Tip-In, Toronto Raptors Post-Game: One for TJ

Hump is the man I have been saying that since preseason a year ago.

Dixon???does he not have a role with this team anymore? He will have little trade value unless He gets pt

Nice to see hump playing his role again. We had some nice nights like this out of him last year and for his size he makes a better center than bargnani.

To bad for dixon and JG, but it's nice to see the rotation tightened up for the time being. It's kinda funny that the game I thought bargs had really figured out how to stay on the floor, boxing out, rebounding and defense was the last time raps played dallas. And last night, 0 rebs, bad defense, out of position all night. Hopefully it's just temporary, the knee or whatever, but it seems right now like this guy doesn't know what he's got.

trade Dixon to Miami for a draft pick. Surely JD would be more consistent scoring wise than Luke Jackson (although I am happy that Luke got hooked up somewhere). Seriously, if Miami keeps playing this way, a 2nd rd draft might come in around 30, not a bad pickup for a guy not getting any pt. Once you got that pick, try to trade up later...

I liked the way the offence ran with Martin on the floor. He carried ball to half court Dalfino ran the half court offence. Very effective!

Delfino is a fine 3rd point guard when needed. I liked seeing him handling the ball a bit.

I'm still laughing that we go Hump for Hoffa - just for that comment alone!

Just a good win - thats victories over the Rockets and the Mavs in a 4 day span.
7 outta next 8 are on the road starting with a home game against Pacers. I am aiming for at least 4 wins from there which will give us a record of 17-14 going into January, when our schedule gets easier.
Sam figurred out a way to rest Jose when TJ is out, put in DM but let Delfino handle the ball.

We all know that Wednesday's is Hump Day..What a game. Told you I see a W against Dallas. What's up with the REF's that do the Toronto games. Eddie Jones should have been given a Flagrant 2 foul last night against DMart. It was the same kind of foul that took out TJ only diff is DMart was not airbourne. That play should be reviewd and he should be suspended. How about Kapono, Love his toughness and his play. The Raps really have a very solid team from top to bottom I love watching them play its exciting....Lets go get another W tomorrow boys...Get well soon TJ but take your time don't rush back...Jose has your back...Raps4Life baby.

at this point i'm concluding that bargnani isn't a centre at all, i doubt he ever will be. he seems like an over-sized 3 to me (which is not a bad thing).

i'd be sad to see either TJ or Jose traded (it's so amazing to have two premium PG's on this team after having nothing for so long), but if one of them is traded it should be for a top-level 2 or 5.

First post.. i'm in HK, and i can't wait to get back to TO to watch the raps live again, instead of the game in 6... anyways.. it's nice to see our offense starting to flow again, case in point: the Bosh>Moon>Jose>AP dump down to Rasho baby hook to finish is what I love seeing. Delfino's sick bounce pass to Kap was just great! Almost home!

Let's go Raps!

Gdon - welcome from Hong Kong. Toronto had a couple plays like the one you described last night, just beautiful ball movement. Forgot to mention about Kapono last night, great shooting from him at key moments and had to laugh when reportedly pre-game he was joking about himself as being Willis Reed in terms of playing through an injury ha ha...

Love to see Toronto keep both TJ and Jose as well but someone needs to tell Chuck and Leo the facts here. Again last night Leo started in on the "see, this is why there shouldn't be a point guard controversy, both are great players." We know that part Leo, but you're ignoring the salary cap situation which might dictate that we just can't afford to keep both and guys like Delfino. Actually...maybe I'll send an email to Chuck right now...

Why is everyone so afraid of the cap. I think MLSE will give BC the OK to go over the Cap To keep Jose and TJ on the Raps if they are seriously thinking of becoming a contender in the East. HOw can Boston afford, Pierce, Allan and The Big Ticket. All these guys are making over 15 mil a year. So Raps can do the same. Just a thought.

My how winning changes our comments- it's all positive till the next loss. So I guess I'll be the bad guy, Bosh is a fantastic player. He needs time once he receives the ball in the post to decide what his move needs to be. The time he takes + the fact that 80% of the time -he is going to shoot, seems to lull the others into becoming spectators. I now believe that Bosh will always need that time and that it is not a bad thing- the others need to make an effort not to watch but go for the rebound. Raps can get away with watching as long as Bosh is shooting a high percentage but on the nights he's not, good teams will make them pay.

