Tip-In, Toronto Raptors’ Post-Game: Old Habits Die Hard

Curious to see O'Neal's next game.How will he react to last night's game. His offence hurt us last night. Then again Rasheed a solid big man defender.We should of went to Bosh more often.

Bargnani seems to be holding back offensively, eventually his shot attempts need to increase. Sam pulled him quickly after a missed assignment in the early 4th quarter.

Disappointed with any loss but as stated it's only the 4th game of the season. Looking at the positives. looks like we have an all star PF and an all star PG. Here's to their health.

I thought Barg's defense was especially good during the game, especially after both Bosh and O'Neal didn't take well to the fact that calls were definitely not going their way. He cut off his man and tried to attack the pick and roll fairly aggressively.

Perhaps just as important was Will Soloman's shot selection in the 3rd/4th (can't believe he took those shots when Bosh was hot) and Moon's continued struggles to box out his man and finish strong. I do think Soloman's defense is much better than Ukic's but, I dunno... I always have a feeling of watching Dixon run the point when he's on the court. Just... Gah... The Raptors always look ugly against Detroit.

I have always been a Moon supported but after last night I have to change my mind. He was brutal last night and like Franchise said that play on the break (passed it back to Jose) just summed it up! He has to be some sort of threat on offense attacking the hoop or he is useless at that end. I know he is shooting well from the field %age wise but the stats can lie and we could get that out of Kap. On the defensive end he gambled way too much and really got lit up. I'm not even going to comment on his lack of hands (ally-oop miss from Jose and rebounds slipping out of his hands)!!! Time to give Joey a longer look and/or Kap more minutes.

Rasheed Wallace killed us last night with his mid game defence on Bosh and O'Neal. That guy has a real knack for getting in your head and screwing with you. If you notice most of Bosh's easy points came when Amir Johnson was guarding him. Although Bosh got the best of Rasheed a couple of times in the 4th, most of the time he settled for jumper with Wallace on him.
Also, Franchise I think you downplay the Prince/Hamilton effect. You can take away Billups and still have the Pistons play the same or better than before. But if one was to ever take away Prince or Hamilton, the Pistons are a middle of the pack team. This is why there's no surprise they torched us.
I actually thought JO was quite aggressive but for some reason his shots just aren't falling. Since it's only game 4 I'll attribute it to RUST.

I don't understand why Will Solomon was on the court for so long (why not Roko). His shot selections killed our rally. As for Joey, I think his problem was that he's so afraid to make a mistake and gets pulled that he actually made them. Finally, I agree that Bargs needs to stay out there longer and take more shots.

Franchise,
Great recap. I really enjoy reading your posts. However, I disagree with the JO criticism. Although he played a lousy game offensively, I think that the Raptors need this guy to get back to his old offensive form in order to compete come April. The only way to do that is to give JO his touches early in the season. If he is unable to return to form by December, then that means that it is probably more than rust and the Raps need to look for other offensive threats. But I think that it is worth a shot because the potential rewards are tremendous. Bargnani was given his touches last year and crapped the bed. I agree he needs to get more involved, but let JO find is offense first, since he has proven over the years to be very consistent.

I was at the game and I was very disappointed in Moon and JO. I know it's only 1 game however it was a very relevant game. We desperately need either a defensive presence at SF position or a better JO to show up. Detroit pulled Rasheed out of the paint thus forcing JO to play defense at the perimeter and stopping him being a force inside.
On paper we have a lot to improve: JO can only become better, AB has shown flashes of a complete game, the bench should improve as well. If nothing of the above becomes a reality then we are screwed. I'm really looking forward to see our reaction with teh Hawks, who are playing great b-ball right now.

Sam should have went to Bosh more in the 4th as he was matched up with Tayshaun. Moons lack of agressiveness was fustrating. Tayshaun in my opinion can be an All Star and remember Moon is a second round pick.

It is only the fourth game of the year if JO is still doing this in Jan then they have issues....plus he was playing alright until he picked up his 2nd foul in the first quater on a pretty weak offensive foul call...after that in crapped the bed...

