Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post-Game: Margin of Error

Rasho got alot of boards last night!!!

Frustrating to watch,so close yet so far ...What was clearly evident last night was the lack of muscle,the hustle was there but we needed to show that we need to be taken seriously,how many times were the raps on the floor picking up their lunch....this type of game we would of needed more Rasho and Hump and less Bubba shooting,one stretch 4 shots in a row,with a clear path...scared shitless to get hammered thats what that was...Nice to see Bargs back,but if he isn't going to crash the boards we need Parker to pick it up...great comp with Mo...For once I would like to see a Dino get up from beeing levelled to the floor with some attitude,not Ron Artest but show some intestinal fortitude for once.....we were simply man handled last night.In regards with its tough to be upset with the loss...I'm hoping B.C. was, and shakes things up.Men playing with Boys.We talk about the playoffs,the first round,the secound round....if you want to get to the second round ,welcome to the nba,toughen up.Sam was obnoxious last night post game,I know Sam is Sam,but grow up its part of your job....you know, like leaving the bench on long enough to cost us the game.We have a long way to go,there were some positives,but the Pistons scored at will,and we were looking for options....TJ get back soon.I guess at the end of the day...we dont have a guard who can watch the other east teams guards a la Kidd, and Billups....so what do we do ,play to make to make the playoffs and go home? Just when I thought we can do alright,realty set in...

Are y'all kidding me?? AP vs MoP? Ok yeah, AP has been a disapointment, but even then, I'd take AP over MoP in a heartbeat.

MoP is not only shooting a gawd awful (but note, only his 3rd worse numbers so far)40.2%. But he will continually be hot and cold, and keeps taking untimely shots. As badly as AP plays he doesn't disrupt the offense.

Okay take in point, MoP averages 26 minutes over 31 games and AP 35 mins over 33 games. MoP has taken 147 three point shots converting 35.4% while AP has taken 110 @49.1% It was precisely MoP jacking up crap shots that used to cause me to pull my hair out.

Not only that, but they're both still jacking up balls at the same rate (about .3 shots per minute). And at rates of AP converting 44% vs MoP's 40%, through the year, that's huge!

But the 3point stats alone is enough evidence for me.

It is it just me or do opposing PG's always seem to penetrate way too easy when matched up against Jose one-on-one. I know Toronto's help D (often Bargs) is often late coming over but I feel TJ did much better job at holding opposing PG’s on the perimeter.

JC played 6 min more than Billips but check out the stat sheet. Not much difference there. Game lost by bench getting only 5 points.not the PG position unless u look at Dixon that was a poor outing for Dixon. Yes we need TJ back. He is cleared to play so only TJ can say I am going to play. I suggest all send emails to TJ asking him to come back now if He is pain free as posted by media. Gawd we need Rasho back!!!

Would of been a nice home win, but hats off to the Pistons. As deep as we believe our team to be, we just got beat by a deeper, tougher, more experienced crew. Its really hard not to like the Pistons.A team of leaders. I have never heard any teammate, current or former, say anything negative about Rasheed.
Although I am usually amused by Sam's post game comments and banter with the reporters, he needs to realize that it is part of his job(which he gets paid a pretty penny to do). The occasional outburst might work as motivation(a la Pop in SA) but he is sounding like a broken record.
Am not upset about the lineup at the start of the fourth, the guys just didn't produce. Humphries and Dixon did not appear insync. Sam got the starters back in fast- we made a run to bring it close and then, frankly, we got outplayed by a much better team - many experts say the best team in the NBA(when you think that there is SA and Boston in this league thats quite a statement).
Nice seeing Bargnani put the ball in the hoop - but he was consistantly getting boxed out on the boards. Bosh worked very hard for every rebound he got, last night he coulda used help. I was surprised that Humph got credited for so many because I didn't see him get them. He was invisible. Did Rasho see any time on the floor?

Jay 78 its not just you..I have been saying the same thing. Jose does not have the defensive mentallity that TJ has. He plays the bigger pg soft. Billups drive by him at will last night. You can't rely on help all the time you have to force your man out of the paint. But to be fair to Jose Chauncy is not your normal point guard he is a monster, strong, skilled and experienced. Can't really blame the Raps for this loss the starters did an excellent job, I think Jaun was out of his element with the experience Pistons and was unable to create shots for the bench players. We got out played by a better or probably the best team in the NBA. Forget about this game and lets get refocused for the games ahead. Raps4Life.

