the sf...

BC,
I don't think that Rap fans are being hard on the JO trade. We needed some help for Bosh. JO has been a big help and added some toughness, of which they need a lot more. However, his trade was a clear sacrifice of the future for now. And we are now coming to the "acceptance" that now is not now.

Interloper,
I agree whole-heartedly with giving the developing guys some major burn. And stop jerking Bargs around. Good coaches set players up for success. The Raps have continually moved him out of roles once he gets some success.

Franchise, I think that time of decision to either build for next year or go for it now (???) is nigh, but I don't think sitting all the medicore vets will be much of a set back. The only significant vet that can be sat is JO and we need him to keep some pressure off of Bargs and Bosh. Just sit AP, and Moon. Ukic needs 18 minutes a game, with 30 for Jose. Sometimes, they hit the floor together. Graham gets 30 mins and maybe Kapono because his is smart and a scoring threat.
So, start Jose, Joey, Kapono, Bosh and JO. Give good minutes to Bargs and some to Hump(10-20)when possible. Bosh needs to be capped at 30 for a while. Have to think about Jawai once he become relevent.

Really, the only thing we can do is bench a few of the older wings and spread the minutes for the others a little more evenly. And get younger by trades if possible.

ESPN is reporting:

Something else we touched on a week ago: Chicago showing a willingness to part with guards Larry Hughes and Thabo Sefolosha as well as forward Tyrus Thomas between now and the trading deadline … and an unwillingness to part with second-year center Joakim Noah.

According to NBA front office sources, after some progress from Thomas in the past week, we need to move Drew Gooden to the front of the list of Chicago's available players and push Thomas' status closer to Noah's status.

Toronto could use any of those guys, but I really like Thabo Sefalosha. High intensity on D.

ESPN Reporting:

The Thunder, meanwhile, continue to make forwards Chris Wilcox and Joe Smith and guard Earl Watson available on the trade front. It's believed Oklahoma City is simply looking for expiring contracts and/or future first-round picks in exchange; sources say a deal sending Watson to Toronto for Anthony Parker and Joey Graham is a possibility.

Can someone explain to me how/why the Raps would even consider this move?

In order to add some defensive aggression in practice and on the second unit during games, I would move JG right now for Thabo Sefalosha if Chicago would make that deal.

Next move:

AP for Ricky Davis and Brian Skinner. You're losing in quality of personality but gaining more depth. Not thrilled about this one, but 2nd unit starting to shape up...

Ukic
Sefalosha
Davis
Bargs
Skinner

Hey, everyone I'm looking for a new hobby instead of wasting all my time watching and being interested in this awful team. It is killing me seeing them get ruined every game.... This was supposed to be a good season after all of those years of the "rebuilding" process. Suggestions or ideas anyone for a new hobby that isnt a waste? lol

since boozer says he wants out...

Oneil+Bargs for Boozer+kirilenko

And to get Nash to Canada...

Jose+Kapono for Nash

And for the sake of rounding out the roster for completeness (dont hate me for this one)....

Bosh+Hump for Butler+Jamison

for a grand total of......

nash ukic solomon
sefalosha solomon
butler davis moon
jamison krilenko moon
boozer skinner

lets clean that up a bit...

1st unit:

calderon
sefalosha
butler
jamison
boozer

2nd unit:

ukic
solomon
r.davis / moon
kirilenko / moon
Skinner / Voskhul

OOPS!!!

missed Nash

1st unit:

Nash
Sefalosha
Butler
Jamison
Boozer

wow.

mcclarky
You write way to much, especially because it's a bunch of crap. Stop doing this thing you do, and just be patient and let BC do his thing, this isn't realgm - If you haven't noticed no one cares about your rosters or line ups! We have absolutely no chips to trade with that are valuable.

Fair enough Marquis. I think my manic roster writing is a product of my frustration. It's starting to feel like there is no way out this season and that is extremely disheartening. I had such high hopes for what BC would/could do and it feels like it was all smoke and mirrors to this point. If they start winning again I don't think I'm going to be able to believe it's anything other than a hot streak of shooting that will inevitably die out. Ugh.

Regardless, thanks for the wakeup call Marquis.

Marquis - hilarious

Mcclarky - well taken

Franchise, Howland, VD - Because I am posting now, it means that any second you will post the preview. I dunno how many times i have been the last to post a comment.

Being in Scotland means that I am not able to live, eat and breath Raps ball. But I try. We seem so much more jumpy this season than in seasons past. Every win means so much as every loss means even more.

We beat Indy and NJ when Parker was injured. Now he is on the bench? I agree he might have lost a step, but he can still lose a step or two and be faster the Kapono. He can also hit a 3. Just because we won two games, does this mean that a starter over the last 2.5 years is done?

We lack perimter defence and rebounding. Start Parker and Joey, they are our best perimeter defenders and are no slouches on O. Bring Kapono off the bench, play him against back ups to score easy 3's and not be so exposed. Show Moon the bench, he adds nothing to a wing rotation of Joey/Kapono/Parker.

Finally, I was always a Smitch basher, still am. Don't miss him. Sure we aren't winning as many games, yet; but he is gone because he wore out his welcome and the team has moved on. Any 'i told you so' is irrelevant, just as who the Raps could have drafted will be irrelevant. Let's move on with what we got and build around our young pieces: Bosh, Bargnani, Graham, Roko and even Jose.

Sorry folks - preview is going to be a bit late here this morning due to travel and weather back East where I'm currently staying for Christmas...however it will contain a gem of a photoshop job by D...