As for Bargs, for some reason the Raps are not tapping in on all that potential. Other than setting the high screen and role, its like he's lost out there. The sooner they get him on track, the better. It seems his game is off because he's rushing too much - needs to relax and let the game come to him.

Rt - People are more positive about a win than a loss. You figure that out all by yourself?

Hump is the man...I agree. His play this season when he is in a game is nothing short of energy, and knocking guys around and BOARDING the hell out of the glass! Who was that TV interviewer who asked him that STOOOPID question?? Great answer Hump! Don't know if any of you youtubed the NBA top 10 from Tuesday but there was Hump making #3 with his rise up over Josh Smith!!

Bargs....where ya been big man? Hey someone get our Italian Ass. GM to talk some patience into the young man. Jeeez dude, why you have to be in a panic everytime you get the ball?? You're trying to do way too much and too fast for that 7 -foot body of yours to catch up! RELAX...go get it tattooed on the back of your right hand so when you are shooting it will remind you!

TJ gonna tae some time....we'll wait cuz stuff like this happens. What I LOVED the other night was Sam running down the court (like he was still playin) and getting in EVRYONE'S face about the hit. LOVED IT! His speech to the media after...priceless. The man is nothing but a CLASS ACT! It's stuff like that which makes those around and playing for him realize how much this team means to him PERSONALLY! I actually thought Sammy wanted to "go" at Butch there for a split second....but he realized that TJ was more important. Not stuff you ever want to see (like Garbo's injury) but in a sport like this CRAZY stuff happens.

I don't think the league should suspend Horford for the incident, as you could see by his expression that he didn't mean it and realized right away what he had done. I mean he went and spent 2 hours with TJ at the hospital after just to make sure he was ok. Class act from a Rookie! So David Stern should not make an issue of this and just let it go. There was not malicious intent and ther was no fight....easy decision right big Dave??

Anyway, Pacers on the docket tomorrow, some more good D on O'neal and some of the others and we should see another W in the column....

I'm out!

Fresh1

I think what Franchise is saying is that we're over the cap now - it's the luxury tax that you can bet MLSE wants no part of...

KG..$23.75MIL, PIERCE $16.3 MILM, ALLEN $16.0 MIL BOSTON TOTAL SALARY IS $74.9..Raptors total salary is $62.3 mil. NOW will someone explain why we can't keep TJ and Jose even if someone offer Jose the same salary as TJ...Franchise maybe you can explian, Dose Boston have a higher Salary cap than the Raptors?

AP is not looking like the AP of old. BC said something of a groin injury that AP may be playing through on Fan 590 yesterday.

Delfino is fast becoming my favorite Raptor. Too bad we couldn't lock him up earlier in the year.

Did Moon get to go to the line last night? Whats up with that?

Raps4life,
The issue is not the Salary cap as there are many loopholes to have a payroll above the cap in the NBA. The issue is the dollar for dollar "Luxury Tax" that may prevent us from carrying two point guards making more than 8 mil a season. The luxury tax threshold is usually roughly 5% to 15% above the cap and changes every year based on revenue intake. Maple Leafs sports and entertainment and more precisely their owners (Teachers Pension Fund etc.) has stated on many occasions they are not willing to pay the luxury tax.

Fresh 1,
"RELAX...go get it tattooed on the back of your right hand so when you are shooting it will remind you!" PRICELESS! I swear, sometimes its like Bargnani has a epileptic fit when he gets the ball. He tries to shoot, pumpfake and drive all at the same time…. Breath in, breath out… relax. Not too worried, this will come with time and confidence.

The Humpster stepped up big time last night. Man, if he can play even at 75% of that on a consistant basis the Raps will be just so much better. The truly amazing thing is that he is only 23 and he is cheap for at least another season or two.
The Teachers will not pay the luxury tax. For all the people who think we should keep Ford and Calderon, you need to get over it because unless Calderon takes less money to stay (and I doubt he will), or they unload Rasho, they will not be able to keep calderon and Delfino. It is that simple. What the Raps need now is an owner who is more concerned with winning than their profit margin. As there are not a lot of people in Canada who have an interest in Bball and have deep pockets, we will just have to make do.