My take on AP is that it's something physical. He was going to the rim but trying to drop it in instead of dunking like he did last year, and he's staying with his man but just can't seem to stop him at the rim.

I was happy with their effort though - parker shoots 50% and hump doesn't bobble the ball and they would've had a chance at the end.

Can't figure out moon, he's got those hops but needs a little reckless abandon.

wanted to add - if there was ever a night we needed TJ Ford...

Will second(third, fourth?) that. As someone who thinks Jose runs this team better, it is becoming apparent what TJ can bring to such games. Come back when your ready TJ

Hopefully a lot of the TJ bashing stops once he returns

There is no person on the raptors other than perhaps bargs who takes more critisism than TJ ford.

The raps will always have problems playing bigger guards like Billups, Arenas and Kidd. Jose is a bit soft on the defensive end and TJ just doesn't have the size to compete.

Last year who did anthony parker have to compete with on the wings for scoring opportunities. Garbo wasn't much of a scorer, Joey Graham was always lost, Mo didn't score much and was constantly in and out of the rotation and Juan saw limited minutes.

This year he has to compete against Moon, Kopono and Delfino for touches. He still shoots an amazing percentage and if he had the same opportunities he did last year i'm sure he could put up the same numbers.

Even last year he would get his points in the flow of the offence and wasn't looked at to be a go to scorer, this year we have more scorers and more plays run for bosh so his opportunities are limited. Still he makes the most of them and plays great D.

The raps were going up against a championship contender who happened to be the hottest team in the league. Couple that with the fact that the raps were missing their argubly their second best player and it was obvious the raps weren't going to win.

I don't understand why so many people are getting mad at the raps and critiquing so much when two years ago we were in the lottary. The Pistons beat Boston on their home court....Boston is a better team than us when we're healthy and we're missing our second best player...what did you expect to happen?

Everyone is constantly wanting trades and changes however nobody seems to have the patients to let things develop slowly. Our core is built around Bosh, Bargs, Ford, Calderon...all are young guys in their early to mid 20s....we'll be great eventually but it takes time...you can't always draft a duncan or shaq or lebron sometimes you have to build a team from scratch which takes more time

a very common comment in todays posts are Pistons are experienced. I may sound like a broken record but our most experienced player is not playing! and what He is big and gets rebounds, and scores a little! SM we need Rasho back and soon! Bosh can't get em all. Hump is my favourite raptor but he sits behind Rasho in my line up.

Perfect game commentary by Franchise..not much to add. I liked the effort and the intensity for 3 quarters. I don't know what happened to our bench and our wings.
Jose had the same stat sheet as Billups and I can guarantee you Billups would have abused TJ defensively. As I said before though, it really doesn't matter because people have their biases already in regards to Jose/TJ.
I'm sure BC loves this type of games because they expose sharply a team's strengths and weaknesses. I'm happy about this season so far because it's exactly the opposite of last year's season: we clearly play to prepare for the play-off this year (how many games were play-off intensity this season?) whereas last year we played to win games here and now with no clear purpose in mind.

Now that those who prefer TJ to start are in a bit of "I told you so" mode, it is good to remember that for those of us who prefer JC starting, we prefer JC starting AND TJ backing him up, we would not want Dixon as a backup. So it is not fair to compare this situation (Jose+Dixon) with TJ+Jose and conclude that the Raps are better off with TJ starting, the fair comparison would be either TJ starting+Jose backup vs Jose starting+TJ backup, or TJ+Dixon vs. Jose+Dixon. So please don't take the "see how we miss TJ" reasoning too far, of course we miss him, but we would also miss Jose if we were watching TJ+Dixon at the PG position, and the Raps would likely have the same record or worse.

That said, it is fair to admit that his absence is highlighting that TJ's aggressive offense can sometimes be quite important to this team. I hope he gets healthy and back to the team, some of us prefer Jose starting and others prefer TJ, but I'm sure ALL of us agree that we need BOTH.