Game 4,

So I think we all have to chill. Did people reasonably expect this team to be an elite team? I didn't. Also, regarding the Jamario Moon situation, I'm fairly sure he is signed to a tiny contract relative to other Raptors, so how much can you really expect from a D-League lifer? The blame here has to fall on J.O., but if it's rust, then what can be done except to wait it out until he gets his legs under him.

One thing I will say, I wish Mitchell ran more other-than-Bosh plays for Kapono and other offensive players

Jermaine working through his offensive struggles is a necessary evil for this team. He had a long lay-off and still doesn't have his timing or footwork down in any aspect of his game (rebounding, D and O...and offense is the slowest to come back). JO can be a legitimate threat down low as he gets more assertive and quicker with his moves (which I see improving game to game and didn't expect to see until 15 to 20 games in so I am optomistic about his progress). His shot selection definitely needs to get better but hopefully it will improve as he gets more comfortable.

On a side note: The one thing that stuck out to me yesterday was Sam's quick hook of Barg's in the fourth after his defensive lapse lead to an easy Pistons basket. I'm generally a Mitchell supporter but I don't think showing up Barg's at that point in time was necessary and could be counter productive in Andrea's development. He is obviously improving in the areas Sam is asking him to focus on and JO was giving it to Bargs so he knew he screwed up. Why not let him play through the next offensive set while he was on fire? I'm curious to see how Andrea reacts in the next few games.

3 days of rust and not knowing what line-up they were facing seemed to soften up the Raps and doomed them from the on-set. I would hope to see a little more fire and focus the next game.

OK franchise...I think you are a little hard on the Raps for their 1st loss. If this was against a mediocre team then I would agree with your over critical assessment but this is the Pistons a team with a core that has been together over 7 years. So lets give the Raps some slack on this one. I really enjoyed the game and I agree with Sam that it was miss shots and opportunities that cost the Raps the game. Kapono had a very bad shooting night, so did Jermaine O'Neal that is not going to happen every night. Tayshaun had one of those nights where everything was falling, that does not happen every night, so this was a pretty good test for the Raps and they came up short against a team that many pick to represent the East in the 09 Finals. So I will give the Raps a break on this game....Props to my man Bosh he really looks like a MVP candidate and I am looking forward to hearing the chants at ACC later on in the season....Go Raps...Lets payback Atlanta for our 1st loss.....Raps4Life

Flying J - No I agree, Toronto really needs JO's offense as the season goes on, but when you don't have it going, get the ball to the guy who DOES. Jose was just unstoppable in the game's final parts. I was sitting there in amazement at his shot especially. I mean, is this guy just an amazing example of improvement in mid-career or what?

I didn't get a chance to watch the whole game. Checking the box, bargs had nice stats, but was -15.

Normally i'm not a huge plus minur guy, but when your -15, and more than double the next worst person, it sticks out.

Any observations as to why we were so bad with him out there?

I think (hope) O’Neil will gradually become more efficient offensively as the team’s chemistry builds. However, his defence has been solid. He does need to pick it up on the boards though…

As for Jamario Moon… Turonian, Franchise totally agree. He’s a complete and utter ninny. That play you described, where he leaked out on a turnover, with only one Piston left to defend and he passed it out to Calderone who was further away from the basket and in a WORSE position to score, was pathetic. I remember being soooo frustrated at this. This guy is just terrified of contact or even the possibility of contact. He refuses to take the ball into the defence at any time… I think its time for Sam to give Joey Graham an opportunity…

However, we lost this game in the 3 minute stretch when Prince was playing PF and guarding Bosh. They went to Bosh on the first position, in the post, and Bosh took it to Prince, who can’t handle CB4 down there. Then for the next four positions, they went everywhere else but back to Bosh who not only had the mismatch but the hot hand at the time. Inexcusable.

Oh and as for Bargs getting the quick hook in the 4th. Here's my opinion why:

He was guarding Kwame Brown. Brown get’s the ball above the three point line. Bargs rushes out to him like he was guarding Kapono or something, gets right up in his grill allowing Brown to drive right by him. Then when O’Neil moved to cover for him, he just stood in the middle of the paint looking around as the ball was passed to the player O’Neil was covering, who laid it in. I know it was only one play, but it was really bad and at a crucial time when the Raps were making a run. He may have been out of position on other plays as well. He did play well offensively though.

