The Great Debate - Some Final Words on the CV Smooth Trade

by RaptorsHQ - Archives on Jul 5, 2006 10:08 AM EDT

The feelings of most of readers of late have been very strong when it comes to the Charlie Villanueva trade. Although the RapsHQ poll so far shows a majority in favour of the trade, there is definitely some strong sentiment in the opposite direction judging by various comments that we've received. Some of these may be due to a perceived of lack of return in the trade, the idea that Toronto dealt one half what could have been Toronto's "twin towers" for years ahead, or for entirely different reasons altogether.

I have taken some time to really debate this deal and try and figure out how I really feel. Originally I was strongly opposed to it but now appear to have mellowed (or maybe just acknowledged that Charlie is now Bucks property)however I still contend that that this was not a great deal for the Raptors. Not because TJ Ford does not have the ability to be a very good or possibly even great PG, but because the team should have obtained more.

How much more? Hard to say.

A second round pick? A first in '08? (An 07 pick would have ended negotiations I have no doubt) Or maybe the rights to Ersan Ilyasova?

All I can think about is how Charlie's value seems higher today that TJ's. CV Smooth had a solid rookie year where he came second in voting to someone who arguably could have been on the All-Star team, scored 48 points in a single night, had more than his fair share of great highlights and at times showed flashes of brilliance. By the season's end Charlie's name was being bandied about NBA circles as a great new big man in the mold of the new NBA - a scorer from inside and out who could play multiple positions. On top of all of these great attributes, Charlie's production per dollar was and will continue to be sky high as he plays through his rookie contract. In fact, unless Charlie becomes a dominant force in the NBA you could argue that his value and production per dollar will never be as high as it is right now and will be for at least the next two seasons.

That being said, Villanueva has some parts of his game that need work. Defense is obviously the first and consistency the second. Neither of these flaws are unique to a rookie as most of the time first year players need to improve in these areas. And furthermore, in spite of these, Charlie is a great building block with tremendous NBA "upside."

In return the Raps obtained their first true point guard since Damon Stoudamire. It's been too long since the Raps have had a solid presence at the 1. Undoubtedly this team needed a starting point guard as even the most casual fan knew that Calderon was not ready for starters' minutes. He may never be. That's why making a deal to acquire a starting point guard was necessary...and TJ Ford is definitely no spare part.

Coming out of Texas he was highly viewed in the eyes of many and rumour has it former GM Glenn Grunwald had to be talked by someone into taking Bosh over Ford in the '03 draft as Grunwald liked Ford's game that much. (As an aside if this is true, that "someone" deserves a raise!) TJ is an extremely fast point guard with well above average passing skills. He's also young, despite what seems like a long career. He is only 24.

Like Charlie, TJ has areas of his game he needs to work on. First and foremost his jump shot. TJ, even in his college days, was not a great shooter. In his rookie year he shot below 40 per cent, and this past season 41.. These numbers do not strike fear into any defender and until that number improves the opposition will be able to sit back and defend against his first step, as a result reducing its effectiveness. Ford did show however a strong willingness to get to the hole and threfore made it to the free-throw line almost 250 times. Although that is only 35th in the league for guards, it does put him ahead of guys like Jason Terry and Jason Kidd. It also shows that mentally he's recovered from that horrific injury he suffered after crashing into Mark Madsen.

Aaaaa the injury. Now as seen in many of the comments as of late there are many readers who are apprehensive about the deal because of Ford's health. For me this is not really a concern. If an NBA player gets time in more than 70 games in a season, I consider him healthy. Like Ford said, he's been cleared. With a serious injury like the one he suffered I can't imagine a professional doctor giving clearance unless he/she was sure. I really do believe that TJ's healthy and until I hear otherwise I don't really factor this into the trade.

In the end Ford definitely is an nice addition to the team, I just think Charlie is a bigger loss. I stand by the fact that BC should have gotten more, and no, CASH does not count. How is cash useful? Sure it's an asset, but it is no help as against the cap, and as a fan we are highly unlikely to see any return. It is simple math, when team A gives up more value than team B, team A should be compensated. In my opinion that compensation should take the form of a basketball asset, be it in a player now or later. Not cash.