As well as Bargs played offensively last night, the rest of his game wasn't really there. He left Sheed open several times for those back breaking threes. Worse was he total lack of effort in the rebound department. I watched him during every rebound situation and not once did he even contest. Someone needs light a fire under him and get him to a least try to rebound.

It was good to see him finally get back on track offensively though.

Mission accomplished! They didn’t embarrass themselves.
That the Raps kept the game close with the American tv exposure was my only concern.
Why so much of you bray for American media attention is confounding to me since Raps are clearly a work in progress and don’t need the additional critical scrutiny. We can now get back to quietly beating up light-weights (plenty of those in the East) until we are ready for primetime.

What I’ve learnt?
It is a lot harder to build a true contender than it is to build a half decent team and I was fooled by the quantum accomplishments of last year. Don’t think the Bull’s gm is not perplexed by how fate has unfolded for his team? Colangelo has done a fine job so far but apparently that was the easy part. Should be interesting to see his next move.

What I’ve learnt?
It is a lot harder to build a true contender than it is to build a half decent team and I was fooled by the quantum accomplishments of last year. Don’t think the Bull’s gm is not perplexed by how fate has unfolded for his team? Colangelo has done a fine job so far but apparently that was the easy part. Should be interesting to see his next move.

Great comment old school. I think that it's something that a lot of Raps fans have fallen victim to, myself included. Hopefully we're all realizing that this team is good, not great, but still moving in the right direction. If we get Bargs back at this level consistently it's just going to add a new dimension to this team.

Interesting point on Rasho. Playing him vs. Hump or Andrea is going to be a much discussed topic I'd say for the rest of the year. Rasho might get the team more wins, but they need to play Andrea to get him going consistently and need Hump playing for certain situations. I really thought that Hump did a good job last night in limited minutes. Grabbed some offensive boards, had some nice moves in the post even though he missed his shots, and most importantly, gave Toronto a physical presence that really got under the Pistons skin. It was during this time period that the Pistons started complaining to the refs and Billups got T'ed up. Need more of this so Mitchell is going to have to find a good balance.

Finally, totally disagree with you Ustation. Yep, Peterson's been a chucker behind the arc this season but I've now watched the past five Hornets games and in terms of defense and making plays in general on offense, there's been no difference between the two in terms of the impact they've had on their respective clubs. In fact, Peterson's done a better job attacking the rim than Parker in general and has gone to the line five more times (40 to 35.) I'm not saying I'd rather have Mo Pete, I wouldn't at this point. I'm just saying that considering how much Peterson has struggled, Parker is hardly performing much better. If we want someone to just stand in the corner and shoot 3's then fine, keep doing your thing Parker. But this club needs AP to start going to the basket with more ferocity. Watching highlights of the 2007 Toronto Raptors season at half I couldn't help but notice Parker dunking on other players...love to see that type of fire again...

Where is BargsBust? Why is he quiet all of a sudden?

Maybe because Bargnani has turned the corner and is playing much better!

I too agree with Sergi's assessment. I think we need both TJ and Jose in the lineup to be successful. How many times would we watch TJ trying to take over a game only to let his ego cost us the game? On the other hand, Jose's defence has been very lax at best. What happened to the guy who played J Kidd so well in the playoffs last year (or did I just imagine this)? Having both brings a different element to the Raptors both offensively and defensively, which makes it difficult for opposing coaches to gameplan. Also, if one of these guys is making poor decisions or having a bad game, Smitch can always substitute accordingly. Now, do many of you still think that we should trade one of these two? I'm not so sure anymore...at least not the way this team is built. TJ’s desire and drive is sorely missed, especially when he is on his game, which we have seen a lot more of this year. When he isn’t, cue Jose (or vice versa)…just my thoughts!

We missed TJ because of Dixon's taking his minutes. Why was Andrea ignored in the 4th by almost everybody? What's wrong with feeding the hot player? As for Sam's outburst. What can I say... he is who he is: good at dishing it out but very thin-skinned on the receiving end.

Bemjo. Are you serious?

Of course Bargnani is a bust.
I would take Brandon Roy over Bargnani any day. I would also take Aldridge over him any day too. Brandon Roy would solve our Anthony Parker problems. Brandon Roy is an all star this year! And he would put our team ahead of Orlando Magic by now.