There was one play with JO last night that stood out to me. He got the ball low in the post with his back to the defender. He was in deep enough that if he spun baseline and went to the hoop, he would have likely got a swat across the arm and picked up the foul (it's not like it was Howard down there to block the shot). Instead, he spun the other way and took a close-in fadeaway jumper that clanged. People seem to believe he'll get his jumper back with playing time, but I guess we'll see. Pistons are a good team, and I don't mind the fact they're doing good things with a full backup squad on. Grange pointed out last year with Boston that backups on a team with good, disciplined veterans often seem to be better than their talent suggests because they play their roles, and stay within the system. Still, though the Pistons always look good against us, I think a team with really solid perimeter defense can beat them. That's just not us.

Sorry I haven't had the chance to read all the comments yet, but minor tweaks may have allowed us to steal this one but at the end of the day, pistons are just the better team. Their bench usually owns us much worse and I thought it was a great effort.

Hey truronian, you're so right Moon's hands are bad this year. I would rather take Peterson right now because he at least made an effort to get to the hole. I tired of seeing players that are gifted atheltically (ie. Moon and Graham) and they don't use their God given talents. Raptors desperately need a proven/reliable scorer at the 3 spot that can give at least 15-17ppg. I would consider picking up Stephen Jackson. What the hell is the Pistons Cap anyways? ('Sheed, Rip, Prince, Iverson)

Have to agree w raptoronto and other - the quick hook on bargs was ridiculous, he was shooting nicely. Even the Kapono three towards the end that got blocked, should have been shot by bargs, walter herman shut kap down early, I don't know why he played at all after that. This would have been a good game to try the "3 big" line up imo.

Also, I'm convinced moon is playing hurt...

Caino - Bargs is a big discussion piece right now. I was seated in the end zone section last night so in the second half, paid particular attention to him, especially on D. His rotations are much better, especially trapping high, however after the inital stop, he often loses his man, especially on switches where he's not guarding a "small." Therefore for Mitchell right now, I have a feeling that it's a bit of "pick your poison" with him and JO; put Bargs out and you get the scoring but not much defense and put JO out and you're getting the opposite.

"This team needs to be antagonistic from start to finish in terms of attacking the basket" SO THAT THEY GO TO THE FT LINE OFTEN, SO THE STARTERS GET AN IN-GAME REST OFTEN!

A little off topic, and I'm not trying to dump on Bargs as he has shown glimmers of improvement, but this post from Grange was too good. I hope this puts a final nail in the coffin of that "Bargs should play small forward" foolishness.

" A moment later Bargnani showed why those post skills are so vital: isolated on Tayshaun Prince a big three and the kind of guy Bargnani would have to cover if there was every any serious consideration given to him being anything other than a post. Prince literally dribbled a circle around him for the dunk."

Franchise - it looked early on that the raps were attacking but either getting stopped or getting an egregious amount of no-calls. What was the perception at the game? Devlin and Leo were not calling out the refs, but it sure seemed like JO had a case for the headband incident at the least.

Sheed is a master at getting under someone's skin and throwing their game off. For years he's been doing it to Bosh. This year he was matched up on O'neal, so bosh played well and O'neal crapped the bed. All those fouls and Techs didn;t randomly come to be. You would hope O'neal would be mature enough to avoid fallin ginto sheed's trap but because of their history (JO backed up Sheed early in his career in portland) I bet sheed made him feel he had to prove something and being unnecessarily aggressive on O.

Also why the hell was Bargs repeatedly guarding prince lat night? Whatever switch got us in that situation, needs to be rectified. Pistons milked that for 10 points.

Bargs and Kapono need to be used more on offense. Having them out there but not using them, by running plays for them etc, is an utter waste.

