Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post Game: Questions and More Questions

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT

Can Foye reclaim some of that 'Nova upside this season in Minny?

For some teams, the preseason is status quo.

You know what you’ve got in terms of your core group, so you’re really just giving your rookies and any few new additions a chance to show and prove. Perhaps coaches introduce a few new ideas or plays, but for most clubs, things stay fairly similar to previous preseasons.

So here’s a question; is it just me or does this Raptors’ team seem to have more question marks around it than any other version of the club in years?

Even last year with the main additions of Jason Kapono, and Carlos Delfino (Moon didn’t come on till after preseason) it felt like essentially the same group, and while you could argue that the chemistry wasn’t as good as the previous year, the team meshed from the get-go basically.

But this year may prove to be a longer adjustment period.

Watching last night’s loss to the Timberwolves (inexcusable really but we’ll get to that in a minute) just reinforced this for me even more. I’ve got about 10 questions now and I doubt that any of these will be resolved in last few preseason games.

So to recap this game, let’s go through a few key ones that all seem to string together.

1) Who was number 14 last night and what did he do with Joey Graham?

Seriously here. I’ve seen a lot of good and bad Joey but that was the BEST Joey I’ve ever seen. This isn’t even an exaggeration. He looked light on his feet, was extremely active, was aggressive on offense, and was perhaps Toronto’s best man-to-man defender on the evening. I mean, he forced offensive fouls on his man on two straight possessions!

Now that’s the good.

The realistic take is that he’s still not a great ball handler (got picked a few times) and his best defensive work was done on another player who’s in between a 3 and a 4 in the league, Craig Smith.

But we’ll take what we can get here and for once it was just nice to see Joey play well. In fact I commented to Howland last week that I was actually anxious to see Graham back from injury. As up and down as he can be, my argument was that Joey was really the only multi-dimensional player in the bench mix. We’ve touched on this before but Kapono, Adams, even Bargs, these guys are pretty much one way or another, O or D. Good Joey, can do a bit of everything.

So my real question then is, what does Mitchell do with Graham? Last night he looked to be way ahead of Adams on the depth chart, Adams failed to play a minute, and even ahead of Moon. Would Joey be a better fit at the 3 than Jamario to start games?

At the outset I’d say the answer was yes. However considering how bad the second unit looked again yesterday evening, maybe the team needs Joey to be a catalyst off the bench.

And that brings us to question two…

2) What is going on with the second unit?

Yep…the second unit right now for the most part looks like a D League group. Disorganized on offence, non-existent on defence…if not for the return of the starters in the third quarter this one would have been over before half.

However after my initial rage at the lackadaisical play, I started to think towards the regular season and realized that what we’re seeing now is an exception. Barring foul trouble, I can’t see a situation where at least one of Bosh or O’Neal is not on the court at all times with likely Bargnani, Kapono and a back-up point guard and wing. I also expect Jose to play a lot of minutes with the second unit so really, I’m not sure we should get too upset about things at this point.

For instance besides his rebounding, Moon looked absolutely useless last night. But you’ve gotta wonder if that’s his fault, or more of the fault of the point guard he’s playing with. Players like he and Kapono need to be surrounded by other types of complimentary players to be effective and right now there’s nothing "complimentary" about this bench group.

In fact, Joey was flying in the starting five but his play also made me wonder if you couldn’t put Hassan Adams at the 3 along with Jose and that starting core and he’d look ok.

As I remarked yesterday, we saw a similar situation last year when Jose was moved into the starting point guard spot and the bench struggled. This year the hope I’m guessing is that Sam doesn’t have to play Solomon or Roko for 25 minutes a game, so that the majority of the time it’s Jose and some combination of Bosh, O’Neal, Parker, Moon, Andrea, Graham and Hump.

However once again, there’s a follow-up question from this thought…

3) If Bosh is not on the floor, regardless of who else is, can this team score enough?

Let’s be blunt here; JO has hardly looked like a 20 point a night threat so far. His offense has been rusty and while he’s never been a lights out shooter in terms of field-goal percentage, he’s hitting less than 37 per cent so far this preseason. So while we may not see a second unit akin to last night’s if JO is out there instead of Hump, is this team still going to struggle offensively?