Oh my lord, all you doom-sayers like McGateway, MAS, and yes, FRANCHISE, need to check yourselves.

Who the hell says the Raps can't re-up Delfino and Calderon? Ya think BC would like to see next season, if TJ goes down (yet again), having Martin playing 20 minutes, Dixon playing 20 minutes, and Delfino at the point for 8 minutes (or some equivalent if the 3 of them are off the team)?!?

And ya think BC won't go to the Teacher's Pension Fund and Peddie and the Board and anyone else and say: "Look, the Raps brought in $XX million dollars because of our 2/3rd round playoff exit, our starting PG is quite injury prone, and WE WILL TRADE RASHO'S $8.4 MILLION EXPIRING CONTRACT (and/or Garbo's expiring contract, and/or AP's expiring contract, and/or Joey's expiring contract, and/or Baston's expiring contract) TO GET SALARY CAP RELIEF, so let's re-up Jose for $8 million and Carlos for $6 million?" Didn't the Suns do the exact same thing by trading Kurt Thomas at the beginning of the season?

Ya think the Teacher's Pension Fund et al won't go for that, CONSIDERING THE RAPS WILL ONLY HAVE 5 PLAYERS UNDER CONTRACT (Bosh, TJ, Kapono, Bargs, Hump) AT $30 MILLION DOLLARS (about $35 million under the cap) FOR 2009-2010"!?!?!?

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm

All this talk about trading Jose for [[insert low-cost high-upside swingman even though Kapono, Delfino and Parker are better than any Childress-equivalents out there]] is, simply put, crap. And honestly, reading these posts I am thankful BC is our GM and not you.

P.S. If Jose IS traded or leaves as an unmatched RFA, don't you think BC will shell out $5+ million for an above-average back-up to our INJURY-PRONE starting PG? So why not pay $2-3 million more for Jose?!? Seriously.

Jjdynomite,

You’re thinking to small… I’m sure using your numbers/arguments and a really impressive powerpoint presentation Colangelo could get the MLSE board to go out and get Kobe and Tim Duncan as well…

But seriously, being realistic isn’t necessarily being pessimistic. It has been stated many times that MLSE will not pay the tax. Plus, even if they were, does it make sense to spend 16 or 17 milion dollars BEFORE THE LUXARY TAX for one position? Especially when there are other obvious holes to fill on this team and you are going to have to pay Bargnani in a couple years? If we were defending the NBA championship or made it to the finals last year, then maybe… But this team is still a long ways away. I love both PGs as much as the next guy, but when you look at it objectively, unless Calderone takes 50 cents on the dollar for his value (you never know) we can’t keep both. I’m sure BC recognizes this and that’s why I’m glad he’s running the team and not some sentimental homer.

MAS and McGateway, I think you both nailed it right on. Regardless of cap space down the road JJ, we can't assume that a) Rasho can be dealt (or that the Raptors will even want to deal him for that matter) or that b) the teacher's pension crew is willing to pay the luxury tax. BC can preach all he wants to them about the team's success on and off the court but the bottom line is that they are the ones with the final say.

Look at the Phoenix Suns.

Their owner is absolutely anti-luxury tax even though his team has been one of the top clubs in the league the past few years, sells out nearly every game, has made it far into the post-season on a regular basis of late, and is currently the eighth most valuable NBA franchise at an estimated worth of $449 million! It really all comes down to these type of gatekeepers and business decisions that may have nothing to do with the team itself.

Therefore we're just going to have to wait and see how this plays out. I'm not saying it's impossible for Toronto to keep both Jose and Carlos but I think it's naive on our part if we assume BC can magically usurp the powers that be and have a payroll which results in the team paying a dollar for dollar tax.

I agree JJ that BC would not like to go into next season, with a Darrick Martin playing 20 minutes etc, but it also doesn't necessarily mean he decides to pay x dollars for Jose. Perhaps he CAN get a cheaper alternative, especially a player who's been undervalued in his eyes. He's been superb at doing this throughout his GM career and while I'd love to see both TJ and Jose here long-term, I just feel he may need to get creative come trade deadline.

But my caveat of course is that hey, it is the Legomaster we're talking about here. Who would have ever thought we'd get something of value for Hoffa (let alone be able to trade him for that matter) so perhaps he can clear the necessary cap space to make things all work out.