The other major concern I have about this deal is that when you take the loss of Charlie and add in what looks like the inevitable loss of Mike James, this once high-scoring Raptors team has a fairly large void to fill. Sure Ford averaged 12 point per game or so, but I don't think we are going to see a major rise in that number next season. I think Charlie is poised for 17 or so. Ford should compensate for this in the assists column but this team now needs to add a scorer. A SCORER?! Going into the off-season, the last thing I thought this team would need is a scorer. (Someone better be on the ringer with Fred Jones' agent. He would be a GREAT guy off the bench and could provide some instance offence. A decent shooter he can also get above the rim (he did win the Slam Dunk contest in 04) and could be a great sixth man.)

At the end of the day however, I don't think history is going to agree with me that this trade was slanted in favour of the Bucks. The reason? I think Charlie will regress as a player while playing for the Bucks. I am not proclaiming myself as some expert as to the workings of the Milwaukee franchise (for that matter on the Toronto franchise either) but I do know enough to say the following:

1. Terry Stotts is not a guy that really sets a fire under anyone's a** when required.

Although there is great debate as to Sam Mitchell's coaching ability the one thing you cannot argue with is that he gets his point across and he does it with minutes. On more than one occasion Mitchell would plunk Charlie on the bench and on an equal number of occasions Charlie would get the point. Mitchell relates to his players and was slowly getting to know what buttons to push (I say this was because so much of the roster is new). I am not sure Stotts and his coaching ways are going to have a similar effect. From what I know of him, he is not the greatest of motivators being more of an "X's and O's guy," and in Villanueva's case that is not a good thing.

2. Milwaukee is not exactly known as being one of North America's great cities.

Charlie is from the Big Apple, and Toronto as a city, is filled with things to do. It's international and is in the spotlight....at least more than Milwaukee. With less coverage, and less press I just have the feeling that Charlie is going to be less interested. I never thought that was going to be a concern here in Toronto due to the mass amounts of press (good or bad) and I actually think that Toronto was a perfect situation for Charlie to succeed. I do not however, think that is the case with his new squad.

3. The Bucks no longer have a player that will get in your grill (they traded him to us).

One of Ford's strongest attributes is his leadership ability. He truly is a floor general. He and Bosh will make a great tandem from a leadership standpoint. In many ways his role as a leader is one thing that gives me comfort in this deal. In fact this is the one part of the deal that made no sense to me from a Bucks' perspective. Who is the leader on that team now? Is it Redd's team? Simmons? Bogut? None of these guys are known for being leaders on or off the court except maybe Bogut who is too young still. It is this lack of leader that concerns me when it comes to Villanueva. If his coach won't force him to keep elevating his game, and there is no true leader on the hardwood, I think his chances for success are greatly reduced.

4. The criticism against Charlie is no more.

Charlie, in a very classy way, put all of his critics in their place last season. He took their draft day criticism to heart and it provided him the fire he needed to play hard everyday. As a result, the criticism seems to have dissipated. What are the consequences of that? Is the trade enough motivation to keep the ball rolling in terms of progression? Again I am skeptical.

Consequently, if Charlie does regress even a little, and Ford stays at a minimum consistent, then history will likely view the trade as fair. I think this is the likely result based on each of their situations and respective upsides. I guess the thing that just irks me the most about this deal is that it doesn't matter whether my prediction about the end result is right - the Raps should have walked away with more value. Therefore I guess the moral of the story is a simple one:

We didn't get equal value.

The saving grace I suppose?

We now have a starting PG and a pretty good one at that.

HOWLAND

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Comments

tj - charlie trade is still out. we will know if bc made a big mistake wit this move. charlie v. will again play with a chip on his shoulder. colangelo will be charlie's stephen smith this coming season perhaps for a long time.

by nike on Jul 5, 2006 10:31 AM EDT reply actions

I agree wholeheartedly with your piece. After the initial shock of the deal I have been able to realize that in the short term we are a better team, assuming Bargnani comes in and does what CV did last year. A true point guard will allow our offense to really get going, which should make up for the loss of CV's points. What really irks me though is this: How did we only get a guard for CV? I"m sure we could have done better, and it sure would have been nice to get a draft pick and/or young talent in return. Hopefully CV will go in the tank for the rest of his career and I won't have to overflow with disgust and anger every time I see him on tv (a-la Andre Iguodala). Unfortunately, I don't think that will be the case, and CV will in all likelihood haunt us for years to come.

by Rory Beck on Jul 5, 2006 10:36 AM EDT reply actions

I agree that perhaps we didn't get great value but we were not dealing from a position of strength. The Bucks GM had to be looking at our roster and knowing that we were desperate for a PG. Im sure BC asked for more but in the end had to make the best deal he could.