That’s why Bargnani is so important. His 22 points last night may have only come with four rebounds but he got to the line seven times and is increasingly looking to mix up his game on the attack. Right now I’d say it’s essential that Bargnani accompanies JO at all times as sort of an offense/defense pairing and hopefully Jose will be with them a good deal as well.

And finally…

4) Where does that leave Jason Kapono?

So far this preseason, I think that the two players who look the best are Bosh and Kapono. I’m not sure if it’s the sleek hair-cut, but Kap-One just seems lighter on his feet. He’s looked much more comfortable handling the ball and is being much more aggressive offensively, looking to find seems in the defense and not simply settling for outside shots.

The problem is, his abilities are basically being wasted in the second unit. I thought Solomon did an ok job last night running the show, but he’s still got a ways to go in terms of helping his team-mates get easier looks. In fact right now it seems that outside of Jose, the player that maybe Kapono has the best chemistry with is Andrea. The two often looked for each other in last night’s loss and did a good job screening for each other. I really liked this idea as it forced Minnesota’s defenders to pick and choose which ones to guard up close as both can fill it up from deep.

Up next for the Raptors is a game in LA against the Clippers.

I doubt we’ll see all of these previous questions resolved but it wouldn’t surprise me to see Joey back in the starting line-up. At some point he needs to show some consistency and perhaps Toronto feels that if they can get it from him in the starting five, then that’s where he’ll be.

One thing’s for certain, the Dinos can’t keep starting out games with the such poor execution and defensive pressure. As much as I’ve criticized the Raptors’ second unit this morning, the starters didn’t really turn things on until the third quarter. This was especially true on the defensive side as like last year, we saw some of the most abysmal 3-point defence against the Wolves. On numerous occasions players like Jose Calderon and Anthony Parker were either doubling the wrong men or not playing up close on Minny’s gunners.

Part of this of course is attention to detail but part of it is also having a better understanding of where your team-mates are on the court with you.

Right now I’m not sure Toronto is close to having things like this figured out and from last night’s game, I wonder if it won’t be a while into the season before they do.

FRANCHISE

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Comments

You guys remember how shite AP looked in the preseason 2 years ago? Fred Jones was light years ahead of him and people questions whether AP even belonged in the NBA. As soon as the real season started, AP turned it up a notch and Fred Jones was an afterthought.

That's what I'm expecting with JO. He's just shedding some of the rust and trying to stay healthy. Once the regular season starts, we'll see him turn it up a notch.

by SonicSuper on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Someone needs to tell Solomon to stop picking up his dribble before he's ready to pass it. There were moments in last game where he would pick up his dribble, and Minny would double him. So where's he going to pass to now?
I agree with you guys though. I don't think Sam will EVER put the entire 2nd unit in a real game together. You'll always see either one or two of the starters in with them.
Lastly, if Joey plays well the first couple of months, expect BC to trade him and one other warm body for a backup point guard.

by OneandDone on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

OneandDone said it, Solomon was infuriating. He repeatedly picked up his dribble near the top of the circle without having any clear idea of what he was going to do. Thank goodness Bargs bailed him out on most occasions. Roko looked better. In fact, he looks like Jose a few years ago. If they can get his shooting percentage up, I think he'll be solid. Of course, what I've read from his Euroleague experience suggests his shot has always been a problem so who knows if he can improve it enough.

I share Franchise's concerns about JO. Here's hoping he's just a vet biding his time until the games matter.

