Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post-Game: Going Forward

About time we play the Knicks.
Can't say anything about last night excited me. OK we got Philly's number - shame we won't see them in the first round.
I'm starting to rethink my preseason's expectations of this club. Our record reflects our season so far, middle of the pack team in the weaker conference. Don't think we'll catch Boston and Detroit, and think the Cavs are preparing to make a push to separate from the pack. Where does that leave us? probably battling for the 4th, 5th or 6th seed with the likes of Orlando and Jersey - also a good chance our first round playoff matchup as well(if we drop to 6th possibly the Cavs).
Are we capable of making a push ourselves?And possibly get the 3rd seed? I would like to say yes, but have yet to see the consistancy from our guys. A healthy TJ would definately help.

I agree,we beter not take the Knicks lightly.
One thing for sure....and dont get me wrong,I own a Bargs jersey,but he is lost out there...it looks like he doesn't even know how to position himself....and forget about receiving a pass from anybody,unless the shot clock is down to 2 seconds....
Whoever the Raps have working with the kid,is just not working....I could not agree more,a double edge sword,he needs the time to improve but at what cost,Rasho and Hump on the bench....
How many times has poor Hump bobbled the inside pass in the last two games,3 or 4 times?
And the MoonMan 5 blocks,everybody is saying that he has to work on his shot...ya,thats what everybody said about J.C.'shooting !!
I guess at the end of the day ,if our shooters shoot like they are supposed to,there wont be any offensive boards to worry about.All we would have to do is get Bargs to park his pasta butt on someone at the defensive end to help Cb.

Were the Raps showcasing Joey last night? I think so. Package him and Juan Brixon for a player who refuses to help an opponent up off the floor. I don't care if he's any good.

Anyone else super excited about the Jackie Christie potential in Bosh's woman? The signs are there ....

you gotta check out all the lastest on http://www.jamariomoonshine.com/

Rookie of the year!! Jamario Mooooooooooooon!

Let me just say, it's unfair that ANYONE gets compared to Jackie Christie.

Which led me to think.. I wonder what a party would be like with Antonio Davis and Doug Christie's family be like.

I guess I'd rather party with Gary Payton and J. Tinsley.

never quite understood why bargs can't develop coming off the bench. never understood that with hoffa either.

Terrible game to watch. We were lucky to win last night with our poor work inside. Too many jump shots again. Joey looked good and if they were showcasing him I'd be sad to see him go. Although I love Jose, I really miss TJ. IMHO, Colangelo need to change the make up of this team to make them a lot tougher if we're going to contend.

Finally people are starting to understand that we have to toughen up to compete....not to become goons,but we do have to toughen up ...watch the Knicks bounce us around the key like pinballs !!!the shots better be falling,because we ain't going to see any rebounds...

@Franchise

Good point about Delfino and Kapono...I was mentioning to a buddy of mine the other day how well they seem to work together. I'd seriously like to know what percentage of Delfino's assists are to Kapono, he always seems to find him in the right spot. Conversely, Kap seems to look for Del as well. I think they enjoy playing together.

I refuse to jump on the "Bargs is a bust" bandwagon, but I am concerned. I don't think he will ever be the 5 this team needs, he has skills and mindset of a small forward in a 7' body, and I think we need to realize that. I'm not saying he should play the 3 (too slow) but we need to get creative with him....let him be a monster offensive player and stop trying to make him into something he's not (rebounder, defender). Someone like Don Nelson would have a field day with this kid, and if we don't figure it out soon we're going to regret it, because another team will.

Bargnani has been touted as having the potential skills of Dirk N in Dallas. How many would place Dirk as one of the top centers around? Of course not because he's a 4. Why then would we expect Bargnani to develop as a center. For those of you who feel Rasho should be starting, the reason he is "not" is that Colangelo's reputation is riding on Bargnani as the #1 pick and Bargnani's confidence seems to be fragile if he doesn't start. It's a tough spot for Sam because although he punishes Joey for not rebounding and playing defence, he can't treat Andrea the same way.Championship teams of the past have had strong defensive centers - Rasho does fit this bill to a great extent hence the dilemma

Great point RT. I was just reading your comment Stylin Assasin and got thinking: "that's the thing, we compare Bargs to Dirk and the Mavs play Diop and Dampier at the 5. So why would we as fans, or BC for that matter expect him to be this team's center of the future? I should write an aritcle on this..."

Then of course I saw your comment RT which expressed just that...

PS - Love the Jackie Christie comment Sonicsuper. Saw her on the Score highlights this morning with the Vote for Pedro style T-shirt supporting CB4 and had the same thoughts. It also got me thinking that perhaps she should be the HQ's next "15 Questions With" guest...

I agree with you 100% on Bargs. This team has to make a decision on him. He is absolutely lost out there on the defensive end and he couldn't rebound in my son's junior high league. I know he has loads of potential but development aside I want the team to win and to be frank Bargs is a big time liability on the floor right now. I have to laugh at those bloggers that complain about Bargs not playing and blaming Sam for losses. What coach is going to play someone who isn't getting the job done?

It's such a nice feeling when my Raps win. Philly always out rebounded us, so I will take the W over rebounding anytime. With that said we have to do better on the boards. I am not sure if you guys notice but our rebounding woes started when they put Bargnani back in the starting line up. Franchise point about Rasho is dead on. Sam needs to put Rasho back in the starting line up to increase our defensive intensity, I know Andrea is the future so let him come off the bench until he is developed. Hell, Larry Brown selected Darko #2 behind Lebron and they did not let him play for what 2 to 3 years. Andrea does not understand the 5 position, he needs to watch and practice until the coach feel he is ready. We can't go to the playoffs with Bargnani starting he is lost out there. We know he can score but his defence is way to soft, you have to have a mean streak to rebound the ball. Sam should take his time with Bargs and let him come off the bench and if he doesn't bring it, keep him on a tight leash and give him the same quick hook that he has been giving Joey. Speaking of Joey he needs to play at lot more. Joey and Hump are the only players that can bang on the Raps, well you can add Rasho to that mix. But I love Joey's game, I think the media is the reason Joey doesn't get a lot of playing time. Good Joey, Bad Joey, just let the kid be Joey. He is a crowd pleaser..did you see that slam..wow..and finally it was my post that I told Franchise that on any given night any team can be beaten by another team. I think Charlotte has just woken up the league, you will se Boston loose a lot more games now. GOOD NEWS COMING OUT OF RAPTOR LAND...TJ HAS BE CLEARED TO START WORKING OUT SO HE SHOULD BE BACK SOON..GOD BLESS HIM...Raps4Life

The ultimate goal of a team is to win a championship. We are moving in the right direction. Everyone on the raptors continues to get better and better and our depth grows (obvious exception is bargs)

Starting Bargs does nothing for his confidence becuase he doesn't EVER finish a game. Andrea isn't stupid....he's good enough to start but not good enough to finish? I think he knows what that means....I think everyone knows what that means.

That being said if TJ had stayed healthy and Andrea played like he did last year this team would be far ahead of where they currently are.

YOu don't need to overhaul this team....you dont need to make major changes. YOU NEED PATIENCE. We were in the lottary two years ago because we were horrible...last year we made the playoffs...this year we're deeper and still going to make the playoffs despite the abscence of TJ.

Our weakness are obvious...too much outside shooting...not enough rebounding...nobody is tough. But there is such a thing as developing young talent. You don't need to get rid of players to accomplish your goals...you can develop and groom players. Bosh is still 23 or 24 years old...he's not even in his prime yet...tj is 24...andrea is 22....it will take time. You don't always get to draft a lebron, shaq or duncan.

Remember how many questions there were about duncan's toughness? How he was to quiet? Too soft?

Anybody asking those questions now?