Right now it's so evident that
The Il Mago can't pass.
He also can't rebound.
For a center not to have at least five rebounds a game that's atrocious.
What's he's good at is scoring. But, his scores like a small forward not a center.

The raps don't do well against half court teams because we don't have a center that can make high percentage shots. Does Il Mago have a back to the basket game? Nope. Does he block shots? Nope. Can he hit an open 3 pointer, yup.

It's just going to take a lot of time for him to get better to reach all star status. Like a couple of years or so.

I do concede that his play has been a little bit more consistent, but he's not a number one pick, not a franchise player, and certainly not an all star.
Brandon Roy is eon's ahead of Il Mago. And we should have picked him or L. Aldridge instead.

If Il Mago can put together back to back double doubles then I'll have to eat my words.

Trading TJ is not really an option for the Raptors imo.
Reason is He is injury prone. No other team in the league would give the Raptors what the need to get for TJ and take TJ as their starting pg to build their furture on. TJ would only be a backup in the league for any other team.It does not matter to the Raptors who starts as they both play about equal minutes (all my opinion here is based on TJ being injure prone not His ability) as for Hump and Rasho AB plays starting role as last few games He looks to be back Hump and Rasho come off bench based on what we need. against bigger more experienced players its Rasho for sure.

I was the one telling all you guys, the players on the team play better when TJ is leading the show, and they came out said that in plane english, even the other teams that play the Raptors anre saying the team is better with TJ, that does not mean JC is not good it only means that the players play better when he is at the helm. IT is just like when Nash is leading they Phix players play better. I personally send ing TJ a message begging for him to come back soon.

Sorry all, don't think the US media was covering Toronto, we just happened to be playing Detroit, who they WERE covering, no?

Great analysis of Kapono/ Delfino...as I said a few days ago, they don't get the chance to play with Calderon:

The SINGLE MAJOR UNDENIABLE problem with our bench right now is that Jose is starting.

Mitchell's just emotional, I like it.

This forum is so "grass is greener on.." if TJ is not there, we miss him, Garbo is not there and we lose, he WAS the catalyst..blah blah blah.. Did anyone catch the Miami-Dallas game right after the Raps game (please don't tell me you tuned into see Sherm's dome & his banal commentary). With no Shaq/Wade/Mourning, they nearly took the Mavs to the cleaners..why? its all heart.

Ok, Marcia, ok. We all get it. You see the sun, moon and stars in TJ’s eyes. He is the B-all and End-all to all that is Raptors. Can you move on…please?

How do you define Bust in regards to Bargnani?
Is he a bust as a #1 pick if:
A – He never develops into a superstar
B - He needs more than 3 years to become the second scoring option behind Bosh
C - He develops into a very good player but not the center that club needs
D – Other

I was just wondering how long most of are willing to wait for the full development of this player before your pronounce him busted.

If you look at most of the number one picks who have not been busts, but have been good players it usually takes 1-2 years to make an impact on a team. Look at Lebron, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Howard, etc. etc. For Franchise to say that we need to wait one more year to see production out of Bargnani is B.S. Don't get me wrong Bargnani is a good player, but he's not a #1 pick and our pick could have been used on Roy. But, if we didn't take Bargnani we don't get the 'Godfather' and we wouldn't be winning so many games as today.
Gheradini has played a huge role in making the Raptors a successful team.

BarqsBust how many of these other #1's had to come to a new country, a new league with different rules, learn a new language, and a new position they had not played.

BC new when he drafted AB #1 that it would take a few years for him to reach his full potential, and still felt he was the best player available for the Raptors.

We will have to wait and see if he was right. I believe we have seen some signs, in his 1+ years to date of the potential that BC saw in him.

Bargsbust - First off, like oldschool said, how do you define bust? If a player who finished runner-up in rookie of the year voting and who has had a few struggles through the FIRST THIRD OF HIS SECOND SEASON after playing all summer and having some injuries is a bust to you, well I'm glad you're not an NBA GM. You might make Kevin McHale look good.

Second, naming the players you did to back up your argument doesn't make sense. (Not to mention that MJ wasn't a number one pick.) You named five of the most rare talents to have played the game of basketball in the past 20 years. Therefore yes, these players had an immediate impact after being drafted, that's part of what made them so special right from the get-go.