Finally, and lord knows I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but Bargs looks good. He's got some (rudimentary) low post game. If he finishes a bit better around the basket he becomes a force. With some low-post ability and his mid-range game improving I'm cautiously optimistic he can become an offensive force. He has also looked more willing to mix it up, even if his rebounding numbers are still mediocre. Of course, I didn't see the Philly game.

by Sam on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

What's the latest on Jawai? Is he going to be able to play this year?

by FlyingJ on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

isn't the Clippers game in Edmonton?

by utes on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Great write-up as usual franchise. You have highlighted some great points, however I am not as concerned as you are. I think the bench units we have seen so far in the preseason will never be used in the regular season unless this team is decimated by injuries. You will never see 5 bench players out there at the same time, in fact I doubt we will see much time where both Bosh and O’Neil are on the bench together. Also, I don’t see Calderone playing less than 37 to 39 minutes a game. But, (big BUT) if Jose goes down for any extended period of time this team is in trouble. I see this team having a very tight 9 man rotation with Bargs, Kapono, Solomon and either Joey or Moon off the bench regularly with a dash of Hump. Hey, the starters will just have to log starters minutes…

Totally agree on Joey G! That was the best Joey I have seen since the last 16 games of the 47 win season two years ago. He looked like a completely different player, and most importantly he looked as though he belonged on the court. If he turns this corner - for Joey that means 4 good Joey games to every 1 bad Joey game – we will be all right. I call it the Joey ratio, 4 to 1.

As for JO, I have seen enough positives to turn a blind eye to the negatives. He and Bosh have shown flashes of a connection (the most important element), a willingness to post-up (timing will come) and play interior defence. The defence is the most intriguing, finally we have a guy that can guard an Al Jefferson without requiring a double team which does soooo much for team D. Hell call, me an optimist…

by MAS on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I actually thought the second unit was much improved from the CSKA game. They gave up a string of easy baskets on some cherry picking by minnesota, but moon started covering the leak out man and it didn't happen again.

Oneanddone said it, Solomon looks confused still, but roko was worse, plus out of control a bit. I'm feeling ok about the backup PG situation...

I'm with you on Joey, I think if the stars align and he can just string together some confidence building games, he'll be at least a positive on the floor.

JO unfortunately is showing no signs in my mind, of speeding up or having much hops, but minny payed a lot of attention to him and his fundamentals are great.

Man, I want to see a real game!!

by axl on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

It's rare that a team puts an entire second unit on the floor at once. Even less likely to have an entire second unit be overly effective...very rare. COuld you imagine the Celtics taking the 5 starters off of the floor and replacing them with players 6 thru 10 for any extended period of time. granted, the Raps starters aren't near that of the Celts but this is non-issue as far as worrying about a designated "second shift".. .Its hoops, not hockey. So no need to worry.

by JAS on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Flying J - no release yet on what his status is. He started practicing lightly (free throws) again, but no team practice yet.

utes - The Edmonton game is next week, vs Nuggets. First they have two road games in LA (one vs Clips, other vs winner of Lakers and Barcelona game) on the weekend.

by Dan H on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

gotta say that i was very pleased with joey's play last night... one of his turnovers though in the second quarter wasn't exactly his fault... i mean, sure, he had the ball, dribbled it, and turned it over, but in that scenario, he was kinda forced to take dribble the ball with the clock winding down... why? because will the no frill solomon picked up his dribble (how many freaking times have we seen that already this pre-season?) and once that happened, whatever offensive set the raps were trying to set up crumbled... if will stopped picking up his dribble so much, then there would be better spacing on the floor... i don't even recall mike james doing that so much... UGH

by ted c on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Something I didn't discuss this morning was the shot-blocking on this team now, it could be downright scary. I burst out laughing a few times last night watching the game when Minny tried some weak attempts at lay-ups. Each time they were not only rejected by O'Neal, but Bosh and Moon or Graham were up there too...just a pure wall and great to see.

by Franchise on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Franchise If I am Rap's coach, this represents best balance of talents and abilities for off/def.
Raptors rotations to start the season:
PG Calderon 36min
SG Kapono 24min
SF Graham 24min
PF Bosh 32min
C O'Neal 24min
2nd unit
PG Solomon 12min
SG Parker 24min
SF Moon 24min
PF Humph 16min
C Bargnani 24min
Bench
Ukic
Adams
Jawai/TBA

After the first 7/8 minutes subs can be made to begin to integrate the 2nd unit with the 1st unit to find out who is on for the game and who is off, and keep eveyone fresh.

by Johnn19 on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

MAS, I would even settle for 3 to 1.

