Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post-Game: Not Quite Déja-Vu aka Something’s Bugging Me

it just kills me when the raps get killed on the boards. I disagree with you though franchise. Rebounding, more than anything else, is about effort. In late game situations, when getting a rebound is do or die, raptors always wilt. It's even more apparent when you look at guys like mcguire continually getting offensive rebounds late.

I just think it has to do with the type of guys we have on the floor. As much as I love them, it's hard to expect parker, kapono, calderon, moon, Bargs or graham to push people around. They're just too nice.

I love this team. But it's evident that the raps are missing some swagger. Instead of imposing their will on lesser opponents, in most cases, they get pushed around.

This game (and the Boston game) are perfect examples.

Toronto gave Joey an extension, as well as Humps, in the offseason, I guess to address the rebounding? I am guessing that Joey was a higher draft pick than the bench guys you mentioned? He has done nothing. Maybe our scouts just don't get it.

BTW, Papa, my comments on the last article were reflected in everything Franchise wrote in the post-game. So much for not being insightful. If you don't like it, start posting during the game like I was. I was treating this as a live blog, that's why the 9 comments in a row. Wish other people would intersperse with their in-game observations.

What a difference a year makes. A year ago, Colangelo could do no wrong. Now? Not so much. The Bargnani pick is looking like it might end up being an epic bust. The Joey Graham extension looks puzzling given that he hasn't shown any improvement, and in fact seems to be regressing in some ways. The Kapono signing looks like it's really hurting the team this season. Instead of using the MLE on some rebounding help, Kapono gives us another three point shooter on a team full of them. Of course, whenever he's on the court, that means either Parker or Delfino, two great three point shooters with vastly superior overall games, is on the bench. Aside from the TJ injury, I think these bad decisions by BC are the root of the Raps struggles this season. Could we please try packaging some combination of Kapono, Bargnani, Graham, Dixon and a big contract (Rasho?) for a rebounding big man?

Rebounding and interior defence and scoring were the Raps' main problems last season, and no moves were made to address them. Was Bargnani supposed to magically figure out how to rebound overnight? It's kind of hard when he hangs around the three point line all the time, doesn't box out, doesn't follow up his shots, and generally makes very little effort to get the ball in any situation.

Sorry to sound like Bargsbust here, but next time you watch a Raps game and Bargnani's on the court, watch for what he does away from the ball. His body language makes it seem like he's completely disinterested in the game. When a shot goes up, you'll see him either stop where he is, make no effort whatsoever to box out his man or get near the ball and watch an opposing player rebound it, or else he won't even do that, and will just start running back down the court before the ball even hits the rim. Every time Humphries is in the game, he gets a couple rebounds that he has absolutely no business getting just by sticking with the play. Have we EVER seen this from Bargnani? Rebounding mostly comes down to who wants it more, and Bargnani looks like he doesn't really care much either way.

When you stand back and look at the big picture, the Raps like every team have their weaknesses. Some of those can be corrected thru trades and some thru changes in how players are used. The trade component is blurred by salary cap issues. The biggest need is to improve rebounding and we can only assume that Colangelo is working on that. As for the coach's decisions on who plays and the substitutions, there are some real weakness there and the media seems unable or unwilling to uncover the reasoning of one Sam Mitchel. It starts with the Barganini situation. Someone needs to ask Colangelo "Have you ordered Sam to start Bargani? Everyone agrees that this kid is talented but his treatment as "special" is hurting the team.He needs to have the proper mentoring and substitute off the bench for Bosh. Rasho needs to be starting and Hump needs to be getting more minutes behind him. And Delfino has to be recognized as a better player than Kapo and get minutes accordingly. Dixon is doing a better job at the point and hopefully the Ford situation willsoon be resolved. You would think the Rap organization would be more open about this situation but it has been kept as a big secret.And finally, it is scary to think what would happen should Bosh be injured because they have come to depend on him more than ever before. Hope they have a backup plan.

Interesting comment on PJ Tucker - have thought the same thing last little while. Where is he now on why did Raps sour on him so quick? The little I know about him makes me think he is the type of player we are missing.
If anything, yesterday's game made me realize that there is another better than average team in the East. The Wizards impressed me last night and the Raptors, once again, failed to take that second step forward. Well - its still only mid point. I like our group of players and am hoping our rebounding improves from within but my doubts grow bigger after games like this one. Rebounding is tricky. Is it effort? Good instincts? Or just the way the ball bounces. Probably all of the above. I feel for CB4 because he's leaving it all on the court and no one has consistantly stepped up to help.
You know Gerry, I been pretty nice with you lately, but your comments last night make me think there's too much caffeine in your system.
I can post a link to another blog, with F or H's OK, where there is usually chat during games. i personally don't go there during games because it takes me away from game in progress and find that the comments are reactions that come across as blabber. Maybe you can go there and give your play by play and then post a summary on here. Give me the OK guys.

Anthony Parker shoots his normal percentage and we win this game. They outhustled us, but it wouldn't have taken much more to steal this one back.

I like what mitchell tried to do, spreading the floor and going to hump. Parker tried to go to the rim, but was defended really well plus he didn't get any love from the refs.

I thought mitchell gave up on bargs too fast, he got position in the paint a few times, and the ball didn't get to him - at least one time it seemed he was complaining to delfino that he should have passed it to him when delfino chose to drive himself instead.

Not to mention washington is a much better defensive team without gilbert arenas. It's like everyone's in position all the time or sumthin'

Looking at a close win like this, where we don't have to people to execute plan b I see the need for a better back up PG getting desperate.

As usual, excellent comments.
The worst loss of the season so far. A game like this makes you wonder: is this just a learning lesson on the road to greatness or is a sign of what we are to become? My 2 cents:
1. As of now our team is not balanced; every roster has positions of relative strength and positions of relative weakness. We have a deep hole at C position: Rasho is not productive off the bench and Hump, yesterday's game notwithstanding, forgets he's in the gane to provide hustle and rebounding. The organization took (presumably) a calculated risk to start Andrea for future benefit at the expense of wins in the present. Because of our weak inside presence and rebounding our guards are forced to double team and protect the limits of the paint therefore opening up the 3-point line.
2. our wings are extremely streaky AT THE SAME TIME; yesterday our wings shot an abysmal 8 of 33 and grabbed only 11 out of 44 rebounds. The only consistent players we have are CB4 and Jose. On the road it's almost impossible to win with only 2 players showing up consistently. I have no idea why is this happening however it is maddening at times.
I will have this game in mind for a long time. If this players have any kind of pride in them they should win all the rebounding battles from now until the All-Star break.48d12

Raps refuse to turn the corner. Every time we start to get excited about a possible winning streak ... this happens. Maybe we are what we are? A 2nd tier team in the east no better and no worse than the Washingtons, the Clevelands, the Orlando's ... and not guaranteed to beat the New Jersey's, the Indiana's, the Philly's etc etc.

Until Bargnani (and I do mean "until" and not "if") gets his head out of his ass, I think the Raps are going to continue to tread water, a few games over .500. Win a few here, lose a few there. A few steps forward, a few steps back.

There are a few other determining factors aside from Bargs. Maybe BC will work some trade deadline magic. Maybe TJ will comeback. Maybe Hump or Joey will come on strong in the 2nd half the way they did last year. But right now, these guys just can't get on a roll. And its tough to win consistently when you can't take care of the glass.

To quell any rising storm here, Howland and I are actually trying to develop a "game-day" segment of the site where readers can chat live during the game and give their thoughts. That way we hope to have the best of both worlds as we realize that some readers enjoy that sort of interactivity while others find it pointless ha ha. To each his own.

Great point Daniel about the wings being streaky at the same time. And not only in terms of shooting, but rebounding. 11 in total? How many times did you see Anthony Parker give up rebounds last night? I can count 3 off the top of my head. And AP didn't always have bad position, sometimes he just didn't jump or high enough.

Here we go again. Bargs is a bust. Smitch sucks. The Raptors this the Raptors that. The Sky is falling the sky is falling. When will the chicken littles get over themselves.
I agree games like last night are frustrating to watch and understand but saying this player or that player is a bust and we should package half our team for Reggie Evans is a reactionary position based on a loss. If you have been watching them play of late you could see a game like this coming a mile away. They have been giving up a ton of O boards lately and I believe teams have recongnised this area as one they can exploit and teams are doing it. With that being said, they are still winning more games then they lose of late. My concerns are much more disturbing and are based on how the team is put together as it presently stand.
1. I couldn't help but notice that Antonio Daniels (a huge bust from the Griz org) seemed to beat Calderon at will. I have always seen Calderon as the Spanish Nash, a great offensive guard but who doesn't do much on d. This issue could be resolved by having Ford back or a defensive point guard who could come in to match up against quick penetrating guards (though I am not sure daniels qualifies).
I do not understand how everyone is so blind to the raps need for another PG. Yes Dixon played ok in limited minutes but can you imagine what would happen if he or Martin had to start? Martin is done. He may have the occasional ok game but most of the time he is next to useless out there and I do not understand how he even gets minutes at all at this stage as Dixon has outplayed him most of the time. In fact going back to the last game against Milwaukee, I couldn't understand why Dixon wasn't playing garbage time to work on his point play in a game situation instead of wasting minutes on that bloated excuse for a point guard. Can someone please explain that to me?
2. Rebounding is always going to be an issue. If you believe that the Raps can address this with a single player yall are crazy. This will only change (as I believe someone already stated) with some serious changes in either bodies or attitude. Teams are not just bullying the Raps, they are out right fouling them on a lot of boards but the Raps are so soft that the Refs can't brig themselves to call them on it. How can you tell if someone is going over the back when the inside man is giving way? The raps also seem to be mistiming their Rebounding attempts which doesn't help. A number of O boards they gave up were a result of jumping too early and then getting caught underneath the Washington players. I have always disagreed with the notion that boards are completely about desire as it truely is a skill that is not as easy to teach as people believe. Yes desire can get you a board or two a game but a lot of it is positioning and timing and you can teach it to some degree but just like jump shooting or ball handling, it is a skill set that not everyone has.
There were a few things I liked about last nights performance. The Raps fought through a horrible shooting night and their own lack of aggression, and I cannot help but chalk this loss (to some extent) on Washington being at home and wanting it a little more. With the way the Raps played throughout much of the second half, there is no way they should have even had a chance to tie it up. I also liked Bosh's effort of late, as he is diving for balls and doing a lot of the little things that White Oak (Garbajosa) did for us last year. Hopefully they will come out with a better effort tonight and come away with the split as I am not sure I can deal with another day of posts saying we should trade everyone blah blah blah.

Here is one U can laugh at the top assist to turnover ratio in the league!!!None other than Derek Martin!!Although minutes have to factored in. Now we know He is the stud of the league!

McGateway – Thanks for your perspective on last night’s game. I was practically foaming at the month after watching the halfhearted effort of the Raps. I had intended on following it up with a rant on this site that may have included trading the whole lot of them. After your and others reasoned observations I have cooled off. Thanks for that.
One thing I’ve learnt in life is to take a long walk or take a silent moment before engaging in an emotional discourse. It applies here as well.

Good analysis.

Let's hope Roko Ukic is working on boxing out.

Why isn't Moon driving the ball? This issue gets me.

There were actually quite a few positives last night, rebounding aside:

Bosh is playing like a machine, big onions from Parker, fun game to watch, unlikely road OT when loss seemed inevitable....they didn't quit, and kept their body language positive. Some clutch shooting if not great %.

We totally suck at rebounding.
Especially preventing 2nd chance points which kills us. No surprise there, yes Rasho would help, but we've been through that issue. He'll play more in the playoffs if needed.

I'm not second guessing Colangelo at all, I still love each of his moves.

I too hope that Roko is working on his box-outs...maybe he'll end up on this list at some point:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Whaddayouthink-the-NBA-s-best-point-guard-?urn=nba,64158

That was a disappointing loss, to say the least.

I feel like every Raps possession is just so frustrating:

Please don't jack up a shot. Please don't jack up a shot.

Ok, he took an 18 footer:

Please grab the board.
Please grab the board.

Ok, you missed the board:

Please don't give up a layup
Please don't give up a layup

Ok, we gave up the layup. Let's get one of our own on this possession...

Please don't jack up a shot...

And on and on. Ugh. Oh well, better luck tonight maybe. At least it's exciting to watch.

"You can't teach rebounding..." RAPS need a BIG in order for us to get past the second round. Look for the front line to be shored up before the trade deadline. Although we can shoot the rock unconciously out on any given night... ala the Boston game... we can still lose because of our lack of offensive/defensive rebounding. Colangelo will make a "Bold" move... I just don't know with which team. Reports indicate the Mighty Mouse could have been here earlier in the season, but the deal was canned on our part. Tonites game is HUGE... the RAPS better bring their HARD HATS & JumpShots... if possible.

I'd be surprised at a move. Once heard an interview with BC talking about short-term and long term goals. I do not think we are far off on the short-term, not enough to justify a change. And winning a championship is a long term goal. I think a lot of our expectations did not include Boston jumping out to such an incredible start. Take the C's down a notch and were in the mix, battling for first. Does BC roll the dice as a reaction to Boston's success? Or does he stay the course. I still say we should stay the course. That being said if we could package off some spare parts(Dixon, Martin, Graham and possibly Kapono)for a servicable big then go for it. But what can we expect for the above? Our saviour?
Our big move involves resigning Jose in the off-season and TJ becoming healthy.
SuperSonic - your assessment of us being a second tier Eastern term is correct. I would lump us in with Orlando and Washington(who appear to be a decent team). I would have to say the Cavs are a notch above us, just because Lebron seems to be unstoppable whenever he's motivated.

Great review, great comments, terrible game.

1) When Raptors win a game I'd like to hear some more critisism of them and when they lose a game i'd like to hear some encouragement. It seems whenever we lose some people want to overhaul the entire roster. And when we win people are saying we can beat anybody on any night we are so good.

Bottom line is this team is a high 2nd tier team in the east. We are not going to beat Boston or Detroit. We are equal to the Wiz, Cavs, Magic and would probably beat the rest in a 7 game series.

Thats exactly where I expected us this year, and where most of the people expected us so when we are 4 games over .500 halfway through the season with so many injuries I don't understand all the negative comments about making massive trades. Comment about our horrible play during this game if you want....but because of one loss we don't need to make massive changes, nobody was calling for changes when we beat the spurs, hornets, celtics.

Its important to note Andrea has been improving on the defensive end, he does still look a bit out of place however he is much improved compared to prior to the celtics game. Now that his rebounding is getting better hopefully his shot will start falling.

Jose Calderon is a great initiator of our offence, runs it very well, gets everyone involved, doesn't turn the ball over and shoots amazingly well however nobody is going to confuse him for Bruce Bowen or Ron Artest on the other end.

I think the raptors have built their future around a strong defence is a good offence....which is fine however it'll probably take a much improved Andrea for that to work.

And a question: Jason Kidd has been voted a starter, say tomorrow he gets traded to the Western Conference....what happens then?

Does he start in the west? Say the west starters all had more votes then kidd so kidd comes of the bench for the west. Does somebody else come off the team because kidd is now on it? Or is the team allowed to have 13 players as an exception? Or does he not get to play at all?

Question: Did Jamario Moon drive once during the game last night?

Nope - not once and after being called out by agent 0 you would think he'd be ready to throw it down. He might have had one semicontested layup. Not that Nick Young was anything special but Moon needs to step up tonite big time.

Agree with Franchise on the rebounding situation too...guys like Mcguire were outjumping the Raps, not just outworking them. No need to trade the whole team, but this is stuff in teh off-season that BC will have to look at I personally think.

Great question re: Jason Kidd and the All-Star game and I really am not sure. That sure would be a twist. Speaking of Kidd, I can't stop laughing reading this link from Kelly Dwyer. If you need a good laugh, and I did today, check it out:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Shocking-dialogue-Jason-Kidd-meets-with-Rod-Tho?urn=nba,64142

oh man, that was funny

Excellent comments all, especially McGateway mentioning "White Oak" and wtf's astute point that Jose's offensive excellence is off-set by his Nash-like defense.

Fact is, this team wouldn't be so lop-sided with the rebounds, offensive or otherwise if not for injuries. BC simply did not plan for TJ and Garbo practically missing the entire season (or most of it). But can a GM truly plan for a team missing 2/5 of their previous year's starting 5 for so long?

And notice I mentioned Garbo AND TJ. Garbo averaged 5 RPG in 28 minutes, and TJ 3.2 in 30 minutes. The latter is actually quite a good rebounder for an NBA PG, especially one with TJ's stature. In Milwaukee, TJ played 35 1/2 minutes and averaged 4.3 RPG, which is excellent. And both TJ and Garbo averaged over 1 steal per game.

So there you have it, replace Garbo and TJ with (comparatively) poor defensive players like Bargs and Jose and the Raps are pretty much where they should be. The Wiz are fortunate that replacement players such as Blatche and McGuire are BETTER defensively than Gilbertology. Let's hope the outcome is different tonight; I'll be at the game and should have some tidbits tomorrow.

I actually finder it harder to see whats going on in the game when I'm there live....perhaps the raptors dance packs distracts me.

Looks like it will be a rematch again....meaning Caron Butler will not be playing. If the raps lose this game it will probably devestate their confidence.

Glad to see Andrea made the rookie sophmore challange....would have done even more damage to his confidence if he didnt make it.

What about brining in Rodman as a rebounding coach? If you can do it with shooting, why not rebounding?

I often find myself asking the TV "how can you defend when you are playing beside or behind a player?" as JC often is. Does the scouting report say "this guy likes to run backwards to his own basket"? Does it say "he gets intimidated if he sees a clear path to the basket with no one in front of him"? It happens so often, I just don’t get it.

I also don’t get why Martin is EVER on the floor. Chuck keeps spewing the party line: "for match up". What does that mean? What match is it that it’s more favourable to have a chubby middle aged man who can’t do much of anything than at least have someone who can knock down a shot? There is nothing (except maybe lining up at the buffet line) that Martin is better at than Dixon.

@ jjdynomite,

Pls get your facts straight before posting: in regards to TJ and Jose rebounding numbers is exactly the other way around. Jose has 3.2 boards in 31.7 minutes whereas TJ has 1.90 in 25.8 minutes.
As for their respective defenses, maybe some other time.

With Bargnani and Moon in rookie/soph game, moon in dunk off, kapono in 3-point contest (maybe even parker?), plus bosh and jose (fingers crossed) in the game itself; Raptors might have the most representation of any team in all-star weekend.

Hey Daniel, you frickin' genius, why don't YOU learn to read. I was comparing Garbo and TJ's rebounding LAST YEAR to this year, in pointing out why it seems that the Raps are losing games more frequently due to rebounding and poor defensive positioning (over anything else). If you want to bring up TJ's rebounding THIS season, when he has been pretty much injured the whole time, just to prove your point, go ahead -- but you're wrong.

I know it may be hard for you especially, but please take off your Jose jammies for a second and realize, like most REASONABLE posters here do (such as Erezona just above) that Jose's man-to-man defense is poor, and even crappier when you take into account all the things he DOES NOT DO that TJ did (playing tighter defense on the opposition's #1 PG), or Garbo (covering the mistakes of the other players on the floor -- and he'd be doing plenty of covering for Jose right now).

And beyond rebounding numbers, both of what Garbo and TJ did to the opposition (defensive positioning, charges taken, bothering shots, etc.) often didn't show on the box score. When was the last time Jose took a charge, Daniel? If you want to evaluate your PGs according to fantasy stats, go ahead -- but you're wrong.

Look it's not just Jose. It's certainly Bargs, Moon often plays like the rookie he is, and, as arenalist.com pointed out in his latest post today, AP's perimiter defense has been on the decline (and he ain't 27 anymore, dominating against Israelis). And Bosh has never been mistaken for KG. All in all, when the opposition presents long, athletic players like Jamison, Blatche and McGuire, it is a very tough match-up for the Raps as currently constituted.

jj - great point about garbo and tj's 10 extra boards. While delfino/moon make up some of the difference on the stat sheet, I'd like to add the garbo rates much higher in terms of "timely" rebounds. Like when the raps *have* to get one, he's either boxing out or going for it, not backpedaling down the court like some players are.