I usually don’t mind Leo but I found it particularly difficult to listen to him last night. Really? Was Michael Curry a coach while in Toronto? Just ‘cause the guy can’t shut his yap, doesn’t make him a good coach. In fact, I remember a bit of a rebellion against him by the players as they suspected he was a mole for O’Neal. Do players tuning him out make him a good coach? His team will do well despite of him, not because of him. And someone tell the guy that he needs to dress like a basketball coach, not like he’s teaching a night class at Devry. Did he have elbow pads on his jacket last night???

Funny how we traded JO for TJ and neither seems to be able to finish around the rim.

Do players read the scouting reports? Are they translated into Italian? Why do you leave your feet on a pump fake on Prince or Hamilton?

I think the title of this post is bang on, old habits is what killed us. Specifically, terrible rotations by Mitchell. Why would you take Bosh out for a rest with 8 minutes to go and us finally within a point when a big reason for our comeback was Bosh. Was he tugging at his shorts? Was he gasping? He seemed pretty good to me. Also, Why do you wait so long to bring Calderon back in when we have no offence without him? Rest him against Charlotte and Atlanta, not Detroit.

Another habit from last year is not recognizing and exploiting matchups. As MAS mentioned, Bosh was being guarded by Prince. Why was the ball not going to Bosh EVERY TIME? We had a foul each on Johnson and Wallace within the first two minutes. If I was running the sidelines, I would insist on going to the basket on every possession to get that second foul call on one of their bigs early on.

I’ve mentioned this before and now I see a little more support. Moon was more bad than good last night. Did he get the quick hook? Did he get a slow hook? Graham makes a mistake (and he did!) and he is out. Graham is our only three who has consistently cut to the basket this season. Not sure what happened here, did Graham steel a groupie that Sam had his eye on? Either way, start the player that can help us most, Graham!

Good recap. And I agree with the Cauldron / Bosh perspective. Even though Solomon played decent for his 1st (real) game, I was anxious when Jose was not on the floor. Bosh is important to our team, but I find too much offense is focused on him. With Bargs having his shooting game on, but playing only 21 minutes, I had to wonder why – as you did. And maybe his +/- wasn’t that great, but what does one expect when you’re playing with Slip-Finger Joey and all.

And if it’s about fouls, then just let him foul out. It’s like someone always leaving a glass of juice not quite empty, in case they get thirsty again. Invariably, that last bit of juice ends up being thrown out – never quite enjoyed.

As for Detroit not being a true test for the Celtics, I have to believe they’ll surprise you on that one. If AI gels with this team, I can see them finishing 1st. Their shots just seemed to fall – so smoothly – even when they looked forced. They’re a good team, and it’ll be interesting to see us match up, when we meet them again in mid-January.

Anyone else heard a rumor abt Raptors and Warriors doing business: Marcus Williams, Al Harrington, Marco Belinelli For Jason Kapono, Kris Humphries, Joey Graham and a future 2nd pick? I don’t see the Raps making this move so early in the season after a 3-1 start

Few points:

1) Hadn't heard rumours but interestingly a) I threw a similar trade idea to Howland last week only substituting Bargs into the equation and b) just plugged the deal in the ESPN trade checker and it works financially. Williams is wasting away in G State although it's not clear whether this is a politcal decision or he's simply being beat by other players. However as I was heckling last Friday night, how can he beat out AJ Price at UConn and not beat out Demarcus Nelson or CJ Watson, two COMBO guards in college?

Next up, last night's reffing. It was bad, but not horrendous and aside from a few eggregious decisions by the zebras, I felt that it was more a case of Toronto not forcing the whistles into the refs' mouths. Even Bosh, while his footwork in the post is just phenomenal now, last night he settled for too much up and under and spin type moves rather than consistently going hard to the hoop. You need to give Sheed some props here though as he always seems to get the better of Bosh in their match-ups.

Finally, MAS, saw that play with Prince circling around. That was yet another case of good D initially and then terrible right after.

Even worse? Moon getting burned by Prince on the EXACT same play with a few minutes left in the game. That was the nail in the game coffin and left me shaking my head...

Member29, if that rumour is true, I'd be thrilled. 7 RPG!!! + 47% 3s!!! Hmm. Would he fit in with JO, CB, AP & JC?