No one thought Andrea was the second coming of Jordan. In fact the player he was supposed to be the "second coming of" was Dirk, and it took Dirk a few seasons to get going.

To me a bust is a player that shows nothing from day one and therefore never comes close to meeting expectations ala Hoffa. Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Joe Smith come to mind in this respect in terms of bust first overall picks. Bargnani has already shown more potential and ability than any of these three.

And looking at the draft in general, if you were to write players off after less than a season and a half, than you would also be writing off the following players:

-Jermaine O'Neal (did nothing in Portland)
-Antawn Jamison (until Washington was little more than an undersized scoring 4)
-Joe Johnson (an after thought when traded by the Celtics to the Suns)
-Oh...and Steve Nash.

The list goes on and on with players who took a few seasons to find their games and some like Mike Dunleavy Jr. are just coming into their own now. Bigs are infamous for taking longer to adjust and guys like Tyson Chandler and Andris Biedrins have only recently come into their own.

And on top of everything, every year players who are picked number one don't become the best players in the draft. So many other factors besides scouting are at work (right situation that players are drafted into, work ethic, coaching, etc, etc) so if Bargs doesn't become the BEST player from his draft but becomes the fourth best, does that make him a bust? I can't even imagine what you'd be saying if we had drafted Adam Morrison...

So you might be right and Andrea may never become the player people envisioned in the NBA. It happens. Look at Derrick Coleman after the hype out of Syracuse.

But I just don't get how people can already say he's a bust, there just hasn't been enough time an on-court data to draw that conclusion at this point.

After the Raptors/Detroit game the Pistons are 18-2 vs the Eastern teams. The Rap's are not good enough to beat the Elite teams without everyone contributing.
Jose offset Billups 18 pts 9 ast with 15pts 9 ast (if Jose was unable to defend CB, he was unable to defend JC also) but AP was badly beaten by Hamilton 22-7. The bench with Dixon was beaten 27 to 5, so no offset. TJ is weeks away, so if BC does not rls Dmart and replace him with a competent PG the bench, & Rap's may continue to struggle. They must solve the inconsistant play by AP also.The starters can't continue in the 40's.

On missing TJ Ford. With TJ starting: TJ 8 ast JC 6 ast
TJ 14.7pts JC 8.6pts.
Forderon 14 ast, 23 pts
Calderon 9.8ast 13 pts as the starter. Part of the reason the offense is down. As well as the second unit not having Calderon to run it. BC must take action !!!

great game in Detroit tonight too bad wrong team won. Glen Davis had one heck of a game. Billips was so so missed 2 key free throws. If these teams meet in the East finals it looks like 7 hard fought games. I hate to say this but Boston.... got to hand it to them.... they played great even with Garnet in foul trouble in first half.

Marica

did u see Chris Paul blow by Nash a number of times tonight? they should trade Him for TJ lol

rubik - I can only speak for myself, but there is no "grass is greener" thing going on with missing tj and garbo. I say I miss a player if they would've helped in a certain matchup and we need all we can get against billups at the pg spot and their bench is dynamite now to boot. So I missed tj last night, whereas I might not so much against pg-deficient teams like cleveland.

Garbo I miss when we play any half court team, but not at all against running teams. Mo pete I miss when guys seem to need an emotional lift or when a major player goes down because it always seemed to me he stepped up to those occasions, though he coasted as a role player.

Don't assume so much.

Bargsbust pwned by Franchise!! Ouch. Do your homework kid.

I disagree Franchise, Anthony Parker wasn't bad he was ugly.

It's become apparent over two years that AP is mentally weak club. He's WILDLY inconsistent, occasionally puts up inexplicable airballs, and whenever he is asked to hit FTs that matter in a game he ALWYAS misses both.

I think our starting line-up is pretty decent right now, and will only get better as Moon and Bargnani develop. But if BC wants to upgrade this teams starting 5, it has to be at the SG spot. AP was a great stop gap to get us from a cellar-dweller to respectability but he is not a a SG for a contending club.

A consistent slashing threat, who is good in the open floor, can play D, and can hit a wide open J, is what this team needs. Of those things right now AP can only do the last.