My question is when are they going to make use of this "cap room" that they keep talking about. The major FA's are gone. It would be nice to have seen the Raps add at least 1 good piece after giving up the 20th pick (Marcus Williams) to NY to dump Rose.

by Dan on Jul 5, 2006 10:40 AM EDT reply actions

Great article Howland.

After reading it I felt I little bit more comfortable with the trade, knowing what we got, and knowing what the bucks got. I didnt know about TJ's leadship abilities, but it sounds like he will be ready to take mike james places with leadership, and with bosh continuing his development, and the addition of rasho (who is a strong veteran, and I can only assume has some great leadership qualities after playing with duncan and co)

I also think that we GOT the extra value you were talking about in the fact that TJ is a PG. And more of a traditional pg at that. A dying breed. I bet you can name more good PF's or even 3/4 tweeners than you can pass first pg. (Nash, Kidd, Paul, Ridnour, im having a hard time thinking about any more pass first starting pg) Every year the hardest part of the all start team to pick is the forwards. Especially in the west. Duncan, KG, Brand, Gasol, Odom, Artest, nowitkzi, etc. Much easier t ogind a forward than a pg, and the extra value, in my opinion, is in the fact that TJ is a point guard.

by Scott on Jul 5, 2006 10:51 AM EDT reply actions

Thanks for bringing some closure to this debate (which continues to rage on various boards).

There are the technical basketball arguments surrounding the trade (e.g. big for a small), but I think there's another factor to be considered. As much as BC and others like to refer to players as "pieces", the human aspect to basketball fandom is important, too.

Charlie, for several reasons, captured the hearts of Toronto fans. Just one of the reasons was that he seemed to genuinely want to be here. He made a number of local appearances since the regular season ended (what was it, six months ago?), unlike, say, Chris Bosh. For insecure Canadians, this means a lot. Building brand loyalty is a tricky business, especially in a town of puckheads like Toronto. GM's mess with it at their peril. Of course, winning is the most important factor in growing the brand - so this move better pay off in that regard.

I'm not sure how much more could have been obtained from Milwaukee. This trade apparently grew out of discussions regarding Malgoire, and there certainly was a Charlie/Mo for Mags/Mo rumour for a while there. Why not Charlie for Mags/TJ? I'm sure BC would have tried this before getting Rasho, and clearly the Bucks weren't going for it.

by Andrew on Jul 5, 2006 11:45 AM EDT reply actions

Great debate - I'm loving it. (This is my first post.)

I like the trade... 3 reasons why:

1. We can't just be adding up PPG averages here. The raps will be a completely different team with a true pass first PG. If AB can shoot the ball like they say, when TJ drives, he'll have CB, AB and MoP as passing options who are all excellent shooters. I see a CB4s production going up even more this year with a real distributor.

2. We also have to factor in the laws of supply and demand. This is a business after all. Low supply of true point guards increases their value. Large supply of PF's who can get buckets but dissappear on D decreases their value. At the end of the day, its a win win - each team gets something it really needs.

3. As fine a guy as the Big Smoothie is, he really did dissappear for long stretches and look disinterested a lot. Big risk for a sophmore slump with this pup. He's got a new chip now - to prove the trade was a bad one. Hopefully that inspires for a full season. On the flip side, Ford appears to be a firecracker with numbers that are comparative to other solid PG's. He'll make the whole team better...

by Kooch on Jul 5, 2006 12:09 PM EDT reply actions

I agree with Howlands assessment of the trade. Charlie and TJ will both benefit their respective clubs, but Ford will be more effective for the Raps than CV3 would have been (or probably will be for the Bucks). Bottom line we'll be getting Bosh more touches in better spots. I wanted to comment also on the way Charlie handled his post draft criticism- when that happened my hopes were he would answer critics on the court, which he did, but lets remember he had many interviews were he called out his critics to apologize time and again. He handled himself alright in his rookie season, but there's a number of ways a player could of handled that and for CV3 i would have choosed the word 'classy'. Ford is known by Bosh and Mitchell (for the first time in Coach Sams tenure he won't have to agrue with the point gaurd about passing the ball!), and inspired his teammates when he battled back from unjury- Ford is not just a player who's capable of contributing more than ever but he's a leader and a real character guy.

by Blaker on Jul 5, 2006 12:43 PM EDT reply actions

It's tough to say what the end result of this deal will be. In all likelihood, the deal will be fair for both - we had too many 6'10" finesse forwards and Milwaukee needed one. I think when talking about pass-first guards, I think it's a seller's market and we got the best we could. Perhaps if BC tried to expand the deal we could have gotten more, but then we'd have to give more too.

The points about CV's future in Milwaukee is interesting. I think CV will average 15-20 pts., 8-10 rebounds, and 4-5 assists per game. He'll likely have the odd "explosion" for 40+ points because he seems to have that type of scoring talent. But, he does seem very laid back. Who knows.

I'm just glad we have a PG who is happy and excited to be here. I'm not sure that our team will improve considerably this year in terms of wins, but I think there will be improvement. One more year in the lottery should do it. Plus, I have a suspicion that BC is going to sign a lesser free agent (something like the Raja Bell signing) and then save his cap room for the trade deadline to land a few players. We don't have all of the information that Colangelo has, and I'm pretty sure he has some more ideas about what to do. I mean, he's dismantled and rebuilt teams a few times during his time in Phoenix. I'm just glad that we have a GM who's willing to take action, admit when he's wrong (i.e., Starbury), and do whatever is necessary to fix the problems.

As for future moves, I don't see us moving Mo'Pete right now - if he does go, I think it'll be at the trade deadline. Otherwise, I see us trying to sign him as a free agent (maybe $8-9M/season?). I also have a suspicion that Joey Graham may be on the way out unless he improves considerably this year.

by Hans on Jul 5, 2006 1:09 PM EDT reply actions

Why is everyone so willing to judge this trade before either player ever suits up for their new team. I still can't believe how much this trade has stirred up Raptor nation; Charlie V is not likely to become a perennial all-star in Toronto, Milwaukee, or for any other franchise. If he can maintain and strong work ethic then he should be an above average starter in this league, but so should TJ Ford. And recent history shows it is easier to find an athletic guy to play the 3/4 than it is to find a pass-first point guard. And with a roster that includes Bosh and Bargnani, I am very happy that the Raps have that pass-first point guard to run the show. The team may not score as much as last year, but then again no one expects this to be a complete team in 2006/7. We need at least one more lottery pick, some free agents to solidify the rotation and some time for the young guys to develop (especially Bargnani). Realistically I am looking towards 2007/8 as the season to crack the top 8 in the Eastern Conference, with a jump into the top 5 the year after. Having CV over Ford does not accelerate that timeline.

by Poppa Vlazo on Jul 5, 2006 1:19 PM EDT reply actions

With CV3 gone and in light of the prospect of losing Mike James I'm still not worried about scoring becuase I'm optimistic Mo Pete is ready to elevate his game further and handle a greater bulk of the load. Why?..
(1) No Vince, no Jalen. He starts the year as the starting swingman and is gaurenteed to get his touches. Getting rid of those two has been good for his game.
(2) Sam Mitchell. Mo knows how highly Sam thinks of him. Remember Kevin Oneil or any other Raptor coach for that matter, they just tried to plug Mo into a half court offence, hide him in the corner and spread the floor for VC to create. Sam will demand the most from Mo and a little more run and gun will only help Peterson (imagine how effective he could be on the Suns).
(3) TJ Ford- All Peterson needs to do is watch video of the way Redd and TJ went to work. If he does his homework and is able to re-create some of the success those two had Peterson will emerge as our second scoring option.
Mo Pete should come into this season in better condition and more confident than ever.

by Blaker on Jul 5, 2006 1:52 PM EDT reply actions

I don't think that scoring will be a problem. It's safe to expect Bosh to get a few more buckets a game (especially considering Mike James won't be there to randomly jack threes on his pick and roll). Rasho Nesterovic should be able to average 5-10 pts a game from a position we got nothing from last year. In addition, if AB pots at least 7 or 8 ppg (realistic assumption - 15 rookies last year acheived at least 7.5 ppg), then that's at least 15 ppg from the centre position - I'm not sure Arajuo and Woods got 15 points total last season!

Now, add the fact that TJ should be able to get his 10 or so. Also, consider him good for a few more assists because of his speed and running game (which we are going to play). Last but not least, consider the 'steve nash factor'. You know that commercial when it shows all the guys on PHX that scored career highs last year and then says "...he passed"? Well, given that the system could be similar, and given that Ford is a pass first PG, he could easily have a similar impact. Don't get me wrong - TJ Ford is no Steve Nash, the effect will not be nearly as dramatic, but it should be good for a few more points ppg.

If you add all this up with my lowball estimates, we've added 30 ppg this off season. That makes up for the 30 we lost with Charlie and Mike James. Now imaging that the higher ends of my estimates come true - we've replace Bonner's buckets as well, and stay one of the highest scoring teams in the NBA.

Do we need a scorer? I say not really. However, if we add a scoring two guard, we could be one of the top couple offensive teams in the league. Phoenix North could arrive sooner than anyone expected.

by raptorman on Jul 5, 2006 2:03 PM EDT reply actions

I see the trade from a slightly different angle - mitigating risks. What was the biggest risk for Toronto? With 8-10 SF/PFs on the roster, the biggest risk was that Calderon got punished night after night as the starting PG. Or (even worse), Calderon caught the injury bug again and the Raps were forced to start Andre Barrett every night with Darrick Martin to back him up.

You could argue now that the Raps have depth at all positions except for Center... and since there are only 6 teams that even have big centers (Miami, Houston, LA Clippers, Dallas, Milwaukee, NY Knicks), this is a minor problem compared to not having top-50 PG on your team like Toronto was facing.

I still think that Charlie V is a much better talent than TJ, and could definitely be an all-star once the current crop of top PFs gets old (Garnett, Duncan, Gasol, Dirk, etc.). The part of his game that I don't hear mentioned enough is his ability to pass on the fast break - which is exactly what the Raptors would be looking for in an up-tempo offence. Think of how valuable Boris Diaw is to Phoenix with his passing skills.

However, unless Milwaukee changes their game, there is a chance that CV becomes a John Wallace type of player (remember him?) -- unstoppable from 1 spot on the low block, but weak in all other areas.

by BC on Jul 5, 2006 2:06 PM EDT reply actions

Ford will make everyone better. Thus everyone will be averaging far better than their career avgs.
If we want to be like the suns then we go tthe right pg to do it.. nobody is faster. We will run and gun all year. And we got great shooters for that.

by Jimmy on Jul 5, 2006 2:43 PM EDT reply actions

Here's another angle, could we have gotten Ford for the number one pick? If so this trade can be judged in the future by whether AB or CV turns out to be a better player. If AB is a bust and CV turns out to be good, then then obviously we kept the wrong 4/5 with perimeter skills.

by Chris on Jul 5, 2006 5:38 PM EDT reply actions

ESPN writer John Hollinger had some stron comments about the CV for TJ trade. He basically calls Ford a good backup point guard. This is also a quote "But trading Villanueva for Ford? Sorry folks, I have to call 'em like I see 'em, and I see this one as being just astoundingly stupid."

Now Hollinger is a dufus. Anyone who reads his stuff can see he doesn't understand basketball and really wants to be a baseball writer. Hopefully he is wrong though cause the last thing the Raptors need is to be giving away talent.

by Dan on Jul 5, 2006 8:12 PM EDT reply actions

My two cents:

Mike James, former writer of the baseball abstract, mentioned three questions concerning trades:

1) What is our greatest weakness?
2) Who is the player who best addresses that weakness?
3) How can we get him?

Obviously, this isn't set in stone, but as a general approach, it's better to focus on what you get rather than what you give up. No question that CV is a player and will continue to be a player. We can only guess at how good he'll be. But the fact is we got one of the best young point guards in the game, who should only get better.

We should also remember that regardless of how well Charlie played, this is a team that won only 27 games last season, and with the exception of Bosh's thumb injury, this was basically a healthy team. In other words, the roster just wasn't good enough. Yes, CV will almost certainly get better, but was he the guy that was single handedly going to turn this team around? Probably not.

Having said all that, I will miss CV. He was an extremely versatile offensive player with his ability to handle the ball, post up, shoot the three and be sneaky on the offensive boards. He genuinely appreciated the city of Toronto and the Raptors franchise. I hope he has a great career. But if Ford turns out to be the player I think he can be, then this was a deal worth making.

by Skywalker on Jul 5, 2006 10:26 PM EDT reply actions

Mark my words, Howland, CV Smooth is gonna flourish in Milwaukee. Lots of good reasons why Smooth's gonna be missed but the biggest reason for me is the chemistry I saw between him and Bosh. They truly complimented each other and Smooth's excellent passing ability was most demonstrated in his nifty inside dimes to Bosh. I guarantee we'll be wondering "what if" like we did with VC and T-Mac in a few years.

Say what you will about Smooth's weaknesses but he was freakin' rookie and I don't think you emphasized that enough. He didn't just exceed expectations, he leapt and bounded over them.

Now he's going to a team with a big, banging center who is also an excellent passer. I believe Bogut and Smooth will be on more than a few highlights this season. Redd spreads the floor with his shooting too. Smooth is gonna start at the 4 where his defensive capabilities are better suited. As for Sam's motivational skills, I hardly think they're worthy of mentioning given the horrid way we closed out the season last year.

by Hen on Jul 5, 2006 10:37 PM EDT reply actions

Does anyone know what happened to Pape? Is he still in hospital?

by NeverNervousPervis on Jul 6, 2006 10:15 AM EDT reply actions

i reaaallly hope we sign anthony parker. This man can play.

by euroking on Jul 6, 2006 10:49 AM EDT reply actions

Ford IS basically a rookie. He played 55 games two years ago then didnt play for a year and a half. I'd say playing 2 full years at UConn would prepare someone better for a season than playing 55 games in the NBA then sitting out a year and a half.

by euroking on Jul 6, 2006 10:52 AM EDT reply actions

I wish BC would hurry up and make another move so I can read about and discuss something other than this trade. I'm already sick of it and there's nothing more to say about it but it's gonna get worked into the ground all the way til opening night and beyond. There will be nothing new to say about this until a year from now really wehn we're evaluating how the team did in 06-07.

Please sign Parker so we can go ape-shit on that for awhile..

by Josh on Jul 6, 2006 1:34 PM EDT reply actions

The rumours can officially die now... Marquis Daniels is set to become a Pacer. Damn, and the Mike James sign-and-trade sounded so promising!

by MattK on Jul 6, 2006 1:35 PM EDT reply actions

People, I think there are a lot of opinions being formed about TJ without any of us really having a chance to see him play (after this run at Texas). Here is a UTube link that shows some TJ highlights that should make all of us excited!

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=tj+ford&search_type=search_videos

by Listen to BC on Jul 6, 2006 2:05 PM EDT reply actions

what is colangelo waiting for ? sign eddie house . he got him for the suns. unless his contract prevents him from getting ex suns !

by nike on Jul 6, 2006 3:07 PM EDT reply actions

Top 10 Up and Coming Teams for this Year (from RealGM.com):

#4) Toronto Raptors

Whenever a team lands the top pick in the draft, it can be considered a godsend, but with the lack of depth or star power in last monthâ€™s draft, the future remains unclear for this up-and-coming franchise. Chris Bosh will serve as the teamâ€™s franchise player and is almost a lock for a long-term extension in the coming weeks. Bosh will be joined by former high school state rival and good friend T.J. Ford, who was acquired recently for Charlie Villanueva. Ford will provide the team with arguably its best starting pass-first point guard in team history. But the teamâ€™s long-term future hinges on the back of their top selection, Italian sharp shooter Andrea Bargnani. Bargnani will be given ample time to develop in the Raptors system without being rushed like most top picks are when they enter the league. With the veteran presence of Morris Peterson and the addition of hardnosed center Rasho Nesterovic, the Raptors may be a threat to make the playoffs in the East this season.

by Ustation on Jul 6, 2006 4:56 PM EDT reply actions

Lots of great thoughts on this topic...I'll add one final one before we put this to bed for a while as like Josh, I'm ready to move on.

I read Hollinger's piece and Chad Ford's chatwrap on ESPN.com today and here's my take:

Hollinger is a stats guy (and like Dan says, seems to pine more for baseball talk) who gives his analysis based on statistical info most of the time. But in these "who won, who lost" scenarios, like mock drafts a month before, it's just too early to say for sure who "wins" therefore it amounts to pure speculation. This trade will be judged down the road as we all know. That being said, I do think there are fundamental errors in these "experts" takes on the trade RIGHT NOW.

First and foremost, these "experts" are the same ones who said that Colangelo took a huge risk and grossly overpaid to sign Nash in Phoenix. Remember? All I read was "how can Phoenix sign a player that old to such a long deal when he's small, has injury issues and plays a style not condusive to a lengthy career?" Two MVP trophy's later it seems that's all been forgotten.

Yes Colangelo is taking a bit of a risk...but what trade isn't at face value? While it's highly unlikely, Araujo now in his more comfortable Utah environment, may turn into a 10 and 8 guy while Humpheries doesn't see the court!! UNLIKELY...but possible.

Secondly - I think Ford will improve everyone else, just like some of you have alluded to and is simply a better fit for the Raptors, something Hollinger and co. don't really get into. Sure sometimes teams give up a better player in trades, but sometimes you need to to get a better fit. Look at the Knicks. On paper they have a team of "better players" (especially the backcourt) yet we all know how successful they've been. I simply was never convinced that Charlie was going to be an effective 3 in the league...especially on the defensive end and therefore was never going to be a great fit beside Bosh (although not sure I believe Chad Ford's "not fitting in because he was hard to coach" stuff.) In any event, we'll see down the road how this one plays out.

Speaking of risks though, how does everyone feel about the Anthony Parker rumours? We'll be talking more about it tomorrow along with our summer-league piece but is he not a risk? I mean, this is someone who's had chances to stick in the NBA before and couldn't! Talk about a European invasion...the Raps have gone from singing "Born in the USA" to "Back in the USSR!"

by Franchise on Jul 6, 2006 5:52 PM EDT reply actions

Chad Ford of ESPN chimes in on the deal

sal (thunder bay): Who won in the TJ Ford - Villeneuva trade? Do you see the Raps as playoff contenders? Thanks.

Chad Ford: Milwaukee -- and I'm not a big fan of Villanueva. I understand why Toronto traded him. They were stacked at his position, wanted to give more minutes to their No. 1 pick Andrea Barganani and, just as we predicted on draft night, stories are beginning to surface that Villanueva wasn't the easiest guy in the world to coach or get along with. So the Raptors traded him when his value was high. What I don't understand was trading him, straight up, for Ford. Ford did not have a great year last season. I think he's lost some of his speed -- the one thing that gave him a chance of being a good starting point guard. He can't shoot and his spinal injury makes him a medical risk. I know the Raptors were desperate for a point guard who pushed the ball -- but I think they overpaid for Ford. Then again, that seems to be the theme of free agency.

by Dan on Jul 6, 2006 6:00 PM EDT reply actions

I am a bit worried about t his europen invastion. I get the feeling with both BS and gerhdino (sp?) we are trying way to much to find the good players form Europe. And as much as there have been sucessfull European in the NBA, there have been many many more who have crashed and burned. I suppose the difference is that euros who we have/going to signed are all veterans who we are signing on what they have done, and not the "potential" like most are are signed. But still, it just seems that we are takign a big risk with all of these players who are unproven in the nba, and will need time like a rookie, to adjust to a different game.

by Scott on Jul 6, 2006 7:17 PM EDT reply actions

If you add this Antony Parker deal that's a CHUNK of our salary cap gone. Quote me if I'm wrong, but I believe he was asking btw. 10-12 mil for 3 yrs (according to draftexpress)? Is he worth that much? Maybe that is the reason why we're not signing any FA because he might turn into the real deal. I'm sure Franchise will break it down, but he seems proven like AB. For some reason, I would not like to play Full Tilt Texas Hold Em with BC. He always has an Ace up his sleeve.

by DJ JMJ on Jul 6, 2006 9:50 PM EDT reply actions

The cap money has to be spent somewhere, so why not for the consensus best player in Europe for the last few years? It's actually not much money at all when you look at the gross overpaying of FAs throughout the league. Scalabrine makes 3 or 4 mil a year for godsakes. And this guy looks like he could earn that contract and then some.

So many are busy wondering, "who are the Raps gonna sign to be their starting 3?" I say nooooooobody!!!.

I think they have their starting SF already and his name is Joey Graham. The moves made to get Garba, Tucker and Humphries and the possible acquisition of Parker and House may not net a clear-cut starting player. But what may emerge is a deep bench of skilled players to throw into the swing positions and support (or supplant if necessary) Graham as he gets his opportunity to develop. I don't include Bargs in that list because imo and from what I've read he's being developed into a 4/5.

This is what I think today. Tomorrow I'll deny it all and make up a new theory...

by Josh on Jul 6, 2006 11:17 PM EDT reply actions

If Anthony Parker comes to Toronto, that will be a great move for us. He's exactly the type of proven leader and winner that we need to balance our young roster. Also, he fits a need perfectly and is probably a better option for us than any of the NBA FA's still available. He would contend for a starting spot at 2, with Peterson moving to the 3. On the other hand, he might be more valuable being the primary option on the second unit. If Joey Graham was the starter is this example, it would be because we're spreading out our offensive firepower across the 48 minutes. Parker could then play the same role Stackhouse played for Dallas.

If we could also get House cheaply, he could be another solid addition. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens on the 12th.

by JYD on Jul 7, 2006 11:33 AM EDT reply actions

Yet another ESPN analyst declaring this trade a disaster.