More Joey less Moon

The main reason why Bosh didn't get that many touches after he got hot was because Solomon was distributing the ball. Then, Bosh decided to start shooting from the outside, and well, that's when you lose all your offense. The comforting sign is that for about 4 plays in a row, the Raptors drove to the basket and got fouled for 3 point plays, which is how they managed to stage their comeback. Hopefully, someone will have picked up on that and emphasize it to the team for the next few games.

A lot of great comments about last nights game. Barg's is trying but let's face it, he's not a center and he'd have trouble guarding a statue, never mind Prince. A lot of you are commenting on Bosh & Calderon carrying the offense and that's the one of the biggest problems. Bosh is a war horse but if Mitchell thinks he can run isolations for Bosh all year long and Bosh isn't going to wear down, he's dreaming. Good ball movement will lead to easier baskets for everybody, especially Bosh & O'Neal. Of course Calderon is scoring, he has the ball all the time. There's no ball or player movement so how the heck are Kopono and Parker going to free to shoot. Detroit had many fine sequences of passing the ball around the horn and getting good open shots. If only the Raptors were doing the same thing. One last thing, I sure would like to see more passing between Bosh & O'Neal. No reason that some high/low action or post and cut plays wouldn't be effective, and Bosh wouldn't have to take such a physical beating every night.

last year, when TO had a shitty game, they'd get blown out by 20 (against the Bucks for instance). This game against the Pistons was awful, nothing worked except CB and JC. But the deficit was 7, and they had a *chance* to pull it out.

We've talked about this before, and many people say losing has no benefits. Well, this game was useful, I think; give the Raps' heads a shake, and make them realize they can't walk through the schedule to get their wins.

I still don't get Sam's use of his bench. Thought Joey and Humps got relegated pretty quick, and Moon gets all the love...

Franchise is being too hard on the Raptors. They were close in this game with a bunch of starters sucking. Last year, if 60% of the starting core gave you nothing, it would be lights-out to the tune of more than seven points, even against a team inferior to the (awesome) Pistons.

I think this is an excellent team which works hard, but is still an SF away from real elite status. Bargs has value right? lets get rid of that guy and bring somebody in to get us over the hump.

Wow - can't believe the hoopla this first loss has created.
Pistons came up big, made clutch shots. Prince and Hamilton killed us, they are quite the combination, and quite the team.
We pulled out three close games and lost the fourth to a worthy opponent.
Hawks are playing great, already with impressive victories. The knives'll come out if we go on our first losing streak.

How is Stuckey a Mini 50 cent? lol He's like 6'5!

I'm happy with the team after 4 games.

Need to be more aggressive, and they'll be fine.

Wallace always kills us, as he did several times last night. I think that will change this year finally.

O'Neal might've had a shitty game, but he'll bounce back.

Not very serious analysis there, just my early season optimism, I'll start criticizing Mitchell next month.

Member29, please tell me where you heard that deal!! We get harrington and keep Bargs... I do that in a heartbeat. Waive Solomon and pick up a cheap big and we're good. Luxury tax be dammed!

Remember the Raps still hold a $4.5 mill exemption. Don`t expect them to pick up the Dice Man, though it`s back-up if one of our present experiments fail.

I decided to watch Moon throughout that game and couldn't believe how many bad decisions he made. He cost the team a number of rebounds and got torched by everyone he was guarding (even when they switched, he was getting beat). The worst part is, he's never the best shooter on the floor and he's not driving to the rim. I just don't understand what he's in there for. At least guys like O'Neal are playing their game & doing what the team needs them to do. The shots will fall for JO. Will anything ever improve for Moon? I just don't see it. He seems to be just another athletic freak with no b-ball IQ. We seem to love those guys in TO.

Oh, and Jason Kapono is the worst dribbler I've ever seen. Yes, it's worse than when the ball would explode out of Bonner's hands when he dribbled into the paint.

Bonus note for the stat lovers - Moon is never the best SCORER on the floor. I'm sure someone will be tempted to tout that glowing shooting percentage again, as if we'd like to see Moon take more Oakley sized jumpers.