Not to mention we have roko ukic not only waiting in the wings, but getting valuable experience and pt in europe. And we'll have him on a rookie contract.

I'm no contract expert so perhaps someone here can fill me in on whether this is possible.

Could Calderon sign a deal back-loads his contract. As in he takes less money next year, and significantly more in 2009 and beyond.

Does this happen?

MAS & Franchise, I appreciate your rational responses. However, Franchise, you know what "naive" is, naive is spending a whole post (2 days ago) surmising a J-Smoove for Jose trade when Josh is going to get $12+ million for the next 5-6 years. Talk about a cap hit.

Follow-up points:

1. Let's go back to the Suns as a point of comparison. If I was their owner I'd be pissed too. Why? 'Cuz Diaw, who was only undervalued when Amare missed the season, is making $9 MILLION for the next 5 SEASONS (yup, until 2011-2012). As well, Marcus Banks, who is worse than Juan Dixon, had a decent contract year, and is now making $4+ MILLION a year for the next 4 SEASONS of garbage time play. So yeah, if I was Robert Sarver, I'd tell D'Antoni that he fucked up as a Coach/GM, and then hired Kerr and asked him to dump Kurt and 2 first round picks to get under the tax.

The Raps are hardly in such dire straights. And I personally would even be totally fine with BC trading a guaranteed first rounder in the 20s (the draft slot where the Raps will hopefully end up) along with Rasho (and the other expiring contracts I mentioned) and resign Jose and Carlos. A team that wins together should stay together. Look at the Spurs.

2. axl, maybe Raptor fans of two years ago would pine away for Ukic but I think we all want the Raps to represent the East starting from 2009-2010 (I can concede the conference to the Celts this year and next as Bargs et al mature). And that's not gonna happen with an injury-plagued PG with an NBA rookie/sophomore back-up. And there is NO guarantee Ukic's skills would develop like Jose's, he might end up a Euro-only guy who fails in the NBA like Andriuskevicius. That's way to big an unknown for a title-challenging team.

3. Yes, MazelTov, Jose's contract can definitely be structured to be cheaper in 2009-2010 and rise exponentially in following years. Hell, the Bulls even did it the OPPOSITE way, as Hinrich's getting $11 million this season and it scales down to $8 million in (2011-2012); Paxson did this in order to fit Deng and Gordon under the cap (oops). Since Jose is an RFA, BC and Jose can structure the contract anyway they want, as long as it takes into account Jose's market value.

---

In summary, I truly feel many of you are undervaluing the ***combination*** of TJ and Jose. They provide quite different looks at the 1, just like, to use the best case scenario, Nash and Barbosa do for the Suns(combined salaries, $17 million), or to use a "poor man's" example, Andre Miller and Louis Williams do for the Sixers (combined salaries, $10 million, although Louis is on a rookie contract and will be making a lot more scrilla next year). I'm sure I can think of other examples, maybe Fisher and Farmar for the Lake Show? If TJ and JC were clones of each other (i.e. both pass-first or both dribble-and-drive), I can see your points, but since they aren't, let's just wait and see what BC does. He hasn't made one bad move yet. An I'd still have picked Bargs over Roy, Gay or Aldridge (the boy has been injured for fruck's sake, give him some time).

Did someone even remotely compare the Spurs to the Raps?!?!

In two years, ustation, there is no reason why the Raps and Spurs can't be compared in terms of overall skill level.

And it was the notion for CONTINUITY that I was comparing them. That jettisonning Jose after his first contract with the team, WHILE the Raps own his rights, would be a bad move.

jj - I think roko's a bit of an upgrade on darrick martin, with potential to develop.

Definitely not "pining away" for him.

Well I'm the first to praise european prospects when they deserve it, but i'm not sold at all on Ukic's potential. He is playing quite better this season, but in my opinion he is still far away from the potential you should expect for a projected future NBA backup PG. Still better than Martin, though :-)

al horford was suspended for one game today...not to sure he deserved it, but thats what happened

Some Salary Cap info

(numbers for this year)

Salary Cap
= 55.63m

Luxury tax
= 67.865m

Toronto's total salaries for this season (hoopshype)

=62,312,141

Total Guaranteed Salaries for next season
=55,090,685 (their data does not seem to include Hump's extension, so we add another 3m for

=58,090,685 with 11 players under contract.