Charlie Villaneuva: Actually, this wasn't a tough omission -- I just wanted to comment on the Villanueva-T.J. Ford trade. Disregard Ford's scary spinal cord problems, that he can't shoot to save his life, that he's a free agent two years earlier than Villanueva, even that he lost crunch-time minutes to Charlie Bell last season. Again, I want you to disregard everything in that sentence. From a pure basketball standpoint, since when is a young point guard worth as much as a young power forward who can rebound and shoot 3s? When has that EVER been the case? How fast did the Bucks' front office say yes to this trade? 0.79 seconds? 1.2 seconds? Did they say, "Hold on, we'll discuss this and call you back in a few hours," then hang up and start pouring champagne on one another? If somebody made this deal in my fantasy league, I would have protested it.

by Dan on Jul 7, 2006 1:19 PM EDT reply actions

All I can say is Ford and Barnani better play well enough in their first season to make us forget about CV and James of BC is going to have some explaining to do. Like who was actually making the moves in Pheonix.

by Dan on Jul 7, 2006 1:28 PM EDT reply actions

Anthony Parker's a guy I've been hearing about for several years, and it would be interesting to see if he can really make a go of it in the NBA. I'm not sure he's worth $4 million a year to find out, but he's probably at least as good as Flip Murray.

I saw Bill Simmons' analysis of the Ford/CV trade, and while I like his work as much as the next guy, I think he went overboard on this one. I know the whole "you don't trade big for small" argument, which seems more like a cliche than a real argument. But the fact is, as well as CV played last year, the Raps went 27-55. One thing TJ Ford has done in his career is win; high school, college, and Milwaukee (especially during his rookie season). Let's see what happens before rushing to judgment.

On the plus side, Bargnani and Graham both had solid outings in the Raps' first summer league game. Is it safe to say that Bargnani will approximate Charlie's production from last season?

by Skywalker on Jul 7, 2006 7:44 PM EDT reply actions

No, it's not safe to say that. It's one summer league game. I'm as hopeful as anyone that Bargnani will be be good now and great later, but there's still a lot of proving to be done. I don't need to remind everyone that Hoffa once got 18 rebounds in a summer league game, do I? He did have 10 fouls too, but whatever.

by JYD on Jul 7, 2006 10:59 PM EDT reply actions

In BC I Trust. This was one of the biggest moves the raptors organization has done (call it a tie when CB4 signs for $loot$). We all know BC has been groomed for this and is proven. A huge change of the past. He is well connected & respected in the NBA circle. I'm feeling a positive vibe starting from the top down where it should all start.

BC did say he wants the Raptors to be a model franchise for the new NBA. Welcome to the International/Toronto Raptors. In my opinion we have far better eye's for player talent for international players then we ever did. However I do believe that complete busts happen which is a fact in the NBA; I just don't think this will be happening on our team anymore. It seems we are going after the best of the best international players with some professional experience. As for Anthony Parker after watching live what he did against the Raps in the preseason game & topping it off with the game winner with Mo guarding him. I was impressed & felt he should be playing in the NBA for some team. Just happens we are in need of that type of player. If our staff feels they fit our team needs & are better then what is out there then I don't see why not.

As for the trade of CV for Ford. I think Bargnani was a influence & I feel the fans will know why after his first year. We still needed a true point guard. My question is you think BC didn't discuss with other members of the staff & Mr. Franchise CB4 himself? I wonder what CB4 response was or would be in regards to his opinion of the pre-trade & if he liked it or not? This is CB4's team. BC is building a team around CB4 and has addressed some of what CB4 was requesting. It has been known that CB4 was impressed when we got BC & he felt like we were very serious about winning in T.O. I feel that BC will change the game as all the best usually do.

by the claw for life on Jul 8, 2006 10:24 PM EDT reply actions

I am not a raptors fan, i don't even live in the States. Seems all of you Raptors fans gone euroleague crazy with these proposed Euro transfers but
make no mistake, Bargnani for now is just a good young player, nothing extraordinary. Can move well, giant firt step, shoots the 3 like SG (like most European big men) BUT IT IS A CRIME TO TRAIN HIM AS A PF/C! Many have tryed that in Benneton and failed. The kid is born for the SF position. He is not able to play in the paint no matter how strong he gets. Gorbajosa is an amazing player. Give him two years in the NBA to adjust his style of play and you have a star, but noone can be compared to Anthony Parker. You must prey for your team to sign him. Parker is the ultimate basketball player. He can do everything on the court with one downside, there are times that he seems as basketball does not motivate him enough. He is the guy, europes MVP that with no reason 3 years ago quit basketball for 6 months. He is the guy that some times dissapears in the court for no reason, but when things get tough you have never seen anything like him! Trust me.

by Earnang on Jul 12, 2006 5:27 AM EDT reply actions