I am also not as concerned about JO and his abilities. His mere presence changes the entire outlook of the team. He owned Jefferson or whoever else he covered. His presence gives Bosh the space he needs to create and allows for guys like Joey and company to find a rhythm. He doesn't need to score 20 and 10 or even 15 and 8 for us to be effective. Just imagine when he starts to play consistent minutes and finds that chemistry with Bosh, Bargs, Jose, Kapono, Parker...oh you know where I'm going with this!

by Assistant GM on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

wow, joey has one decent game and now we want him to start?!

by benjibopper on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

word to the wise, DO NOT go check out the box scores from the last couple pacers games. their new center is producing slightly more than ours

by axl on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I don't think we have to worry about Joey taking away from Kapono right now. I think Kapono will fit better as a backup 2 to Parker than as a backup 3 to Moon. The concerning part for me is that while Bargs seems to have made a good improvement, Moon has still been largely status quo.

What's really annoying to me is that Ukic only managed 8 minutes in the contest after the glowing praise that Sam lauded on him. Was he a better alternative to Solomon? Not sure since had a worse assist to turnover ratio than Will did, but I guess what Mitchell wants is to give Will some time to adjust because he believes that he can... at age 30...

I'll reserve judgment on Joey until he has to play against some more formidable opposition than the Timberwolves, though it was the best thing of the night

by Kinnon Yee on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

True enough. Putting Joey in as a starter now is a little premature. It speaks to how much we've wanted him to be better.
I can't help but think that Roko is already a better player than Solomon. Solomon can shoot a bit, but not enough that the other team won't be happy to let him chuck all day long. Ukic may be able to break down dribbles enough to get closer and shoot. how is he from the top of the key? if he can hit that, he doesn't need to hit all his 3's to be effective. Consistency there is enough. He's pretty tall and can get shots off from closer in than Jose or Will.

by EaseMyPain on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Hibbert doesn't concern me. He was not who we were going to pick with that slot anyway. Besides, I don't think that anyone here sees him as a game changer. He was the Pacers pick and chosen higher than many had predicted due to his mediocre season at Georgetown. I can pretty much guarantee (if he stays healthy) that JO has a far greater impact this year than Hibbert does. Remember, we stopped building for the future and started to focus on the present (while still keeping an eye on the future).

by Assistant GM on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

4-1? 3-1?, not that I wouldn't love to see it, but let's try to get 2-2 first.

With that said, I've been thinking for a while that some of Joey's problems may stem from the style the Raptors have played the past 3 years. They were more of a fast paced team, and after studying Joey's game, I'm thinking he's better in a half-court, more structured game. One game does not a season make, so we'll see, but I see him as a better fit at the 3 then Jamario at this point.

I think we're over-reacting to the bench question. You need 8 guys, not 10, and those 8 should get the majority of the minutes unless there's foul trouble. Our 3 bigs should be O'neil, Bosh and Bargs, and our 3 wings should be Parker, Kapono and Graham. That leaves Jose and probably Solomon as the final two. Hump and Jamario only need to see the floor if there's injury or foul trouble. The rest should only see the floor in a blowout.

I know he's a weak defender, but I'd consider starting Kapono. The interior defense is vastly improved this year, so you have a little more margin for error on the perimeter. I think the big advantage will be on offense, as he'll get alot of open shots off double teams. Jose will get him the ball....I don't trust Solomon to.

I also think having AP coming off the bench will help Solomon and AP himself. AP will be playing against inferior players so scoring should be easier, and when Solomon gets into trouble (his picking up of the dribble is giving me Milt Palacio flashbacks), AP can calm things down. Plus, you can slide AP over to the 3 and you don't lose much. Having him come off the bench gives Sam more flexibility.

Here's what my rotation would look like....

Starters
O'neil
Bosh
Graham
Kapono
Calderon

Parker is first off the bench for Graham
Bargnani is second for O'neil
Solomon is third for Calderon
Then you bring back O'neil for Bosh and Graham for Kapono, sliding AP over to the 2. That's a pretty workable rotation as long as everyone's healthy and Andrea and Joey don't pick up 3 fouls in the first 2 minutes that they're on the floor.