The salary cap and the luxury tax are both dependent on league revenues. Recent history has had both increasing each year, but this year attendance is down around the league so I would argue that if there is an increase, it will be less than usual. This is all speculation, but for the purposes of settling this, let's say they both go up 2 million. (last year it went up 2.5 million, I know they don't increase uniformly, but whatever).

So for next year, the cap is at (roughly) 57.5m with the luxury tax near 70m. With guaranteed money at 58m+ already for 11 players, we can say goodbye to the cap, not that it matters, 80% of the league is over the cap, the REAL cap is the luxury tax because going over it adds up quickly.

So we get to the important part: can we keep Jose and Carlos. While we can argue until we are blue in the face about the merits/necessity of going over the luxury tax, I have seen nothing that indicates the ownership is ready to commit to that and I don't blame them. In my opinion going over the tax threshold is for championship caliber teams only. Except the Knicks, because Isiah is an idiot.

Back on point: doing our (very rough) math, we have 12 million to play with. Assuming Jose gets 8m (which is market value) we have 4m left for Delfino....or do we? One thing most people forget is that Jamario is going to be needing a new contract as well, AND we'll need a third-string PG, AND potentially another big/swingman to round out a 15 player roster. (Martin are Dixon are gone) This is where that extension to Joey Graham really starts to be annoying, because it eats up 2.5 million, money that could have gone towards “end of the bench” guys. (Which Joey is, but we could have THREE end of the bench guys for 2.5m)

Looking at market values, I think contracts in the neighborhood of around 3.5/4m are realistic for both Delfino and Moon. The free-agent market will be relatively busy next year, so hopefully that will drive contracts for role-players such as these down. However, even with bargain contracts, we are still over the tax threshold.

After looking at the numbers, it is my opinion that it will be VERY hard to keep all three (without unloading somebody), but two of them is very possible.
Whether or not we should try to re-sign these guys is a totally different argument, I just wanted to lay out the actual facts of the cap situation so that people can talk realistically about what can be done.

Addendum

I have assumed “market value”contracts, and this does not take into account the possibility of Jose, Carlos, or Jamario giving us “discounts”(a la TD in San Antonio), obviously I can't calculate how much goodwill is worth, but each of these players basically owes this franchise their career (brought Jose over and stuck with him during a rough first year, Delfino was going to leave the NBA after this season, gave Moon a shot at his dream) so maybe BC can bring them all home.

Love this site, watch the arguements, comentary and discussions daily. First season on this blog and it's made being a fan so much more enjoyable. Get pissed off reading thought, and have to post
Bargs is our second best player, with the potential to be our best. however fans here live and die by game to game, and dont offer the support. Bargs is not a center. Bosh would be shitty if we made him play point. Bargs is a 3, sometimes 4, but needs to be on the court with bosh for this team to take it to the next level. You cant push a square peg through a round whole. It's unfortunate we have so many 3's, but that doesnt change where bargs should be.
Ford and calderon both great, and compliment eachother. If you have to take one, as a POINT guard, take calderon
delfino and kapono both great additions.
Joey g is a lost cause. Trade.
Hump needs more playing time
Get what you can for Rasho now
Wish ap was five years younger

freezing rap fan...I tend to agree with the use of Bargs,he is definitly out of sinc,give the kidd a chance.I like using Hump and Rasho...and bring Bargs back with Bosh.....If everybody is insisting that he will be one of our cornerstones...give the soph.some time,and build up his confidence....look what its done for Hump....Thats real stupid of me because its come at the expense of Bargs.....thats why Smitch and BC make the big bucks,and I'm watching from my seat...

Styling Assassin, thank you very much for putting some numbers to the discussion even if they're primarily intelligent guesses. It's nice to actually have a rough idea of the $$ that's in play and how that affects the possibility of signing our RFAs

Re the Salary structure 70 mil Lux is about right with about 12 mil to spend. Moon is signed for next year @ near 700K. Leaves Jose and Carlos to be signed as BC's ist priority, as well as a 1st round draft pick. That's why he makes the big bucks as GM/Pres.