Tip-In: The Sound of Revenge

In an ideal world, last night's game against the Nets shouldn't have been about making Carter feel like an ulcer. It should have been about the fact that the Nets are a threat to a hopeful Raptor division title. Rather, the game at hand should have been reason enough for Bosh and boys to play hard and come out with a win. But no, it's not an ideal world and Toronto will forever make Carter feel like a STD each and every time he comes to the ACC. That is Carter's plight and as his star continues to burn out, Raptors fans will breathe in the ashes of his demise and chant in unison the continued success of this team. I call like it is. No sugar. 29-24. 4.5 games. It's going to be a great weekend. Cheers.

For me the vince bashing is getting old. Lacking a competitive spirit does not make one a bad person not to mention we all have our issues. I'm fine with the booing and jeering and even a negative anecdote or two from the announcers, but leo and chuck were relentlessly sniping the entire game and really it made me embarrased as a raptor fan/canadian.

So vince handled things badly and was poison in the locker room, but the raptors organization made so many mind numbingly stupid moves (see flagrancy.com) leading up to all that, that one can see how his love was lost.

Anyways, not defending vince, I'm glad he's gone -and would have given him away for free - I'm just over him. And very glad that bosh took the high road and showed some maturity.

Great recap fellas.

How about when MoPete was trying to get the fans pumped in the fourth and was waving his arms? Then Vince started to laugh at him...when his team is trailing. It was like he was too cool to actually show some intensity and was ridiculing MoPete for trying to garner fan support. To me, that's just ridiculous and goes to show what Vince's character is made of.

I think to how Carter acted back in the Olympics when he grew his "fro" and basically acted like a "punk" and showing the "ugly American" is truly something that should not be put on display for others to see on such a grand scale. Last night was no different. The trading of VC and his "rebirth" in NJ is done. Period. I know I am not the only one who has grown so tired of the "ahhh, I've got a hangnail, I better roll around like I was shot" antics of Carter. His mockery of the MVP chants last night just prove what we all know. The colour yellow doesn't suit him and he knows that the Raps have made off better than the Nets. Although we suffered at the start the long term solution is clear. CB4 will have a better chance of being the league MVP and VC won't. Plain and simple.

Maybe CB4 can hire Vince back as an "advisor" when VC retires in 5 years.

I'm out!

Fresh 1

The Raptors can score and it is anchorMAN not anchorLADY, two irrefutable scientific facts. Last night was simply an awesome offensive display, albeit one against a team riddled with injuries. However, giving up 45 points to the law firm of Nachbar and Jones is worrysome at the very least. consistantly, Bargs, Garbs and various others (Joey G, as per usual) did terrible jobs at closing out on NJ's shooters. We aren't talking about two notorious slashers like, say, Ben Gordon or Kirk Heinrich here, this is Bostjan Nachbar and Eddie Jones, the former of the two would have difficulty cutting in line a the supermarker, let alone cutting to the basket with any resolve. Worrysome indeed.

On a brighter note, we did see last night a tantalizing performance by T.J. The Nets simply had no answer for his drive to the hoop then fadeaway for the two. He'll never be a tremendous outside shooter, given that the ball weighs nearly as much as his torso, but when he wants to, the lane is always his for the taking.

All in all, you could not ask for a better first "half" of the season.

And finally, I'm curious to know how people feel about Vince's HOF chances. On one hand he has, when the mood strikes him right, been a dominant player in this league for the better part of the past decade and should continue to be for a few more seasons at least. However on the other hand, his inclusion into the hall of fame would be an affront to any and everyone who is already in the Hall who cared enough to show up night in, night out.

umm, Casey...did you mean Eddie House?

being at the game last night, watching vince do his thing, I couldn't help but think: has such talent on a human ever been so wasted?

he can beat anyone one on one. anyone. he can jump over grown men. (probably two of them if he wanted to.) he probably shoots better with 3 or 4 hands in his face than at the line. he's just an incredible basketball player. it's just really, really sad to watch him waste it.

I'm done with booing him. he doesn't even deserve that anymore. his plight will be to one day look back and think 'what if I'...

as for the game: oddly enough, when the game ended I was blown away to look up at the score board and see 120 points. to me the game looked sloppy and boring. the raps played horrible defence. horrible.

I hate when they play up or down to their competition. last night, they played down. the nets had no business being in this game, what. so. ever.

Glad to hear CB4's comments after the game about VC mocking the MVP chants. Chris barely gave them any mention at all. This guy is mature beyond his years.

VC did a lot to bring attention to B-ball in Canada but I'm glad he's gone. A dysfunctional organization plus an All Star player who decided to mail it in did not make a championship team. However, PayMoPete is right, the Raptors organization made a lot of bad moves.

When the votes come in for VC to join the HOF he might just be remembered as the dunker (i.e. Shawn Kemp) and will have to spend his twilight years on the outside looking in.

Glad to see the Raptors win. Gotta work on that defense though. At least Sam M knows this. Can't wait until th playoffs begin.

Yes, Eddie House, my bad. Too many Eddies!

I don't think Carter deserves to be in the Hall...if it took some players that long (Dominique) then no way he should be...

"Revenge is a dish best served cold" – and Vince is feeling the wrath. Although one of the most athletically gifted players in the league, Vince’s demeanor on the court yesterday clearly illustrates his lack of love for the game of basketball. Instead of leading his team with a serious mental focus, Carter felt it more important to mock the crowd and mock Morris Peterson for getting his team involved, smirking throughout the game. Carter’s lack of passion for the game was clearly deteriorating following his departure from the Raptors. As challenge and focus fuels the fire of NBA greats, Vince’s laissez- faire approach to the game is his biggest downside. If he had half of the passion in which Bosh, Bryant, Garnett & Duncan possess, he would be a player remembered not just on athleticism, but passion for the game. As Franchise clearly stated, "his true colours will shine through" regardless of his team being good, bad, or ugly. Clearly his tenure with the New Jersey nets is on the decline, and his potential suitors better be weary. Although the Raptors have toiled for 4 years, the trade doesn’t look so bad after all. With our current team cohesion, and the leadership of Bryan Colangelo (GM of the year) the sky is the limit.

no way VC will be a hall of famer. no chance. once he got his money he packed it in. 7 years + MAX SALARY for him - and nothing for the fans.

as long as VC is still living off the deal he got from the Raptors, he should continue to be given a hostile reception at the ACC.

I am never going to get over booing Vince. I will boo him until the day he retires. And most imporantly, the booing actually effects his play! He's clearly rattled everytime he comes back to play Toronto (except or that 1 time when he torched us).

Every home team fan is obligated to make it as hard as possible on opposing players. If Vince can't take the booooos, then we should boo him more and more.

My last dying breath will be "Booooooo Vince. Booooooo (cough. cough.) booo ......

I think some people have already eluded to this point, but I wanted to make my own criticism of Carter clear: the problem with Vincey isn't that he didn't like the MVP chant nor that he laughed at MoPete when he tried to pump up the crowd--the problem is that this guy is so unfocused on the court that he has time to think about all this junk.

Can you imagine Garbajosa or any other reputable player mouthing anything at any point in any game???

As an aside . . . many times last night I was hoping Oakley would jump from the stands and pop Vincey, that would have made me feel a lot better. Of course, then he would have stopped acting like an idiot and probably would have scored 40.

What a dope.

in vince's defense, you could argue that the compounding knee problems broke his spirit. something he had no control over. nonetheless, any Canadian who argues that the fans at the ACC should be more respectful of Vince is just being too Canadian. we got walked allover by Vince. are we REALLY that passive? no problem eh.

we let a man with a gimp knee walk all over us...

How many cases of "Jumper's Knee" has Vince had since he left?

And has anyone else ever suffered from "Jumper's Knee"? Anywhere? Ever?

I was listening to the Swirks show today on Fan590. They had this NBA analyst (don't know his name, but he's a regular on the Swirsk) discussing the Raptors and any possible trades involving them. He said that Calderon is THE guy other teams are interested in and that B.C. could get something really good for him and possibly Mo Pete. He said Calderon is basically a starting PG coming off the bench. He was mentioning possibly getting Darko or some other legit center for him.

What do you guys think about that? Can you foresee any trade where we give up Jose?? I can't...at least not for Darko....

To be honest, the reason the Raptors are so much fun to watch right now is the way they move the ball around so crisply and their teamwork in general. Bosh is playing great, but it doesn't end with him. When I think MVP, I think guys who carry their team. That'd be Kobe, Wade and the like. Well, I guess you can make a good case for Nash, and he's surrounded by great talent. Without him, though, it all falls apart.

On another topic, what's going to happen to Jersey? Carter can opt out and it's possible he won't be back or that he might even be traded. Kidd's not getting any younger. RJ's solid, but he's always getting hurt. Their future isn't that great, even if they did steal Marcus Williams at #21.

The way I see it is VC thought the game was all about Him I credit the Raptor fans for getting under VC's skin so much He thought it was! I say congratulations to the fans (the 6th man) keep it up if it helps them win

Jose has to stay. I would not tampter with this team this year. Let them jell and go as far as possible. It does not have to happen this year. Look at the standings only 4 games out of 1st place and not far from 2nd overall. Let the team go for the season unless U can get a Dwight Howard (no not likely)

I live in the US and I am moving back home and I will tell you everytime NJ Nets play in Toronto I will be at the game and I will be amongst the BOO Birds, we made Vince Carter into who he is today, and as long as he is in this leauge we will do everything to wipe out his status, don't stop Toronto fans!!

Ok.. I'm ashamed to have been a VC fan. Now a true blue CB4 supporter. He is absolutely the best face of the Raps franchise ever.

But the question is.. who is/was the second best franchise player ever to be the face of Raptors? Someone who can come back into the arena now and still be proud of.

I mean.. Toronto boos a lot of their former Raps (VC, T-Mac, Chauncy Billups, Kenny Anderson, Alonzo Mourning, Damon, Camby, Doug Christie, Davis - man we boo a lot of people)

Nominations for the second best face of the franchise?

JYD, Popeye Jones, Alvin Williams, Morris Peterson, Zan Tabak?

VC, VC, VC... the reason we hate him: he was the most frustrating player to watch - possibly in the history of the NBA. You can always argue that watching a stiff like Arujo in the post is "frustrating" because he is a NBDL-level talent at best and shouldn't even be in the game. But when you have a guy like Vince who has shown the ability to take over games like only Kobe, MJ, Iverson, and Wade have done in the last 10-15 years... you're always left wondering why he only plays with 100% effort for maybe 2 minutes a game.

There have been many other players in this category (JR Rider, Keon Clark, etc.), but never a player with the potential that Vince showed he could reach. He acutally is a better 3-pt shooter than MJ or Kobe, and much better than AI or Wade... and probably a better leaper as well. His other skills are on par with those guys in almost every area except for defense. Although -- we even saw that he is capable of playing incredibly good defense to shut down the other team's best player at least a few times -- but only for 1 play at a time.

To sum it up: VC may have had the best combination of skills of any player I've seen... but he only chose to peak for a couple minutes/game, and the other 46 minutes of frustration ends up making you hate the guy for wasting your time (and money if you bought tickets) again and again.

I can honestly say that the best basketball performance I've ever seen live was VC against the Sixers in Game 3 of that 2nd round playoff series (when he hit I think 6 threes in the first half and went for 50+)... but that night seems like an fluke when compared against the hundreds of games where you saw Vince peak for 2 minutes then fake an injury and whine to the refs as the game inevitably slipped away.

BC - are you nuts ? stating that"But when you have a guy like Vince who has shown the ability to take over games like only Kobe, MJ, Iverson, and Wade have done in the last 10-15 years." you have elevated him to a level he's never approached.

All this talk of Vince. Bah - I hate Alonzo Mourning waaaaay more then Vince. I'm fine with Vince being gone - the Raptors are the better team now so we won the deal. The Score did a nice six degrees of separation thing and showed everything we got for Vince in the long run and I'm fine with it. Love the "Quitter" jerseys though.

Alonzo screwed this franchise more then anyone else. I boo him when I see him on TV blocking shots and wearing his ring. Even Antonio Davis had the decency to come back and play here.

That said - congrats to the raps, Sam Mitchell and BC for a great first half of the season. The league has taken notice of this team - and no I would not trade anyone on this roster at the moment (maybe fred jones). Let them gell for another year and look out.

Tinman -- I would still argue that Vince has dominated segments of games (say for 2-5 minute spurts) on par with Kobe or MJ. The 2nd round Game 3 vs. Philly was an example.

The difference is that he's never kept that peak performance up for more than a few minutes at a time, let alone for a full game, a full season, or a full career like MJ. Since basketball games are 48 minutes, these peak spurts are easily outweighed by the rest of VC's lazy/uninspired moments that fill the rest of each game.

I guess you'd have to call those peaks the "potential", and the rest would be the "reality".

hey - do we have room for a 6 time NBA champ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2767861

Pippen wants back.

Ha, I don't think Pippen has much left in the tank. However, I'd be afraid of what Pippen could contribute if he went back to the Lakers. If Phil Jackson can make a player out of Etan Thomas or Maurice Evans, then Pippen could come back to be an all-star (just kidding, but seriously). I don't however, see Pippen coming back. Unless he was really getting sick of being diminished by the light of Jordan.

On the fox sports site today they have a list of possible trades in the NBA and a list of likely destinations. Toronto features prominently in this discussion.

The names that are being bandied about as coming to Toronto are as follows:
-Nazr Mohammad
-Zydrunas Ilgauskus
-Larry Hughes
-Jamal Magloire/Juan Dixon
-James Posey
-Carlos Delfino
-Dale Davis

My question is (assuming in each case that we're giving up one or both of MoPete and Calderon), do any of these possible moves make the team any better, either in the short or long term? Even if Mo ends up walking, I think I'd still rather have his cap space then any of these guys above.

Casey,

Agreed...I read that article, and none of the proposed trades make any sense whatsoever from a Toronto standpoint...and a bunch of them probably wouldn't even work. The trade of Ilgauskas in Cleveland for Calderon would probably require Rasho to go back the other way and I don't see the Cavs wanting him. Then, the guy says Nazr Mohammed would really help the Raps, in exchange for MoPete. I don't see it...Mohammed might help the rebounding, but with Rasho still arond, all he'd be doing is taking minutes from Bargs. Craziness...I think the author was just randomly throwing teams around with no thought as to whether these trades made any sense to the receiving team.

Vince Vince Vince. Yall need to get over him already. I agree that he deserves a certain amount of contempt because he admitted he was dogging it near the end but anyone who has followed the Raps for awhile knows that the franchise screwed him first. They told him he could have a say in who the Raps hired as coach and GM then literally did everything to exclude him from the discussion. Instead of drafting a half decent player that could help the team they drafed Arrujo. He was patient and tried to give it all a chance but got sick of seeing the team make mistake after mistake (hello Rafer Alston). I don't blame the guy for wanting out, I just think he could have handled it more professionally.
I also agree Mourning screwed the franchise but they established long ago that they were willing to be suckers (anyone remember how Hakim got his jersey retired by Houston when Toronto went there and he was still on their payroll, talk about a slap in the face).
As for trades, some of the players mentioned could help. Delfino is intriguing even though he hasn't shown anything yet beyone a game or two. Giving up Mo for Delfino wouldn't be a bad deal as long as we dont have to take back Mohammed or davis and they throw in a 2nd round pick. If they were they probably would have already pulled the trigger by now. As for giving up Calderon I say Nuts to that. I like TJ but Calderon's game fits the Raptors new style better (which is why the team usually looks better with Calderon at the point). TJ has a greater upside but I would rather trade TJ for someone like Andre Miller and a pick then Calderon for what little the team could get for him right now (yes teams are interested but no one is going to give you anything more than an expiring contract for a backup pg even one who should be starting).

Do not think we are in the market for a trade. MoP and Jose name are always thrown around but I realley don't think we'd get equal value in return. Plus why mess with this team now - everything is progressing nicely lets see how the season ends. I would be more than comfortable having the same team, one year older at the beginning of next season.

Trade Caldreon? all of you are crazy. This guy is our backup point guard that could be starting on a lot of teams in the league and is only making $1.8 M this year and $2.5 next year. Trade him? no way!

Calderone is not untouchable. I doubt BC does anything this season, but in the summer Jose could be bait.

As for Vince... I stopped booing, but still respect those who do. We would not be where we are today with Vince and Jalen, even if they were healthy and trying. While the past three years were painful, I am content knowing that we would not be where we are today had we not traded Vince for less than nothing.

Just gettin' ready to watch our Raps' rookies take part in the All-Star rookie match and hoping Bargs throws it down in Luther Head's grill for taking Calderon' spot. Interesting about the Calderon and Peterson trade ideas...we've mulled them over here too and will talk more about them in the next few days but we agree...none of those guys make sense unless it gets us back into at least the mid-first round of the draft. Team's rolling along fine, let's see how things go...

As for Vince...interesting point by Papa as a final thought. Any other players in the history of the league who wasted such talent? The name Shawn Kemp comes to mind but even he had a number of consistently dominant seasons prior to joining the Michael Sweetney Club...

Just finished watching the rookie-sophomore game, much of it on fast-forward (yecch!). I won't even begin to comment on the ugly-as-expected gameplay, but some other impressions...

Ugliest shoes: Jordan Farmar. Looked like he was wearing yellow socks with black sandals.

Ugliest uniform: Paul Millsap's Utah powder blues. Yikes. (Aside: how could so many teams have passed on drafting this guy, including us with PJ at 35? He led the NCAA in rebounding 3 straight years, but his game is so much more than just boards!)

Lamest uniform: Marcus Williams in the Nets red-and-dark-gray Raptor uni ripoff.

Lamest anything: The utterly RIDICULOUS piped in super-excited crowd noise that never let up.

On another note, re: Vince and the wasted talent discussion, Roy Tarpley comes to mind... Though one could argue that substance abuse is a disease whereas Vince's waste of talent is just apathy and thus less forgiveable...?