Here’s something to brighten up your holiday season… Sam Smith of Bulls.com telling tales of how the Raptors, specifically Bryan Colangelo are in an absolute panic! Yes the same Bryan Colangelo that proclaimed as recently as a few weeks ago that he still loved this team he constructed. Here’s the link: http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_081222.html

And here’s some especially interesting tid bits from the article I wanted to comment on:

1) After explaining how teams don’t generally do deals at this juncture of the season unless they are in an absolute panic, Sam writes the following:

"Though there is one truly desperate team these days and it will be interesting to watch what the Toronto Raptors do."

Heart-warming…You want to know why BC is desperate at this point? Well, let’s see, he put together a flawed roster, the only pieces that have any trade value are Bosh and Calderone (neither of which are players he had anything to do with brining in). Next, he fires Sam Mitchell when the team was 8-9, blaming him for not maximizing the over-abundance of talent (sarcasm) of his roster and the team proceeds to nose dive (2-8 post Mitchell).

2) "After firing coach Sam Mitchell at 8-9, they have lost eight of 10 and appear to have about given up."
Its obvious to anyone watching, this team has laid down…

3) Feschuck also pointed this out last week:

"And now GM Bryan Colangelo is feeling the heat with one local writer noting Colangelo's teams have failed to advance past the first round in 12 of 14 seasons."

Scary when you really think about it… Confounding how he got his golden boy status.

4) This is where it starts to get scary:

""Bryan's in a panic," said one general manager. Toronto is said to be talking about various options, some of which could include the Bulls. One GM said he's first been trying to unload the expiring deal of Anthony Parker, though that won't yield much. Another GM says he's now hearing the Raptors want to move Jermaine O'Neal. Good luck, I say, with O'Neal making $23 million next season. But here's the thinking: O'Neal for Stephon Marbury, which is perhaps one reason the Knicks continue to hold onto Marbury."

That’s right, BC has realized he’s blown this and his Teflon Don rep is on the line so we’re into full panic mode… STEPHON MARBURY!! Even one of his fellow GM’s is saying he’s panicking. It goes on to mention the unmentionable, EDDIE CURRY.I feel sick.

5) This one’s obvious and no surprise to me…

"But Colangelo is said to be holding off including Bargnani to anyone for the way it would look to have whiffed on the first overall pick in the draft that produced Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge."

As Doug Smith would say: DING!DING!DING!

A question for anyone who cares to reply.
"Are we done for the season?" Is there any way we recover?"

OneandDone:
I am not sure we are done for the year, believe this team is underachieving, for example, do you really think the knicks or the nets have a better roster?
That said not always team performances are a direct reflection of their potential. Moreover, when losses mount you start playing with less confidence and you loose any inertia.
To go back to your question, are they done? if you think they are better than what they are showing, the answer is a definite.... maybe, as it would just take a big win to turn the confidence around, the point is to get them going.

MAS,
I hope you are wrong, I can see why BC would be worried, but desperate? So desperate to give JO for a guy who could get out of the free agent market for little money?
Do you honestly think his butt is on the line?

Do you have a way to verify whether that source does not have any other interest to circulate that rumor?

Renato,

Don’t "hope I’m wrong" I didn’t write this article. Go ahead and read the article for yourself, and take what value from it you see fit. Would I believe everything that’s said in the piece, probably not (especially the EDDIE CURRY references… please god). But one thing that has to be taken seriously is the overall sentiment that the Raptors right now are a mess. For that BC has to shoulder the blame here. I’m not going to confirm the sources for you because I didn’t write the article. I pasted the link so have a look.

The one quote however that did stand out for me was the one where a fellow GM stated that "Brian’s in a panic". If that doesn’t speak loud and clear to you as a Raptors’ fan, that one of BC’s peers is characterizing BC’s current state as "a panic" I don’t know what to say.

You know what I’m with all you Smitch haters now… I’m glad Smitch was fired! Now even the most ignorant basketball fans can see that the problems are much deeper and we can get on with fixing this mess!

We've lost Skeets. All is lost. Its time to panic. The legendary J.E. Skeets has placed us last in his latest BDL power rankings. Behind such powerhouses as the SuperSonics and Timberwolves. Time to press the red button people!

But seriously, Colangelo doesn't have to panic, he just needs to be very careful with how he addresses our infinite suckitude.

And thank god the game is on TSN 2 tonight. If I wanted to see something that ugly, I'd look in the mirror! This might be the best season ever to not be able to watch. Thanks, Rogers?

Should we be in a rush to unload O'Neal? For Marbury?
Might just be me but O'Neal is one of the few positives so far this year.

I wouldn't read too much into the negative press. Who was it that said any coverage is good coverage?... Food for thought...

The way I see it:

1. The players on this team had a rebellion against Sam which lead to the final straw being pulled in his firing;

2. At this point many key players were burned out;

3. Like any coup d'etat there is going to be chaos and a period of diharmonic transition - especially when we are in a proffessional competetive league.

4. Let the media try to 'speculate' about crappy deals we might make. Its not like we don't do the exact opposite.

5. It's not surprising that we feel a certain sense of 'undervaluing' by media folk about our players. But when you go on a losing tear - well you will draw that kind of nonsense.

6. Either congratulate and invite over for dinner those idiots who think JO is worth trading for Eddy Curry, Marbury etc - or take names. We will be back.

8. The vultures lurk; but at the end of the day - they too must return home and roost.

9. Would it be stupid to thinkk that bringing in Maggette at SF to be paired with JG would be as bad as KG thinks? Perhaps we need that 'type of player';

Can't wait for the photoshop that D is fixin...

BC had to know that the JO deal was risky, but he probably never imagined the risk was in the team being worse WITH JO ON THE FLOOR. He was probably crossing his fingers that he didn't re-injure the knee. This one must be stinging right now.

Let's hope sanity prevails and Marbles stays a Knick for the time being.

Could you help me. Never help a child with a task at which he feels he can succeed.
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Best regards ;), Roman.

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Waiting for a reply ;-), Thorpe.