It's about taking responsibility for the ball/basket/possession/win by doing your utmost every time down the court. And I'm not crossing over into bargisabust territory, but this is where bargnani lets the team down. He often just exits the play after he shoots, so many his shots clank right back to where he shot them from, but he's gone already. Would like to see him assume every shot is a miss and go for the ball every time.

erezona - yes, yes, bring rodman in, I'd love that, hell put baston on waivers and sign the dude

Franchise, can't help but agree with you on all these things. On a recent radio interview (on the FAN590), Colangelo was talking about some of these same of these same issues (rebounding, interior toughness), and his previous team has guys who can slash and finish hard, though the suns still eschew rebounding.

IMO, Colangelo has demonstrated his understanding of the problems that the raps have. My guess is that he's just waiting for the right deal--not just the player, but cap considerations as well.

----

Another note - the first game against a team that just lost a big player is always scary. The other players know there is a hole so they step it up. Increased effort and intensity bring a fire to the game, and it throws off scouting reports. (Who knew McGuire was going to do what he did?) These are always dangerous games. That being said, we all know that the wiz reserves can't do this all time. I expect toronto to look much better tonight, mostly because Washington looks much worse.

yeah raptorman, can't imagine the raps not being able to lock down andray blatche two games in a row, but we shall see

Go raps!!

wtf why do we keep playing a shooting guard (Delfino) on a powerforward (Jamison)

And since they started a big lineup with two powerforwards and centers and rebounding was such a problem with us why don't we go with a big lineup of bosh, bargs, rasho/hump or hump, rasho, bosh

We are ahead by alot, but living on the jump shot. I would have hoped to see more hard-nosed play, and out-rebounding Wash by a lot more.

At the end of the 3rd, starting to look better.

They've credited andrea with 2 rebounds....by my count he had 4 but oh well...

He's playing much better...and he's actually decent in the paint but he seems to get a bit to anxious down there and fumbles around a bit. However great game....in the last 4 games he's had 2 very strong games a decent game and a bad game. In the 4 previous games to that he probably had 4 bad games so I'm happy.

Bosh and Calderon also getting to rest which is great. Bring on the lakers and heat....

YAAA my man baston is in the game

Latest news on TJ returning to practice:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3222975

wtf i'm going to kill raptors tv.....three out of the next 4 games i won't be able to watch because they're on rapstv.....

Still pissed off about last night.

Too bad we can't decide the 2 wins based on the aggregate scores from the last two games.

@jjdynomite,

I don't even know exactly what's fantasy stats, I just have time to watch the sport I love and the team I like.
The facts are: we won more games this year compared with the same period of last year (only the expectations are higher), we have a higher defensive rebounding rate than last year due to new players like Moon and Delfino and we do miss Garbo a lot for all the intangibles he brought to the table.
Everybody is a reasonable poster until name-calling starts. And don't confound preferences with value.

jjdynomite said: "Hey Daniel, you frickin' genius, why don't YOU learn to read."

Actually JJ, it's you who need to read. You misquoted TJ's 2007-08 record, even going as far as substituting JC's numbers as that of TJ.

As for Garbo, yeah we miss him and his pep. And yes, me miss TJ, but not because of his numbers ... more so because we have NO 2ND PG without him.

For anyone concerned about Calderons 1 on 1 defense he is not or never will be great at it. Neither is or will Steve Nash and he manages quite well. A PG's main concern is to manage the offense, where Jose excells and ranks in the top 5 in the NBA in player efficiency.
The Raptors do not utiize anyone as a 1 on 1, defender but use a team system that is quite effective on average. As anyone knows averages have highs and lows. Rap's defense (points allowed) has improved from 11th last year to 6th this year in the 30 team NBA @ 95ppg. There problem is not defense, it is team concentration in defensive rebounding in some games. Again on average they allow about 10 off rebounds and make about 10 off rebounds themselves. As always averages have highs and lows. when they are not scoring rebounds become critical. Overall rebounds are better than last year. Improvement will have to come from within as there is no magic solution to add to the team.