Let our players develop...Brian has a vision and thus far the raps have been getting better and better. If you were to keeping shipping in and out players you'd never become a championship team becuase there would be no chemistry or consistancy.

Look at how long its taken dallas and they still haven't won....look at the suns...it takes time...however what both those teams have is consistancy...they have their core and stick with it.

Not everyone gets a duncan or shaq......I think i can guess what andrea will spend all summer working on....

these guys are extremely young and are still competing in the east...the major players will be together for another 4 years and thats when they will be in their prime.

Another great read, franchise. I totally agree about the rasho/bargnani conundrum. In fact I still think we would have made it to the second round last year if we'd seen more rasho and less bargnani.

That said, yes, I'd rather lose now with bargs developing than win with rasho. I think we make the playoffs either way. I do think bargs is tough and actually looks pretty strong to me, and his defense and passing reminds me of garbo more than anyone when he's going well, like the way he lets a player think he's past him at the hoop then bumps him with his body.

He has skills. He tries things bosh doesn't/can't and reads the floor much quicker. He takes risks that once the team knows he's capable of, they'll be ready for it and they will pay off as big as they flop now (same as tj). He can go left. He posts people up, although teammates are too slow to get him the ball.

Although obviously he has work to do to make things consistent, the potential is there. And if the caliper test mean anything he will one day be the clutch perfomer we need.

I wonder if he'd played division 2 instead of euroleague if he'd have a little more of the intensity and physicality he's missing. I'm all for finding out sooner rather than later.

I agree Andrea has all the tools to be a star...he even has the size and bulk to play the undersized center position unlike bosh (this is made more clear in person)

However he is just too lost on the defensive end....chases the ball instead of staying with his man and can never stay between his man and the basket usually because he gets distracted and then finds himself out of position.

However there are weaknesses that can be taught and overcome with experience and patience. What you can't teach is 7 feet tall, shooting touch, ability to run the floor, agility and dribbling.

Defensive rotations, help on screens, switches, boxing out...just not being so lost on defense can all be learned.

However at time it can be very frustrating......and people lose their patients....however what they should not lose is the big picture....andrea and bosh are the future....he needs experience, time and a few more kicks in the butt

Further to my earlier thoughts re: bargs, I really believe we need to get radical in order to get the full benefit from our line-up.

One example of this I really want to see is a 3-big line up for parts of the game ie. CB4-bargs-Rasho/Kris. I know that there are immediate issues with this on both ends of the court, but basketball is a game of matchups, and if this setup causes more problems for the opposition than it does us then it is a net advantage.

If you wonder who plays the 3, I ask who plays the 5 for GS? It doesn't matter at all, because GS runs sets (or doesn't, as the case may be:-)) that take advantage of the players they have. We could do the same instead of trying to cram Bargs into mold that he doesn't fit into (the fact he DOESN'T fit the mold is why he's exciting).

I'm not saying we go big all the time, but I think it might work.

The one common thing that I notice with all these Bargnani criticism is that everyone likes Bargs and that is a good thing. I do believe that patience is a virtue with Bargnani and I really believe that Sam should move Bargs back to the 4 have him come off the bence to releive Bosh. His minutes will be down but it will give him time to develop and not force him to play the 5. Bosh plays the centre position better than Bargnani so if he is productive back at the 4 then when Sam have him and Bosh on the floor, let Bargnani play the 4 and Bosh the 5. If we go Big have Rasho/Hump plays the 5 and move Bosh over to the 3. Just a thought...Raps4Life

Props to Styling Assasin, well said.

It seems like a couple of games ago Delfino said to Kapono "since Dixon isn't passing us the ball let's start hooking eachother up."

Bargnani's rebounding is pathetic, I honestly don't think he is getting the proper guidance on how to play the 5.

If he simply put a body on his man at all when the shot is up, he would improve...all the guy has to do is get 5/6 rpg. or so and we would lay off him for now.

i like stylin assasins idea of a big line up, aka cb4 bargs rasho/hump. with calderon and ap thrown in, offense would be scary. Run a zone d. I think for all the hammering done to bargs here one thing overlooked is his passing ability. He sees the court well. next few games is the time to showcase the bench talent if a trade is to be made, but like it's been posted before, this squad very young and gonna be exciting in a few years

I like the bargs/bosh/rasho idea against half court teams, but they'd be too slow otherwise.
That would mean moon or parker sits, not sure about that.

I don't think bargs coming off the bench is an option. Don't really know why, but he's just unmotivated or something. Maybe it's a slap in the face to him. Better to play with calderon too of course, but even when tj was around he was bad coming off the bench.

Franchise, of course Bargs is comical to watch, because he's a BUST

While we're playing arm chair coach - heres my line up while Ford's out.
Center Rasho - Hump - Basten
4 Bosh - Bargani
3 Moon - Joey
2 Parker - Kapo - Dixon
1 Calderon - Delfino

Y'know something that's interesting, I never noticed that Calderon wears Garbajosa's wristbands

As a point of comparison, it was interesting to see phoenix take on utah, with nash not playing. Utah blew them out of the water, by 20 points. It wasn't that close because the almost the whole fourth was garbage time.

The suns shot almost THIRTY 3-point shots, their offense was completely perimter. They would take a shot, four utah players in the paint and not a sun to be seen for a rebound. The shot was a LOT of one-man shows, no passing plays. Ball movement, inside work, non-existent. I mean, they were awful. That and playing with diaw and stoudamire. Interesting too, is phoenix record against top western teams: 2-6.

What does it show? A PG is crucial to an offense. when your top PG is out, it ruins the flow of the game, and you can't just "textbook" in the next guy down the list and expect the same level of consistency.

I think Phoenix fans, although happy with a better recrd, are actually feeling pretty anxious at the depth of their team without Nash.

How much do the Raps depend on TJ? Apparently, quite a lot. Does that signify a lack of depth? No, I don't think so. It underlines the importance of the floor general for making the strategy. Maybe JC just does not communicate ebough with the troops. Maybe his slower tempo is not because that is as fast as he can go, but because of a lack of continuity between what he wants to do and what the players wants, so he slows it down. TJ goes breakneck speed because of CONFIDENCE.

Now, I am not a Marcian convert, but I think that TJ is essential for this team. When TJ comes back, so help me, if I read another "loser" tag given to this kid, who fights thru whatever he is dished, I will take a flamethrower to that poster.

Oh my, I swore to myself I would not get into this TJ Calderon thing but;
Pro Tj - TJ has the ability to get his shot in traffic and he wants to step up and take it at crunch time. He is virtually unstoppable when he is "feeling it"
Con TJ - Ford tends to see only certain teammates on the floor. When he starts one of his scoring runs, he can't seem to stop shooting which means other players (except for Bosh) begin to stand around and watch because they know that in those times it is the "TJ and Bosh show".
Because of his small stature some point guards post him up ( Kidd does it to him all the time). In addition to that , he is subject to being goated by experienced opposing point guards into trying to do the personal"one up" thing.
So in summary, It will be great when TJ learns to make the proper decisions between shooting and passing.In actual fact he has the ball skills to do what Tony Parker does for the Spurs but the decision process is not there yet. Calderon on the other hand is a true point guard in every sense but he does not have TJ's burning desire to take the shots in crunch time.

Never read anyone call TJ a "loser" on this site.
TJ is a key component to our team. But RT summed it up
"Con TJ - Ford tends to see only certain teammates on the floor. When he starts one of his scoring runs, he can't seem to stop shooting which means other players (except for Bosh) begin to stand around and watch because they know that in those times it is the "TJ and Bosh show".
Can't anyone make an honest assessment w/o being accused of hating TJ?.
The way I see it, Jose has filled in admirably, possibly better than TJ - what we miss with TJ down is a quality backup PG - our starter has been fine.

Tinman.......WELL SAID