Sorry for the long post, it's been a while. :)

by Jeff on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

the bench is pure terribleness.

and we can talk all sorts of nonsense about how they're never going to see the floor like they're seeing it now or how the starting 5 is all that's necessary. (like boston last year)

but for real, the 2nd unit is shiat.

we're going to need a nash like herculean effort from the poor caldy to get where we're looking to go.

bargs didn't impress me. a lot of his points have come off his jumper. especially last night. (though he did have one good drive.)

that's not going to cut it.

last point, moon seems content. complacent, almost. happy to just be. joey, on the other hand, at least is trying to be more. (and has been, for many years.) whether he's ultimately successful or not...

which is better?????

by papa on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

I'm sorry guys, but if Roy Hibbert, the 7"2 center that we traded away to Indiana for J'Oneal has better stats and plays more games than JO, our raptors franchise is going to look like a joke. Not only is Hibbert putting up better stats right now than JO, but with 20 million dollars we could have done a lot more with ourselves. Here's to praying that JO has a better season than RH.
OH yeah, we also wouldn't have back up PG troubles as well, since we would have had TJ Ford.

by BargsBust on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Hold your horses. We're talking about meaningless games with Smitch mixing and matching to see what might, and might not, work at any one time.

It's interesting how people are no pencilling Kapono in as the starting SG when he wasn't even considered for SG role months ago. Once again, there's no way he can come close to guarding the top SGs in the NBA and it just wouldn't make sense to have him start at that position. The job is Parker's to lose. I can see a mix of Solomon/Kapono as reserves depending on the match-up. As there seems to be some chemistry between Barg and Kapono, I can see Kapones playing more shooting guard with Moon/Graham at SF and Solomon at the point though Ukic is slowly/quickly learning the ability to break down opposing defenses so depends on the first PG off the bench.

by Acie on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Top form BBust, Top form.
Hibbert for O'Neal? Who would you prefer? Well, OK. Lets talk twenty games. Same with PG situation?
Question - What do you think about his preseason so far? Heard ya criticizing the 1 rebound game. Understandably so. But how bout the rest of it?

by Tinman on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Just a Saturday morning dream, how much would our team setup get better by a couple of orders of magnitude with "good joey" showing up as out starting three?

we have a say in Italy that says something like: Dreams fade away at sunrise, but what if?

by renato on Oct 18, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Umm...nobody wanted TJ Ford as our backup point guard. Most didn't want him as our starter either. We didn't actually trade Hibbert to the Pacers, that's who THEY elected to pick. There was talk that Hibbert would drop to late first round status just before the draft. The Pacers felt he was worth a shot at 17. Although he is 7-2, he wasn't playing like it in college. So he is posting good numbers in preseason...big deal! How about you write a post about how Bargs has been playing well throughout the preseason and how you see him as this years x factor...oh wait!

by Assistant GM on Oct 18, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions

Morning...or afternoon everyone. No Clippers preview as Howland and I had our annual live fantasy draft last night...which carried over until about 8 hours ago ha ha.

However not sure there's much to preview right now anyways and frankly, I'm just anxious for the real season to begin.

Tonight I'm guessing we'll see more frustrating line-ups that we won't see come October 29th, and I fully expect the Clippers to win this match. They're still trying to figure out all their new pieces too so the starters might get some extra run against Toronto's bench.

What I will be focussing on tonight is how Joey looks obviously, and the back-up point guard situation. I didn't understand why Mitchell only played Roko 8 minutes after gushing about him either, so we'll see what the minutes split is like tonight...

As for Hibbert, I agree with Assistant GM - I don't think even if the JO trade hadn't gone down that BC would have selected him. I think he was leaning towards Hickson and who knows, maybe there was another deal option that the Raptors had in mind. Just didn't sound when I was speaking to BC that they were that keen on keeping the pick.

by Franchise on Oct 18, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions